/lit/ - Literature

>>4607541
hey look, a faggot complaining about other faggots. all is well here on /lit/

I had a random thought today that the reason why feminism and queer studies and black studies and whatever else are popular now is because without them academia would be horrendously boring monoculture.

Aphra Behn isn't on reading lists because she's excellent. She's on reading lists because academics are goddamn bored of Shakespeare, Milton, and whatever else has been hammered into the ground over the past 400 years.

You have to understand that academics want their particular field of study to stand out and you can't stand out being Student #243,289,238,283,231,984,283,203 to write a paper on Shakespeare.

>>4607574
Then why bother bitching about those studies then? Sounds like a step in the right direction.

>>4607587
I never bitched about them. I'm not OP. Obviously.

>Spitting fire and revolting against the Injustice and Inequality of our Oppressive Patriarchal Society
>Listening to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALS92big4TY
>Hear pages rustling and furious mumbling
>Look up at the window of one of the nearby dorms
>There is a white cis male poring over the Vulgate
>Stop in the middle of my poem to watch
>Intolerant religious mumbo-jumbo by dead white men rape my indignant ears
>Look back down and begin jiggling my bare breasts with articulate and syncopated screams on my right to forcefully counter centuries of oppression and ignorance

>>4607612

>Biking through the quad
>See some students having a poetry slam
>Cruise closer, happy to see young people excited about poetry
>There are even students watching out the windows, what a great communal atmosphere
>Lovely young woman shaking her tits and talking about feminism
>Ah, my dear, if you're arguing that women should be valued for their minds before their bodies, you're undermining your own point
>For your poetry is heartfelt but atrocious, while your tits are simply magnificent

>>4607574
There is a deeper meaning to it, and it is a serious concern in my opinion. I realize most will disagree with me, and I understand their views but I still see it as wrong.

We are teaching the wrong lessons to people and pushing a paradoxical agenda that can only bring destruction.

I would love to discuss this with people without the emotion that always comes from my suggestions, but it never happens. The reason I think that happens is because it gets to a point where they don't have an answer, or see the truth in my view but can't admit to it.

My theory is this:
Almost all problems in American society are caused by the feminist agenda. The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is, in my view, exactly the same as "picking a gender". Which is not a problem in itself, except that, through feminism, the rare exceptions are treated as the average. It seems as though modern feminism, which is no longer about equality, is actually trying to oppress more people that they could ever help.
There is no goal, other than letting everyone be "special". It strips the accountability and makes everyone a victim.

>>4607644
>swinging on my host's chest in the fresh air
>unfettered by softy-cups for a change
>male passing by on metal wheel-propulsion contraption
>we make him smile
>tfw no arms or legs to ride metal wheel-propulsion contraption

>>4607690
Glenn Beck I didn't know you posted on /lit/ but yes we're aware of your paranoid theories

>>4607690
>Almost all problems in American society are caused by the feminist agenda.

people don't respond to you because this thesis is absolutely ridiculous, not because they see the truth and don't have anything to say. lol

>>4607598
Just meant in general, anon. Poor choice of verb on my part.
>>4607690 I suppose my statement applies to this, uh, gentleman.

>>4607794

GLENN BECK! HA!

Relevant and topical. Very witty 10/10 execution

>>4607798
No, I actually believe I am right.
In fact, this is usually what happens.
If you disagree, tell me why.

I'm not looking for an argument, just a friendly debate. I'm looking for an answer, so prove me wrong.

Don't take the easy route and give me an example of a problem that is caused by something other the feminie agenda, give me a reason to doubt my claim I made here:

>The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is, in my view, exactly the same as "picking a gender". Which is not a problem in itself, except that, through feminism, the rare exceptions are treated as the average. It seems as though modern feminism, which is no longer about equality, is actually trying to oppress more people that they could ever help.

Can you? Will you just use a buzzword so you don't have to?

>>4607856
bro please get off the computer

>>4607856
It's more than obvious your perception of "modern feminism" is informed entirely by preconception and what chauvinists have told you it is. At least try to put any effort into studying feminism before undertaking such grandiose opinions.

>>4607856
>I'm not looking for an argument, just a friendly debate. I'm looking for an answer, so prove me wrong
For fuck's sake. This is why philosophy education is so important: so you don't get idiots going around "asking for debates" but not "arguments" and asks for positive claims contingent on negations of positive claims

>Don't take the easy route and give me an example of a problem that is caused by something other the feminie agenda
>Don't take the easy route and falsify my theory

>The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality
This only exists in your little hivemind about what muh libruls think

>"picking a gender"
It's not about picking a gender. Do you know how classification works?

>through feminism, the rare exceptions are treated as the average.
No idea what you're on about here

>modern feminism, which is no longer about equality, is actually trying to oppress more people that they could ever help
I feel like you don't have a clear idea about what feminism is

>>4607574
>I had a random thought today that the reason why feminism and queer studies and black studies and whatever else are popular now
Because these populations' histories, cultures, etc., have been entirely, willfully, ignored by academia since its foundations, which makes their contribution to various fields of knowledge a more complete vision of the truth we're interested in discovering? I agree, we must move out of the cave of shadows. Nothing worse than entitled idiots that want to not just bury their heads in the sands but everyone else with them, just because they're afraid of girls, queers, and dark skinned folks.

>>4607574
At first I misread this and thought you said Aphra Behn was excellent. I nearly killed myself lol.

>>4607690
You're taking a largely invented narrative and applying it to a movement that hasn't had a unified goal since women got the right to vote. Feminism is not a "mentality" that spreads through society like a dance craze, and if you were really impartial about it, you'd understand that people benefit from feminist organizations and practices in ways that don't oppress others. People probably don't take you seriously because you seem totally ignorant of what feminists are and what they do, yet you still have this buffoonish attitude of superiority where you feel you need to educate everyone about "the way things are." If I tell you to check your privilege you'll get emotional but you should try not to speak so broadly about how feminism affects everyone.

>>4607924
yeah, this guy gets it
in the end, say what you will about "oooh, aaah, modern feminism is BAD and HATES MEN" or etc etc whatever you want, it sucks to be treated shittily bc you don't have a dick. Lots of people are still treated shittily bc they don't have a dick. Let's change that probably, and feminism, despite not having a unified goal, is generally trying to go about doing that.

Now, in terms of "feminist lit", it can be argued that reading more female/feminist lit can make you more sensitive to the aforementioned shitty treatment due to lack of dick and then hopefully make you less likely to be a dick with a dick. If you think otherwise (and are basing that opinion on close experience and not prejudice), by all means, don't read female/feminist lit and avoid people who tell you you should. But don't confuse feminism as "god Damn It everyone needs to read books By Women and never read a man's book again". Just try not to be a dick.

>>4607748

Truly, the real injustice is that tits are still shackled to women, unable to live independent and self-determined lives.

Until breasts have little arms and legs, none of us is truly free.

>>4607690
Simple stratifications that made navigating sexuality, gender, relationships, and even interests easy, are no longer in place. The culture will certainly go through a phase of chaotic upheaval while we deal with all this stuff that's suddenly coming out of the woodwork because we're opening up the female perspective into the public sphere.

>we are teaching the wrong lessons to people
Some people, dumb people, are teaching lessons that are wrong. The majority are enjoying the influx of sluts or enjoying being a slut.

>>4607884
>chauvinists
Why even come here? Stay on reddit

>>4607974
welcome to lit, there are a lot of us leftists here. perhaps you should depart to /pol/, friend.

>>4607974
>uses a word in its proper usage and context
>receives the Dreaded Reddit Blast
Beep boop

>contemplating the forms in my cardboard box home under the overpass
>the noise of mere mutable matter and its nothingness is drowned out by the music of the spheres
>the planes gives way to the continuum
>the continuum dissolves into infinite points
>the illusion of multiplicity is shattered and a single aspatial, atemporal point emerges
>my mind merges with the Monad and all Forms are understood at once
>I have attained true theoria

>>4607944

The fact is that there are also many men who are treated shittily in their daily lives regardless of the fact that they have a dick, and when such men encounter perspective-poor criticism from self-proclaimed feminists urging that male privilege or rape culture or whatever other topic of import that such men have not heard of before be reined in, their perception of it becomes a perception of shrieking harpies that attack what they love, and colors in a response which is frankly reactionary. The extent to which women (in guise of tumblr, the succubus to reddit's incubus so to speak) are demonized on, say /v/ in the current day is ridiculous, totally excessive - and it's not the only such board on the internet.

But I don't see a way in which that can be rectified. "Learning more" about the movement through reading whatever author is currently identified as feminist is not going to help because the trauma has already set in. Added problem is that plenty of self-identified feminists in fact are fools spouting ill-considered nonsense - same as any large gathering of people there are many who run their mouths and not so many who run their brains. But when they are identified in this way by such men as I am describing, it is always extrapolated to mean that feminism as concept is worthless. When all a man hears of the word is a label on people that attack him, that word becomes his enemy.

All made more tragic by the fact that nobody has any real reason to protest changes which feminists desire and defend it more as instinctive reaction to attack than as truly deeply held belief. In order to fill this philosophical void, narrative of woman as cultural boogeyman becomes present, woman becomes sin-eater for "they changed it now it sucks". Which in the end is what it is. People need to face transformations of things with equanimity, not being partial to their current standing and not fearful of perceived assault upon it.

>>4607891
>I feel like you don't have a clear idea about what feminism is
I feel like most people don't understand what modern feminism is - including you.

I know what feminism WAS and I know what people think it IS but that is not the overall truth. Modern feminism aims to make women worth more than men instead of equality of male and female. There is a lot evidence to support this.

>>Don't take the easy route and falsify my theory
Nope. I clearly said ALMOST ALL problems, not all, knowing that there is no absolute cause of anything, and knowing how easy it is to negate an argument due to using the word "all". I didn't want to see some little kid discussion.

>>through feminism, the rare exceptions are treated as the average.
What I mean by that goes hand in hand with "everyone gets a trophy" which is NOT something that "muh liberals" think - it is the reality of our society, through feminism and I am about to explain why.

>>4607924
>>4607944
I agree with a lot of the points here, especially that feminsm doesn't have a goal. That's why I said it's a self defeating paradox, because when you close one door by solving a problem it just causes more problems.
Example:
>gay rights
>now let people choose their gender*
but let's break it down farther.

>Hank ran the race faster. He's the best runner. But here is your metal for trying.
>Don't strive for first place?

>Fat people get their feelings hurt so we have fat acceptance to make them feel better
>instead of teaching people to ignore the hateful comments and learn to feel better about themselves.
>now let's see more obese models
>in fact, let's not have skinny models at all because that makes fat people feel bad

See, I realize that making fun of fat people is wrong. I realize that making fun of a handicapped person is wrong. We already teach that bullying is wrong.
Why do we need to allow people to feel good about being fat? Teach someone to love themselves, don't teach us that being fat is OK.
Don't make the "problem" normal.

How does this relate to feminism? Because it appeals to emotion over logic. Now I know, "ooooh he said women are emotional that pisses me off"
It's true. regardless of your emotional feelings. See, you can tell me I don't understand feminism or i've been brainwashed by chauvinists, but that's exactly how I feel towards people that can't accept that feminism has become a problem in society - in fact those assumptions actually enforce my point.

Emotion over logic: he's better, but don't worry, you're still special.
Emotion over logic: being fat is bad, but don't feel bad - embrace it.

Emotion over logic: Modern feminism.
Why? because modern feminism wants to make everyone equal when everyone is not equal. I know, people need to have equal rights, but they do. Now women need to be given opportunities to express themselves so they do. Now women need to be able to fuck for money without being labeled as a prostitute... so they do.

Where is the accountability?

>>4607541
i used to read a dude's blog that was straight up like that

it wsa great

>>4608064
>Emotion over logic
Is this bad? Why?

>>4608083
When I entered college, I expected to be just like that. In anthropology, when drug use was brought up, I would reply that I didn't even "do coffee." Then, I decided to do other things instead and branch out, largely because of that anthropology class where I realized that a lot of the things that I thought were horrendous aberrations of what is normal were in fact incredibly normal, so I decided to be normal instead of better than everybody, and that was so much more enjoyable than locking myself away and being extra righteous.

>>4608094
You can't act on emotion because emotions aren't necessarily correct. If someone feels sad about something, we shouldn't change something around to make them happy. By doing that we constantly lower the bar and breed weakness instead of strength.
I believe this is a main reason why Western society is in the condition that it's in, and I believe the overall cause of reaching this point is the constant "exceptions" we've made by appealing to emotion over logic, specifically feminist causes. Not ALL feminists causes are bad, obviously.

>>4608064
>modern feminism aims to make women worth more than men
Nah
>let people choose their gender
Today I'm going to choose to not identify with my biological sex even though it'll put me through hell & throw my life into chaos so that I can make some straight white dudes uncomfortable

>>4608064

It's funny you should complain about emotion in such an emotional post. Your post just makes it so very obvious that women have hurt and rejected you. You sound like you are projecting really hard about your feelings of inferiority and sexual frustration. That must be tough, but you should cheer up because in the long run nothing will have changed and you like everyone else will wind up in a grave.

>>4608138
>Le xD HURRR FUCKING DURR face

Man, I really could have lived my whole life without knowing you existed.

>>4608064
>he's better, but don't worry, you're still special.
I don't see a problem with this in moderation. You can simultaneously say that a person should keep trying to win without saying that person is in some real way "less" because they lost.
>being fat is bad, but don't feel bad - embrace it.
It should be "being unhealthy is bad. You deserve a healthy body and should work to gain one."

It is, in fact, possible to be positive AND to encourage someone to work rather than be a pushover.

i'm biologically male but i identify as a woman who underwent f2m surgery but now wants to go back to being a woman but can't afford it

>>4608148

Consider that your worldview is paranoid and confrontational, and that your postings in this thread read like a straw man of your own position.

>>4608051
Definitely see what you're saying
I guess the best way to approach the problem isn't necessarily "read x feminist book", but just generally try to show to these dudes with false ideas of feminism the good things abt it & concrete ways it helps peoples lives be less shitty
Through not-harpies trying to be reasonable with them (and also prwsumable with the harpies to try to get them to cool down/not be assholes themselves)

>>4608131

This is your central problem. You think people should be acting logically, according to your own understanding of what is important, specifically you think the most important thing for the Western world is strength.

Other people think differently.

You are not talking WITH those people, you are talking DOWN to them.

Feminists, and much of modern culture, do not believe that Western civilization should be motivated by a quest for strength. This is their belief, just as you believe that it should be motivated by that search. They are equally based off of NOT logical arguments, but instead experience, opinion, and emotion.

If that makes you angry, I understand.

If you want to argue with somebody that Western civilization should be motivated by strength then I recommend >>>/pol/

>>4608155
well u should ask ur uncle OBOMBA to pay for ur surgery since ur femENTITLED to it

>>4608138
>Nah
really? that's the best answer you can give me?

>Today I'm going to choose to not identify with my biological sex even though it'll put me through hell & throw my life into chaos so that I can make some straight white dudes uncomfortable
I get that people think that's how it is - but that's not what I'm talking about. See the pic for what i'm talking about.
See, it's not a focus on the solution, it's using the problem to make even more problems. I can give personal examples of women using "muh inequality" to their advantage and to slip out of responsibility. It's a shame for all the people who really do suffer from genuine problems.

>>4608144
>Your post just makes it so very obvious that women have hurt and rejected you.
Wow that isn't a typical argument at all. How can I even defend myself against it? Tell you about all my successful relationships and what i've learned during them? I do fine with girls. Of course i've been hurt by them too. What guy hasn't? I don't hate women at all, and they don't hate me either. From my experience, it seems the guys who have the most experience are the ones who are able to see through their bullshit.

>n the long run nothing will have changed
That I agree on.

>>4608149
>It should be "being unhealthy is bad. You deserve a healthy body and should work to gain one
Exactly. Strive to be better. Not for anyone else, just for yourself.
But noooo. that's an offensive message.

>>4608165

This line of argument goes nowhere, you are not going to convince anyone of anything by posting "but who needs logic, really?" Doesn't it make more sense to point out that what this guy is referring to as logic is just a puffed-up impression of his own "common sense"?

>>4608131
There are ways to give a person tools to build strength rather than just LEL TOUGH IT UP BITCH whenever a kid loses in football or whatever.

In fact, positive encouragement, -in conjunction with- expectations, seems much more likely to lead to someone who is well-adjusted.

>I lost, Dad.
>Did you try your best? And I don't just mean during the game. I mean during every single practice.
>Yes.
>In that case, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Now go congratulate him on his win.

vs.
>I lost, Dad.
>Oh, it doesn't matter, kiddo. All that matters is you showed up.

vs.
>I lost, Dad.
>Yeah, I saw you lost, Jimmy. I sat there for two hours and watched you lose.

Clearly valuing actual effort and self-improvement as well as caring about the kid's feelings is better than caring only about the child's feelings or making the child think he or she is not a worthwhile human being if he or she loses.
>>4608183
"Being unhealthy is bad and you deserve to be healthy so you should try to be healthy" is different from "being fat is bad and you should feel bad."

>>4608158
>Consider your worldview is paranoid and confrontational
>Says a dishonest modern supporter of feminism

Coolest of stories. I also wasn't originally talking with you, your rebuttal to that guy was just childish and honestly fucking stupid in general. But of course that's to be expected with your kind.

>>4608165
>If that makes you angry, I understand.
I'm not angry at any of this. I'm just discussing. It bothers me when people throw really cliche arguments around like "you must have gotten rejected" but that's expected.

>Feminists, and much of modern culture, do not believe that Western civilization should be motivated by a quest for strength.
True, but tell me how it isn't logical too pursue strength? It's certainly better than catering to the weak. I'm not that extreme. I don't think the weak have no place, but to constantly lower the bard to make people feel good is a huge issue.
I am not emotionally saying feminism is a problem, I'm saying logically it's a problem and it's logically a problem because it's motivated by emotions.

>>4608183

I'm sure that you would love to tell me all about your conquests, but I will save you the effort of typing it up. Your experience does not amount to shit, and you are all het up over fuck nothing. But, you know, go on believing in your culture-war Ahriman if it makes you feel better.

ps. you sound fat too

>>4608165
>Misrepresent poster
>Patronize
>Attack strawman
>Logic apparently = strength now because feels
>Obligatory go back to /pol/

Man, you commies are fucking stupid. It's a basically a rule unless you're actually the one leading along useless idiots.

>>4608189
>"Being unhealthy is bad and you deserve to be healthy so you should try to be healthy" is different from "being fat is bad and you should feel bad."
Do you think I don't know that? Do you think that's what I'm saying? I agree with your posts.

>>4608186
I was going to pull from Hume on how reason is slave to the passions. Then he took it a different route. Never meant to imply "but who needs logic, really?". Logic is an excellent tool.

>point out that what this guy is referring to as logic is just a puffed-up impression of his own "common sense"?
Isn't this exactly what I said?

>>4608201
I'm not convinced that feminism is "motivated by emotions" any more than any other ideology is.

>>4608207
Alright. You seemed to be denigrating the idea that fat people shouldn't feel bad at one point.

>>4608204
>ps. you sound fat too
oh god damn that made me laugh.

again, how can I defend myself against this?
I knew you would say my experience doesn't amount to shit, and my experience also doesn't reflect the general population blah blah

That's so cliche and pointless.
My experience means a lot, but what means more is what I've gained and learned through them.

As for my weight, I could take a pic right now and upload it. You'd see a 6'2 with a model's face, and reasonably fit body.

But then you could say that I could never understand women because being 6'2 and good looking makes my experiences different.

>>4608183
>nah
Won't lie, im on my phone and don't feel like doing any research, but like that other guy said, applying any one unified goal, especially one as radical as women>men, onto feminism, is a fallacy
Only my experience, and that's also a fallacy and may in fact not represent the movement etc etc, but I've never encountered a rational feminist who really wanted that as a goal (I've been involved in a few groups/organizations of varying size). A few crazies who did, but were vastly outnumbered by reasonable people who just wanted people to not be hurt and sought equality as a way to ensure that

>>4608201
>It bothers me when people throw really cliche arguments around like "you must have gotten rejected" but that's expected.

I was saying it can be frustrating to disagree with the modern culture of acceptance of everything. People will often suggest that you are an asshole, or a person who doesn't wish to be accepting of others, when all you wish is to have a unified culture that is strong.

BUT

This is not a logical stance, this is an opinion.
I cannot argue with you on a logical basis that it isn't logical to pursue strength.
You have offered no argument to support "it is logical to pursue strength" and thus I have nothing to disprove.

If anything it is logical to suffer from existential crises for the rest of your life.

>>4608227
>applying any one unified goal
That is my biggest issue. If there is no goal, no objective, what exactly is the point?
That's pretty much what I said in my very first post.

76 cents on the dollar

>>4608237
>all you wish is to have a unified culture that is strong.
That's what I want too.
And we'll never have that in our current condition and way of thinking. We can't keep making exceptions and giving more freedom.
There has to be a line, and that line needs to come from an overall logical perspective. People need to work together an BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

>This is not a logical stance, this is an opinion.
Well.. I feel that it makes sense from a logical perspective, but yea I get what you mean.
We don't need to discuss it.

>>4608251
Now that is seems the discussion is done, it's clear that I wasn't wrong in my initial thinking, though that depends on an opinion about the overall pursuit of society.

>>4608251
>That's what I want too.

I don't actually agree with you, I just know how you feel because I've felt that way before. I now agree with the liberals.

My reasons for this are primarily that I think individual freedom actually creates a better society, although not a unified one. I do not see the benefit in modern times of having a unified culture. I also do not think that we need strength. I think we need understanding of the human drive.

I don't think this can be argued in a logical way, we're dealing with the dialectic here, and I wouldn't know where to begin as I am not very well versed in sociology. I can say however, that I fully support you in your attempts to make the West stronger, good luck.

>>4608285
>I think we need understanding of the human drive.
Which we also aren't doing by constantly catering to weaknesses fueled by feminism.

I think it's actually impossible to "understand" the human drive, especially in our feminized society, because that implies generalizations and many people hate being put into a box.

See, if you say "humans are motivated by ____"
>no that's offensive. i'm not like that at all. women aren't all the same you know.

Btw, if we did discuss the human drive we would have to separate into male and female, as men are women are driven by different things.
That ALSO goes against feminism.
>so you're saying that men are better?
>"no, i'm saying men and women have certain sets of strengths. there is no strongest sex."
>not all women are the same you misogynist.

>>4608280
Your thinking is so ingrained that you're actually interpreting people as agreeing with you who aren't. This has happened several times this thread.

How does it feel to live in a world so small?

>>4608299
I am saying that I recognize the main difference of opinion stems from a fundamental difference that can't ever be agreed upon.

I didn't say people agreed with me, I said that I wasn't wrong.

How does it feel to live in a world so confusing?

>>4608213
It's not so much that they're inherently more emotional, but emotional arguments are more successful as they relate to women's issues, and as a result there's a perverse incentive to make more. Even among academia and well educated judges, the last place where myths should be unquestioned.

>>4608311
Couldn't you argue that emotional arguments have more affect to women because inherently more emotional?

Seems like they go hand in hand.

I understand why you CAN'T say "inherently" in discussions about gender because thats sexist misogyny PUA ad all that, but let's forget about that temporarily.

>>4608298
Everything you just said fits not at all with what feminism has strove for and what it still strives for. In fact many of the things you're presenting here as being "against feminism" are specific tenets of feminism.

>as men and women are driven by different things.
That ALSO goes against feminism.

Feminism is specifically the goal to present the feminine opinion in the public sphere. It is necessarily different from the male opinion. That is a core tenet of feminism. Male and female ARE DIFFERENT, female has NOT been represented or understood throughout history, female should get represented and understood. Anyone who presents it as men and women are the same has not lived very long or understood much of anything in their life.

>See, if you say "humans are motivated by ____"
This is literally all of philosophy and it is not offensive in the least to anyone who isn't a fucking retard. You're surrounded by idiots and your opinion of movements has been shaped by idiots who use these movements as an excuse to abuse others who are stupider than they are.

Go read some good books. Fuck your dumb friends.

>>4608327
But women aren't inherently more emotional, it's just that being emotional is a more successful life strategy for women then men so more women are going to go with it from an early age.

>>4608328
>You're surrounded by idiots and your opinion of movements has been shaped by idiots who use these movements as an excuse to abuse others who are stupider than they are.
Perhaps you are giving human beings too much credit.

>Feminism is specifically the goal to present the feminine opinion in the public sphere.
But that is a paradox, because women "aren't all the same" and in fact, their opinions typically cancel each other out:
To give women representation is disrespectful because it's objectifying women. To portray women in a heroic role is disrespectful because it's only for sex appeal. To have a non sexy woman in a heroic role is disrespectful because women shouldn't have to be ashamed to be attractive.
etc.

I realize it goes deeper than women's depictions in media, but the same paradoxes present themselves.

>>4608346
Hmm I can see that.
But I don't know for sure, if it's even possible to know.
How can you know they aren't inherently more emotional?
Doesn't estrogen cause people to become more emotional?

>>4608112
>portrait of degeneracy

I think that in some respects, feminism has become an ideology. A lot of people seem to believe that men and women are the same! They aren't!

>>4608346
While I agree with your reasoning, biological factors like differing amyglada size and hormone levels should have some kind of effect on "emotionality."

>>4608367
Well I'm a woman and I'm less emotional than a lot of guys.

Estrogen makes you more sensitive to emotion, yes, but not to the point of making you irrational or forcing you to break down in sobs. Just testosterone doesn't force you to go around curb stomping children and it doesn't really cloud your rationality most of the time either.

>>4607541
I'm very glad there are people like you.
not even fucking ironically.

>>4608379
I know for certain that one side is conflating equivalence with equality, but I'm not sure which.

>>4608381
What do you think feminism should be?
I want a /lit/ poster's and female perspective because I don't want to pore through some enormous radfem manifesto or go to le reddit/srs or god forbid tumblr. At least some people here arent stupid- so please, tell me, what feminism means and what some short term goals are for you

>>4608381
Here is what I think.
It isn't that women's emotions make them irrational, it's that they allow them to rationalize things that shouldn't be rationalized. There is difference.

PS are you the person who said I sounded fat?
It's ok to admit it.

>>4608363
>To give women representation is disrespectful because it's objectifying women.
>To portray women in a heroic role is disrespectful because it's only for sex appeal.
>To have a non sexy woman in a heroic role is disrespectful because women shouldn't have to be ashamed to be attractive.
You want feminism to be simple to understand? There are lots of different opinions about how women should act. Feminism gives them an arena by which to discuss these things. The pill, suffrage, all of these things are recent changes that change how women act in public, so they have to have some time to figure that all out.

I think I don't really understand your problem anymore.

>>4608389

No, I'm a man.

>>4608389
It should have been pretty obvious that that was a dude, dude.

>>4608393
be honest, it was the pill that changed everything. we like to pretend that we're contemplative moral beings, but the truth is that the great majority of us are ruthless pragmatists. Such is the legacy of the industrial revolution.

>>4608386
Who knows, feminism is just this thing that has consequences. A lot of these consequences suck. Some are pretty good

It does make the mistake of naively cheering on women and constantly booing men to an irrational level.

>>4608386
>What do you think feminism should be?
Idealistically, it should be what de Beauvoir said: striving for a world where men and women are brothers. Other than that, feminism should be theory that examines and critiques gender as a tool used in behavior, strategies and alliances formed for the intensification of power.

>>4608389
Rationalizing what shouldn't be rationalized was done quite a bit by men of power, historically speaking.

I didn't, I wouldn't say anything that stupid. I'm Feminister.

>>4608399
>Rationalizing what shouldn't be rationalized was done quite a bit by men of power, historically speaking.

This is a large key to feminism that should be taken more seriously. It's not that men are inferior, it's that men aren't always superior and make some bad mistakes.

But sometimes superiorities are clear cut, no one same actually thinks that men aren't superior at lifting heavy things

>>4608397
Marriage was nothing but pragmatism before the Industrial Revolution.

>>4608397
less pregnancies = more time to think
more sex = more power
I would agree with you.

>>4608399
>striving for a world where men and women are brothers
Is this really what you believe?

>>4608410
Sure, physical strength was addressed by de Beauvoir, but that's not a major issue off feminism. As technology intensifies, strength becomes less relevant and feminism becomes more relevant. In ages where strength was one's most important asset, men were very much superior to women in many capacities, but we are no longer in such an age.

>>4608417
Yes. Women are often irrational or vacuous because, as I've said before, that is an effective strategy for them to deal with social life. And so you see feminists who are irrational or vacuous and you say, "Hah, must be due to feminism!" but that's really not the case. Plenty of women play act being all sorts of things for the sake of their peer group, and that's all irrational feminists are really doing.

>>4608399
>Rationalizing what shouldn't be rationalized was done quite a bit by men of power, historically speaking.
I'm talking about something very different.
For example, when a girl cheats on a guy she has "good" reasons to do it in her mind. Her BF wasn't giving her enough attention, or she was drunk, or she was thinking about leaving her BF anyway. You won't hear her say "It's my fault"

Now of course you are going to tell me I'm sexist and not all women are like that, and most importantly, some men do the same thing, but I already know there are exceptions.

Men don't rationalize the excuses, they just give them. Women believe the ridiculously broken and contradictory logic needed to justify doing whatever her “feelings” compel her to.

>>4608399
> striving for a world where men and women are brothers.
See, feminister i've told you this before, and this is what you can never admit to: Men and women can not live as brothers. Men are constantly competing for women, and women are constantly striving to show they are the best other women. This is HUMAN NATURE, fueled by our reproductive drives.
You always cry at the thought of "feminine nature" but it's undeniable.
Next you're going to say sex is a negotiation.
Next you're going that there are no such thing as "alpha" traits.
Next you're going to tell me women aren't hypergamous by nature.

I'm starting to believe maybe it's you who has a significant lack of inexperience, and far too many preconceived notions.

>>4608429
Also, implying men and women are brothers is incredibly misogynistic. Why can't men and women be sisters?

You don't understand women at all.
You only understand the male perspective, and what women tell you about women.

>>4608429
All I'm hearing from you is some HOT OPINIONS but no hard data to back it up. You need to qualify what you say.

>>4608429
I've never known a woman to try to rationalize cheating, even when she was going the cheating. So you and I have divergent experiences here.

>I'm starting to believe maybe it's you who has a significant lack of inexperience, and far too many preconceived notions.
The notion was coined by de Beauvoir and she was hardly inexperienced. I haven't had a ton of sexual partners, but that's mostly because I'm easy to get along with and I like sex a lot so relationships don't deteriorate with me very fast.

Even friendship can often involve jealousy, I don't expect it's something that will ever disappear, if that's what you mean.

>>4608432
I AM A WOMAN YOU SILLY GOOSE

>>4608429
>HUMAN NATURE
>"alpha" traits
>hypergamous

What unscientific horseshit

>>4608427
You miss my core objection (which I spoke of poorly).

Why do you want women to become men? Does this not destroy both genders?

>>4608450
I agree.
Polygamy is common in unga bunga cultures, but higher cultures develop monogamy for the greater intelligence (and following, technology and power) that it fosters. Besides this, on a personal, interior level- it takes a lifetime to scratch the surface of another person's soul. Believing that you can handle two hearts is repulsive. It makes love into a crowd.

>>4608452
I'd prefer gender by something acquired later in life, if acquired at all, rather than shoved on you at birth.

>>4608439
Oh OK, let's play this game.
How about you provide hard data to prove I'm wrong?

How about you disregard you've ever read that wasn't verified by a peer reviewed study. Goodbye Aristotle, goodbye Plato, goodbye any form of abstract thought.

HOWEVER:
>"alpha" traits
>hypergamous
THESE can be proven though a number of scientific studies, though the fact you can't believe that simply proves that the "data" isn't "hard" enough to ever satisfy you.

>>4608445
Oh are you?

>>4608460
I think that's a very humanist ideal, and very admirable! But I also think it's a bit too absolute. Studies have shown that children, even in a cultural vacuum, will gravitate to "stereotypical" toys. Boys tend to play with cars and girls tend to play with dolls.
Now, this probably doesn't excuse the cultural training that goes on, but it does show that perfect mental identity between genders is impossible.

>>4608462
>Oh are you?
Yes, and female from birth, so please don't give me nonsense about how I don't know women.

>>4608450
>>>HUMAN NATURE
>>unscientific
Yes. As any good scoolman knows, the body is controlled by a ghost that is not subject to the laws of physics. Therefore the mind is not biological, and evolution only effects humans from the neck down. Which is a relief, because that means the afterlife is real!!!

>>4608464
>yfw you realize "boy dolls" are just called "action figures"
>yfw a baby boy wouldn't even know wtf a car was

>>4608462
idk what studies can prove hypergamy... the great majority of cultures have a system of polygyny.

And what's the difference between hyper and poly as a suffix, lol? Does that just mean that women have more partners than men? Isn't that kind of a zero sum game?

>>4608465
You clearly don't if you truly believe we can live together as brothers, and that hypergamy is a myth.

I understand WHY women can't admit to hypergamy, but come on... Do you even understand what it is? or do you equate it to me calling all women sluts?

That's typically the response I get.

>>4608464
link to study plos

>>4608462
You're making the positive claims, the burden of proof is on you, shitbird.

>"alpha" traits
>THESE can be proven though a number of scientific studies

I can guarantee you that no social scientist uses the terms "alpha", "beta", etc. to describe people as you want to

>>4608470
I equate it with capitalism.

>>4608468
Ha
so a "system" is enough to cancel out biological imperatives?

You serious?

We have a system in America that prevents people from smoking weed. That means nobody wants to get high.

>>4608467
http://www.livescience.com/22677-girls-dolls-boys-toy-trucks.html

This is the ideology I'm talking about. People assume that men and women are essentially mentally identical, and that simply isn't the case!

I don't mean to try to justify the crimes against women that have gone on for ages and are going on today- these studies don't justify anything. I only put them forth to try to show you that the presupposition that men and women have a biologically identical interior life is not a perfect eternal rule.

Excuse my vitrol

>>4608466
Just because a system is deterministic doesn't mean it's predictable

>>4608473
>>4608477
again, a very minor difference

>>4608474
>people as you want to
How do I want to?
I know there is A LOT more to life and sex than aloha and beta, and i also know that people can be alpha in one way, and beta in another etc.
I don't classify people as alpha and beta, or sigma, omega, etc. That depends on the people you are around.

What I said was alpha TRAITS, which have plenty of positive social purposes.

>>4608477
A: Monkeys can't don't even understand what those are toys of, so I don't see how that means anything.

B: You don't see me using studies of bonobos to show that humans are naturally matriarchal.

>>4608476
I guess that was kind of naïve for me to say, but you still haven't posted a study proving what I guess you could call "hyperandry"

>>4608477
That study always kinda bothered me. I mean, the point they were trying to make was boys, gravitating towards cars, were more things-oriented, where girls, with dolls, were more "people" oriented. But boys play with action figures and girls play with toy houses.

>>4608479
Biological determinism is rejected by most of the scientific community.

>>4608488
Alright, i'll search for some. I don't have anything bookmarked.

I already know you'll be able to rationalize it to somehow not be scientific enough, but whatever.

>>4608483
I'm almost positive that there isn't a single relevant trait theory of personality psychology that uses the word "alpha"

>>4608487
You are right, it's always a little specious to compare animal societies with human societies (even when they seem close relatives!)
A little further down in the article are some details about studies performed on human infants.

>>4608477
>3- and 4-month-old boys' testosterone levels correlated with how much more time they spent looking at male-typical toys

That raises a question, though - should we keep trying to force low-testosterone males into typical gender roles?

>>4608491
A study with toy houses and action figures would be very interesting!

>>4608474
>>4608496
It's just a slang word, like "cool" or "autistic"

>>4608508
Any of you fuckers gets published work on this before me I'll be real mad

>>4608500
Yeah, hahaha. Sorry, I just read that.

Does it list the sample size anywhere?

Also, the part at the end that starts with "This is purely speculative" kinda annoyed me: if it's purely speculative,then don't include it with an article on the study!

>>4608510
referring to the 4chan usage of autism, of course, not the medical term

>>4608496
You can call it what you want, and disregard things for whatever reasons you want, but while im looking for scientific data, watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCYVCI9NGUU

This should be a pretty good indication of what i'm talking about, but I know you'll be able to find some easy flaw to dismiss every idea from your mind.

>>4608510
To me, it is indicative of exactly the kind of narrow, limited understanding of people, male and female and whatever, that feminism and more generally humanism needs to address.

>>4608503
I don't have any problem with letting children play with the toys that they want to play with.

I live in a very "progressive" area, so I can sometimes have a strange perspective on things. From my viewpoint, what often happens in society can be modeled from a kind of Hegelian perspective.

First there is the thesis - the idea that all boys must always act one way and all girls must always act another. This can sometimes be restrictive and cause unnecessary harm.

Then (much later) comes the antithesis - boys and girls are identical, and should be made to play with "opposite gender" toys, as a way of undoing the damage. As a young boy, I was given a book called "William's Doll", which had this message. The story was about a boy who played with a doll, and it reinforced the idea that such a thing was a perfectly natural thing to do. Though I had not been socially programmed with "male traits" (indeed, my parents were trying to convince me to play with dolls!), I recall finding the story distasteful, and preferred building LEGO spaceships to playing dolls.

Hopefully, I think, we will one day arrive at the synthesis - that boys and girls (and men and women) should not be forced into any roles same-gendered,or opposite-gendered!

Though rare, I've sometimes read of women who wish to be housewives, who feel pressured to pursue a career they don't want. As absurd as it sounds (first as tragedy then as farce), I think this sort of thing will build up for a while until we reach a point where nobody will be told what they may and may not do.
This, I think, will lead to some peace at last between the sexes at large- though I think the wonder and agony of heterosexual love will never be obviated, and that it shouldn't be.

>>4608519
I mean- yeah I will criticize it's a TV SHOW!!!! give me a study! it's not that hard... just google aggressive tendencies sexual attraction or something. I don't have 45 minutes anyway

>>4608543
I'm making a list, but the vide is proof in action.
I know you cant' take a TV show at face value, but if are looking out of curiosity, and not simply to prove me wrong, it's worth watching. Just watch a little bit.

>>4608539


>until we reach a point where nobody will be told what they may and may not do.

neither possible nor desirable, your mere existence is an imposition by degrees on every other being.

p.s. if disparate types of beings (like males or females) differ in even the slightest bit (and survey says, its more than slight), then a *categorical* denunciation of different roles and archetypes in of themselves does not obtain.

>>4608558
You're right, my wording was rhetorical fluff, I mean that, practically, adults won't force children into gender roles that are traditionally concurrent or opposite

>>4607541

jolly good

I enjoyed the lack of interference on your part.

>>4608558
What do you mean by "obtain"?

Do you mean that, because men and women differ, archetypes are, to some extent, justifiable?

I thought about it, and you're right! But what's the use of an archetype when it has even the slightest possibility of harm? All we gain from applying a stereotype to a person is a little respite from judging each person as an exhausting individual. But I think that we can apply these standards to our own children.

>>4608519
OK wait, so, your whole thing is this:
>Feminism is bad because it breeds physically weaker, more feminine people.
>Feminine is bad because it's more subject to emotions over reason
>Look at these shit-flinging monkeys, with the alphas in charge, being paradigms of human reason, and definitely not slave to their base desires and emotions

Do you see how your system of thought isn't internally consistent?

>>4608569


abstraction is how you interelate with reality friend, learn to love it in all its multiplicity, or reroll to another metaphysical plane.

>>4608581
>Do you see how your system of thought isn't internally consistent?
That is a pretty big difference between a woman's rationalizations for her behavior VS human's acting through their biological nature.
To deny that men constantly seek women is straight up stupidity.

I get what you're saying, and watching the video made me cringe because of how lame some of those guys are, but I have an interest in nonverbal communication so I really enjoyed seeing some of that stuff.

Keep watching for how "alpha" body language affects men AND women's behavior.

Hypergamy:
>http://web.archive.org/web/20130206075812/http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
>http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP08390404.pdf
>>http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00025-7/abstract
>
Although, obviously, articles about hypergamy also include proof of alpha traits:

Evidence of alpha traits
>http://phys.org/news194259315.html
>http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00025-7/abstract
>http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/6/1/10
>http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(07)00066-9/abstract

There is a lot more, but most of these articles are just samples and you have to pay for the rest. If you are interested I can link to some THEORY which breaks down the system.

>>4608597
I deny that all men, at all times are constantly seeking women.
I also don't think that women rationalize their behavior more than men, or in a more deficient way than men's.

>>4608603
>I deny that all men, at all times are constantly seeking women.
Yea that's totally what I said. Damn I guess you proved me wrong.

>>4608601
Oh yea and here's a bunch of excerpts and stuff

http://lesswrong.com/lw/h4e/differential_reproduction_for_men_and_women/

Are you guys using hypergamy as a synonym for polygyny?
Stop that, it's confusing.

>>4608615
It's just a fancy way of saying that women in general tend to find wealth more attractive than poverty.

>>4608615
Different things.
Hypergamy is based on opportunism.

A few more:
>http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1143191
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22933455
>http://www.anthro.utah.edu/PDFs/ec_evolanth.pdf

That really should be more than enough evidence, even with the ones you'll disregard for whatever reason.

>>4608615
Actually, they pretty much go hand in hand, and I guess it would have been better to frame the dissuasion using the word polygyny.

Either way, it's undeniable, yet people will constantly deny it.

>>4608624
*frame the disscusion using the word polygyny.

>>4608620
well dang thanks for posting all of those articles i guess i got #rekt

oh wait, except nothing you posted supports your zany theory that almost all of America's problems are caused by the feminist agenda. you're conflating trends observed in human and primate behavior with your own preconceived notions about what masculinity should be and its place in society

>>4608630
haha that wasn't I posted evidence on and you know it. I posted evidence proving women are hypergamous and that alpha traits are legitimate in society.

And you did what I expected you to, and disregarded all of it because you can't handle the truth.

How can I prove that almost all of America's problems are caused by the feminist agenda?
That's too big of a claim to ever prove, and you certainly couldn't test it scientifically.

>you're conflating trends observed in human and primate behavior with your own preconceived notions about what masculinity should be and its place in society
>your own preconceived notions
I went into this years ago not believing a word, but realizing there is a lot of truth to how simply changing your body language can change people's perspective of you.

>what masculinity should be and its place in society
I didn't say anything about any of that.
You are sounding more and more like a mad, mad, cliched, loser with his brain shut off. So stubborn.

That's ok.

>>4608630
Also I wasn't trying to #rek you. Don't be so dramatic. I was just showing some evidence after someone claimed I couldn't.

What bothers me is why guys get so defensive and argumentative about the idea of "alpha" behavior? It doesn't affect anything.
It's just how to world is.

Stop getting so worked up.

What do people who oppose gender being enforced on people suggest we, as a society, should do? Everyone gets to pick a gender when they mature, remaining in a vacuum until then? It's impolite to ask for one's biological gender?

I can't imagine how this would go in any sane way, I'm legit curious.

>>4608639
women being hypergamous could be a reaction to women's own inability to earn as much as men no?
73 cents on the dollar and what not?

>>4608660
wasn't there that PUA who wrote those "How to fuck [country]" but his one for Denmark was "Don't Fuck Denmark" because women in countries where there is a strong social safety net and lesser gender disparity aren't attracted to aggressive, domineering PUA-types

>>4607541

>tfw you'll never be catholic

I want this more than anything. They have it so good.

>>4608657

>inb4 puberty becomes a time for choosing a moniker for your sexuality.

>>4608657
There's no reason why you "have" to choose a gender any more than they "have" to choose whether they're gay or straight or bi.

I'm embarrassed to have read any of this. sf, your argument was dismantled repeatedly. I came into this very impartial; it was really bad mate.

>>4607541

Have mercy upon me, O God, after Thy great goodness
According to the multitude of Thy mercies do away mine offences.
Wash me throughly from my wickedness: and cleanse me from my sin.
For I acknowledge my faults: and my sin is ever before me.
Against Thee only have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that Thou mightest be justified in Thy saying, and clear when Thou art judged.
Behold, I was shapen in wickedness: and in sin hath my mother conceived me.
But lo, Thou requirest truth in the inward parts: and shalt make me to understand wisdom secretly.
Thou shalt purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Thou shalt make me hear of joy and gladness: that the bones which Thou hast broken may rejoice.
Turn Thy face from my sins: and put out all my misdeeds.
Make me a clean heart, O God: and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from Thy presence: and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.
O give me the comfort of Thy help again: and stablish me with Thy free Spirit.
Then shall I teach Thy ways unto the wicked: and sinners shall be converted unto Thee.
Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, Thou that art the God of my health: and my tongue shall sing of Thy righteousness.
Thou shalt open my lips, O Lord: and my mouth shall shew Thy praise.
For Thou desirest no sacrifice, else would I give it Thee: but Thou delightest not in burnt-offerings.
The sacrifice of God is a troubled spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, shalt Thou not despise.
O be favourable and gracious unto Sion: build Thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Then shalt Thou be pleased with the sacrifice of righteousness, with the burnt-offerings and oblations: then shall they offer young bullocks upon Thine altar.

Powerful stuff.

>>4607838
this is sarcasm right?

>chilling with friends
>put morton feldman's second string quartet
>confront myself and my self (as an ontological historical entity) with the mirror of atonality (as a mirror is not an empathic but a reflexive entity, alien to the space and time it reflects and only existing by itself in relation to the other) and realize the boundaries of human thought, comprehension and consciousness
>reach rational ecstasy
>pleb friend gets up and says "what is this silence shit, lmao, put some nirvana"
>get angry at their rockist subaltern consumption conditioned by the structures of power of the imperialist white economies, but contain it
>calm myself down by remembering quotes from finnegans wake, my favorite book since i was a teenager
>mfw can't express myself because i'm a spectator in the society of spectacle

"It is not the slumber of reason which engenders monsters, but vigilant and insomniac rationality. - Gilles Deleuze" - ~Astigmata

>>4608723

>>4608660
Regardless of women being paid more or less, you would be stupid to attribute that to her BIOLOGICAL imperative.

I think it is funny how people want to "blame" hypergamy on something, when it is just a part of existence.
I don't understand why people get offended at the notion of hypergamy either. It's not an insult. I'm not putting women down.

>>4608668
Does one PUAs opinion matter in this thread? Do you associate what i'm saying with PUA? Do you believe I am giving PUA advice?
I'm asking because people who strongly support feminism seem incapable of arguing an opposing view, without mentioning PUA for some reason.

>>4608697
> sf, your argument was dismantled repeatedly
In what way? I really don't see that at all.
I know you will now say something like "that just proves how dumb you are" but I still don't think anyone has dismantled my arguments - only brought up more points, which I've defended.

My overall view isn't something that can ever be proven or disproven - it's much too big of a concept.

>>4608247
Is there any actual recent evidence of this?
It would have to be the SAME position at the SAME company.
Please post proof.

>>4608385
It's actually a big misconception and problem for both sides.
Saying "men and women are different" is easily misinterpreted (by the over emotional) as"men and women should not be treated differently"

I want to see more men understand femininity, and what it means.
I don't think modern feminism actually does that. I think modern feminism is actually against the idea of using "feminine" to describe something. This is most likely do the typical female not wanting to be placed "into a box".

>>4608503
>should we keep trying to force low-testosterone males into typical gender roles?
"We" do not force anyone into any gender roles.
People still complain that we do, but for the most part, in Western society, it is no longer happening.

That is another comment sure to enrage all you cool male feminists, but it's true, regardless.

It is wrong to make one parent raise a child when there are two parents living in the household. If the father is low testosterone to the point of asserting no dominance whatsoever, and instead chooses to idly let his wife run the house, that is a problem. I am not saying a woman can't run a household, but I am saying that a man who sits back doing nothing, is failing as a father - and as a husband.
I'm not saying that a man HAS to be dominant either, but in certain situations he should step to the plate and make a decision.

Greatly anticipating how badly you'll take those points and twist them into something negative.

>>4608690
Here is what I'm talking about.
In 4chan terms, it's the >inb4
>inb4 lets just get rid of genders period. theyre sexist
>inb4 lets cut off all boys penises at birth and ask them if they want it back when they get older

Nobody is denying there are people who identify with a gender different than the one they were "labeled" with - but it is a very small minority of people. Why should we "lower the bar" to assume people are born the "wrong" gender?

This allows people the opportunity to slip in and out of whatever they want when it's convenient. You can pretend that doesn't happen, but it does.

>>4608818
I agree, and I don't see any compelling reason why gender roles are bad and wrong by default. We can gain a better understanding of transgenderism and ease their transition, and that is an ongoing process. Big issues for me today is whether the state should finance it, at what age is it permissible, and so on.

>>4607574
The reason that academia is filled with feminism, queer studies, etc., is literally because the elites want them there in order to subvert culture.
/pol/ is right and it is literally the Jews.

>>4608465
Post tits you slut :-0

>>4608493
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

>>4608857
You are literally retarded. Americans did thuis to themselves

Just want to put it out here that Augustine is looking dashing there, was he even white?

>>4608051
>All made more tragic by the fact that nobody has any real reason to protest changes which feminists desire

I deserve to remain whole.

>>4608925
Modern masculinity is already schizoid and fragmented. If your wholeness relies on unequal power relations that you never earned and certainly don't "deserve," maybe it isn't healthy in the first place.

>>4608493
ok
let me explain you this once
The Scientific Community HATES everything related to post-Heideggerian philosophy or any school of thought indirectly related to social sciences influenced by marx.
This is my personal experience about how scientist thinks.Scientists are very moderate politically and very pragmatic, they almost never go farther beyond reformist egalitarian socialism.

>>4607541

>>4607541

wow OP hot musical taste there brah really impressed with that entry level church chant have some vivaldi and monteverdi step it up broheim


Antonio Vivaldi - Largo from Nisi Dominus performed by Philippe Jaroussky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVgItFV0kBY

Claudio Monteverdi - Magnificat (Excerpt from his Vespers of 1610)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RajAq0Yd-s4

>>4608897
Augustine was a Berber.
Berbers aren't consider "white" today because they are muslim hence inassimilable, but actually you wouldn't make the difference with southern Italians, at worst (some North Africans like to pretend they're Italians).
It is said that Augustine had specifically Kabyle roots, like Zidane, and honestly most Kabyles are whiter than many European whites.

Lots of claims that people don't know what feminism is in this thread, which makes me wonder, if feminism is such an academic and misunderstood field what use does it have to the majority of people, who certainly won't enquire into it in any real depth and will instead settle on the same, or at least equally distorted, surface interpretations as the people that are being ridiculed in this thread?

>Sitting in my temple annex contemplating the Terror and Glory of Our Lord & Savior Chalchiuhtlicue
>Listening to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiFljznibKo
>Hear a rabble outside my window
>Lift up the flap of toddler skin and peer out upon the blood field
>There are Franciscans hosting a "slam prayer" competition
>Pause my music to listen
>Themes of asceticism, spiritual egalitarianism, and all-consuming love bombard my mournful ears
>Draw my blinds and retreat back to my sober contemplations on the horror and jealousy of Her Drowned Omnipotence

>>4607574
Nah bruh

Universities used to be a place where people with legitemate interest in studying and researching went to have lots of fun studying and researching because that's what they liked to do. Parties with similar minded people were part of the fun.

Now everyone goes to college, including a whole lot of people who are bored by Shakespeare and Milton, so the content has changed to accommodate them. You're half right

>Sitting in my scroll room contemplating the Righteous Path outlined by Our Master Confucius
>Listening to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kk6K_5fxZs
>Hear a rabble outside my window
>Slide paper door and peer out upon the courtyard
>There are Taoists hosting a "poetry slam" competition
>Pause my music to listen
>Themes of effortless action, oneness, and cultivated simplicity bombard my mournful ears
>Draw my door and retreat back to my sober contemplations on the harmony and propriety of the Four Books and Five Classics

>>4607690
You might be speaking rationally, but you're expressing thoughts that come from heavy emotional bias.

If you're interested in that and curious, research it and try to understand, but as others have said your premise that problems in America are caused entirely by the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is ridiculous and obviously uninformed.

>>4610082
>caused entirely
not one hundred percent of problems, clearly.
but many problems stem from that mentality.

>you're expressing thoughts that come from heavy emotional bias.
I don't know about this one. I really don't think it's true. I know why you would think that, and I know it holds true for many people, but not me. I don't have as much emotion invested as you may think.

>>4610087
>but many problems stem from that mentality

Name all the 'major problems' in the United States that are being caused by feminism.

I'll assume that the current economic downturn, the bedding of special interests with political leaders, the continued practice of gerrymandering, and an over-reaching intelligence community are all either 'minor problems' or 'problems that actually aren't cause by feminism.'

>>4610041
>>4610080

>>4610080

>Sitting in my library contemplating the Forms
>Listening to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm2Pn_8Oxww
>Hear a rabble outside my window
>Lift my goatskin curtain and peer out upon the market
>There are Aristotelians hosting a "syllogism slam" competition
>Pause my music to listen
>Themes of immanent forms, actualoty and potentiality bombard my enlightened ears
>Draw my curtain and retreat back to my sober contemplations on the Form of the Good and correct theoria

>>4610130
HA it's so crazy talking to people sometimes.
You said many problems weren't caused by the "everybody gets a trophy mentality" which I disagreed with. Your response to that was to ask me how many problems are caused by feminism.

Yes, I attribute the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality to feminism, but at this point it is unrelated because we are discussing how the "trophy" idea is a problem.

You know what i'm talking about.
What are you going to say in your next post?
"Tell me how PUA isn't sexist?"
Then
"Tell me why you think all women are sluts"

Don't be like that.
Do you think that the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality is a source of many problems in current Western society?

That is the only question right now.

>>4610164

Argue for your position, please.

>>4610164
>Do you think that the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality is a source of many problems in current Western society?
You have to give a concrete example of this mentality in practice and why it causes problems, something feminists have actually done and not something you merely attribute to them. People can't answer such a vague question unless they already have strong feelings on the issue.

>Sitting in my garret contemplating the Utopian Equality and Fraternity outlined by Our Lord and Savior Marx
>Listening to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_o9HkYCtQs
>Hear a rabble outside my window
>Finger aside the rag over my window and peer out upon the cobblestone court
>There are National Socialists hosting a "Jewish face slam" competition
>Pause my music to listen
>Themes of nationalism, racial purity, and völkisch solidarity bombard my mournful ears
>Draw my blinds and retreat back to my sober contemplations on the material necessity of a proletarian revolution

>>4610170
See the thread.
I already explained it for like 1000 posts.

Basically, it constantly lowers the bar instead of teaching people to strive to be better. I attribute ideas like "fat acceptance" to the same mentality, because, while at the surface it's telling people to not hate fat people, the reality is working to make being fat acceptable, which it should not be - you don't have to be ashamed of being fat, but you shouldn't embrace it either.
We should not change the "standard" to fit to YOUR personal body type, etc.
You don't have to be ashamed you lost the race, but you shouldn't be content with being a loser, etc.

This has significant affects on our society as a whole, because it removes accountability, and personal responsibility. It's become too easy to blame others for your own personal problems, and it's taking your personal problems and making them everyone else's problems.
People still feel entitled to everything, but also don't want to give anything up. Our society is only enforcing these ideas, and is getting to a point of no return.

It takes legitimate problems like persecution, and cheapens and lowers it down to a level where NOTHING can ever simply be "accepted". Everything has to be a choice, everyone has to be an individual. Instead of acknowledging that a large majority of people will be born under the "wrong" gender, and SOME people won't be - which we need to understand and make exceptions for as needed - instead, we must assume that EVERYONE is born under the wrong gender.

>>4610218
At this point we aren't talking about feminism, which, if you were paying attention, you would have known. See this:
>>4610164

>>4610164
I'm not the person you've been talking to.

So, I'll ask again, please list and explain the 'major problems' feminism has caused the United States.

>>4610231
By the way, consider the photo in this post for an idea of the mentality I'm talking about.
>>4608183
You may not think it's a big deal, but it is, and it is an idea where we are headed.

>>4610231

If I wanted to see you ramble about your theory without providing support for it, I'd read every other post you've made in the thread. ARGUE for your position, don't just throw your position out there and expect everybody else to go along with it. This is why people in the thread have been accusing you of being a fat insecure virgin or appealing to emotion in lieu of logic, because you have not provided any rational support for your theory about why the West is fucked because feminism.

>>4610237

This doesn't work as an argument in the slightest. YOU may think that it is bad for people to think that one should be allowed to determine one's own gender, but if you think so, you need to establish using real reasons why that is the case - don't just assume that it is agreed. As it is, you sound like you expect everyone to be fucking outraged that some people think one should determine one's own gender identity irrespective of sex. Why should we be outraged? Who gives a fuck, is what I'm asking?

>>4610233
Right now, I want to make a different point.
I want to see if we can reach an agreement that the "trophy" situation is a serious problem.

I know my view seem very extreme, and especially big. It's not something I can just explain without relating some other factors first.

I also fully accept that nobody will change their views in the discussion, but that's just how these issues go. I've seen male feminists realize the flaws in their mentality, but i've never seen the reverse, and it's certainly rare.

For me to say feminism is a problem makes it easy for people like you to say I think there is nothing positive in feminism, but I don't think that at all. I just we need to be more aware of certain elements of the bigger picture.

>>4610262

Why do YOU think that the "trophy situation" is a serious problem? Please use examples from real life to support your claim, as opposed to glittering generalities about how it robs fat people of the will to become skinny.

>>4610255
>This is why people in the thread have been accusing you of being a fat insecure virgin or appealing to emotion in lieu of logic
That's simply part of the territory.
Personally, I think guys who are very pro feminist must not have a lot of real relationship experience, for several reasons and girls who are pro feminist are simply biased.
But it would be stupid to bring those thoughts up, because assumptions aren't always true.

Another thing is that we would then need to determine what would qualify a person to be able to speak on these issues at all.
If I was fat I couldn't understand women?
If you have only dated two girls and are currently in a LTR with a girl you love you couldn't possibly understand women?

We couldn't.

So don't.

PS you really don't want to go down that road anyway.

>>4610270
I seriously just said that.
>
It takes legitimate problems like persecution, and cheapens and lowers it down to a level where NOTHING can ever simply be "accepted". Everything has to be a choice, everyone has to be an individual. Instead of acknowledging that a large majority of people will be unaffected we must take the lowest common denominator and appeal to that.

Now, instead of doing the smart thing and saying "I disagree and here's why"
You'll say "but that doesnt PROVE anything, that's your opinion, we can't ESTABLISH it's a problem"

I explained my side. Are you going to argue it or just tell me I didn't explain it?

>>4610281

Oh for god's sake, you really don't get how foolish you are making yourself look, do you? If someone tells you that your arguments are not grounded in logic but the emotions of a bitter virgin, the sensible thing to do is to provide a logical support for your argument, not accuse your opponent of being a bitter virgin.

>>4610288

You are claiming that this problem exists, but I don't see any problem whatever. I'll note that you didn't respond to my request to use real-world evidence to support your claims at all, nor my request to argue your theory. I know that you've "explained your side", but what you have not done is give me any reason to give your side credence. That's what argumentation is about. You don't just get to say "i've identified the problem with society and here's the ideological cause of it, but i won't tell you what problems are actually caused by that ideology or explain why they are problems" and be taken seriously. What can be claimed gratuitously can be gratuitously dismissed.

>>4610231
I thought that somewhere you said feminists were responsible for that mentality, sorry if I was mistaken. But the general feminist agenda of "acceptance" (I don't know what that means but I guess it's related to whatever the trophy mentality is) doesn't have to be entirely affirmative. If affirming differences is harmful for society on the individual level, we can at least make living in society easier for such people. You seem capable of making this distinction unless you think feminism has positive aspects in some other way, but you have to actually carry it through if you want people to take you seriously.

>>4610300
Yea, I just accused you of being a virgin. That's totally what I did.
ACTUALLY what I did is agree with what you just - it would be dumb to accuse my opponent of anything.

However, I also understand the futility in explaining my relationship experience, because what does that mean?
See, I have been in many relationships, from one night stands to open relationships, to two year committed relationships. I've been heart broken, I've been in love, etc. If I said I had two GFs right now, and looking to expand, that's open for you to attack in some way.

If you said you are in love with the perfect girl and you love her forever, that's room for me to call you out. If you said you were a virgin, that's room for me to call you out.
But the TRUTH is that none of these things should be considered because it's too easy to warp it either way. I don't think a virgin has any room to talk about women's nature, but then who does?

You don't need to answer, I think it's clear we both agree.

I'm not asking you to post about your experiences, and to post about mine would be pointless as well.

>>4610312
>feminists were responsible for that mentality
I believe it can be TRACED back to not feminism, but a society that has been feminized, though there would be not concrete way to prove that - on either side.
Really, that's why this "trophy" thing is an important point of discussion to me. I don't see it as positive, and I do see it as a serious problem, whether it's connected to feminism at all.
I want society to better. I want to see our future generations truly be comfortable with their gender and sex and right now we are only making things worse.

Now I'm gonna need to BACK THAT UP WITH EVIDENCE AND SCIENTIFIC PROOF but i have stuff to do.
Maybe later.

>>4610358

>Now I'm gonna need to BACK THAT UP WITH EVIDENCE AND SCIENTIFIC PROOF but i have stuff to do.

Sure you do.

>>4610372
i'll be back.
but hopefully not for a long time.

>>4610225
>"Jewish face slam"

>>4610358
>but a society that has been feminized,

lol?

>>4608155
I'm biologically male but identify as a velociraptor so stop calling the police when I eat your children and pets you CIS scum

/lit/ can sometimes really make me laugh

thanks guys

OP made me laugh so hard