/lit/ - Literature

>>4667132
4chan.org/v/

>>4667140

Stop being so butthurt that people are playing games instead of reading books. Most people who lived before video games weren't even literate anyway.

BADFAITHA

I know there's a couple of books that have a 100% negative outlook (like Grossman's "Stop Teaching Our Kids To Kill"), but most of these are not really based on scientific evidence.

Wikipedia has a good overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_controversies#Theories_of_negative_effects_of_video_games

I'd say currently the tl;dr is:

>Playing videogames like a normal person with restraint doesn't have side-effects

>>4667178
also it seems to attract people with those negative aspects it's linked to rather than create. although i'm sure if someone plays a fuck ton of vidya they may be influenced slightly but not towards full blown sociopath/misogynist/etc

>>4667132
The extent of the negative impacts are social isolation and reliance on reward systems.

Both issues can be attributed to other activities or can result in someone playing video games rather then the other way around.

tl;dr, There is not enough to talk about from a evidential perspective so there is little with that angle that can be taken seriously.

>>4667172
True, but no one can deny the scientific evidence that cookie clicker turns you into a huge fag.

I haven't read it yet, but Amusing Ourselves to Death is tangentially related to this stuff

I think that legitimate criticisms of video games are cheapened by ignorant criticisms, that hold GTA responsible for school shootings and so on. There's certainly a lot to criticise ... namely the banality of it all. But also on a psychological level, it surely effects a persons brain and I'm guessing for the worse.

When I was ten I found strategy games like Alpha Centauri challenging, but as I grew older they became less and less so, and now I find them completely meaningless, as they offer no sort of challenge whatsoever. I can still appreciate AC on an aesthetic level, but that's not enough to get me to play it. Yet, despite the banality, there are lots of people my age who still play games (usually much worse than what I refuse to play). My theories are a) those people are extremely stupid (many things indicate that this is true), b) they got in the habit of playing games as kids and they persisted into adulthood out of habit, regardless of the banality. I think that both theories are basically true, and I will add that few people have alternatives in life that come easily and are remotely fulfilling, so they might as well banalise the brains perpetually with soulless consumer trash.

videogames are the new artistic medium

enjoy your butthurt

>>4667327
Then why haven't they done anything as fresh as film and literature and poetry and painting and music have? Video games have the capacity to be a great artistic medium, but they're hardly been put to that use.

>>4667297
>When I was ten I found strategy games like Alpha Centauri

I was actually going to speak up in defense of games as a philosophical platform based on this game.

>>4667332
they'll get there with hologram illusions and true first person interaction, but for now they're just kinda meh

>>4667327
Videogames have become in a couple decades even worse than movies as far as money goes.

Aside from trite bullshit indie games (muh minimalism) and staggering autistic behemoths like Dwarf Fortress most video games are just too expensive and too complex for individuals or even groups to do on their own. You gotta put on the corporate leash if you want something done and they aren't interested in art.

They're interested in what sells and what currently sells is sex, violence, violent sex, and sexualized violence.

>>4667332
Play the motherfucking fallout series.

The feels from seeing skellingtons holding eacthother in hotel rooms have given me a deeper feel than any movie. The choice at the end of Honest Hearts is a real scenerio of Nietzsche's "is it better to outmonster the monster, or suffer silently?"

Boone having to snipe his pregnant wife because if he tried to save her or the slavers would have escaped with her is downright god-tier tradgedy.

>>4667332
Yeah! And why didn't Star Wars/The Godfather/2001/etc get made right after the invention of the camera? Film isn't even art!!!

>>4667332
Film received the same criticism until the 1950's. Besides Earthbound, The Neverhood, and (arguably) even Zelda surpass most modern films as far as artistic aspiration goes.

>>4667132
videogames are raw sensory experience that is both superior to and more real than reality

the people are beautiful, the violence is beautiful, everything is choreographed just like we used to believe god did, but this time it's choreographed by man

man is the god of his own hyperreality

>>4667353
A tear-jerker is a tear-jerker, you can apply that to a movie as well as a game. With games they could be interweaving motionalized avant-garde art and complex musical pieces that change depending on actions and movement and other things, all exploring some deep themes like the application of invisible power in everyday relations in an intersecting web of social machinery. Fact is, it's not that video games are limited, it's that they're UNLIMITED and this hasn't been touched, that speaks volumes about who they cater to.

>>4667354
There are some highly artistic silent films.

>>4667359
>Film received the same criticism until the 1950's.
It might have, but there are undoubtedly many incredibly complex, artistic and immortal films pre-dating the 1950's, films which truly pushed the boundary of expression

because what separates them is interactivity, the art part would have to be contained in the gameplay. like how a movie depends on cinematography, acting, editing and other techniques to separate it from other art forums instead of the screenwriting, dialogue, soundtrack, etc which can be evaluated in their own respective medium. a video game can use any and all forms of art, but it must depend on its unique parts to be considered art itself. otherwise, you have artistic music, writing, cinematics, etc which are just as they are with movies. unless something about the gameplay element, its unique aspect, can be worth considering as art, games will continue to be more sports

>>4667332
i think you may not have investigated videogames deep enough. gone home, the stanley parable, and braid are recent experiments in narrative.

>>4667372
Can you clarify what you're trying to say, because I'd say that The Sorrows of Young Werther is more than a tear-jerker even though it jerks a few tears. I'd say it describes the romantic spirit, the recognition that you're being an idiot, but not caring because everything has been devalued juxtaposed to the object of your affection. What I'm saying is a tear-jerker is not a tear-jerker. Back to Fallout, a post-apocalyptic world would be extremely depressing, and i think Bethesda especially made more than tear-jerkers when they picked up the franchise

>>4667376
I'm not going to deny that, just as there are a handful of video games that could potentially fall under the same category.

Ultimately the recent progression of video games (technology, availability, cost to produce, etc) coupled with the advent of the internet should allow for video games to extend their reach into (potentially) academically ambitious territory.

Flower is a good example of the film/game evolution comparison as it (vaguely) mimics early surrealist films.

>>4667297
Play an RTS game online.

>>4667385
There is no game equivalent to Picasso, or Stravinsky, or Tristram Shandy in video games

>>4667394
*a

>>4667400
Not yet.
Game development has been for the most part, difficult to get into and at times difficult to learn.

>>4667400
Even then video games are a fairly new medium. Art, music, and literature have been around for thousands of years.

>>4667388
I'm saying that telling a good story is not the sum of art, not even close.

>>4667392
Then it's just mimicking what was new a long time ago. I'm saying games have the capacity to do things that no other medium can, but they don't, they barely stray from their most conservative elements; a game where you don't kill people is the cutting edge of video games.

>>4667400
>Stravinsky
Kenta Nagata's work with the Mario franchise has had a similar impact on electronic music as Stravinsky had on minimalism

>>4667405
>A game where you don't kill people is the cutting edge of video games

Shows what you know.

99% of novels are mind-numbing entertainment. Just throwing that out there.

>>4667404
Games are a new medium, but they have far more to work with than any of those other medium started out with, and in fact have more to work with than those mediums have today.

>>4667407
Electronic music isn't sophisticated in the sense that classical or jazz are, because it's not capable of rhythmic complexity. Stravinsky changed the tempo of his music from measure to measure.

>>4667405
You're right, but that's not what I was trying to get at. My point is that video games, much like film, will require further technological advancement before they can reach full potential.

>>4667409
This true, but there is an artistic movement in writing, yet there is no artistic movement in games; there is no manifesto for a fresh way to create games.

>>4667417
>there is no artistic movement in games

>>4667415
>it's not capable of rhythmic complexity
nigga u wot m8

>>4667416
But they still have so much to work with that isn't being utilized. Again, there were silent movies that were cutting edge art, there is no game that is this.

Video games is a broad platform, it contains everything from, literature, music, art, game design and software engineering.

Its a jack of all trades master of none type thing. Video games can have a lot of artistic merit, but games like call of duty are no more representative of this then 50 shades of grey or the handover.

Most people who group video games up the way they do to criticize them don't understand the industry very well.

>>4667200
>misogynist
what?

>>4667421
Please show me some rhythmically complex electronic music,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc-Svb5mtM0

>>4667410
And up until this point they have been created by corporations looking to sell to the general population. Now with independent developers the boundaries can begin to be pushed. Who knows where they will be in 20 years.

>boards talking about topics that aren't theirs
Hilarious every single time. We're nearing "/v/ talking about music" and "/co/ talking about anime" levels of hilarity here.

>>4667424
Female characters in games are where female characters in film where fifty years ago.

>>4667405
No, but it is a medium of art, just like everything else. A painting will not evoke the same thing literature will. A video-game will not evoke the same thing music will. They are all different mediums suited for different experiences. Video games are not the sum of art, i agree a hundred percent, who are you arguing with. They are art though, fallout is an example of that.

>>4667400
They are not equivalent to each-other either*

>>4667426
They'll have more stories without killing people in them, that's about it, I think.

>>4667431
Yet you obviously know very little about video games.

Procedural rhetoric through interaction is the single most powerful method to convey a meaning or message, It can only be found in video games.
>video games can't be art

>>4667383
so is what i've said bullshit? because right now, the closest you can get to art in gaming is minimizing its one unique aspect: interaction. on the polar opposite end, games that maximize gameplay and minimize the artistic elements are competitive e-sports.

>>4667429
>No, but it is a medium of art, just like everything else. A painting will not evoke the same thing literature will. A video-game will not evoke the same thing music will. They are all different mediums suited for different experiences. Video games are not the sum of art, i agree a hundred percent, who are you arguing with. They are art though, fallout is an example of that.
Fallout is art, sure, but it can't be compared with any of the other mediums in terms of complexity. You only supported it by saying "it has a story with emotional depth"

>They are not equivalent to each-other either*
They are in terms of how radical and complex they are. The gaming genre probably has the least radical and complex expression of any medium next to pornography.

>>4667332
dwarf fortress is one of those precious gems, sure it's hard to get into but it's worth it

>>4667132

Everything can be bad for a person if they don't moderate their dosages of it. Watching movies or television non-stop is every bit as detrimental as playing video games.

I can't think of any books, but I'm sure its out there, it just seems like a waste to want to read anything about that because you already know the same cliche's you're going to get told.

Then again, literature has gone to shit just as much as the film or video game industry in recent years so unless you enjoy something like Twilight it's not like you have an awful lot of selection on contemporary works.

>>4667431
>Forgetting about VR
>Forgetting that you will soon be able to fuck your waifu in real time with realistic graphix

We will all live in the holo-cube, anon.

>>4667425
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGZKsxh1KtU

>>4667427
This is one of the most original threads in days you piece of shit, and if artistic capability is going to be discussed than this is the place to do it.

>/v/ talking about music
Music is a part of video games they should bring it up once and a while, what are you talking about

>>4667441
And you're saying that complexity is inspired by Mario?

>>4667440
A joke as this anon's post maybe, with virtual reality on the horizon who knows what will come of it.

>>4667428
oh please, that's not misogyny, there's no correlation between appreciating the female form and hating women.

>>4667446
>/lit/ is the place to discuss artistic capability.
>not /ic/ or /mu/, or any other board that deals with "art"

>>4667449
Female vidya game form is hardly reflective of rl form, it's closer to cartoon form. But that's not what I'm talking about, Jabba.

>>4667447
No, pretty sure this album was released before Mario debuted. You only asked for rhythmically complex electronic music, not "rhythmically complex electronic music inspired by Mario"

>>4667332
>Motion pictures are such a retarded medium why the fuck would I want to see a horse moving this is stupid photography is a much better medium

>>4667454
In that case I concede. I was perhaps thinking you meant electronic music of a certain type, not all music incorporating electronic sounds; I listen to John Zorn, who does some highly complex stuff with electronic sound.

>>4667455
Nobody was arguing that that was "art" in any meaningful sense.

>>4667453
once again, it has nothing to do with hating women

>>4667461
Hypersensitivity will be our downfall.

>>4667459
No, I'm going to agree that chiptune and other video game inspired sub-genres haven't produced many landmark releases for electronic music as a whole, as opposed to the work of, as you mentioned, Zorn/Naked City and countless others.

>>4667461
Imagine the video game features characters of all races, and black women for some reason are always shown with HUGE asses and wearing g-strings.

>>4667470
If you want to talk about electronic music independent of games, it goes all the way back to the same guy who invented sophisticated wiretaps.

>>4667483
Yeah, nevertheless Flying Lotus has experimented some within the genre of contemporary electronic music and has cited video game soundtracks as an influence.

>>4667489
Samuel Taylor Coleridge cited opium as an influence, that doesn't make opium complex art.

>>4667493

>Comparing video games to heroin

Shit nigga the fuck is you doin need to stop inhaling you're own farts

>>4667493
No, I'm just saying that "acclaimed" musicians that have shown potential to experiment have been influenced by vidya games.

>>4667499
I'm pointing out the fallacy of "something that inspires an artist becomes complex art by extension".

>>4667502
And, that's uh, great. I'm not saying there is anything WRONG with playing video games or loving video games, my bf lovers video games. I'm simply saying that they have lagged far behind their potential because they cater to the same crowd they came in on, they're motivated by catering more than artistic love, even.

>>4667499
Except opium only contains morphine and codeine alkaloids that can be used to manufacture heroin (all of which metabolize into morphine anyway).

>>4667505
Drugs have spurned on many artistic endeavors.

>>4667521
I don't have anything against drugs, I do them myself, albeit not heroin. I'm especially fond of psychedelic drugs.

What I don't understand is how can something that is essentially aspects of art coming together (graphics, music, story) not be art in itself? There are plenty of beautiful games with rich story lines that can explore moral themes (Planescape, The Witcher, etc) but for some reason people refuse to claim that they are art. The horrible picture of a dog drawn by a 2 year old can be considered art but not something lovingly crafted with hundreds of man hours poured into it. I feel that something that is a combination of art made to create something new has artistic merit that stands on it's own.

>>4667544
I also feel that people that claim video games aren't art as they haven't experimented enough are impossible to satisfy and that they will probably carry this sentiment to their graves.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/203810/

Wonder why there are no 'masterpiece of art' videogames? It's because it is a completely unique medium that has no analogous relation to any other medium that has ever existed, ever.

I might cry if I see another post about how 'there were good films right at filmmaking's inception!'

Do you know what they were? They were fucking PLAYS. Because that's what film is, recorded theatre. I forgive you if you're all too stupid to accept this, but please refrain from posting anything next time.
There have been more masterpieces of film because we actually have concrete artistic boundaries to consider in critique: acting, mise en scene, writing. Cinematography was extremely simple and obvious in early film. It was almost like some kind of Dionysiac 'performance' from times past :^)

Video games, on the other hand, have been considered only that, games, up until extremely recently. Nobody was calling games art in the 90s. It didn't even warrant discussion because no element of a game was ever astonishing enough to make someone stop taking bong rips and think 'this is like art or something man'.

There's also the part where all companies want to turn a profit so they don't take any chances and build upon the ideas of previous games - and the very first games were puzzles and recreations of sports. You wouldn't call a fucking Rubik's Cube art, so why would Rubik's Cube 2 electric boogaloo 2013 with guns be art?

>>4667551
Also, if one of these people could create a concept of what a game that could be considered art is I would like to see it.

>>4667554
You might say 'but what about indie devs! Where's the art games from indie devs!' and surely there are indie devs trying to push traditional video game values, but the face of the medium is still AAA developers, and this is what indie devs look to for inspiration, else they go to the other end of the spectrum and we end up with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TONcq_PGxs

Overall, probably the biggest issue is the absolutely rudimentary input procedures we have available right now. We are trying to emulate reality on typewriters. Check back in 2040 when we have neural control interfaces and that's when you'll get your art games, if ever.

>>4667476
So the developers really like black asses barely covered, not hating at all, more like worshiping

>>4667557
>We will have Neural Control Interfaces in 2040

We'll have Jetpacks too.

Who cares if video games are art or not?
Pic related, it's art.

>>4667572
>literally face the shame

>>4667556
>>4667372

>>4667372
Yet how are complex themes not explored in other games? Why must the music be complex to explore these themes? Why would it have to be avant-garde art? "Change depending on actions/movements" There are already games that do this. Most of this post is pretentious garbage.

>>4667681
Because games CAN have avant-garde art. If Naked Lunch were a video game instead of a book, then it probably would have had highly irregular art.

>>4667684
Oh please.
If Repin's art were a video game it would have the latest graphics.

I think one of the main reasons why there are no "trully artistic" video games is that video games are expensive and difficult to make. For example if you compare them to literature, all that an artist needs if he has an idea is a pencil and paper and he can start working on his manuscript. On the other hand if you have an idea for a video game you must purchase the software, learn how to code in it then if you are to do it alone so that no one could intervene with your artistic goals you must either learn how to compose or pay a lot of money to a composer to create the kind of music you would want in the game(this would most likely take several attempts all that have to be payed for I think), then you also have to deal with the graphics, the animations, the textures the performance issues, bugs and glitches and what not more. Now again you could hire freelancers to help you with all this but that will cost you even more money, or do it yourself but this would be an extremely difficult task. I think that dwarf fortress is the only complex and artistic video game made by a single person, but he is a math phd so there is that.

>>4667718
This.
This is the only reason we don't have the extremely artistic games. Which one of you guys are going to shell out to make video games art? None of you. You could make it happen right now if you wanted to, but as opposed to writing or music or painting, video game creation is difficult to master to a point of being able to create experimental games.

>>4667716
He created art that was fresh in his time, but it wouldn't considered massively creative if it he did it today.

>>4667724
So Repin's art is not art?

>>4667718
Film

>>4667727
It's art, but not sophisticated art by contemporary standards.

>>4667728
What of film?
Anyone can film and edit a movie without much prior experience. I've seen 1 hour long features that should not escape my A/V teacher's high-school classroom that are considered "films".
Videogames are on an entirely different level of difficulty when it comes to making one.

>>4667732
>It's art but not sophisticated by modern standards

No one ever said that art had to be sophisticated for it to be art. Do you know what you're arguing for?

>>4667738
When did I ever say games weren't a sort of art? Even Twilight is art.

>>4667741
I'm just done talking to you.
Goodbye, good day, and good evening.
Into the void you go.

>>4667728
Well yes I wanted to adress that in the point but than thought that my sentence structure was already fuck of a mess and decided against it.

I think that what allows artistic films(let's take kubrick as an example) to be made even though they are quite expensive(still I'd wager less than video games) is that films have simply been around much longer and thus have a much bigger audience that is willing to pay the starving artist.

>>4667743
I accept your surrender.

>>4667752
There were artistic films even in the silent era.

>>4667756
Well the artistic films of the silent era were cheaper and easier to make than the artistic video games of today.

>>4667758
Silent films actually cost a shitload to make back in the silent days, far more than most films cost now, factoring in inflation.

>>4667752
It mainly depends on the type of game. They can sky rocket in price depending on how big they are. Still, they are expensive even if you are making one yourself as you will still have to eat if you want to make sufficient progress on a game.

>>4667763
You forget that silent films were limited in what one could do. Thinking outside of the box was a given and because of this people were much more ready to fund something that people hadn't seen before.

Oh god what am I doing. This debate could rage on all day. I've been here since the thread started.

>>4667770
Not severely limited, really, from their perspective, since photography was already considered a medium of art.

>>4667464
This, it's completely ridiculous and games are getting attacked with this crap constantly
MUH FEMALE OBJECTIFICATION, MUH UNEQUAL RACE REPRESENTATION, MUH LGBT RIGHTS

Nobody in their right mind cares about this shit.

Why hasn't there ever been a board game that was great art?

>>4667785
Certain games of chess or go might qualify.

>>4667785
>never played mousetrap

So what are you playing nerds, I've been playing some Fantasy Zone, it's fucking fun

>>4667785
It's called Go.

>people wanting "artistic" video games

No, this shit needs to stop.

>>4667780
Yet silent film was a brand new medium in which no one knew what would sell and what would tank. People were more open to new ideas as they had nothing to build off of. This is not the case in video games.

>>4667801
We're not arguing for artistic video games, we're arguing whether video games are art or not.

>>4667813
They had plenty to build off of: drama, mimes, photography.

>>4667801
why?
why do you not want video games that actually have some kind of meaning or purpose?
that have beautiful or stylistic graphics?
that expand your mind and open you up to new ways of thinking?
that provide social and political commentary, that look to the future with criticism, and reexamine the past from fresh viewpoints?
that have emotionally meaningful charterers and effect you as a person?
that have a plot line that makes you think, that causes you to become more engaged with yourself and to understand both concepts and the world better?
what do you have against good videogames?

>>4667822
Good video games are not made with pretentious political commentary and bullshit plots. Good video games focus on good gameplay, and everything else is secondary.

>that expand your mind and open you up to new ways of thinking?
Please. This thread is hilarious.

>>4667819
Yet silent film, as a brand new medium, was able to fund more experimental ideas with greater cash flow regardless of whether it was successful or not. Early video games were for the most part unable to be experimental and because of this there was always a ground floor to build up off of. Can you cite your sources for how expensive silent film was to create? I am too tired to google it.

>>4667822
Why can't I just use books, music, and film for that? You do realize there are games out there that already "provide social and political commentary, that look to the future with criticism, and reexamine the past from fresh viewpoints" and everything else you listed.

>>4667825
What is good gameplay, but gameplay that aligns with your motivations for exploring the game?

>>4667834
Rome: Total War

>>4667826
Someone could pitch an idea for an experimental game to investors today, just like with film.

The budget for The Passion of Joan of Arc was Seven Million Francs, that's quite a sum considering what the film was.

The budget for The Passion of Joan of Arc was seven million Francs.
http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/81387%7C0/The-Passion-of-Joan-of-Arc.html

>>4667836
Isn't some of the feats of that game it's historical accuracy and how you play war reflects conceptions of that period or is it just "lol so randumb good game"?

>>4667834
According to this guy, chess is a bad game.

>>4667842
Chess is for desentized autist, board game freaks. There's no need to make chess into a video game.

>>4667842
Chess over a thousand years old, despite it's updated rules. That's holding up cave art and saying, "Lol"

>>4667840
Those are some of the feats. The only reason it is still relevant at all today at all is the masterful gameplay. Mods that destroy the history but expand the gameplay are incredibly popular. No one would care if it was historically accurate romans with horrible gameplay. It would be on the same level as daikatana.

>>4667851
So if you copied the gameplay and made it /mlp/ it would be just as good a game? I don't think you have thought it through. Most people I know, me included, enjoy that game for its masterful combination of great gameplay tailored to fit with my motivations for playing the game which is "playing historical epochs".

>>4667838
Except your forget one thing, an "artistic" video game would fall flat on it's face in sales therefor pulling in no investments. These types of games are shotdown before they are even created. With total lack of budget we get untalented developers attempting to create "art". The only reason major artistic films could even be created was because of funding.

>there are people on /lit/ RIGHT NOW that think video games are art

>>4667858
Pitch it to Paris VIII

There are options out there, they just aren't utilized and probably won't be, because, like you said, it's not lucrative since games targeted people wanna shoot things and see big titties

>>4667858
As an actual game developer this is retarded.

Games have a small software and hardware cost, other then this is just time, most small scale games cost nothing to make.

There are a shit load of "artistic" games in the independent space.

>>4667834
Gameplay is mechanics, controls, level design, player interaction etc.

>>4667857
It would not be just as good a game but it would definitely go down as memorable and not for a bad reason. A game cannot stand on it's own without good gameplay.

>>4667861
Please, video games are tailored to different people for different things. There are video games for people that like to think/read/and there are games for people that want to shoot things and see big titties. Everyone single one is seen across every single medium. Artistic big budget anything tends to not do well.

>>4667862
Regardless artistic independent games do not have many people investing into them.

>>4667872
There have been plenty of artistic big budget films and music. There have been plenty of books and painting that took lots of work and became recognized as great. There is no video game that's on par artistically with complex music, film, literature, poetry, painting, sculpting, drama, etc.

>>4667865
These should be aligned with the motivations of the player which relates to the games theme and genre. Gameplay in itself is only "good" if it fulfills your motivations as a player.

>>4667876
As such, we will never see an important AAA game that is art.

>>4667879
Planescape torment.

>>4667876
Yeh whats your point?
The argument was "artistic games would fall flat"
I showed how this was not the case
You then moved the goal posts and said regardless they don't have many people investing in them.

>>4667868
>A game cannot stand on it's own without good gameplay.

I'm arguing for the superiority of the holistic approach, not the superiority of categories. I think we are talking past each other. In games as in anything else entertainment, art and media related, 2+2=5 or 2+2=3 holds true, most of the time.

>>4667884
Yet for the most part they do not generate much money at all. Anything bigger then a small side project with actual money invested into it would yield relatively low money back.

>>4667883
You can't compare that with Cubism or Tristram Shandy.

>>4667888
Again whats your point? they don't make much money, I never addressed that argument, I addressed the argument that art games don't get made because they don't get investment, news flash most indie titles are self funded.

Your on /lit/ yet don't recognize they logical fallacy here.

>>4667896
Yes you can.

>>4667903
Except you're ignoring the starting point.
Art Games do not get investments on the same scale as film and various other forms of media because they do not generate revenue. There for many artistic games do not become created due to lack of funding due to low money yield from creating an artistic game.

>>4667903
Art games are made, but they are made by incompetent people there for causing them to not be art.

>>4667913
Because of this, art games are never made and do not exist because of how dangerous they are to the money of the investor.

>>4667905
No you can't. The graphics are not unusual, the gameplay is not paradigm shattering. It is the story itself you stand on, and the story, while exceptional, is not radically exceptional.

>>4667903
This is what you get when the gamers want a super hard version of Super Mario and not a sublime aesthetic expressions of life. Which is what you get when video games belong to plebs as preferred media.

>>4667896
This guy right here, has never played Planescape Torment so how is his opinion even valid?
Planescape torment is easily on par with complex media because in itself it is complex media.

>>4667916
Except you forget that art is subjective.

>>4667913
>>4667919
That's a different argument all together which I don't necessarily disagree with anyway.

>>4667910
For the third time, I am not addressing that point I have already clarified this a number of times, I addressed one comment and you continue to move the goal posts around to miss represent my argument. I am not going to continue this conversation as you have proven to either not understand logical fallacies or purposely miss represent my comments.

>>4667926
>subjective

>>4667926
Quality itself is subjective, radical quality, not nearly so much. Whether or not Cubism is good, that is subjective, but that is it is radically apart from preceding styles is readily evident.

>c/lits/ who spend their days circlejerking about their pet philosophers now deciding that they're art connoisseurs and make declarations about what a waste this other medium is
>totally unlike arguing about 50s marxists while being part of the bourgeoise
All made worse by most of you being relativist plebs to boot.

>>4667931
>literature
>art

It's just a bunch of words.

>>4667928
>That's a different argument all together which I don't necessarily disagree with anyway.

Interesting why do you disagree? I will agree that AAA games are expensive to produce and therefore require mass appeal. Do high culture have mass appeal?

>>4667941
>video games
>art

It's just a bunch of pixels.

>>4667928
This is all in succession

>>4667910
>>4667913
>>4667914

tl;dr

No true art games are made because they are not made by true masters of the medium and the people partaking in creating these fundless games do not create "art" and to get these masters working on an art game takes money from investors. Therefor, lack of money from these investors due to Art games falling short themselves in money yield results in no games that are art.

>>4667950
>Paintings
>Art

It's just a bunch of chemicals on a piece of paper

Artistic video games don't get made because only morons care about video games

>>4667943
Double Negative

Check your reading comprehension.

>>4667965
You have no ethos though.

>>4667966
%^]

>film
>books
>ever being art
lel

>>4667427
>"/co/ talking about anime"

Actually, /co/ has better taste in anime than /a/, as someone from /a/ originally.

It's good to get different opinions on subjects. Boards on the whole tend to skew one way or the other. No one who goes to a board about vidya is going to badmouth the whole of video games.

>>4667985
So,

Tell me some of that /co/ anime.

>>4667985
Neither /co/ nor /a/ know shit about anime

Some people on /m/ do but the majority don't either. 4chan in general knows next to nothing about the subject

>>4667994
This guy knows though.

>>4667994
He's the anime pro.

You guys better watch out.

>>4667544

The parts may be music, art, and writing, but you wouldn't call Justin Bieber and Twilight "art" because they're shit. If all the parts are shit, the whole is shit.

Compare video game music to any composer, or whatever band you think is good. Compare the uncanny valley gritty REALISTIC BLOOD AND BOOBS art to J W Waterhouse or Bourgereau. The writing is, at best, oversimplistic, and at worst asinine or even irritating.

Just because it has drawings, music, and a plotline, doesn't make it "art."

>>4668000
Except that you are putting every video game ever created on the same level as call of duty and completely ignoring any game that has any sort of merit.

>>4667994
>>4667986

/co/ ignores the seasonal garbage and goes for the good stuff, which is like two series a year. They tend towards the sophisticated five and classics. I'm not here representing them. I'm just saying while /a/ is posting spring seasonal waifus and discussing the harem of the month, /co/ only brings up good series. (If I name anything specific you'll dismiss my observation based off that specific title. Nah, go fuck yourselves.)

>>4668000
Also, you neglect the fact that Justin Bieber and Twilight can be considered art.
You neglect the fact that artistic merit is subjective. Someone could listen to Lady Gaga and think "Wow what horrible, empty, music" while someone else could listen to the same song and think "I can feel the theme of paranoia permeate this musical selection, it is art"

>>4668006

Except none of those words or anything remotely similar came out of my keyboard.

Take one of the best video games ever made, Ocarina of Time. On an artistic level, it's about as good as a (beautiful, touching, but ultimately simplistic black and white) children's novel. As art, it doesn't stand up. And that's from someone who has some of the music tracks in their player library. The story is a stripped and dry framework to lead the player around.

>>4668015
>"I can feel the theme of paranoia permeate this musical selection, it is art"

It mostly comes down to "I just think it sounds good though". Like the gameplay faggots.

>>4668015

Are you kidding me? "Muh art is subjective."

No. Art can be judged objectively. Get the fuck out if you think a fap rag is literature. If your retarded inbred spawn pukes up its ketchup-sandwich on paper and smears it around, is it suddenly art?

>>4668017
You're cherry picking.
>>4668015
Answer to this.

>>4668022
Yes.
If Jackson Pollock sells for millions and Jackson Pollock painted some of them with water guns my shit smeared across a room is art.

>>4668030
Unlike you, he knew what he was doing. ;)

>>4668029

>cherry picking because I was trying to avoid making the argument about any specific series until you forced me to with a hackneyed strawman

And I already did. >>4668022

God damn /lit/, I've seen better counterarguments on /b/ for god's sake. Guess I can't tell imbeciles to go read a book anymore, as apparently that act alone doesn't amount to shit.

>>4668032
He was a pioneer on taking advantage of pretentious people.

>You will never obtain millions from fucking around and learning basic color theory.

>>4668030

Great, you reminded me that hack exists. You want me to start drinking at 8 in the morning?

Marketing to people with more money than sense who wanted to feel cultured. Pollock is a marketing genius, not an artist.

>>4668036
I don't know, have you seen "Mural"?

>>4668035
He knew exactly what he was in opposition to and what he wanted to say and his work explicitly carried this expression.

Stop trying to kill art with your logos and intellectualization.

>>4668033
It doesn't matter why you chose "the best video game of all time" as the "the best video game of all time" varies from person to person. You cherry picked to support your own argument and now you aren't owning up to it.

>>4668039
He was a master conman, anon.

>>4668039
>Stop trying to kill art with your logos and intellectualization.

>bububut he put his FEELINGS in it

What are you, a menstruating fifteen year old? If that's all that matters, then porn is art, because having a boner is an emotion.

>logos and intellectualization

>I don't have an argument, so let me cover my ass with technobabble and big words

J. W. Waterhouse is an artist. Pollock, comparatively, is a palsy ten year old. That isn't based on "intellectualization", it's based on objective skill of the artist. Pollock splattered paint with a brush attached to his dick; Waterhouse made masterpieces.

>>4668041
Nah, some of his work is pretty damn impressive.

>>4668033
If art is objective how come many people hate modern art while others love it?

>>4668043
thanks for letting everyone know you have shit taste in art but the Pre-Raphelites were all about pretentious intellectualization
do you post in /pol/ art threads too?

>>4668043
>>4668033
Case in point.
One person thinks Jackson Pollock was a master while the other feels he is a hack job.
An example in this thread alone.

>>4668040

"Cherrypicking" means taking the low hanging fruit of arguments. If I were cherrypicking, I'd go after Call of Duty or whatever the fuck shit is out, not something I actually like. Are you composing an argument, or is your cat walking across the keyboard?

Fuck your shit, kid. I have editing to do. I'm out. Go masturbate to naked-women skyrim mods.

>>4668050
>Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position

>>4668050
Hey, hey kid....


>Ad hominem

>>4668043
>J. W. Waterhouse is an artist. Pollock, comparatively, is a palsy ten year old.
>art should be fapable

You sound like the vulgar masses crying about how art "doesn't represent something real anymore" I bet you call paintings of vases with flowers in them art.

itt people who don't have friends and think they are edgy for not playing games try to claim art precludes videogames

>>4667544
It's a product.

The technology costs too fucking much. You have to go and ask some corporate overlord to keep things under control.

Said overlord eventually realizes that you might as well spend 75% of the budget on marketing because the only way to justify the tremendous costs is to be top dog and have every kid in the west pester their parents for pocket money to buy this fucking TOY so they can drown their frustrations and ignore their shitty listless high school experience for another moment by pretending to be someone else, preferably their favorite pathologically fearless character captain six pack who has mastered the use of every weapon and every vehicle yet remains totally unaware of any rules of engagement throughout his entire career.

>>4668111
The real question is why you are mad though. And why you waited all this time just to get trips.

>>4668050
>"Cherrypicking" means taking the low hanging fruit of arguments.

Cherrypicking means selecting evidence that supports your preconceived opinion while ignoring evidence that contradicts it.

>>4667400
>Tristram Shandy
I've heard this brought up as a predecessor to videogame storytelling.

>All this asshurt because some people don't enjoy books.

And people call gamers autists.

>WANTING games like Gone Home and The Last of us

Jesus what the fuck is wrong with you shit heads. The whole "GAMES ARE ART" movement generates nothing but garbage.

>>4667822
Give me a list of games that have all of that that aren't just some stupid SJW faggot's platform to complain about something no one cares about or, alternatively, a game meant to pander to said SJWs/fedora wearing retards who'll buy anything that Kotaku says is good.

I'll wait.

>>4667332
Fresh? That's fucking stupid. The very first video game was "fresh," because it was THE VERY FIRST VIDEO GAME.

>>4667400
That makes no sense, you should have listed off actual works instead of the artists behind them. And if you did, though your sentence would finally make sense, you'd still be just as wrong. There are video games now which are honored and respected as classics, and as video game taste becomes more refined, that list will broaden and sharpen.

>>4668292
Papers, Please
why play anything else
why even play

My biggest disappointment in gaming is its grounding in reality. Computers as a medium have an unmatched potential for the abstract, and very few games have even begun to touch on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGsnm2nOnso

>>4667851
But equally mods that were made first and foremost to restore historical accuracy to RTW are incredibly popular.

If you know your RTW, you'll know that Roma Surrectum and Europa Barbarorum are the most popular TC mods since their inception; both pride themselves on expanding on extra-gameplay elements, and restoring authenticity and accuracy to the vanilla model.

You're right that historical accuracy plus bad gameplay is more of a deal-breaker as opposed to vice-versa, but the fact that 'historical' TCs exist, are the most played and are actively sought even after almost a decade post-release means there's an impetus to have some strong conceptual or literary framework around the core mechanics of gameplay when it comes to vidya.

>>4667931
Tables are meant to be hold things, a master carperenter could not tell anyone which table looks better, just harder to make and the sturduier frame stuff. A dietician could tell you what is healthlyier, but not what tastes better. Art is made for evocations and what it evokes is entirely subjective.

>>4667822
Don't listen to this idiot.

Then read this.

>>4668349
Because the abstract is self-masturobatory garbage.
It takes an interactive medium to realize this.

>>4668349
>My biggest disappointment in gaming is its grounding in reality.
>even though pretty much no video game is grounded in reality
Those abstract games are shit, too.

>>4668141
>.No sooner was my uncle Toby satisfied which road the cannon-ball did not go, but he was insensibly led on, and resolved in his mind to enquire and find out which road the ball did go: For which purpose he was obliged to set off afresh with old Maltus, and studied him devoutly.—He proceeded next to Galileo and Torricellius, wherein, by certain Geometrical rules, infallibly laid down, he found the precise path to be a Parabola—or else an Hyperbola,—and that the parameter, or latus rectum, of the conic section of the said path, was to the quantity and amplitude in a direct ratio, as the whole line to the sine of double the angle of incidence, formed by the breech upon an horizontal plane;—and that the semiparameter,—stop! my dear uncle Toby—stop!—go not one foot farther into this thorny and bewildered track,—intricate are the steps! intricate are the mazes of this labyrinth! intricate are the troubles which the pursuit of this bewitching phantom Knowledge will bring upon thee.—O my uncle;—fly—fly,—fly from it as from a serpent.—Is it fit—goodnatured man! thou should'st sit up, with the wound upon thy groin, whole nights baking thy blood with hectic watchings?—Alas! 'twill exasperate thy symptoms,—check thy perspirations—evaporate thy spirits—waste thy animal strength, dry up thy radical moisture, bring thee into a costive habit of body,—impair thy health,—and hasten all the infirmities of thy old age.—O my uncle! my uncle Toby

Nah, I don't think so

>>4668321
Tristram Shandy is a work. Rite of Spring for Stravinky, pic related for a great work by Picasso.

>>4668310
It wasn't fresh in any thought-provoking sense, it was fresh in the sense of gogurt.

>>4669878
/lit/ is such a strange beast. Even its trolls are steeped in culture.

>>4670025
Trolling binds us. It transcends all national, age, racial, and probably about any other boundary you can imagine. We come together to make u mad.

>>4667428
uhm I'm sorry besides characters like peach(even though she had her own game) and characters in a period piece, what the hell are you talking about? Just because the characters look attractive? Most of them are not useless. And for every useless girl there is one that kicks ass so its not like all female characters are the same. I need examples.

>>4667332
I personally really like the way some video games convey stories. The Metroid series does a great job immersing the player in the plot without narrations or cutscenes. Everything is from the pov of the main character. You have to figure the plot out yourself. Its nice.

>>4667354
>Star Wars/The Godfather/2001
top
fucking\
kek

>>4670315
>Pussy Galore
>useless
Pick one fgt

>>4667400
>a medium not even a century old hasn't developed as much as a medium that's been around for thousands of years

Remember when they used to say watching films was bad for you? Remember when they used to say reading novels was bad for you?
Video games are an art form. Not saying that I understand them really, but I'm certainly not going to act like an old fart that complains "the Beatles aren't real music" about it.
Anyone who can't understand this simple fact is delusional.

>>4670491
Because there were no artistically great silent films.

The same criticisms can be said of all junk escapist media, video games just have a higher proportion of them.

>>4670575
But there have been artistically great video games, both aesthetically and in terms of plot.
Think about the vibrant art of a game like Rayman or Zelda: Wind Waker.
Or the stories in games like Final Fantasy or Resident Evil.
Plus there's gameplay, which is a whole new artistic aspect and hard to talk about in concrete terms.
It's this latter feature which I think makes people the most nervous and hesitant to call vg art.
But in actuality, it's the closest to a second person perspective any art form has ever achieved.

>>4670599

>being this pleb

it doesn't take a genius to realize that excessive gaming will lead to a highly anesthetized population of mouth breathing retards

literally every american teen had a 360 or ps3 and look how that turned out. as well as 30 year old manchildren lacking real substantive hobbies, unless you consider anime substantive

video games, like anime, are a cyst on the cognitive functions of humans. this is why playing on a playstation 4 is the only acceptable and most patrician option. intellectual games that stimulate the mind, along with beautiful 1080p displays at 60 frames per second, almost bringing games to the level of fine art but not quite. any other way of gaming is both destructive and dumb. please step up

>>4670644
i keked

I play video games competitively. Usually up to 6-10 hours a day. I have no homicidal urges and I'm probably one of the most mentally stable people I know. At least for me video games teach control and strategic thought, and I've seen a few studies that shows cognitive improvements in video game usage as well.

>>4670599
8/8 m8

>>4670381
ok but why did you liken it to the 50s then? women were still seens as useless then not just made to look attractive all the time. That was a bad comparison

>>4670644
what about things like the vine, instagram, snap chat, and twitter? why are only video games to blame? Another thing, at least video games have been shown to increase motor skills. Also not all games are the same; there are actually quite a few games that require you to read alot and/or offer challenging puzzles

>>4670719
The James Bond books were written starting in 1953, with Casino Royale. Bond's character sees women as useless, he hates them, but they aren't in the story; in the story all useful women are solely included to be sexual devices; if a useful character is not there as a sexual device, then the character is a man.

>>4670740
But again not all the girls are a sex device only some of them in a given series. They don't all hook up/want to hook up with the main character. What you still seem to be getting pissed at is them looking attractive. Which doesn't make sense.

>>4670740
Also all the male characters are attractive too. Wait are you saying your only complaint is over- sexualization? Such as things like lolipop chainsaw.

>>4670740
Also all the male characters are attractive too. Wait are you saying your only complaint is over- sexualization of bodies? Such as things like lolipop chainsaw.

>>4670747
I don't think we can deal with the objectification of women (are you really saying that's not an almost universal trend in video games?) without dealing with the other big issue in video games, the brutal violence.

The "damsel in distress" feminist frequency and other brave feminists tackling the big important issues always complain about isn't something you can just band-aid. The objectification is coming from something specific and it's the male-male violence in videogames. They're chattel. You rescue the damsel not because you love her but as a means to the end of emasculating the male villain.

That's also why every eight year old on XBox wants to fuck your mom. To humiliate you as a man.

Until we deal with that public-conflict centric masculinity trying to deal with the objectification of women is just attacking symptoms of the deeper problem.

And also it's fucking video games. This social justice in video games shit is just more opiate made to trick idiots into thinking they're changing the world without actually threatening the status quo in any meaningful way. Just like LGBT politics and feminism in general.

>>4670747
While Bond being a vicarious avatar for the reader is somewhat analogous to a video game, there is a major difference: video game have intensive visual aid. Therefore they can interface directly and visually, rather than merely as a narrative device. Virtually all the women in the James Bond books are described in sexual terms, even those he doesn't sleep with (notably in Moonraker he doesn't sleep with the woman he's pining for); thus in games. In other words, if woman isn't supposed to be alluring to the player, her role would be simply fulfilled by a male; the female manifestation is chosen with the express purpose of sexual interest; if that purpose is not there, then the character is seldom female.

>>4670759
They're attractive, yes, but it's not a requisite for their manifestation.

>>4670724
you're right
i was jk

>>4670766
but male characters are still seldom unattractive. At least the good guys.

>>4670762
I don't know, I think the concept of phallogocentrism owes a great deal to feminist theory.

>>4670776
That's true, but Bond is not an attractive because otherwise he'd be a woman. I also don't know if we're talking about attractiveness here, so much as sexually emphasized.

>>4670779
>not an attractive male
In other words, if his element of being male isn't based on his attractiveness. He's a male primarily, attractive secondary. With women, being attractive is part of being female, they need it to exist in the story as females.

>>4670762
when did I say that all the females in the games aren't made super attractive? I said that over and over asking if that is anon's only problem. Anyway why is violence specifically a male thing are you saying females can't be aggressive? And duh the game is never just about the character's love for the girl, it's also saving the world brah. It's weird you focus about it being about humiliating the villain. That's not what I tend to get out of it at all. provide examples please

>>4670780
last part of that sentence made no sense; he exists in the story as a male as well. I see your point about the attractiveness being a huge part of say, a character like Juliet,(lolipop chain saw). However is that done so much to the same degree with all female characters. Quite a alot of them are just really attractive without that being the main focus of their character such as Tifa from ff7. Say what you want about here boobs but I'm just saying it's not highly focused on in story.

>>4670790
I'm saying that if woman is not sexy *to the player* in a video game, then she ceases to be a woman; the role would be fulfilled by a male character. The main factor in choosing whether a character is male or female, is whether or not that character is supposed to appear sexy *to the player*; if that is a primary consideration, then the character is female; if not, then the character is male. This is basically the same formula as the Bond series.

>>4670796
The player always assumed to be male you're saying? I'm just saying that it's valid to point out that ugly male protagonists are rarely used either.Also how can you be so sure that's the motive. They don't want to make all characters male anyway because that's "unfair/sexist" or whatever. Mainpoint is I just think that most characters are made attractive anyway. I guess you can say that more effort goes to making the women attractive due to the assumed male player?

>>4670810
Video games don't care too much about appearing sexist. If there were equal representation, then half the characters would be female anyway; a "token" woman works less well than a "token" black, since blacks comprise a smaller demographic in the West.

>I guess you can say that more effort goes to making the women attractive due to the assumed male player?
Default is male. Everything in conceived as male, females are only introduced when the character is conceived as alluring; men are buff, but they aren't designed with alluring being the only reason they're men and not women.

>>4670812
ok how many games have you played anon, I'm getting skeptical? The men aren't all "buff"
Also explain your first sentence. I don't understand what you're saying. Half of the characters are female or just token? I don't think they're all token though or do you mean underdeveloped? Any character can fit that though.

>>4670818
I mean that whether or not a character is female is generally determined by whether or not being alluring is an element of the character. If Laura Croft were not supposed to look sexy to the player, would the character have been female? not likely.

>>4667332
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evs0nFCufNM

Did I hear "videogames can't be fresh"?

>>4670823
You sure about that? Especially in the age of Bishounen? And let me get this now. SO your main problem...or everyone's I guess, is that the character is made female only if sex appeal is apart of the character trait and males are (supposedly) never chosen for this job and thus that is why you are disturbed? You think it's damaging to have the idea of women as the "fairer sex" ideal? But more on the Laura croft comment: we're getting into the fact(or problem?) that boys mostly play video games so to make the character sexy to the player it would have to be female.
Anyway I don't see how this is particularly a bad thing that boys are more likely to play. yeah boys play video games more but because of that they are also less likely to read like everyone is harping on this tread. Just saying is this"gender gap in games really much to complain about? Girls are probably more likely to read(even if it's those shitty novels)

>>4670837
I can accept the argument that if games are nothing but teenage male fantasies, but that notion is under attack itt. So it's a question of whether or not you're talking about games as art, or as a diversion and nothing but a diversion.

>>4670841
mostly escapism. I see it as nothing that is real or reflective of the real world. More likely a crazy parallel universe in some way to get away from the humdrum of life. Perhaps what they mean is the story can be artsy/dramatic at times especially with the established mythology like the Hobbit or something but that's usually it. There are still usually many aspects that just would not happen in real life or are pure fantasy.

>>4670841
of course not to get away permanently because that's irresponsible. Just for a while.

Simulations in video games are akin to hyperrealism in art. We've already gone this far.

>>4670599
>But there have been artistically great video games, both aesthetically and in terms of plot.
Aesthetics and plot are all that matters to you, huh? This is the typical /lit/ interpretation of video games and why it's such a controversial subject on here or anywhere in the world where the majority of people didn't grow up playing and loving games. Nobody seems to know how to properly approach and critique the medium.

Video games will be considered art in the near-future, when people who DO understand (and have spent tens of thousands of hours playing them since birth) and are educated and good at articulating themselves begin to write about the medium and start elucidating everything good about them, everything wrong about them, everything about the culture surrounding them, etc. Or, in other words, they are already art, there just hasn't been anyone besides Icycalm who has been capable of explaining why or how.

>>4670644
>this is why playing on a playstation 4 is the only acceptable and most patrician option

sony pls go

>>4671614
Without descending into determinism, I agree with the notion that it's a matter of generational divide. An article I once read said that vidya is essentially meandering through film's schlock era. Until another (at least) 20 years passes, vidya won't have been culturally appropriated fully for proper appreciation to occur.

Vidya can have good characterisation, enthralling plots, lore, cutscenes, graphic style and/or hyperrealism - whatever. But these seem to be corollaries pinned on; concepts that we can translate simply because they are found in other, more 'traditional' art forms. Gameplay, certain RP elements (building up some sort of element with experience, and improving the way in which it manages the game world) and progression within a virtual space are peculiar to vidya. I'm not saying it's a case of 2deep4u, but clearly vidya is not a complete analogue to film, in the same way a film is not analogous to a book.

Icycalm is defo worth a read, nonetheless.

>>4667140
The only reason that community is cancerous is because it's on 4chan.

This is one of the few, very rare boards that are not cancerous.

Well, OP, 10/10 bait, look at all ruckus you've stirred up. As for an actual answer, you should check out the work of Philip Zimbardo, the guy who did the Stanford Prison Experiment, he says something to the effect that video games and porn make young men into complete sociopaths who are unable to speak to women. Something about rewiring the pleasure centres of your brain. I don't have to worry, because I don't play video games. Now I'm sure there are edifying video games out there, but for me, they're spoilt by the Pavlovian sense of being associated with the sights, smells, and all around general aesthetics of early adolescence, alas.

Video-games can do interesting things but that doesn't mean they are interesting.

Discuss.

>>4667985
Kill yourself.

>>4667964
>Art
>Art
It's just interpretation.