/lit/ - Literature

>Jared Diamond

>I always knew racism was stupid and wrong, but thanks to this book, I now know WHY it's stupid and wrong.

So how did you know it was stupid and wrong before you found out why?

>>4526287
>implying I need reasons to know why stormfags are wrong

>>4526298
Stormfags? Accepting a conclusion without understanding the rationale behind it is ridiculous. Of course, I say this without explaining my rationale.

>>4526287
Same way a child born to atheist parents knows theism is dumb.

>>4526305

>>4526305
So, he knows nothing, and can only recite ideology?

>>4526305
The same way a child born to muslim parents knows Allah is great and Muhammed shouldn't be made fun of.

>>4526311
Right, but wrong tense. He *was* reciting received ideology, *now* he has reason.

>Africa didn't have domesticable animals

Neither did Europe to begin with, animals are tamed over generations of breeding, not immediately.

>>4526321
Who, OP? It's more likely that he would accept any reason that justified his worldview. Confirmation bias.

Jared Diamond is a Jew.

>>4526309
Oh no need to tip your insincerity at me.
The implication is that this child doesn't know anything for certain till it is reenforced by secondary sources. Read between the lines, theist.
Being born into Christianity was hindrance.

>>4526342
I converted to Christianity after spending the first 20 odd years of my life as an atheist.

Come at me.

>>4526342
If you want to maintain any kind of proficient discourse, it'd be for the best if you weren't so pugnacious in your replies, though I'm sure it's spite you want, not discussion.

I watched the video for that last year in school. I'm not convinced. Whites were still the ones who decided to stop living in mud and walk somewhere else.

>>4526354
I don't know if that makes whites superior though.

>>4526333
Opinion disregarded then.

The simplest explanation is the most likely.

And the simplest explanation is that some ethnic groups/races have genetic differences that include higher propensity for intelligence and problem solving, while others do not.

>>4526355
>I like living in mud and filth in horrible conditions
>I don't, and my decisions moved the human race forward leaps and bounds

Yeah man, I think blacks can run faster, they must be better.

>>4526326
>captivity and domestication are the same thing

>>4526361
It's not necessarily genetics. Social upbringing is hugely important, maybe even more so than genetics, in most cases.

>>4526361
>The simplest explanation is the most likely.
dat sum pleb version of occam's razor?

>>4526361
Thats like saying "I think Mountain Lions have a higher propensity for intelligence than Panthers"

>>4526355
more successful though.

Even if whites aren't superior they certainly did better. (What qualifies as "better" is obviously subjected but you know what I mean.

>>4526276
I don't have any sources on me but I'm pretty sure there's sources that refute this book and suggest that whites are superior in ways. (at least intellectually). I haven't looked too much into it but before just tossing the possibility aside because it's what you're comfortable with is no reason not to research.

>>4526369
it's literally occam's razor

>>4526327
True, but in this situation he just happens to be correct. To be racist, you have to believe that there is an objective system of values. Values can only be subjective. I haven't read the book, so it's entirely possible (and judging from the subject matter, quite likely) that he's right for the wrong reasons - but he's still right.

>>4526373
That depends, do Mountain Lions have demonstrably more complex routines and activities than Panthers?

>>4526311
He knows the truth but he doesn't know why.

>>4526316
Not the same.

>>4526351
You were an agnostic the whole time. Now you are willfully ignorant. I can only hope that you aren't a fundie or will raise any fundies. Enjoy

>>4526353
Were you the hat tipper?
Doesn't matter. I'm going to go read now (About Christians as a matter of fact)

>>4526377
>not the same

Solid refutation comrade

These stupid Christians are ruining our communist paradise!

>>4526375
#yolo

>>4526374
Yeah, but being more successful is no justification for the kind of racism that dehumanizes and subjugates less successful peoples. And I say "less successful" while keeping the Aztecs, Chinese, and Cherokee in mind.

>>4526386
Depending on the kind of future you want for the human race, it is justification.

>>4526377
I was not the hat tipper.

>>4526381
What routines and activities do whites partake in with a high enough percentage above blacks that it can be considered a "general propensity for higher intelligence"?

>>4526384
>Implying I need to refute Allah

Or any of it. Been done. Out.

>>4526388
not the one you replied.

>>4526386
I agree. But I do think that it should at least be considered (I fully believe it's true) That there is inherent differences in races.

I always knew God was real and created the world, but thanks to this book, I now know WHY he's real and created the world.

>>4526388
No, it isn't. Whites were more successful. Whites took over the (western) world. Alright. That's fine. But racism and slavery are unrelated, disgusting things.

>>4526397
Two different races can be inherently different and inherently equal.

>>4526399
That is a horribly extraneous and entirely un-funny comparison.

>>4526392
Why do you keep saying "whites"?

Anyway. how about the following?

>building spaceships
>inventing medicines
>inventing in general
>exploring

>>4526404
*tips fedora*

>>4526406
Wow. That list is ridden with bias and ignorance.

>>4526406
I say whites because that is the term that encompass all peoples of that specific heritage and general racial features. Same reason I use blacks; it encompasses not only native african's but aborigines and people of Papua New Guini.

Also, your reasons are directly refuted in Guns, Germs, and Steel. Did you not read the book that this thread is here to discuss? If that is the case you should feel embarrassed.

>>4526276
>it's like poison to /pol/tards
>>4526374
>but I'm pretty sure there's sources that refute this book and suggest that whites are superior
IIRC the book doesn't actually argue that there are no meaningful differences between human populations. /pol/ acts like it does, but I really don't think that's something it says.

Feel free to quote something proving me wrong, though.

>>4526427
Caucasian, Negroid, Mongoloid.

>>4526427
Whites aren't the only group to have advanced civlizations and contribute to the scientific community.

Asians and Arabs have too.

Sub-Saharan africans are the only ones who haven't.

>>4526406
>building spaceships
>inventing medicines
>inventing in general
>exploring
None of these are done by anything more than a tiny, tiny proportion of the population, so I doubt that they're meaningful evidence for the average intelligence of that population.

And as for 'exploring', I'm pretty sure people from Africa have done a whole lot of that. Since we're all from there and all.

>>4526432
What about people who share most if not all distinct traits of Caucasian but who did not originate in the Caucasus Mountains?

Furthermore, isn't Mongoloid generally considered insulting?

>>4526438
And of that tiny, tiny proportion of the population. It's almost entirely whites and asians.

Hell, it was ex-nazis who built the apollo ships.

>>4526439
Well, it has negative connotations, but when used scholarly nobody will take offense.

>arguments that draw on average IQ
>talking about 'white superiority'
This always bugs me. It's like you haven't noticed who actually tops the IQ tests.

>>4526439
Who cares if it's considered insulting.

Mongoloid is a good term.

>>4526446
Literally nobody ITT has talked about IQ.

>>4526442
>when used scholarly
except contemporary scholars hardly use it because its as dated as oriental

>>4526441
Yeah man that might be true but like, just because one group of people had a stranglehold on the world because of arbitrary and luck-based advantages over other races doesn't make another race inherently inferior. In fact, now that equality is finally making a push forward you notice that blacks, given they are growing up in adequate conditions to foster higher levels of intelligence, are accomplishing the same level of intellectual capacity as any other race.

>>4526441
I meant proportion of a given population, e.g. 'whites'. You can't use the achievements of a very small number to generalise about the capabilities of the whole.

>>4526446
Indeed, there is quite a bit of historgraphy that actually argues that a Europe dominated world is abnormal and China is the usual dominant economic power -- see the writings of Andre Gunter Franck: professional masturbator. It's just that the perfect storm of plague, mongols, and extreme inflation changed the system briefly over to the Wests favor in the Renaissance, and late Middle Ages. Most of it is bullshit in my opinion, but the paradigm is shifting.

>>4526446
It's not the Chinese thats for sure. Japs maybe, but whites won out over them in the way all races do when they fall behind intellectually- with war.

>>4526354
>Whites were still the ones who decided to stop living in mud and walk somewhere else
Um, what? Europeans were living in mud for aaaaaaages. Other peoples were way ahead of them on that score.

Isn't he a Jew?

>>4526455
Of course you can, since when didn't the achievements of the extremes affect the average?

>>4526356
Anyways, on topic:
Anyone that's racist is ignorant, and for some odd reason thinks highly of ''his own people'' when really, 60% of them are moronic anyways.

Most arguments for racism are really intellectual hatred, but if you think any skin complexion makes you smart, or genetically predisposed to being smarter, then you need to take a look around and realise how far down the drain your brain is.

>>4526447
Eh, /pol/ always gets around to it at some point when it talks about people being 'superior' to each other. After 5,000 threads on the subject, I think it can be read as implied.

>>4526464
>>4526333
This.

It's like reading a book about evolution written by a creationist.

>>4526467
Since there might be thousands of below-averages who completely cancel out the extremes. It's fairly simple, really. You can't come close to an average without testing a decent sample size and including low and high ends.

>>4526462
You're thinking of an entirely different time scope as we were discussing. We were referring to the initial people who left africa for greener pastures, if you will. We were not referring to the differences between the larger group of people who spread out once leaving africa.

>>4526475
Um... what's the relevance?

>>4526472
ps: this thread is also filled with people who don't seem to know that Europe only passed China in economic/trade means during the nineteenth century, and that Europeans were fucking dumbfounded when they first saw China and realised they had a society that flourished like their own even though they weren't christian. And that the cradle of civilization is in fact in the Middle-East and Northern Africa.

>>4526481
So 'whites'=everybody who left Africa? I are confus. Normally when I think 'white people' I think Europeans.

>>4526486
Jews have a vested interest in wiping out the idea of racial differences.

>IE, The Holocaust, never again goy!

>>4526496
But I'm pretty sure Diamond doesn't argue that there are no racial differences.

>>4526276

This book holds two contradictory statements.

>whites got better because their environment forced them to develop methods of staying warm and etc

>whites' environment was richer than the rest so they were able to get better

It's fucked. It only proved that antiracists are running out of arguments.

Asians did well in Africa, Arabs did well in Africa, Africans always fucking sucked in Africa, despite varied climates, riches everywhere. Africans still do just as badly in other countries now.

Read a forensic textbook on human anatomy and realise that you've been lied to quite a bit about "We're all the same under the skin."

>>4526473
>muh /pol/

So ignorant.

>>4526362
This.

>>4526493
I mean in that specific exchange the conversation evolved in a way that slightly altered the initial intent of the word.

>>4526472
Skin color is the least important difference between races though.

>brain structure and size
>skull and skeletal shape
>gestation periods in the womb
>percentage of people with the "warrior" gene

>>4526473
>BBBAAAAWWWWWWW POL PLS GO BAAWWWWWWW

>I always knew racism was stupid and wrong
wow
such objectivity
much critical thinking
open minded

pic related
I always knew jews were stupid and wrong, but thanks to this book, I now know WHY it's stupid and wrong.

I heartly recommend this book, it's like poison to tumblerettes


guns,germs and steel is a good book though, that is not what I am criticising

>>4526518
>>brain size
they still give out degrees in anthropometry?

>>4526510
/pol/ is shorthand for 'racists'. It's actually arguably better, since 'racist' itself has taken on such a thoroughly perjorative meaning.

>>4526472
>A races accomplishments don't count because EVERYONE in the race didn't commit them

Jesus, this is the antiracist argument?

>>4526527
According to the /pol/ polls though, less than half of them are actually racist.

>>4526420

>/pol/'s version of le fedora meme is to ridicule simple facts

kayk

>>4526509
That's a great thought the only problem is those two statements don't contradict each other, at all

>>4526523
Can someone do a quick 'for further reading' list for Guns, Germans, and Steel? Sex At Dawn comes to mind.

>>4526532
We're not all the same on the inside DeShawn.

Sub-Saharan africans are the only race that didn't mix with Neanderthals, which explains why they seem so distant from the rest of humanity.

>>4526531
Imagine if 49% of Americans actively sought to kill and devour fellow human beings, people would call the US a cannibal nation.

>>4526518
>gestation periods in the womb
Intredasting. What are the differences?

>>4526298
>the earth rotates the sun
>why?
>I DONT NEED REASONS BECAUSE IT IS TRUE
even if it happens to be true, you are still as ignorant as the person who is wrong if you are incapable of constructing an argument to support your claim

>>4526531
Dammit. I might have to just say 'racist', then.

>>4526542
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/1/107.long

>This research suggests that normal gestational length is shorter in Black and Asian women compared with white European women and that fetal maturation may occur earlier.

>>4526438
>building spaceships
Russians pioneered space exploration, piggybacked on modern physics which is dominated the achievements of Jewish mathematicians
>inventing medicines
Scientific medicine begins with Persian and Arab Muslims
>inventing in general
>explroing
Lol, okay. Enjoy your Amurgan education.

>>4526527
/pol/ is shorthand for "burn the witch"
It is an strawman, the internet is full of them, tumblerinas, 9fags, bros,etc...

>>4526554
Whoops, quoted the wrong post.
>>4526406

>>4526554
Interesting, no black people did any of those things then?

>>4526554
I think you're replying to the wrong post, bro.

>>4526539
Sure thing, Leroy.

>>4526553
Interesting.

Animals usually have very short gestation perods too. Basically because they have to get up and about quickly in order to survive in the wild.

>>4526540
but in /pol/ only a 48% are racists so your argument is invalid

>>4526530
Do you even read what you're typing?
It's not the accomplishment of a race. It's the accomplishment of a person. That's the whole point of my post.

>>4526558
Some definitely did exploring. I imagine some inventing too. Spaceships and medicine... not sure. I'd be surprised if they were completely unrepresented in the latter, at least.

>>4526563
http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics-neanderthal-110718.htm

>If your heritage is non-African, you are part Neanderthal

>>4526565
Damn.

>>4526574
>anyone's heritage being non-African

>>4526578
Yes, only the people that STAYED in Africa until relatively modern history are considered African you pillock.

>>4526518
Yeah, it's 2014, darling. We have real science now.

So to what degree is race socially constructed?

Conversely, to what degree is it biological?

>>4526539
How is it only 1-4%? If the two populations merged, you would expect somewhere around 50%, right?

>>4526582
So when does heritage stop being heritage? I'm pretty sure you can always go back another generation.

>>4526594
When does blue turn into purple?

Just because you can't point at a specific point and say that's where it begins, doesn't mean one or the other doesn't exist.

>>4526586
It's a socially constructed identity grounded in observable biological differences. You can't give a % on that, it would make no sense.

>>4526596
Except this is about differences over time. If purple was descended from blue over many thousands of years, you couldn't meaningfully say purple had a non-blue heritage.

>>4526597
>frankfurt school fanfic sociology
>objective
>scientific
>truth

hehe

>>4526587
Obviously depends on the size of the populations

>>4526602
I'm pretty sure the Frankfurt school didn't invent the notion that we are social beings who interpret our existence through language, anon.

>>4526538
Sex at Dawn made me want to be a bonobo, just chillin, eating berries, fuckin' everyone just because.

>>4526586
Race is a social construct, descendance is biological

>>4526614
>this is what /pol/ actually believes

>>4526614
no, that was Heidegger, but Heidegger also knew the limits between science and philosophy and he never went around correcting scientific terms because he thought he was entitled to be the absolute standard of truths in all the spheres of intellectual endeavor

>>4526631
Neither are scientific terms, though. Scientists themselves guarantee this by continuously proving earlier scientists wrong.

>>4526467
Since the law of averages.

>>4526637
...and, in fact, races are a very good case in point. The original 'scientific' categories were invented before we even knew what DNA was.

>>4526639
>average is 50
>a bunch of 99 extremes come in
>thinks this won't change things

>>4526637
the biological differences between two populations is a scientific issue

>>4526509
Just because they had to work hard to live in their environment doesn't mean that the environment wasn't rich in resources.

>>4526520
That's it. Paint a caricature of your opponent because you don't have a real argument.

>>4526653
You mean like the constant posts declaring /pol/ to be the cause of all racism and opinions you disagree with?

>>4526646
Indeed, and as I said science changes all the time and thus can't be treated as an 'absolute standard'.

>>4526654
I explained this earlier- I used /pol/ as shorthand for 'racist'. You've demonstrated why, because you're treating 'racism' as a bad thing in itself.

>>4526660
I didn't treat it as a bad thing, I said you act like it's the source of racism.

>>4526655
Science should be used as the absolute standard precisely because it is open to change

>>4526276

>We're all the same, it's just skin colour.

>>4526666
>someone has an extreme deformity
>HURR THIS PROVES RACES XD

>>>/pol/

>>4526664
Yes, methodically it's open to change. But that means its conclusions are always provisional, which means you can't shout people down by saying 'science says this!'

>>4526671
You calling aboriginals deformed? RACIST SCUM

>>4526666

I love how in all these images the "white" skull is always a more appealing color than the "non-white" skull, and always in pristine in condition, whereas the "non-white" skull is always rough-looking and missing a tooth or whatever.

>>4526673
all conclusions are always provisional, science at least includes that fact in its methodology instead of presuming it has a privileged access to reality like others

>>4526642
You are fucking retarded. A couple hundred 99's will not change hundreds of millions of 50's.

>>4526674
It's funny, there's the odd reference earlier to 'whites' showing how smart they were by being the first to leave Africa, but... I could be remembering this wrong, but I think the Aborigenes are believed to have been first.

>It's just skin.

>>4526566
Do you even read what you're typing?
It's not the accomplishment of a person. It's the accomplishment of a race. That's the whole point of my post.

>>4526642
Yes, but the 99s will be cancelled out by an equal number of 1s. So the point is, you can't just derive the average from looking at the 99s.

>>4526677
To be fair, most abo skulls would be buried under a pile of rocks, or just left in the desert. Whereas a white skull would be more likely to either been donated to medical research, or exhumed from a coffin.

>>4526683
They then spent thousands of years wandering around a desert, and their list of inventions ends at the stick.

>>4526686
>this is the aryan race

>>4526687
You've done nothing clever.

>>4526687
That's a weird counter-intuitive view, though, and needs justification. It's completely self-explanatory that if I paint an amazing picture, I have painted an amazing picture. You'd have to justify claiming that my 'race' painted that picture.

>>4526686
Looks like average crackers to me.

>>4526700
>>4526704

>this denial