/lit/ - Literature

>there are people who pride themselves in not reading books at all

>there are people who're less troubled than us and who don't read books at all

It's probably a complete waste of time anyway.

>>4698552
>There are people who would ask for a books autograph

>There are pride who don't book people at read.

>there are people who post threads about people who don't even read books on a board about books.

>>4698562

Sometimes people write novels and they just be so wordy and so self-absorbed. I am not a fan of books. I would never want a book's autograph. I am a proud non-reader of books.

>>4698571
absolutely disgusting

>>4698570
>there were Mark Twains that were severely depressed and who both read and wrote books

>posting on 4chan when we could be reading books

>>4698601
>implying anyone here actually reads books

>>4698568
to be fair i was driving by in WRONG mode and it hit me. this wasn't incorrect. wrong but all the sources lined up. my cold contrarian heart shattered under the pressure of the exosystem i stabbed at for so long with my precise shards of taxonomy and empirical data. the people who can't even read don't get me, and yet i am overcome by the simple obstinacy of those is my immediate circumstance. there are people who don't read books, and are proud of it.

>>4698609
>there are people who don't read books
This is fine.
>and are proud of it
This is not fine, but not because it's about not reading; pride is foolishness for whatever reason.

>>4698608
>implying people on /lit/ have the ability to read

>>4698633
This, just because we can write well enough to state our opinions it doesn't mean we can read.

>>4698631
>>there are people who don't read books
>This is fine.

>being tolerant of plebs

>>4698633
>>4698635
I completely agree with these people, even though I have no idea what they said because I can't read.

>>4698633
>>4698635
>>4698643

>>4698631
>pride is foolishness for whatever reason

>>4698670
Are you referring to the bad wording and uncertain meaning or the disapproval of pride?

>>4698694
the latter

>>4698664
>tfw someone posts a screencap of your post
It's times like these that makes the job worth doing for five dollars.

>Pride is ok and often unavoidable.
>Expression of pride is jackassery.

>>4698722
>implying you're not the wealthiest man in Ethiopia

>>4698730
Exactly, I don't need all these five dollars but I do it anyway, for these occasional moments of satisfaction.

>>4698700
What's good about pride, then?

>>4698795
I would agree with
>>4698728

not reading any books is better than reading bad ones.

>>4698563

Everything is a waste of time. Sometimes it's just wasting time in a more interesting way.

books are for nerds and are shit
git fucked

>>4698839
...elaborate?

All of us here probably started out with "bad" books (for me it was Goosebumps). But at least they're a gateway to better books.

No books is just...no books.

do we even need books anymore

I mean I read a little.

im honestly just wondering

Reading is for gaylords, I'd rather smoke weed.

Can the mods please delete this /v/ thread rather than banning me eight times for saying kike? Christ.

God, I keep fucking meaning to read Gravity's Rainbow.

>there are people who have never read a book, including ones included in school assignments
>these people have social lives and no problem getting laid
>meanwhile, plenty of well-read individuals will live their entire lives alone

What's the point?

>>4698977
reading twilight type stuff your whole life is like listening to "barbie girl" type stuff your whole life

subjectivation, etc.

>>4699026

Personal satisfaction.

>there are people who read only fiction

>>4699046
>you will never be that qt gril on the right

>>4699026
and most importantly

>everything you learned will ultimately become forgotten

I'm fine with that

>>4698557
These are the ones that truly scare me.

>>4699046
"Non-fiction is for the dull, the uninitiated, and the unimaginative."

-Mark Twain

>>4699046
>in the current society at least they are reading books
>nope
>lets burn them at the stake for reading

I dont read books, how do i into books without becoming a sleepy head :3

>>4699067
this is the thought that kills me most, the part that seriously haunts me.

shallow people have shallow thoughts and lie without guilt and live without care and at the end of the day they have more to look back on than people who do things like sit in a room and stare at words printed on a piece of paper. It's like theyre gifted better lives

I haven't read a book of my own volition (as in not for a class) in a little over a year, I browse /lit/ for the occasional philosophy thread. Between wikipedia and talking to people I've learned enough to be conversant, have a good discussion.

Why is it shocking when people don't read books? It's a hobby. I could make a thread
>there are people who don't program for fun
but I would be laughed right out of it. Why is it not OK that I don't share your hobby?

>>4699239
Literature is an art which expands your knowledge and critical thinking skills.

>>4699240
Programming is an art which expands your reasoning and critical thinking skills

>>4699243
>Programming is an art
Shit prose.

>>4698563

Not really. I guess if you read the wrong things. Like if you read a book every two days until you exhausted the paranormal romance section of your local bookstore, that would be wasted time. But if you read science, history, mathematics, good literature, it can only make you a better person. It's education.

Stupid people are happy and stubborn and confident, but what good is that if they wrong about everything? Being stupid is not something to be proud of and "street smarts" only gets you so far.

>>4699251
It really is though.

>>4698563
even people who don't read books, read something. even if you're a successful businessman, you probably spend that time reading reports or news or statistics (i'm using general terms because "businessman" could mean so many things) rather than fiction. but you're still reading and bettering yourself.

>>4699259
>not getting the joke

>>4699259
How can it be an art if its quality is defined by objective measures of performance?

>>4699274
Who are you to define what is, and what isn't art?

>>4699274
It's not though. Performance is one way to measure the quality of a program, but no serious programmer would consider it the only or even the most important measure of quality. Communicative power, extensibility, and elegance all factor into, and are more important than, calculations per second.

Your question makes as much sense as saying "how can writing be an art if its quality is defined by objective counts of words".

>>4699277
It seems to me that art is generally subjectively defined. Music, Lit, Painting, Photography, Architecture (somewhat), are all mostly open to interpretation/judgement. If you like a certain book and I don't, there's not much I can do to tell you that it's objectively bad.
However, with programming.... if a program runs slowly, is difficult to update, etc... then it's clearly not good.
I suppose you could say that interface design is something of an art, but not the the extent that poetry is. It's still there for utility, not aesthetics.

>>4699282
>Communicative power,
What does that mean?
>extensibility,
is fairly objective
>and elegance
You might have a point here. "Brevity is the soul of wit", as they say. I suppose other programmers might appreciate the cleverness or aesthetic quality of your code, but they're not really the audience it's meant for...

>>4699310
But there's objective criteria for poor quality in books as well. Anyone can look at a 8th grade essay on why Holden Caulfield was cool and phonies stink and see, clearly, that it's bad writing. Non-intentional failure of language mechanics, stilted dialogue, and Mary Sue characters are all objective indicators of poor literature just as bad performance is indicative of a poor program. Likewise there are indicators of excellence in a program that are subjective. Some people live and die by object oriented programming while others think functional programming in more elegant. Some people think metaprogramming is a tar pit while others think it's an incredibly powerful tool.

>>4699326
>Communicative power
clarity of meaning of code, does it communicate its purpose, is it concise, these are often at odds as well, there's a tension between fully articulating an idea and miring your reader in too many details

>is fairly objective
eh, fair enough. Some would argue that limiting extensiblity is something that needs to happen sometimes, when and where extensibility is needed and when it's cumbersome is subjective, but I'll admit people tend to agree.

>You might have a point here. "Brevity is the soul of wit", as they say. I suppose other programmers might appreciate the cleverness or aesthetic quality of your code, but they're not really the audience it's meant for...
Maybe in the past, but it's pretty well acknowledged among programmers of modern languages that your code is meant for humans first and machines second. It's a fact that code is read far more than it's written and many languages have evolved with this in mind. Modern interpreted languages acknowledge it by bending syntax to more human-readable constructs, lisps react by removing syntax. Most programmers write code with the clear understand that they have a human audience. And that's just production code, there are a whole range of non-commercial activities that programmers engage in where the entire point is to communicate something pithy or clever to human readers. Look at the example of obfuscation contests or code golf

>>4699046
'Non-fiction' will always have some fiction mixed in with it.

>>4698557
>this is one of the musicians /mu/ adores

>>4698552

>>4698570
If that really is Twain's quote then he's a fucking retard.

>>4699351
wut?

>>4699357
Kanye West described himself as a "proud non-reader of books" as he was promoting his new book.

>>4699362
Nice chutzpah.

>>4699362
Ahh, well that's stupid, but I mean is it really necessary that entertainers read books for fun? Does it really effect the music in a meaningful way?

>>4699345
>Some people live and die by object oriented programming while others think functional programming in more elegant.
But the program isn't there for its aesthetic quality. It's there for function.
>clarity of meaning of code, does it communicate its purpose,
I would say that's mostly objective
>Most programmers write code with the clear understand that they have a human audience.
Yes, but the goals are still objective... You want someone to easily interpret your code and be able to add on to it, right?

To further my argument, I'll post a quote that I recently came across:

>"The truly creative mind in any field is no more than this: A human creature born abnormally, inhumanly sensitive. To him... a touch is a blow, a sound is a noise, a misfortune is a tragedy, a joy is an ecstasy, a friend is a lover, a lover is a god, and failure is death. Add to this cruelly delicate organism the overpowering necessity to create, create, create - - - so that without the creating of music or poetry or books or buildings or something of meaning, his very breath is cut off from him. He must create, must pour out creation. By some strange, unknown, inward urgency he is not really alive unless he is creating." -Pearl S. Buck
I know, as an artist, that I have only made good work when under the influence of powerful emotions. It's the burden that, it seems, all artists bear. Could the same be said of programmers?

>>4699400
>But the program isn't there for its aesthetic quality. It's there for function.
So what? A lot of great writing, maybe most, was produced for some function. Sometimes the function is in the work itself, Uncle Tom's Cabin was supposed to be social commentary, and sometimes the work is a biproduct of it's functions, i.e. writers write as an emotional outlet. And conversely some code is produced simply for the pleasure of producing it. It doesn't need to serve any function.

>I would say that's mostly objective
You've clearly never worked on a programming project involving multiple people. what constitutes clarity, and what should and shouldn't be sacrificed to achieve it, it a topic of near religious conviction among programmers and you'll almost never find two that totally agree.

>Yes, but the goals are still objective... You want someone to easily interpret your code and be able to add on to it, right?

And to goals of much good writing is objective. Social commentary, emotional release, communication of meaning.

>>"The truly creative mind in any field is no more than this: A human creature born abnormally, inhumanly sensitive. To him... a touch is a blow, a sound is a noise, a misfortune is a tragedy, a joy is an ecstasy, a friend is a lover, a lover is a god, and failure is death. Add to this cruelly delicate organism the overpowering necessity to create, create, create - - - so that without the creating of music or poetry or books or buildings or something of meaning, his very breath is cut off from him. He must create, must pour out creation. By some strange, unknown, inward urgency he is not really alive unless he is creating." -Pearl S. Buck
>I know, as an artist, that I have only made good work when under the influence of powerful emotions. It's the burden that, it seems, all artists bear. Could the same be said of programmers?

I disagree with the idea that all artists require the "influence of powerful emotions" to produce good work and I know why you think that's an acceptable criterion for demarcating art from other human endeavors. I would also argue that many, maybe most, of our most talented programmers have a deep emotional connection with their craft. Maybe I don't produce a particular type of code when I'm feeling a certain way, but I can say with certainty that the process of programming and of reading certain programs evokes emotions in me as powerful as any work of art. I don't think you would question the emotional element involved in programming if you had experienced the sense of transcendence and grandeur that the composition of otherwise simple and inert components into something elegant and amazingly complex that is perhaps at least present and perhaps necessary in great code.

>>4699369
>does it really effect the music...
affect, retard.

>>4698631

>pride is foolishness for whatever reason

>>4699207
>being this much of a fucking pleb

you aren't envious of them, you are one of them. you disgust me.

>>4699026
>talking to people
>a good thing

They're all so fucking stupid and shit, why in the fuck would I want to talk to or have sex with them?

>inb4dumbassesgetmadandthrowbuzzwords

>>4699491
EAT BUZZWORDS SCUM!

>>4699400
> But the program isn't there for its aesthetic quality. It's there for function.

One could say the same thing about the work of an architect, yet there are few who would dispute that architecture qualifies as "art".

there are people who read less than one book a week and still call themselves readers

>>4699433
>And to goals of much good writing is objective. Social commentary, emotional release, communication of meaning.
As long as you're subscribing to my premise ('art is subjective'), you'll lose the debate.

If you want to change the contention to one of... innovation. (?) You'll have a good argument. However, that's not my area of expertise.

>>4699520
That's why I put a qualifier in my claim of architecture as art [go look].

>>4699491
this anon gets it.

>there are people who don't read a book a day

>>4699026
>be me
>only read casually
>have active social life
>get laid whenever I want
>start to read more
>books influence me
>can no longer relate to my friends
>slowly lose social life
>alone and happier than I've ever been

>>4699026
>>4699569
this is a false dichotomy

>>4699026
You chose enlightenment over conformity, nigga. Be proud.

I- I want to but I don't really know what to read. Also I read really slow ;_;

>>4699565
>70 pages per hour.

>>4699569
i'm glad you shed your normalfaggotry

>>4698552
>there are people who don't read books at all

That's not really a problem, just let the proles be.

>there are people on /lit/ who don't read books at all

This is what really confuses me.

>>4699662
>implying we don't just copy and paste from wiki summaries

>be teaching assistant for a while
>helping out pretty good history teacher, he's teaching 17-18 year olds british history
>quite a strict dude, other teachers send bratty kids from other year groups to his class to be dealt with
>one time like five of them file in escorted by other teacher
>teacher visibly pissed because they interrupt his lesson and he can't be bothered to punish them right now
>tells them to get out books and read until the end
>all get books out (children's fiction)
>not a single fucking kid reads a fucking word
>watch the closest one to me, rising annoyance
>he flips through the pages over and over
>taps the spine on the desk, spins the book around, examines the corners of the cover
>eventually holds it open in one place and just stares into space for the remainder of the hour
>actual disgust
>get over myself and do some damn teaching assistance
>lesson eventually ends
>17-18yos pack up and leave
>teacher gives stern words to kids
>they start to leave
>that kid marks his fucking place

>there are people who dont even lift

>there are people who only read genre fiction

>>4699662
This is 4chan. You don't have to like anything about a board to go and shitpost in it.

>>4699697
thanks for the illumination

>there are people who don't explore the world of literature and cinema in equal measure

>>4699589
Go to the lit wiki and pick something that interests you.

>>4699693
>there are people who only read fantasy

>>4699699
>there are people who get dubs

>be me
>be enthralled by books
>always wonder about those people that can seemingly bring up quotes form respected books for any situation
>grow up
>realize that they simply only memorized five or six quotes that they can turn to any situation as need be
>if they do in fact have a quote that fits the situation perfectly, it's because they knew it was coming and memorized the quote specifically for this situation

>tfw no photographic memory and the ability to quote all of Shakespeare's works

>>4699716
I hate these people:

you're so enthralled with their seemingly obvious intelligence, but after 2 weeks you realize that they pull up the same 3 quotes, constantly, even if the situation just barely fits the quote. Then the mask comes off and you realize that they're as shitty as everyone else with an extra-dose of vain.

>>4699716

>tfw all that space in my head filled with spongebob quotes I could have filled with Shakespeare

WINNIE HUT JUNIOR!?

>>4699728

I think the realization that everyone is as stupid as you are is when you can start calling yourself an adult.

>there are people who aren't suicidal

>>4699747

>there are people who know what it is like to fall asleep in the arms of the person they love

>Degenerates who do absolutely nothing productive for hours but staring at paper and think they are somehow superior

>>4699755

>Degenerates who do absolutely nothing productive for hours but speak words to others and think they are somehow superior

>>4699752
>there are people who see value in chemicals

>>4699757
yeah ok, geekboy

>>4699747
>tfw my best friend says "Well I don't know what it's like to be depressed, but..."
>tfw can't begin to comprehend what such a world view looks like

>>4699760

>There are people who don't put value on things that generate chemicals that stimulate their pleasure centers of their brain

>>4699763
make him read Zapffe

'So there he stands with his visions, betrayed by the universe, in wonder and fear. The beast knew fear as well, in thunderstorms and on the lion’s claw. But man became fearful of life itself – indeed, of his very being. Life – that was for the beast to feel the play of power, it was heat and games and strife and hunger, and then at last to bow before the law of course. In the beast, suffering is self-confined, in man, it knocks holes into a fear of the world and a despair of life. Even as the child sets out on the river of life, the roars from the waterfall of death rise highly above the vale, ever closer, and tearing, tearing at its joy. Man beholds the earth, and it is breathing like a great lung; whenever it exhales, delightful life swarms from all its pores and reaches out toward the sun, but when it inhales, a moan of rupture passes through the multitude, and corpses whip the ground like bouts of hail.'

>>4699760
>there are people who have never experienced psychedelics

>>4699769
>implying I haven't done more acid than you've done meals

>>4699764

>That story

I'm so fucking glad I'm not THAT pathetic yet

Passer-by here who accidentally thought I clicked on /int/ and doesn't read books.

Ask me anything.

>>4699810
why

>>4699821
Because:
>Have to sit down stationary and in silence
>Books are usually boring for the first 60% until they get good
>Takes forever to read a book, like an entire week plus
>Non-social activity
>Feel like I'm wasting my life and could be doing something more productive
>No one else cares about books anymore so it wouldn't make conversation

>>4699826
>Feel like I'm wasting my life and could be doing something more productive
so you never do anything not productive? never have fun?
>Have to sit down stationary and in silence
shit next they might take away your fedora and cape!!!!
>Takes forever to read a book, like an entire week plus
read faster noob it takes like 5 hours to read a 300 page book
>Books are usually boring for the first 60% until they get good
read better books
>Non-social activity
so is masturbating but you still do that
>No one else cares about books anymore so it wouldn't make conversation
you have shit friends

>tfw can't read fiction anymore
>try reading whatever classic /lit/ tells me to read
>this is boring I wanna get back to my history books and medieval philosophy
>I might as well play video games

>>4699834
What was the point of typing this.

>>4699843
force yourself anon
you must be trained to read classics you can't just jump in with war and peace and expect not to be bored
start off with small, easy reads of the 20th century e.g. great gatsby, of mine and men, catcher in the rye

>>4699844
to show that books are superior to your larping

>>4699843
Give me a good starting place for medieval history. Just recently I've become really interested in the time.

>>4699846
I wasn't the guy you were responding to. I just think your response was retarded and a waste of time. It seemed like you actually care about some random guy's attitude towards reading.

>>4699864
Not the guy you're responding to, but isn't your response retarded and a waste of time? It seems like you actually care that this guy actually cares about some random guy's attitude towards reading.

I'll end the chain here by saying that I know my post is retarded and a waste of time.

>>4699848
any recommendations?

>there are people who read GRRM and believe that it is good

>there are people who read Murakami and believe that it is good

>there are people who read DFW and believe that it is good

>>4698552
my best friend hasn't read a book since high school, but is a very good buddy and in September I'll be the best man at his wedding.
OP, reading doesn't make you better than others

>>4698570
Yeah he has, you can't use a computer if you are illiterate. If you are literate you can function perfectly fine without reading books.
Checkmate atheists.

>reading the actual books instead of meta-literature

>>4699932

>>4699974
I'm one of those who believe that he is good.

>>4700055
You're alright, anon.

>>4699779
>yet

>>4699239
Programming is generally not /lit related.

>>4699207
>the part that seriously haunts me

Why ? Anything is gonna disappear at some point. What you get from books is (mostly) good while it lasts, that's more than enough. If you think that people who read spend all their lifes in a room doing nothing then you need to read more. The majority of the most well-known scientists, political leaders and a good deal of successful businessmen where avid readers.

>>4699400
Your quote states the romantic idea of an artist. Earlier writers or painters could well have disagreed. When he was about twenty years old, the French poet Paul Valéry was annoyed to feel miserable because he had fell in love with some random girl. He decided, to get rid of emotions and dedicate himself to intellectual pursuit (legend as it that his "conversion" happened over one single night).
Now you can believe the story or not, but it's well-known that Valéry's poetry shifts to intelligence the romantic emphasis on feelings. And he's a more than decent poets by most standards.

Also

>be a programmer
>has heavy code due tomorrow
>only sixteen hours to put out one thousand lines of code
>prepare for a sleepless night
>codefest begin
>that earnest sense of urgency
>all those technical hurdles
>eight hours straight between despair and ecstasy
>that absolute hopelessness when code doesn't work
>that insane joy when found out elegant solution
>that even bitter hopelessness when it still doesn't work
>that heavy breath of relief when minor correction finally makes it work
>that nadir of the soul when stuck for one hour in unsolvable problem
>that sense of having to give up
>that miraculous last-hope solution
>those delightful last three hours of code-honing
>that stubborn perfectionism when times runs short and the last step needs to be completed
>sixteen hours finish
>finally turn up the code
>full of minor errors because completed in a hurry
>but man what a pull-off
>never been so proud of myself in entire life

And finally

>mfw my manager say I wasn't under the influence of strong emotions

>>4699716
>>4699716
From my own experience, it's closer to about a hundred quotes, and you never remember more than four or five of them at any given moment. But somehow, the human brain being what it is, they often spring into mimnd at exactly the right moment.

Also
>thinking that quoting is only about memory

It's about thinking about what you read and pondering the meaning of these quotes. Any real reader will be able to make a personal comment following the quote.

>>4699955

>Implying there were computers in Mark Twain's time

>>4700957
Isn't Babbage before Twain? I might be completely wrong on that...

>>4699955
>Yeah he has, you can't use a computer if you are illiterate.
Yes you can.

>one friend prides himself on being a big reader
>read a dozen YA so far this year and thinks he's amazing
>he's the best I have so I'm going to ask him to be my beta-reader

>there are people who spend their whole lives reading and never think to write

I haven't read a book in over 10 years. Is my brain permanently damaged, or can I get my reading comprehension, reading speed and memory back by reading again?

>>4698552

In my group of friends, I have one bro who reads and is actually the person I get most book recommendations from. The rest literally have refused to pick up a book as long as the could help it since high school english.

Our faces when

>there are people who spend their whole lives reading and never think to write

There has to be more people like that. Everyone thinks they can write when 99% of people out there really are shit at it. I'd rather not shit up the market with my ramblings and become a good reader instead.

>>4700331
Another programmer here, this story rings very true. It's what got me into programming in the first place; there is absolutely nothing like the immense feeling of accomplishment you get when finding the one elegant solution that had been eluding you.

>>4701080
No, it is not.

Yes, you can.

Does /lit/ use a specific program to read their e-books in? should I just use the one included in calibre

>>4699046
I've read non-fiction for school stuff
Frankly it's boring, when I was younger and blazed through about every book in my house, I loathed the idea of eventually having to read the non-fiction

>>4701836
>not reading real books

pfft amateur

>he hasn't read War and Peace

>>4702041
I'm poor and my bookcase is nearly full, I can't afford to read as a major hobby

>>4702392
dude. library.

don quixote contains all the fortunes and misfortunes of those who read books. worth the read.

>>4702425
You're a faggot. There is no (relevant) difference between ebook and paper.

>>4702485
i may be a faggot, but if you are so poor and still decided to buy an ebook thingy, despite libraries letting you borrow books for free, you are a complete idiot and deserve your poverty.

>>4698552
I know right....it's disheartening

>>4702485
Ones on paper....and ones on an e book...-facepalm-

>There are people who think they are smart because they read books

I actually come here to talk about how I don't read books

Waste of time when you can read summaries or watch the movie

>>4703007

>>4703016
He's right, though.

>>4703017
You people break my heart.

>>4703007
Dude, reading isn't supposed to be effective.

>>4699348
And viceversa.

>>4703007
Why are you alive?

It's a waste of time when you know you're gonna die, you can just read the summary, you born, you live and you die.

Now go kill yourself.

>>4703064
Nice try retard, but I'm not a book

>>4703007
pleb scum

>>4699026
>absorb self in books and learning
>realise I am trying to view the world through the pages and through others' lives, isolating myself, unable to simply just be and live my own life

>>4703075
How would you know? You don't read them.

>>4702433
That's on my wishlist, and its really cheap on Amazon, it's a really thick book though and I have lots of other things to read at the moment so I've held it off, though there'd be no harm in purchasing it now and keeping it for when I can read it.

>>4699255
>Stupid people are happy
/thread
What else matters now?