/lit/ - Literature

/lit/ also says that A Song of Ice and Fire is "a good junk read, nothing more" even though it is fantastically built and written (albeit a bit bloated)

Most entertainment boards on this site have this smugness

>>4452867
I think /lit/ has more so a problem with wasted books
the book is 700 pages long and isn't a small book.
Trust me after you get past page 550 it starts to drag on, the first book by any means isn't bad its more so the second book that lets it down and seeing as its a trilogy it can ruin the whole series for some.

looking forward to the third

>tfw second book was an anti-climax for the third

>>4452886
thats a shame, that they discourage other genres because of most of /lit/ wanting to sound smart or intelligent due to their one-sided bias elitist opinions on books.

>being this insecure.

>>4452867
it would be better if you said what you like about it, what it's reminiscent of, what's the writing style like instead of going on a rant about how several anonymous posts about as coherent as yours can be attributed to this board as a whole.

>>4452887
this
>first book is good, drags out after page 507 in the paperback edition
>the characters are horrible, this red head pansy who gets bashed by everyone and is weak
>the first 200 pages if you look he learns a bit of alchemy enough to do some good stuff
>when he becomes a hobo and bashed by pike, suddenly the alchemy he learns isn't mentioned
>forgets because he is busy blocking out past memories using the alchemy
>using alchemy to forget alchemy ?

>>4452920
Majority on /lit/ always discourage it on fantasy threads

>Its descriptive terms allow for easy depiction of places and environments without being overkill on detail
>Characters come and go as oppose to other fantasy where characters all have significant meaning to the main character. Gives a sense of realism
>The Magic System has its flaws and the main character Kvothe doesn't have magic powers that suddenly get him out of sticky situations like most fantasies.
>The Main Character goes through genuine hardships and isn't some destined or demi-god human. Evokes a sense of realism
>Dabbles in mystery enough for you to wonder about the world of kvothe.

>>4452951
i was planning to read it and wondering if magic system bore any similarities to one employed in the wizard of earthsea (which contains the best concept of mana i've encountered). and based on your observation about characters, you might like abercrombie's blade itself - it's a ripoff on george martin but i'm on book 5 (there are 3 separate from the trilogy) and his heavily idiomatic language is something i tend to enjoy. he's horribly derivative writer and cannot write dialogue but there's something endearing in sheer number of cliches he produces. there is even an occasional crack in the fantasy mold that makes the prose endearing and easy to regurgitate. most of the times. he's a solid action fantasy author.

>>4452886
This. While A Song of Ice and Fire's writing, as I remember it, was varied in quality (mostly good, a very few patches can be accurately described as BAD), the series overall is butt fucking fantastic.

I haven't read OP's pic.

>>4452982
>patches
two books are a bit more than patches. and its endgame will be all about predestination and ancient evil awakens.

>>4452974
I bought the trilogy because I read a couple of pages at the book store of the blade itself, so I can't wait to read it, from you description it sounds like interesting read.

As for the magic system, earthsea has more of a fantasy element when is comes to the magic system. People in the king-killer chronicle (In Name of The Wind) have to learn about fundamental philosophies to start learning Alchemy (the magic system) which is using the world to your advantage, being able to move or catch objects with your mind. Being able to hide emotion of convince other people. It has a much more believable magic system in terms of fantasy. People aren't inherently born with it and any with drive can learn it but some are born with a talent to learn it quickly. There are university's that teach the alchemy but there is still a lot that is left out and further more the book shows that there is mystery surrounding the magic system in the book as there are more advance and technical as well as damaging uses for alchemy which can effect the environment.

The book itself uses a lot of heavy allusion with a lot of biblical good vs evil referencing.

>>4453009
thanks, that may well prove to be interesting. though that last sentence evoked book of the new sun which is never bad.

>>4453009
The non-trilogy books set in the same world are better than the blade itself. but you get more enjoyment if you read the trilogy first, there are some references and background characters come to the front.

>>4453009
>Alchemy (the magic system)
That's incorrect actually. There are different types of magic and the one you're talking about, moving and catching things, is sympathy. Alchemy is something entirely different in the books. The hiding emotions thing isn't really sympathy either just a trick he gets taught to make it easier to focus.

>>4453078
Except for Red Country which was shit. Honestly Abercrombie writes 5 solid books and than tries to pass off a steaming pile.

I enjoyed the first two books.

But obviously they have flaws. I'm just capable of enjoying a delicious Philly Cheesesteak without lamenting how it's shit compared to the Filet with Foie Gras medallions I had a Michelin starred restaurant in the past. An ability most of /lit/ seems to lack.

Regarding the book, my biggest pros and cons:

Pro: The mythology is top notch and has the right feel of separation and raw mysticism that makes you feel like it's an actual mythos rather than a metaphysical plot point.

Cons: As the stories go on (especially in the second book) they start to feel like a rambling series of short stories held together with a thin chronological thread. The major acts in book two start to feel almost disconnected from each other.

>>4453466
what's so shit about it, in broad terms? didn't get there yet.

>>4453005

Maybe HBO did the world a favor by giving George R.R. Martin so much money that he stopped writing the last two books and just fucked whores and did coke until his gigantic heart exploded out of his chest like Jon Hurt's in Alien.

>>4453510
but hurt could still write and wriggle with wires. martin just likes cons too much it seems. i'd rather if he wrote something new, i stopped caring about asoiaf when he started introducing magical warriors at every turn

>and then the gladiator queen south of qarth, her boat of glistening gold borne across the desert by hundred barefoot albino virgins, with the sword made of unobtanium...

fuck that, if you're gonna mention characters like that in a paragraph or two only, what's the point of introducing most of westeros in the first place? tell us about those magical people in the east. you started off with war of the roses and went straight into robert howard does snow white and the seven dwarves.

I love fantasy and read it all the time, and I don't like Rothfuss. And that's not uncommon with fantasy fans on here, honestly.

>>4453466
sometimes you falter in your work. nobody's perfect. you have to be realistic about these things.

It's only readable because they made him rework it for 7 fucking years before they published it.

The second book where he didnt spend 7 years working on it to make it readable is universally seen as the shit it is from everyone thats read it, I didn't care to.

DESPITE these facts and that even "fans" consider the second book a huge turd,

this is hailed as something standing out in the genre and is hugely overrated by teens


so you can fuck off too this is an 18+ board

>>4452951
please see
>>4453561

>>4452867
>does /lit/ hate fantasy ? if so why ?

because pandering to morons isn't high art.

>>4453545

He had a trilogy's worth of material with the War of the Five Kings and it's become increasingly clear with each of the last two books that he's basically used up his Westeros material.

>>4453546
I'll sign this statement. I've only read the first book, and I did think the background world was interesting, but the book stalled when Kvothe entered university, and most of the other characters in the book were complete nonentities. And since I didn't much care for Kvothe himself...

I like the first one.
The second felt like it was going fucking nowhere.
The third book is going to be a disaster.
Rothfuss needs to team up with a writer who has great ideas but shit prose.

>>4453589
>And since I didn't much care for Kvothe himself...
This.
He's the least likeable person in the book, besides his whore not-girlfriend.

>>4453618
>Rothfuss needs to team up with a writer who has great ideas but shit prose.
Sanderson/Rothfuss?
I think they'd strike a good balance, considering their books suffer from the opposite issues.

>>4453565
>only high art is acceptable
>posts on 4chan

>>4452867
Let's see.

Mary Sue protagonist, check.
Awful, cringeworthy romantic sub-plot that takes up far too much of the book, check.

Also all the University/lute playing scenes were so dull I started ripping my own hair out.

>>4453724
>Mary Sue
Here we go again.

Why does every fantasy have to be a series? I wanted to read something fun but everything that people recommend is a huge commitment. Just give me a few hundred pages of adventuring and beast slaying. i I think I'll just re-read Hobbit.

>>4453754
Fantasy writers are generally really bad at writing. I mean, the fact /lit/ is saying ASOIAF is well written for fantasy is just evidence enough that it's a genre of poorly constructed sentences and chapters.

fantasy is for stories, so with that comes long, bloated fantastical series of events which generally takes an author a lot of bullshit writing to complete.

But I'm in the same boat as you, actually. I like condense bit of well written fantasy as I feel like the writer is forced to display his talents for the written language over orator piss and shit all the time.

>>4453754
There are lots of standalones, you just have to dig a bit to find them. Series are a lot more visible since they're in the limelight for longer.

>>4453565
why sont you cut yourself. because you speak like a closedup son of a witch. seriously. No problem with fantasy that is well written. the problem is the mean reader. what is wrong with YOU?
you seem that you arent just a bastard. you are a bastard looking for problems. but you are also a cunt. thats why you are looking for problems on this anonymous posting site.

>>4453545
>fuck that, if you're gonna mention characters like that in a paragraph or two only,
What the hell, how is that a problem? Don't tell me the everything has to be vital in some way to the plot. I love that kind of indulging in an unknown part of the author's universe.

Is the Kingkiller Chronicles any good?

>>4453805
1st book is "ok"
2nd book is pretty bad.
Read Way of Kings instead.

>>4453780
Wow, that's a fucking awful list. Keep that shit at Reddit where it belongs.

>>4453754
The Forgotten Beasts of Eld by Patricia McKillip is a pretty good standalone.
I think the reason most fantasy are series with each book being 400+ pages is because of what fantasy is. To fully flesh out a completely made up world would take a long time, especially if you want to have time for an actual plot. Also, high fantasy usually wants to tell a story with a grand scale, and you would need lots of build up for that.
I honestly prefer books that are connected by the setting but not by plot.

>>4453754
lots of D&D novels are standalone

>>4453780
>Michael Stackpole

didn't even have to read the rest of that list

>>4453772
>I mean, the fact /lit/ is saying ASOIAF is well written for fantasy
Great generalization there, bud.

>>4453754
Krabat by Otfried Preußler

>>4453754
baby can't into books, go play video games

I like fantasies I would take what /lit/ stigma on fantasies to series every book genre has its good and it bad. Here is a complete list of whats good.

>The Warded Man
>Elric of Melniboné
>Tigana
>The Black Company
>Night Angel Triology
>Stormlight Archieves
>First Law
>Shadow and Claw

I tried reading this and just gave up midway and haven't touched it since. I feel like the book is just the author jerking off the main character so he could jizz on my face in the end. Too much "I LOOKED INTO HIS EYES AND OH SHIT THIS IS KVOTHE THE ETERNAL COOL GUY WHERE HE WALKS THE EARTH SPLITS HE'S SO AWESOME I AM IN AWE YOU SHOULD BE IN AWE TOO READER ARE YOU IN AWE RIGHT NOW YOU REALLY SHOULD BE HE'S AWESOME OH SHIT HE IS BREAKING DOWN IN THIS SCENE THAT SHOWS YOU THAT HE IS AWESOME YET STILL VERY HUMAN AWW POOR ALL POWERFUL KVOTHE KILLER OF SATAN DON'T BE SAD"

This is fucking Twilight for boys.

>>4452867
>if so why ?
pretending to read fantasy in public doesn't give you an intellectual apperance.

Maybe some focus too much on the creation of the lore and histories for fantasy books, and don't leave room for good prose. A good writing style and prose seem to be /lit/'s most important factors.

>trying to write a fantasy book, but my writing style/prose is bad

>>4454061
Maybe it'll be good enough to earn you some millions like that lady and her magic pottery books or whatever.

>>4452867

No, there's a lot of really good fantasy out there, like "Little, Big", The Traveller in Black, anything by Vance, Borges' "Book of Fantasy" has a ton of good stuff in it.

Rothfuss just isn't a very good storyteller. GRRM is pretty good, but his story sort of got away from him, and he's basically boiling the pot right now.

/lit/ tends to be a bit smug about only liking the cream of the crop, so expect rothfuss, paolini, meyer and jordan to get pretty short shrift. But really it seems like only tolkien knock-offs and dungeons and dragons serial fantasy get the boot out of hand (to mix a metaphor).

and "Magic System"? why is everybody so obsessed with the mechanics of a plot device? what difference does it make whether a demon is invoked, a spell is cast, an amulet does it or you're born with a talent? if it becomes a crucial point in your story, you might want to rethink your story. I blame Lin Carter for this...

>>4454039
>First Law

ha ha ha

>>4454088
>why is everybody so obsessed with the mechanics of a plot device?

Because it's nice to be able to wrap your head around it. It's part of the charm of hard sci-fi too. Reading "it works because I say so, nigger" gets tiring after awhile.

>>4454092
but that's all you get anyway with fantasy:

"but it is not even so..."The shadowy figure moved forward and cast back his cowl, revealing the youthful face of Lord Diaperdoll.

Kragen fell back in amazement.

" But my wards are proof against all phases of your magic! I am an elder of the Porphyrian Way, and you are but an acolyte of the Fermian! My scintillations should have torn through your defenses, and your comely yet virile self, like a buzz saw through tolet paper!

Lord Diaperdoll laughed. "Your puny powers and anachronistic metaphors cannot protect you from this!" and he drew from within the bossom of his waistcoat a talisman that seemed to throb with malevolent puissance.

Kragen turned ashen. "The Sluggroll of Mazrigon! How could you?..."

"the bequest of a grateful ally." the young lord said offhandedly. "How give up the booty and nobody gets hurt..permanently!"

"Now who's being anachronistic?...Oh, you're being literal, well, a man can dream can't he? But i am not without my reosurces!"

Meanwhile in another part of the castle, something actually intersting was happening, but who'd want to hear about the lesbian experiments of the young heiress with her tow earthy and experienced chambermaids when we can hear about , i don't know, amulets or something...

>>4454088
>and "Magic System"? why is everybody so obsessed with the mechanics of a plot device? what difference does it make whether a demon is invoked, a spell is cast, an amulet does it or you're born with a talent? if it becomes a crucial point in your story, you might want to rethink your story. I blame Lin Carter for this...
I find that people fairly new fantasy are more concerned about magic systems and world building in general.

>>4454149
Why the obsession with worldbuilding though? until you have a story to tell, the world is sort of pointless. Is this a n offshhot of video and tabke top gaming?

>>4454268
That sounds more like a shonen anime than any fantasy I have ever read.

Biggest Mary that ever Sued.
Not only is he the smartest person in the world and best magician in the world, he also becomes a fucking ninja and gets super sex god powers. Fucking rediculous.

>>4454116
What you just gave is shit fantasy. Well written good fantasy shouldn't pull a deus ex machina or something like it. I mean what well written story does? (this is of course excluding actual gods moving around in the story ala American Gods where close to everything is technically if you think about it)

>>4454149
The various magic systems are just flavor that enhances the experience. World building is often necessary when you put your characters on Not-Earth or Weird-Earth-Variant. Can you imagine LOTR trilogy minus the world building? For one thing, you'd be confused as fuck. It'd read like a hippie's LSD dream. I mean more so than ever.

>>4454370
shit fantasy was what i was going for, so thanks. But the point i was making was that it's all deus ex machina. It might be a good idea for the writer to know the limits of the magic system, but for god's sake keep the reader in the dark, except for very vague limits, dropped in as foreshadowed hints so that they're not confused.

Yoou chose lord of the rings as an example, and it's a good choice: we never get a clue in the actual story how the magic is supposed to work, and our primary viewpoint characters aren't that interested. it's just "something some people can do, sometimes, who cares? pass the gravy" which is exactly where it should be from the reader's perspective. Also, it's always always, used as a deus ex machina in lord of the rings. there's very seldom any hint that anyone can, say, return from the dead, talk to animals, rain fir, or raise and command ghosts, until they actually do it.

And as far as "world building" in LOTR it's mostly off satge and very familiar and conventional: the little bits that intrude on the readers attention are mere hints, as they should be: you can read the appendices and the silmarillion and the footnotes to the footnotes if you like, but if you need to to understand the story, you're doing it wrong. Tolkien's world has different names and some fancy races and a few new cultures but there's nothing there that needs a lot of explanantion, and there's really niothing there that a lot of explanation wouldn't kill. Knowing the limits and the rules and the methods of the elves magical powers would only help if the elves were viewpoint characters, which would kill a lot of the mystery and romance.

and this i think is a lot of what's wrong with Rotfuss and others of their ilk: they show the work, take you on a tour and teach you a seminar in a lot of boring, made up stuff that would be a lot more glamourous and exciting glimpsed peripherally. And the thing i hate is the horrid colloquialization and modernity of his viewpoint character's mindset and opinions. He's almost as bad as Goodkind.

>>4454404
>It might be a good idea for the writer to know the limits of the magic system, but for god's sake keep the reader in the dark
That'd make it more of a deus ex.

If the rules of magic are clear to the reader, then when something happens because of magic, it isn't deus ex.

There's value in mystery and vagueness but it has nothing to do with deus ex machina.

>>4452951
>Characters come and go
Sorry, which characters come and which go? Are you referring to his bartender, who has stayed with him all this time?
Or his mates at school, whom are pretty devoted to him help him almost constantly? (Harry Potter style)?
Or the whorish love-interest that appears and disappears whenever the plot is dragging?

>The Main Character goes through genuine hardships and isn't some destined or demi-god human
Yet, he survives all of those hardships mostly unharmed. Because it's a self insert Gary Stu.

>Oh, but he's not a demi god! He's just lying, being unreliable, making himself bigger than he actually is.
That doesn't save this piece of shit series.

>>4452867
Wait till you find out he repeats pages 150-300 6 more times through this and the second book.

>Kvothe goes to admissions board
>Spars with professors
>They Assign Him Tuition
>He takes out a loan
>spends 50 pages making money/messing with rich prick
>he succeeds
>moans over manic pixie dream girl/ex/current prostitute
>D&D adventure based on his revenge quest
>repeat again and again

>>4453754
Try Locke Lamora as a standalone.

>>4453956
As someone with a lot to read, I cannot devote myself to another Malazan or Wheel of Time series either. That was 11,000 pages (as per wikipedia) that ended with a whimper (in both cases)

Considering all fantasy has is Tolkien, couple of classics and GRRM from modern era authors I'd call it a shit genre. It's the genre I've read quite a bit, enough that I nearly regret spending time with it when I could've just read what I mentioned before.

>>4454352
And you know when Rothfuss wrote it, he imagined himself as Kvothe

fantasy threads are like swag rap threads on /mu/ and desktop threads on /g/

>>4452982
>>4452886
>>4452902
GRRM went and butchered his own fantasy series completely and it's still by far the best the newer fantasy has to offer. Funny.

That's how low of a genre it is.

Science fiction had much better run, no?

>>4454478
hard to disagree with you, but lets give Robert Howard and Lovecraft a shout out too.

>>4454485
An understatement

>>4454490
The area sci-fi covers is just so much bigger than fantasy that's stuck with its Tolkien traits.

Way more inspiring to read them.

I stopped reading it around page 300 I think. I was enjoying it at the start but it really turned into Harry Potter, (gary sue), goes to college.

Also the writing took a weird turn and seemed to become really cliched. It's like Rothfuss lost all his steam around the half-way mark. A shame really

>>4454485
So, what are some good Sci-Fi books, that came out lately?

>>4454509
Define lately since AGOT came up in the 90s and I classified it as 'new fantasy'.

>>4454412
the rules are just a misdirection though. because explain it how you will, in boring, pointless, exhausting detail if you like, it's all basically fiat: it's a plot device, the same way a gun or a car or a lucky coincidence is. detail is wholly unnecessary and a "magic system" does far more harm than good in that it takes a lot of the mystery out of the writing. You need rules and limits and knowledge like this to play a game, not to read a story. It's nice to know them yourself if you're writing it, but, again, for god's sake never bore the reader with them. Would it really have helped lord of the rings if the powers, limits and allegiances of the balrog had been known to the hobbits (or the reader) before gandaf encountered it? Gandalf knew, and wisely didn't explain it. and it would have hurt the whole impact of the balrog scene if the reader (or aragorn) had known that gandalf didn't necessarily have any vulnerabilities he couldn't overcome., even mortality.
Tolkien has several "limits of power" scenes but most of them, fittingly, involve interpreting words: at the gate of Moria, "no man's hand shall slay", stuff like that. the rules here are iplied by the rules of language. Other places when he says something is beyound his power, or within saruman's he doesn't explain anyhting.

the idea of knowing the coarse and fine of magical systems or fantasy worlds in order to understand and appreciate them i think derives from games. Broad strokes, like in Tolkien, or Vance, are really all you need, if even that. MAgic is supposed to be a surprise, and a good writer can use it convincingly, and fairly, without getting out the slide rula and the log tables everytime somebody throws a thunderbolt or finds a ring. I blame gary gygax as much as anybody for this.

>>4454478
Bullshit. Modern fantasy is far deeper and broader than you seem to understand. Read Suzannah Clarke, Le Guin, Wolfe, Vance, Borges or Cabell. then rejoin the conversation.

>>4454519
I dont need to.

I just read science fiction if I want better escapism .

>>4454519
>Gene Wolfe.
80s shit is now modern?

or are you implying his newer work is on level of his older?

>>4454503
I keep hearing this, yet i get no answer when i ask for a list of tolkien inspired books. I get Urshurak, Sword of Shanarra, Eragon, and a few others. I find very few fantasy works based on tolkien except for obviously game-informed stuff like dragonlance and that ilk. I would consider scienc fiction to be a branch of fantasy, if anything.

>>4454528
Any twentieth century shit is modern. what standard would you use?

>>4454479
No. Manet=Rothfuss

>>4454543
No. Manet is Rothfuss inserted into the story, but Kvothe is was Rothfuss imagined himself as being.

>>4454533
pretty sure he's thinking within the last 20 years

>>4454514
>the rules are just a misdirection though. because explain it how you will, in boring, pointless, exhausting detail if you like, it's all basically fiat: it's a plot device
Yes, of course it's a fucking plot device (just like anything else in a story which matters), but it isn't deus ex.

People forget that kvothe isn't actually that smart or all that powerful. He's simply a little good looking and talented enough to get by.

There comes a point when people coasting through life like that get bit off hard.

And as we've seen from the beginning, he's somehow lost his powers and also awoken some evil coming to swallow the world.

Sure, the first two books are straight wish-fulfillment. But you know at the end of this everyone he knows is going to be dead, he'll be impotent with the gates of hell crashing down around him, and ultimately he'll die fighting impotently against things he set in motion when he was younger and didn't know what he was doing.

If this ends up being the tragedy I hope it is, fucking 10/10

>>4454562
Weird. hard to think in that short a period. i'd say most of the really good authors of the last twenty years havent even done any really good work yet. I mean crap like Eragon is ten years old already Harry Potter is within three years of being "pre-modern" or "classic" or whatever term. twenty years is way too narrow a period. A hundred would work better. I think of "Modern" as "anything not in the public domain"

>>4454574
give me some examples of the difference. i think we're in definition confusion here. I think gandalf pulling out a machine gun would be deus ex, but also i'd say coming back from the dead is just as bad.

>>4454596
I don't think it will be anything any good. I have only read the first book and part of the second, and it is the storytelling that puts me off: the modernisms and flatness of the characters and the plodding, lackluster narration. It could be a good story maybe, in the hand's of a better writer, but rotfuss ain't it. and whereever the series goes won't be worth following i'm afraid.

>>4454605
Yeah, Gandalf coming back was a literal deus ex. It's an unintroduced actor or plot element popping up from nowhere and resolving a storyline, or untying a know the writer has made out of his own plot.

>>4452867
first off /lit/ is so pretentious it makes /mu/ seems humble

also /lit/ thinks they're above fantasy/sci-fi genre

However, this series is mediocre, and just look at all the parallels to harry potter, repetitive to the point of verbatim major event occurrences, but just take it for what it is and enjoy it

>>4453485
this is the most coherent thing i think I've ever heard from one of these threads about a fantasy book

>>4454654
i disagree. I think /lit/ sees themselves as connoisseiurs of fantasy aswell as of most literature, and only a few trolls and lowbrows reject it , or any genre fiction, out of hand.

>>4454528
>>Gene Wolfe.
>80s shit is now modern?

The Wizard/Knight is great and it is fairly new.

>>4453732
He's the best at everything ever, except talking to that one girl. How is that not him being a Mary Sue?

>>4454699
And he is actually good at talking to Denna, he just does not have the balls to do anything about it because Pat is a hack and comes up with the most retarded reasons to keep them apart. This will they wont they shit is worse than on TV shows that drag that sort of stuff

>>4454707
>This will they wont they shit is worse than on TV shows that drag that sort of stuff

Wut

Fun fact: there's a Kingkiller Chronicles TV show in the works
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/07/patrick-rothfuss-name-of-the-wind-television-show

Also a fun fact, the series is called "Kingkiller chronicles", yet in 2 whole books no king has been featured.

Everyone complains about Mary/Gary Stus in fantasy that are totally awesome at everything and loved by everyone. Are there any books that go in the opposite direction? Not just "flawed" characters, but ones that are shit at everything they do and their failures build and build until everything comes crashing down?

>>4454845
Bring Me the Head of Prince Charming

>>4454933
Sounds intriguing. I'll check it out.

>>4454699

Because he's not the best at everything. He's good at a lot of things but he's not good enough at any one thing to have a trade or any semblance of stability in his life.

>>4454995
>have a trade or any semblance of stability
You forgot the part in which he designs some impossible magical anti-arrow device for carts which brings him in a steady income.

>>4455017
>impossible
At least read the damn book.
>which brings him in a steady income
Until the thing becomes obsolete once bandits adapt or a better product appears on the market. As Kote he doesn't seem to be swimming in excess cash.

>>4452886
I think it's safe to say that /lit/ reads for different reasons than you do.

Don't be mad.

>>4455023
It was an impossible device because in the whole history of humanity's travels by cart and since alchemy's discovery, nobody considered making one because it's so ridiculous.

So, yes, even with that magical system in place and explaining every detail, it seems a pretty far-fetched thing.

I mean, on one hand you have guys invoking the power of the wind, to then guys building magic lamps, then this guy comes up with a little box that stops any arrow.

And now that I think about it, about the whole stability thing you brought up, he goes from being poor and unemployed to singing for that tavern. Then helping some rich guy with his romantic enterprises, to the building of shit to support himself. Now he has owned a tavern for a while.
I'd say he's always looking for that stability. And now, he kind of got it.

>>4452902
>being this insecure

You do realize that this whole thread is the same phenomenon in reverse, right?

>>4454530
It's because of the use of dwarves and elves, and their portrayal, which is similar to Tolkien's.

>>4454845
Half of A Song of Ice and Fire is exactly that.

>>4455047
nothing is impossible with magic

don't go full retard

>>4455135
but aside from the books I listed, and tabletop game inspired stuff, who's doing that? I have hundreds of fantasy books going back to almost when tolkien published the hobbit and i find very very few instances of either dwarves or elves similar to his except in very marginal ways. (there are human sized elves and fairies and such, ala Midsummer Night's Dream) and the only dwarves I can think of before the movies came out are those in the books i mentioned and the ones who make a token appearance in "The Drawing of the Dark". And if a major tolkienesque work has come out since the LOTR movies I habven't seen it. are you referrring to those "Dwarves" books i keep running into? I don't think pure pastiche counts as anything but that.

>>4452886
> (albeit a bit bloated)
In four thousand or so pages, ,ASoIAF has introduced us to 1700 characters.

Do you think that is only a bit bloated?

>>4455047
>And now, he kind of got it.
At the cost of everything else, at least from what we know so far.

>>4455159
True. The Starks cannot catch a break.

>>4453505
Its written completely differently than his other books, stylistically it reads like someone else wrote it. Also the pacing is off; very slow compared to all the rest of works.

>>4453558
Sometimes you do. And sometimes you have a 3 books in 5 years or less contract with Orbit.

Abercrombie himself said the following about Red Country in an interview (won't link it but you can google, this is legit verbatim:

>>Red Country was pretty draining.
>>Not that I’m not totally delighted with the results because, you know, brilliant book and all that, but I found it hard work. >>Felt burned out at times.
>>Felt like I was having to reach a long way for new ideas, new ways of doing things.

>>4456259
do you think he will continue with the same setting? i can only see him writing combat heavy novels with jaded characters physically and/or emotionally scarred. turn weakness into strength, body horror into advantage, that sort of thing. i'd like to see him paraphrasing someone other than grrm. find a new writer to copy.

The problem with fantasy books is at the end of the day, you're getting delivered a story that tells you how to think, feel, and cope. You don't read The Song of Ice and Fire for it's meaning, you read it so you can find out what happens to all these characters. Then you're done.

Which is more interesting to discuss, The Stranger by Camus or another fantasy book on top of the pile of others that are purely decorative.

>>4455984
you mean lannisters
>cersei predestined to die with jaime and tommen and myrcella thanks to martin the frog's penchant for blows of the fate
>kevan dead
>tywin dead
>tyrion a targaryen bastard born out of rape
>that uncle that went into the forsaken lands to search for a blade and perished

and most of them were great characters. he barely killed two starks (zombies are un-dead), one of which no one in their right mind cared anything about. hurr young wolf hurr uncle how dare you stop tywin's offensive you think we stayed for plunder hurr look how incredulous i am hurr my wife she comforted me hurr let me tie my wolf here hurr undefeated in the field hurr

>>4456309

He's got a YA trilogy next, and then he's planning another trilogy in the First Law world for 2017.

>>4456332
ah well i hope at least morgan finishes his trilogy right.

>>4456309
Definitely.

He signed another contract with Gollancz (UK)/Orbit(US) for a second trilogy set in the first law world + a single standalone also in world.

>>4456327
Anyone else hoping Rickon comes out of this a feral warlord/king in the north who just fucking kills everyone?

>>4456361
howland reed is one of the few characters that i'm still interested in.

>>4456361
Leaked prologue from The Winds of Winter:

"Awww yeah, growing up on Skagos like a fucking boss. Getting ripped from killing unicorns and drinking their magic blood for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Thanks for bringing me to Skagos, Osha, this place is the shit. What? Cannibals, you say?. Shit's hardcore. Don't talk to me about the most dangerous game, me and Shaggy are ready to fuck shit up, we'll eat every motherfucker on this island. Oh what, Davos, you're coming to save me? No need, fuckhead, I just swam the Bay of Seals because I'm that much of a badass"

>>4456372
it's funny how martin now has a problem with setting the timetable since unless he jumps at least 5-10 years into the future, dragons will be useless in combat. one decent spear chucker is all it takes and that's before longbowmen come into play.

that zombie bear would probably kill all three of them.

>>4453005
>not liking alayne, victation, arya or tyrion's hilarious interludes with dany
Why.jpg

>>4456486
Apparently no one likes Victarion. That makes me sad.

>>4454707

there's nothing to do.

If kvothe was remotely interested in having a significant other he'd have one.

He's not interested in that, and Denna isn't either.

He knows that as a young pretty woman constantly in the court of wealthier, connected, more stable men with very fine, expensive tastes isn't finding their life attractive enough to settle down, there's little he could do.

He knows that when she slows down she's going to be looking for someone like him.

even then, he doesn't trust her because he knows that she used men for money and goes through a LOT of it living a life on the road that is sometimes not far above his status in life, which he spends veritable pennies on. He knows something about her and her on-the-run lifestyle is weird, and he knows that if he presses her for information she'll disappear, because that world's disconnected enough that you can do things like that.

I don't know if i'd go sofar as to call Denna a "strong female character", but her motives and actions are pretty easy to cipher out and, in my opinion, she acts quite a lot like an actual girl with a pretty face, loose morals and a bad case of wanderlust WOULD act.

>>4456486
>arya
aka the girl with two identical chapters over two books?

as for the rest, i can't see how liking them has anything to do with the fact that the endgame will leave little room for character development. who cares about littlefinger's schemes when dark god's army of evil snowmen marches across the land?

>>4454054
>Too much "I LOOKED INTO HIS EYES AND OH SHIT THIS IS KVOTHE THE ETERNAL COOL GUY WHERE HE WALKS THE EARTH SPLITS HE'S SO AWESOME I AM IN AWE YOU SHOULD BE IN AWE TOO READER ARE YOU IN AWE RIGHT NOW YOU REALLY SHOULD BE HE'S AWESOME OH SHIT HE IS BREAKING DOWN IN THIS SCENE THAT SHOWS YOU THAT HE IS AWESOME YET STILL VERY HUMAN AWW POOR ALL POWERFUL KVOTHE KILLER OF SATAN DON'T BE SAD"

>>4454786
Are you fucking kidding me

>>4454845
Prince of Thorns

>>4457180
Seconding this

>>4456322
the Stranger has been discussed to death. Try discussing "Little, Big" or "Peace" or "Free Live Free" oreven "Protector" by Niven. Or Classic Fantasies like Dunsany or Eddison. Less coverage and a lot to talk about

>>4456322
What? No. You could say that of any novel ever. It depends on how you read the book, with whatever mental disposition you can muster. Relating to a character is not reading for plot's sake, which is the first impulse any reader of 'cool' characters has. Relating though is arguably convenient.

I didn't read ASOIAF just to know how it ended. I feel for those characters, and not always whatever the fat bastard is telling me to feel.

Same thing with TBoNS (ok, more of SF than Fantasy, but whatever). The story was simply the medium to contemplate what the world had become.

>>4457180
Has this series ended?

>It's time for Prince Honorous Jorg Ancrath to return to the castle he turned his back on, to take what's rightfully his. Since the day he hung pinned on the thorns of a briar patch and watched Count Renar's men slaughter his mother and young brother, Jorg has been driven to vent his rage.
>Jorg Ancrath
>Bruce Wayne setting

Feels pretty fucking generic to me. Please convince me to try it :p (only if the series is finished)

>>4457418
The series is finished, but I don't know why it was recommended to you. Jorg is a ruthless anti-hero who does fail at times, but he is quite successful at his attempts.

>>4454476
YFW Locke Lamora is the first of a 7 book series.

>>4456322
>You don't read The Song of Ice and Fire for it's meaning, you read it so you can find out what happens to all these characters. Then you're done.
Uh, right...

>>4457418

I really enjoyed the first one, so then I got the other two. Might read them next. It seems like fantasy to begin with, then you realise it's post-apocalyptic.
It reminded me of Abercrombie mixed with Clockwork Orange: lots of dark humour and horrible people.
If that interests you, go ahead.

I put up with Kvothe's Mary Sue ass until the end of the second book when he got to the homeland of the mysterious ascetic warrior monk elf-stand-in Aryan people who love to fuck and I just couldn't stand it any longer.

The Name of the Wind is just ok. Everything goes to shit in the sequel.

>>4454039
>The Warded Man
>Elric of Melnibone
My African American!

Although Desert Spear has really gone down hill and I don't hear too many good things about the Daylight War.

>>4454530
>I would consider scienc fiction to be a branch of fantasy, if anything.

science-fiction and fantasy are both branches of speculative fiction

Most of lit's threads are either about books you're supposed to like and read because they're sophisticated, or because you need to read them to be "well read", or about books that are popular but seen in the eyes of /lit/ as terrible or somehow unworthy because they are not sophisticated, and you don't need to read them to be well read.

This thread is neither of those.

This thread if for books you LIKED. Books you ENJOYED. Not because of some preconceptions on how objectively good or bad it was, but because you found it to be FUN to read it. Tell us about the books you sat down with and couldn't stop reading, and tell us why.

I'll start with this, The Lies of Locke Lamora. I've got a soft spot for heist books, and this really hit all the marks for me; I loved the way the Camorri were, and the way religion and medicine were handled in a way that it actually felt like the intended time period, and not the 21st century imposed onto another setting. The cutthroat wit and general style of the main characters had me laughing out loud several times as well.

Most of lit's threads are either about books you're supposed to like and read because they're sophisticated, or because you need to read them to be "well read", and traditionally both of these things are highly synonymous with books that are well written, so there is nothing wrong with urging people to read most books for this reason. If you find you do not like the books cited, then you either do not understand them well enough to like them, as is the case with more complex books, or you simply do not like the best that literature has to offer and would be more suited towards some other form of recreational entertainment in which you can truly excel, such as video-games or comic books. This is a board dedicated to the discussion of LITERATURE, for people to develop their appreciation of PLAY WITH LANGUAGE, not a little cubbyhole for you to waste everyone's time with trying to demystify your scrambled brain on why you got sensory stimulus from written text.

Pale Fire. A truly great book, I loved it because I love excellent wordplay and storytelling, both of which are characteristic of excellent literature. This is all the consummate reader needs to care about.

>>4453724
You read a lot of this book. I couldn't get past that city when he meets that man who tell stories or some shit like that.

I disliked this book so much. Kvothe is a terrible character, imo. He's such a mary sue "but anon, it's HIS pov of the story, maybe he's not so perfect". Fuck this. The three books will be in his pov, and this argument is shit. It doesn't make the book look good.

I looked up on the internet for the part he meets the sex-goddess and it's so cringe worthy. I'm so glad I didn't even finished the first book, nor did buy the second one. I read about 25% of the first book, and sold it to a friend, who by the way loved it.

>>4460651
Why didn't you start a new thread for this? Everybody is either answering OP or just talking about why OP's book is shit.

>>4453724
>Also all the University/lute playing scenes were so dull I started ripping my own hair out.

How the hell do you even fuck up a wizard going to school story? Rowling did it and she knows jack shit about good writing.

>>4452867
Bro, this book is awesome, I personally love Patrick's writting style, he is fucking clever and the book is fucking clever, the story and the misteries are very well managed and the characters are very realistic, the "fantasy" makes sense and it feels he really put alot of hardwork on it, I have to admit that the pacing is irregular for some parts you feel like an incident has nothing to do with the main storyline but everything aports to Kvothe, its a great book and you will enjoy it to the very last bit

>>4456576
That's far from true. He's the most unintentionally funny character in the series.

i can't believe i went through this entire thread of 140+ replies and will be the first one to say:

your definition and /lit/'s definition (insofar as one can reliably speak of /lit/ as a hivemind/groupthink) of good are different.

genre fiction readers generally read for plot, themes, action, world-building, super-human themes, in other words everything that the text refers to, designates or the book's abstract content.

literature and people who venerate 'classics,' 'canon' and so on read for how something is written. although enriched by some of the stuff mentioned above, the reading focus is on style, prose, diction, syntax, sentence structure, 'merely-human' themes and engaging with the 'literary tradition'

earlier someone mentioned being able to enjoy a philly cheesesteak sandwich without lamenting that it's not foie gras or etc: >>4453485 this is a fine analogy but the problem is when you believe the philly cheesesteak to be as good as michelin star fare. stephen king's "It" is not in the same league as paradise lost. crichton is not comparable to goethe. /lit/ takes issue when others begin to insist such things

>>4463005
I don't understand the insistence for such a clear cut division. It forces people to think of literature in more simplistic terms which is detrimental, I think. I and many others on this board don't fall into either one group or the other. What many /lit/ browsers are convinced may be a 'philly cheesesteak' has plenty of merit comparable to something 'more sophisticated', but as long as you reduce things to either 'fun entertainment' or 'literature', there's going to be a lot that you'll miss.

>>4464269
the difference is obviously not clear cut--eg vonnegut, eg garcia marquez, eg tons of ancient literature with 'monsters' and mythical creatures--i just wanted to give some clear examples so that the OP can begin to understand.

also many derive fun, entertainment, and pleasure from reading prose/literature.

Has anybody else read Bakker's books?

I think the Prince of Nothing trilogy is the best fantasy I've read so far. I'm on the first book of his second trilogy now. And then it's on to Steven Erikson. I've heard good things.

>>4464307

I enjoyed the first Prince of Nothing book, but not enough to look for the next one. It seemed almost parodic of dark fantasy at points, but it wasn't quite as dumb as a lot of what it was (intentionally? unintentionally?) mocking. Still dumb, but not without merit. Those character names on the other hand, those were truly awful.

>Erikson

avoid imo.

I can't be the only one who has no special understanding or pedestal for classics just because they are classics.

The book's good if it's good.

Why the fuck are you so fucking anal about it?

>>4457412

This is a decent post and I wish it hadn't been ignored.

>The story was simply the medium to contemplate what the world had become.

Very well put. Also, lol if anyone in here thinks that reading to find out what happens to characters isn't the same thing as "reading for the meaning".

>>4457217
>Try discussing "Little, Big"

Nah, this would require them to read fantasy that isn't marketed to teenagers, which is the only time any of the anti-fantasy tryhards on this board read fantasy at all. The inability, incompetence if you like, to carry forward their childhood passions into the mature forms of adulthood reduces them to public repudiation of their younger selves. How sad for them.

>>4464339
Because /lit/ is full of idiots who think that reading shit printed on page 15 of a victorian broadsheet, aimed at horny housewives, makes them smarter than the people who read stuff that, at the very least, isn't a newspaper sideline, just because the intervening years have made some pulp, by virtue of quantity, gain some vague cultural significance.

>>4464339
I agree, and by the same token a book is bad if it's bad. It happens that the vast majority of fantasy books are bad.

>>4464339
>>4464374
>everyone's definition of good is the same

>>4464416
>yellow marshmallow mammal experiences an acute manic episode.gif

>>4453565
and pandering to the severely depressed is?

>>4464437
Tragedies can be beautiful in ways a comedy just can't.

>>4464461
Every real work of art is comic.

>>4464416
>socrates and plato cry in heaven

>>4464487
If you are an irony of fate fag, yes.

>>4464339
They are classics because they stand above the rest of their contemporaries, if not different enough to warrant the label. There are good books, then there are great books. There's not much more to it than that.

>>4456322
This guy right here gets it.

I listen to the audiobook versions of a lot of mainstream fantasy while I work, and I really like it because I'm a intellectual child who is easily amused by shiny things, but even though I probably know most of Eddings' works by heart I can't for the life of me imagine what I'd want to talk about in a 4chan thread about them. The only time this stuff is conductive to discussion is when the series is still unfinished and you can sit theorizing about what's going to happen next. Figuring out who killed Asmodean; putting the pieces together until you realize Lorren is an Amyr, Denna is working for Cinder and the king Kvothe will kill is Ambrose; reading up on Sallic Primogeniture to win internet fights about whether it makes sense for the Kingsguard to hang out at the Tower of Joy or not; and concluding what order of Radiants Elhokar's dormant powers correspond to - these are all fun conversations the first few times you have them, but there are plenty of messageboards on the wild web where the autistic gather in droves to go over this, so just go to one of those.

Does anyone know any books that feel like the video game Dwarf Fortress? Obviously it's inspired by Tolkien but the stories it creates really have their own kind of feel to them...almost nihilistic in a voyuer sense, just observing cool shit happening

>coming of age jesus harry potter chosen one that always succeeds at anything he tries

Insert image of Penn here.

>>4467305

>>4466911
Actually that post was incredibly simplified and silly. Most fantasy I dare say is as he says, but you can't pretend all of it is. Some fantasy has merit other than its plot (although that's one aspect that is usually not given its due in literature, since so much can stem from it or be involved in forming it). Yes, including A Song of Ice and Fire.

>>4454039
>Shadow and Claw
You don't like the full book of the New Sun? Why?

>>4454528
I'm in the minority, but I like The Long Sun more than The New Sun.

>>4464307
Yeah I really like Bakker. Erikson's books are of mixed value. Some nuggests of gold buried in a bag of shite.

Why the fuck is having a "good magic system" necessary for a good fantasy? That's like liking a restaurant because the chairs are neat.

Isn't it obvious? because /lit/ is too pretentious for it's own good.

>>4466911

You also get it.

>reading for escapism
>reading for fun

>>4470477
>reading at all

You know those beta threads? Specifically where these losers make characters for themselves, where they might seem intelligent and nice but on the inside is a tortured genius who will unleash hell if pushed far enough?

Patrick Rothfuss is that guy, and Kvothe is his character.

The entire time reading it (and I read all of the first one) I kept getting visions of these anime loving sperglords who roleplay in their gay ass forums. I was mentally preparing myself for Kvothe to come across a katana at some point.

And that relationship with Denna? Ho. Ly. Shit. I think this passage right here is enough to explain (for reference, this is Kvothe's inner monologue to all the different guys his "soulmate" introduces him to:

>I have known her longer, my smile said. True, you have been insider the circle of her arms, tasted her mouth, felt the warmth of her, and that is something I have never had. But there is a part of her that is only for me. You cannot touch it, no matter how hard you might try. And after she has left you I will still be here, making her laugh. My light shining in her. I will still be here long after she has forgotten your name.

Clearly Rothfuss was extremely friendzoned at some point in his life, and it reflects in the dynamic I jsut mentioned.

Overall, pic related is Rothfuss.

>>4471211

CHAOS AND ANIME

>>4471211

I think he's quite aware of it though, and subconsciously rather bitter of the fact.

>Denna tripping balls on magic heroin, half-naked and cuddling Kvothe
>"You're so nice. You never push, she murmured. 'You could, you know? Just a little. It might get you somewhere."
>Kvothe completely ignores every part of this

Then her character goes irredeemably deep into the shitter in book two, of course.

>>4471370
>Then her character goes irredeemably deep into the shitter in book two, of course.
Everything goes deep into the shitter in book 2.

>>4471211
>>I have known her longer, my smile said. True, you have been insider the circle of her arms, tasted her mouth, felt the warmth of her, and that is something I have never had. But there is a part of her that is only for me. You cannot touch it, no matter how hard you might try. And after she has left you I will still be here, making her laugh. My light shining in her. I will still be here long after she has forgotten your name.

Jesus Christ this is a real line from the book?

>>4471211
>>4471407
Sounds a lot like what I used to tell myself while crying/masturbating myself to sleep while watching candid video of my high school crush blowing my best friend at a bus stop while people cheer her on.

Maybe this is a series for me.

>>4471418

Wow

You've had an interesting life.

Could you be the main character for my book?

>>4471441
Patrick plz go.

>>4471447

No.

All I'd have to is:

>Sounds a lot like what I used to tell myself while crying/masturbating myself to sleep while watching candid crystal ball magic video of my magic university Denna blowing my magic friend at a tavern while dragons cheer her on.

>>4471453
Brilliant. You'll be self-publishing your Kindle Single in no time.

>>4471211

You don't get it man, Deanna spends time with kvothe because she wants to, not because she can get something from him. Men and women who juggle multiple love interests (in my experience) have a friend of the opposite sex that lives like they do that they have a relationship like kvothe and Deanna. They don't see each other often, they maybe have sex, and they're extremely candid and try to impress each other with their exploits.

Its a silly, roundabout sort of love, admittedly, but don't dismiss it because you don't get it.

Ignoring the rest of the posts, since this book always causes a shitstorm, I'm just going to say I really enjoy them and am curious how third one will wrap up.

As for the whole Kvothe being a "mary sue", you really just have to look at it as a guy retelling his life story to some chronicler. Of course he's going to imbelish it out the ass and build of crazy rumours and legends about himself. The obsurdity of it all is what makes the book fun to me.