/lit/ - Literature

I'll just watch the TV show in like a year

OMG I LOVE GRRM I WANT HIS BABIES, NOT FUCK THIS BOOK IT SUCKS DICK HE IS DEAD HE WONT COME OUT WITH DANCE EVER SO WE ALL ARE DOOMED FUCK MY LIFE. think that covers everything so /thread

>>447487

You forgot the fat jokes and Eddard dies etc.

>>447491
Eddard dies? Who is Eddard and how does this happen?

>>447495

Oh you.

>>447495
one of the POV characters.
he gets executed.

>>447503
How?

>>447510
with his own sword

i guess you can say that ned was a-HEAD of his time

i guess eddard wasnt very HEADstrong

>>447516
By?

>>447523
by the king's justice
a knight named Ilyn Payne

>>447523

ilyn payne

>>447525
Where?

You guys suck.

>>447532
in King's Landing, the capital city of the kingdom, Westeros, in which the book takes place.

>>447532

in king's landing, front steps of the great baelor, i think?

>>447537
Why?

>>447547
Treason.

>>447525

He certainly delivered the PAYNE to Eddard's Head, didn't he?

He was murdered by Ilyn Payne, with his own sword, in King's Landing! I love CLUE!

>>447547

inb4 when?

298 AL

>>447553
Not murdered, executed.
It was legit.

>>447560
Legitimate to who? Everything is perspective my dear Watson.

>>447560

It wasn't a legitimate execution because Joffrey wasn't the legit King.

>>447564
Legitimate to the state and to the religion
saying he was murdered is like saying John Andre was murdered.

>>447574

Joffrey wasn't the legitimate king....

>>447566
Vox populi, bro.
Everyone thinks he's the right guy, so he has all the power.

Can someone tell me what the fuck is a Hedge Knight?

>>447576
"Everyone" thinks so do they? Damn what the fuck have I been reading about these last few books then?

>>447578
A knight that isn't in direct service to a lord
like a ronin samurai guy
they just wander around looking for work and what not

>>447579
everyone at the scene thought so.
and it doesn't really matter how he became king, the point is that it was a legal execution ordered by the current ruler

>>447584
"Everyone at the scene" eh? Funny, could have sworn Arya was there...

>>447575
Joffrey had as much claim to the throne as Robert Baratheon or even Aegon the Conqueror.

>>447588

sansa, as well.

>>447589
Did he have as much claim as suffocating on his own food? Yeah, didn't fucking think so.

>>447588
Okay, now you're just nitpicking.
You get the point of what I'm trying to say.
You could argue that Robert wasn't a legit king because Dany and Viserys didn't think he should have been king.
But the overwhelming majority was in his favor, even though he took the throne through warfare and bloodshed.
Much more messily than how Joffrey took the throne, which was by being blissfully unaware of his mother's scheming.

>>447592
I get your point, but the whole message of the books is that everything is relative. Everyone seems to have a "legitimate" claim to the throne.

>>447596
yeah.
that's basically what I was saying.
except not really
Point being, Ned wasn't murdered.

>>447596
>>447599

and relative to the stark point of view...he was.

>>447600
fuck the starks, they're all dead.

>>447600
Exactly, he was made to give a false confession, and killed for said confession, I maintain that if those there knew the facts about his execution they too would have viewed it as murder.

>>447601

no! one is blind, another crippled, yet another missing, one who thinks she is someone else, and lastly...the undead one.

so not ALL dead

Lets see:
Did Eddard commit treason against Joffrey? Yes
Was Joffrey the King? Yes
Is treason a crime? Yes
How is it generally punished? Death
Was it a murder? No

>>447603
if you compare the amount of starks that have died with the amount of starks currently alive, the count comes up so close to 100% dead that it makes no difference.

>>447604
I like this guy.

>>447605

The only truly dead starks are eddard and robb

>>447603
Is Jon a Stark?

>>447607
what about all those ones before the series?

>>447608

most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it. so no.

>>447608
Half, not by Eddard though.

>>447608
It depends if Robb legitimized him. We don't know yet. But for now, he's still a Snow.

>>447604
But Stannis is the legitimate King!

>>447619
Who was sitting on the Iron Throne?

>>447613
HOLY SHIT JON IS LYANNA'S SON ARE YOU SHITTING ME!?!?

>>447621

Joffrey didn't claim the throne through bloodshed like Robert or Aegon, he "inherited" it, falsely. stannis was the one to whom the throne should belong

>>447619
Well, it's actually Dany. So fuck you.
See? I just pulled your own shit on you.
You're going to be all like, "But Robert won the throne from the Targaryens!!!!" and I'm going to be all like "And then Cersei and Littlefinger and all them won the throne from Robert. So Joffrey is as legitimate as Robert is, which is more legitimate than Dany is, so therefore he is more legitimate than Stannis. So just try that shit, I dare you.

>>447621
But Daenerys has dragons, doesn't that make her more legit?

>>447625
>to whom the throne should belong
>throne should belong
>should
that's a tricky word in this situation right here.

>>447625
Cersei and co. claimed the throne in his name through bloodshed. And then just made it look like he was inheriting it.

>>447628
>>447626

As far as Westeros is concerned, the throne belongs to Stannis. But in the view of the whole world, yes, it should be Dany's.

>>447626
But Robert won the throne from the Targaryens!

>>447631
It looks to me like the throne BELONGS to Tommen.
Who you want it to belong to is an entirely different story.

>>447633
And then Cersei and Littlefinger and all them won the throne from Robert. So Joffrey is as legitimate as Robert is, which is more legitimate than Dany is, so therefore he is more legitimate than Stannis.
See? I told you.

>>447634

Getting a king drunk != killing a king with your sword

Personally I was rooting for the King in the North. Red wedding was a depressing chapter for me.

>>447637
It was depressing for everyone.

>>447636
He's still dead because of you, and now you have all the power.
While the methods may be different, the result is the same.

>>447635
I wouldn't call backstabbing a drunken man "winning."

>>447636
There is basically no argument you can make in Stannis's favor that does not destroy the legitimacy of multiple other kings.
Also, legitimate is used way too much in this thread. I need synonyms.

>>447639
Not to mention that everyone assumes Joffrey was Robert's son and therefore his claim to the throne was legit.

>>447641
Who came out on top? The drunk/dead man? No, he died. Therefore he lost. And if won person loses, the other person wins.

>>447643
Valid, legal, lawfully-begotten, legit

>>447643

Stannis having a right to the throne destroys the legitimacy of all other claims, that's the point of his "right to the throne"-- being the only one. Also, the king in the north made no claim to the iron throne, just whatever the fuck they had in winterferll

>>447648
legit isn't really a synonym, but the rest of those work. good job.

>>447645
Joffrey is a dead mofo killed by Stannis through an intermediary thus Stannis killed the King and deserves the throne.

>>447649
Why does Stannis have the best claim to the throne? Because he's the closest relative to the king who was deposed by violence?
Oh wait, there's another king that was deposed by violence - Aerys II. And his closest living relative is Dany. So it looks to me that by your argument, she should rule Westeros.

Is Jon really the son of Lyanna?

>>447655
yeah. Rhaegar and Lyanna, most likely. Or GRRM could be trolling with his blatant foreshadowing and it will turn out to be Ned and some whore.

>>447651
True, but Stannis never had the power to get to the throne. So the king's closest relative, Tommen, took it instead.

>>447654
Shouldn't she? Isn't that the whole point of the beggar king? He had the legitimate claim but no way to enforce it.

>>447654

I don't disagree with the latter portion, but it looks like we have three separate arguments here: who has best claim to the throne through violence, inheritance or deception. now, which is most valid?

>>447654
The Iron Throne isn't worth shit, it is merely a symbol. Tommen is too young and incompetent to be a ruler he is at best a figurehead, Cersei is imprisoned and no longer controlling her child, thus the true ruler is as of yet undecided.

>>447655
So does Jon then have the best claim to the Iron Throne?

>>447656

where did you come up with this?

>>447660
I believe the original question was: Did Joffrey murder Eddard? To which my argument was no as Eddard committed treason against Joffrey who was king. And others argued that he had murdered him because Joff didn't have a legit claim.

>>447660
None is more valid in general than the others.
But whichever one is used in the situation is the most valid in that situation.
Robert used bloodshed to get the throne, and it worked so he took the throne
Aerys or any of those other Targaryens used inheritance, and it worked so he took the throne.
Joffrey, or Cersei or whoever you want to say, used deception, and it worked so they took the throne.
But with this whole system of politics and everything that has happened, you can't just say one works better than the others.

>>447667
>>447665

then goddamnit, who the fuck is supposed to be ruler right now

>>447665
According to law Joffrey has no claim he is not of the Baratheon house, in practical application as this is kept from the people Joffrey was more or less the King, though not really the ruler per se.

>>447664
There's a part where in the House of the Undying, Dany sees a man with a silver harp, presumably Rhaegar, hold up a newborn baby near a woman that looks like a Stark, and says "his will be the song of ice and fire"
Also, Eddard never told anyone who Jon's mother is, there are multiple flashbacks to Lyanna saying "promise me, Ned" to Eddard.
I can't list everything, but if you string it all together, it's pretty self-explanatory.

>>447667
Actually, whichever leaves you a kingdom left to rule could be said to be the best. Thus Cersei's attempt wasn't really that successful, especially considering where she is now.

>>447669
>supposed to be ruler right now
Whoever can keep the throne, pretty much. Tommen is on the throne with no signs of leaving, so he is "supposed to be ruler." But the whole religious movement is kicking up, so a theocracy might be implemented. But there's no objective way to say that any of the character should be king.

>>447670
His father was a Baratheon and so is he. You have to realize 99.99% of Westeros doesn't realize hes born of the incest between Cersei and Jaimie

>>447674
It was successful for a while.
And the Lannisters are still in power, so there you go.

>>447673
Aww yeah, just creamed my knickers a wee bit there.

>>447669

Technically, the throne would normally be passed to Robert's children (none), it should have been passed to his brothers in order of age (Stannis, then Renly). It doesn't really matter who should have the throne, the fact is that there are multiple people with a good enough 'right' to it that it's going to continue causing a shitstorm.

>>447676

Isn't Mace Tyrell marching on King's Landing? Tommen has no Hand, as per Cersei's instructions. I sincerely doubt that there are enough men to successfully defend if Tyrell decided he wanted the throne.

>>447682
yeah, shit's fucked up when you realize it.
Don't discount the possibilty of George trolling the shit out of all the spectators, though. It's just the thing that he would do.

>>447673

I'm going to have to look into this more. in the mean time, however, alcohol has made me irritable and you guys are getting me all hot and bothered. off to the audio books, fun times /lit/

>>447685
I can't remember, but if Tyrell is marching, and he does take the throne, then HE is the rightful ruler. So good call.

>>447680
Currently in power of a fractured kingdom with the majority of the powerful members of their houses killed or otherwise crippled/incapacitated. Doesn't seem like they are in much of a position of strength to me.

>>447687
Been good discussing with you, bro.
night.

>>447679

I would say that figure is false. Stannis had men spreading the rumors all over Westeros. Most people are aware of the accusation. How many believe it is up for debate.

>>447689
well, they have symbolic power over most of the population.
for now.
They have the Iron Throne, anyway.

>>447693
They have a hunk of melted metal swords when there is a shitstorm coming there way. They are welcome to it. Btw is it just me or is the Lannister House by far the coolest?

>>447694

In all honesty, a house composed of Magnificent Bastards is far more interesting than any of the other houses. Doesn't mean I like them, though.

>>447693
Speaking of melted swords, I seem to remember something about the throne hurting those it doesn't accept and how everyone who has sat on it since Robert has gotten poked and sliced. Is it possible that the Iron Throne is sentient and chooses who sits on it!?!? Is it like the Wizard hat from Harry Potter!?!?

>>447694
Most of the people living in the South think of Tommen as the king.
And like Varys says, power is all an illusion in any case.
So right now, he has the power.
And whoever's controlling him, which was Cersei until very recently.

>>447696
It's more likely that the fucker is made out of goddamn swords and if you lean wrong, it'll stab the shit out of you no matter who you are. Also, it stabbed some of the Targaryens as well as the recent kings.

>>447694
Tyrion and (until recently) Tywin are geniuses compared to everyone else, I can't help but admire them over the others.

>>447696

Everyone, Robert included, has been cut on that damned throne. It's not magic, just not OSHA approved.

>>447699
Because they didn't have Dragons!

>>447704
fuck yo dragons, it's a chair made out of swords.
You try sitting on it, no matter how legit your claim to the throne is.

>>447696
>the Iron Throne is sentient and chooses who sits on it
Actually, it is very possible, and the truth is that the Iron Throne is an ornery bastard that hates everyone.

>>447703
OSHA?

>>447711
The United States Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is an agency of the United States Department of Labor. It was created by Congress of the United States under the Occupational Safety and Health Act, signed by President Richard M. Nixon, on December 29, 1970. Its mission is to prevent work-related injuries, illnesses, and occupational fatality by issuing and enforcing rules called standards for workplace safety and health. The agency is headed by a Deputy Assistant Secretary of Labor.

>>447713
Very informative, much obliged.

Thanks for the scintillating chat all, always good to get my nerd on, got to catch some Z's 'fore class in the morning. Later Anon.