/lit/ - Literature

>>4448312

The only VNs I've ever really enjoyed are 999 and VLR. I tried to get hardcore and go through a couple that /jp/ recommends, but was ultimately let down.

Lots of people on /jp/ get these big feels for games that the uninitiated would consider softcore porn, and occasionally I would ask myself if I was really playing anything more than a flash porno. Maybe it's the writing?

>>4448327
The writing of, but not necessarily, the more sex oriented games are a letdown, but what if skilled writers and artist came together and put great effort into creating a beautiful piece that happens to use the VN medium, the medium itself has great potential for creation but it feels so unexplored and tossed aside.

No, they're video games.

What makes them literature?

>>4448383
>Literature (from Latin litterae (plural); letter) is the art of written work. The word literature literally means: "things made from letters". Literature is commonly classified as having two major forms—fiction and non-fiction—and two major techniques—poetry and prose.

i don't know

We already have a board for this, OP.

>>>/jp/

>>4448393
>Japanese culture
>a medium belongs to a culture
>expecting arguments instead of board culture from /lit/

how the cultured have fallen...

There's been a thread on this every day for the past week, stop it.

>>4448390
So anything that's written is literature?

Geez anon, you sure showed me. I guess Dragon Quest is literature, too.

>>4448404
>So anything that's written is literature?
Yes, if that fact bothers you then your love is not for written expression, but for the "i'm higher the these plebeians" attitude, you are the cancer killing /lit/.

The proper object of literature is 'text', not the medium in which that text is conveyed. One can treat the text of a visual novel as literature, as one can with the script of a soap opera, video-game, or comic book. The accompanying colourful visual phenomena meant to stimulate the drooling, slackjawed subject of these latter works is irrelevant in the main for this particular mode of analysis.

>>4448439
Then beautiful literature can come out of this medium, it's just clouded by the commercial marketing attached to it. I can only hope for a great work to appear, or should dedicate myself to creating one if i'm so inclined.

I feel that VN's have a large potential for dyslectics. A common technique for helping kids with dyslexia is to give them an audio-book to read along with, but the problem with that is that an audio-book doesn't adjust itself to your reading speed. Because voice-acting in a VN plays on a per-line basis, that would no longer be a problem in that medium. The visual representation of things in a VN does enhance the text and makes it easier to follow along with, which is something people with dyslexia struggle with. It could be an excellent stepping stone into the world of literature.

>>4448495
lol

There is nothing stopping VNs from being fine literature. Any book could easily be ported to a VN format. The question is whether any genuinely good writers will write for VNs. Also, the audio-visual components of VNs are generally subpar. Umineko is probably the only stand-alone VN that is on equal level with literature. The sprites aren't appealing but they convey far more information than the junk in Grisaia, for example.

>>4448411
>Yes, if that fact bothers you then your love is not for written expression, but for the "i'm higher the these plebeians" attitude, you are the cancer killing /lit/.
Wow what the fuck

What's it called when you actually try to prove a point by assuming everything about a person's personality based on a few things that they argued? I see that a lot but this is easily the most ridiculous example.

Just the fact that the majority of art would fit into that definition pretty much proves you wrong.

>>4448647
When arguments devolve into the definition of words, stop debating immediately. Semantics are not a worthy discussion topic.

>>4448383
>VNs
>Vidya
Nah,son.

>>4449527
lyl

The script of every single VN I've read so far can be read as a stand alone. It's literature. If it's GOOD literature is another matter.

>tfw my clannad thread got deleted in like five minutes

Clannad is better than any book published in the last 14 years, prove me wrong.

What do you guys think of Cross Channel?

>>4449597
Went into it blind, I thought the first part was so stupid. I only started liking it somewhere around Miki's chapter. I loved the ending.

dat foreshadowing

>>4449572
My proof is that it is bad, whereas good books have been published in the last 14 years.

>>4449736
Name a book published in the last 14 years, also how is Clannad bad?

not counting the character art

>>4449811
oops, *name a book published in the last 14 years that's better

>>4448312
Saya no uta was brilliant.

>>4448383
If you were to reduce it just to the 'game' bit of it, you'd click on 2 choice boxes and 'win'. Hard to call that an actual game.

I wonder how much stuff gets lost in translation for highly stylistic VNs such as those of Liar Soft or SubaHibi.

Whenever anyone brings up that they like VNs I always want to recommend Jane Austin novels to them and the troubling thing is I can't figure out if I am doing it ironically or not.

>>4449572

You obviously don't read actual books, so you won't accept any answers we give you.

But rest assured there have been plenty of books so far this century that vastly outdo your children's cartoon tripe.

>>4449864
>You obviously don't read actual books

What led you to that conclusion? I'm actually pretty well read.

>But rest assured there have been plenty of books so far this century that vastly outdo

Doesn't really seem like it since nobody has been able to name even one.

>>4448312
Not only are they literature, they are the future of literature as a hypermedium.

>>4449811
It is bad for being filled with obnoxious, archetypical characters; stupid, hackneyed jokes; and rather pedestrian melodrama. In short, it is entirely indistinguishable from every other visual novel ever created.

If you would like a superior book, try just about anything.

>>4449858
Jane Austen doesn't deserve that, Anon.

>>4449869
You're thinking of interactive fiction, especially browser-based works, Anon.

>>4449873
None of the characters were really that archetypical though and most of them have good characterization as the story progresses.

Are you sure you didn't just watch the animu? it's not as good

>>4449882
Haven't seen it, I'll watch it eventually now that you said that though.

>>4449879
The movie was actually better than either the game or the TV series.

>>4449867

No Country for Old Men
The Road
2666
Inherent Vice
The Pale King
The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao
Kafka on the Shore

this is just off the top of my head.

anyone who seriously believes no book has been released in 14 years better than fucking Clannad ("ohhh nooo mai waifu is dying of a beautiful and oh so sad unspecified wasting disease") cannot be serious, certainly not "well read."

you are a child.

>>4449888
>"ohhh nooo mai waifu is dying of a beautiful and oh so sad unspecified wasting disease"
>has The fucking Road on his list of better books

You're a funny guy mate.

>>4449883
Osamu Dezaki is one of hte most underrated directors in anime

>>4449873
You're ignoring the complex metafictional substructure. The characters and drama are really just chess pieces.

Someone post the route map analysis thing.

>>4449878
No I'm not actually. Browser based works cannot replicate the medium through which the are transmitted (hint: the world wide web). A visual novel can, and that's why they are the future.

It's amazing to me that people look at 4chan all day, but can't see browsing simulation as a possible storytelling medium.

>>4449888
haha nice list of books that have appeared on the board in the last 2 hours

>>4449901
>Someone post the route map analysis thing.
Here you go, Anonymous.

>>4449910
I swear there was one like this for Clannad.

>>4449913
Don't have it but here's the one for Little Busters

spoilered cause it contains actual plot spoilers

>>4449895
The Road has economical yet beautiful prose; two fully realized and fully human characters whose interaction is by turns unsettling, heart-rending, and joyful; a world that through its bleakness comes alive; several scenes that horrify the reader and plumb the depths of human depravity; and yet overall its message is eminently life-affirming and one of hope. It is also richly inter-textual and belongs to the best of literary traditions, standing in the company of great classics from Paradise Lost to the works of Faulkner to McCarthy's own best.

If you mean to disparage it because the apocalypse is similarly "unspecified" then you've missed the point entirely -- but in any case, the cause of the cataclysm is clear if you're paying attention, it's the Christian rapture and tribulation. Sorry that you couldn't understand this without the author coming right out and saying it. Real literature expects you to think a little and bring something to it instead of sitting there like a drooling idiot and feeling your "feels."

Clannad is a trite and facile waifu simulator for manchildren. The Road is miles above it in every single category: story, character, prose style, philosophic underpinning, thematic coherency and wholeness. That you have the arrogance and sheer ignorance to insinuate Clannad even compares is frankly depressing. I can hardly believe you're serious.

>>4449895
#rekt

>>4449888
This list is great because even the most obvious mediocre middle-brow novels are better than that crap.

>>4449918
The one I was thinking of deconstructs the plot as well.

>>4449924
All the Pretty Horses > The Road

Also both Key and McCarthy have merit. I'd be surprised if you actually finished all 300 hours of Clannad, though.

>>4449924
>If you mean to disparage it because the apocalypse is similarly "unspecified"

The father's disease is unspecified. It's literally the exact same thing as Clannad but with a cliche apocalyptic setting.

It's only praised for the same "muh feels" reason that you're using to claim Clannad sucks (which you've obviously never read, I'm assuming you skimmed the wikipedia summary before responding to my posts in this thread).

>>4449932
Well, now it's your turn. Name some better novels.

>>4449932
No it's great because the poster is claiming to be "well-read" then proceeded to list /lit/ flavor-of-the-month schlock

>>4449901
>You're ignoring the complex metafictional substructure. The characters and drama are really just chess pieces.
Expect an anime fan to consider a work a masterpiece for the most autistic possible reasons.

>>4449945
If any books did the same thing you know that all the retards here would praise its genius

>>4449935
>>4449941
I could post some obscure European books in this thread I guess but that would just be embarrassing for all of us

>>4449934
>The father's disease is unspecified.

No it isn't. He dies of complications from being shot with an arrow, in combination with lung problems from the ash.

Again, the fact that you can't pick up on even the simplest things without the author directly telling you shows that you're hopelessly incapable of engaging with real literature.

Morever, the Man dies awful and ugly. His death is depicted realistically and the reaction the Boy has to it is similarly realistic. In Clannad, Nagisa suffers a beautiful death like some kind of Victorian oil painting: soft lighting, no blemishes like incontinence or bleeding or rapid weight loss or anything else associated with a terminal disease that might conceivably kill a teenage girl; she just gets weak, coughs a little maybe, and passes away so that we can all have some sadz. It's a sanitized, childishly simplistic treatment of mortality.

>>4449952
Yes, thus Infinite Jest. Remember: there's no discernible talent.

>>4449953

By all means, go ahead.

>>4449953
>implying obscurity = quality
>"look a me guys i'm such a special snowflake i bet u haven't even heard of this book lol"

you sound like you came from /mu/

>>4449958
That is logically the only alternative to posting so-called 'flavor-of-the-month schlock' (much of which is actually great literature, btw). I'm sorry

>>4449941
>>4449969

Name ten of your favorite books.

>>4449954
>in combination with lung problems from the ash
>implying ash makes you cough blood

> It's a sanitized, childishly simplistic treatment of mortality
First of all she wasn't a teenager when she died, and she died due to complications from her disease shortly after giving birth, something that kills hundreds of thousands of women a year in the real world, hardly "unrealistic"
second, >implying Nagisa was the only person who died in Clannad or was the death that was the most shocking/sad

Again you're showing you haven't actually read it.

>>4449969
No it isn't.

>>4449985
A book is either well-known or obscure, Anonymous.

>>4449979
>implying ash makes you cough blood

You're just pretending to be retarded, right?

Coughing up blood is a hallmark of silicosis. As are the other symptoms McCarthy describes (blueing of skin, weight loss, fatigue, fingernail deterioration and so on). He clearly dies of septic shock + silicosis. This is not ambiguous at all. It's maybe the least ambiguous thing that happens in the whole novel.

>>4449987
That is the dumbest thing I've read all day.

What if Cormac McCarthy wrote a manga?

>>4449990
>silicosis

You do realize it takes about 20 years of exposure to volcanic ash for you to develop this right?

Reminder that Thomas Pynchon has a working knowledge of anime history.

>>4450008

It depends on the level of exposure. Google around a little more. Your ignorance is showing.

>>4450019
Even if it was silicosis then the son should have been affected just as much by it as the father, children get silicosis too.

Why wasn't the boy coughing up blood?

>>4450036
They only hit the road a couple months before the opening of the novel. Presumably the Boy stayed inside during most of his upbringing while the father went out to collect supplies for him and the Woman. His exposure would have been much less.

And of course the thematic answer, which is what really counts, is that the boy is a symbol of pure goodness so of course he isn't tainted by the corruption of the world around him, whereas the father is an unredeemed (and unrepentant) sinner and thus dies as punishment for his transgressions.

>>4450044
>His exposure would have been much less.

He still would have been exposed to acute amounts of it for literally his entire life though and intense amounts of it for several months.

That should be enough for him to cough up blood too.

>>4450052
He lived indoors. Also: see my second point.

The Road depicts a post-rapture world. The Man was not raptured which means he's a sinner, and he even curses God during the course of the book; his illness is divine wrath. The Boy was, unfortunately, still in the womb of an unraptured woman before the apocalypse, so he was born into the tribulation. But he is good, pure good in fact, and blameless before the Lord. He is not punished the same way the Man is.

Recognizing the religious themes in McCarthy's work is vital to even a basic understanding of the whole. His fictional worlds have a very firm moral order to them, and that order is essentially Christian (specifically Catholic).

>>4449995

Vegeta spat. Half blinded by vortices of dry and cloying dust, he gazed upon his sinewed adversary. Along the horizon the hoodoos and plateaus in their scores were untethered to the earth and nacreous beneath the brutalizing halations of a noontime sun.

Nappa spoke. What does the scouter say about that one's power level?

Como?

His power level. What does your scouter say?

The adversary came through a clearing in the dust like a man walking through the beaded curtain of a seer's shack. The two men could espy him now in all his terrible detail, a bulging golem who sought their obliteration.

Vegeta removed his scouter and cradled it in a single flexing palm. His teeth set to grinding. It's over nine thousand, he said.

What? Nine thousand?

Vegeta spat.

>>4450062
>Also: see my second point

So God intervenes to save him from silicosis but won't save him from living in an apocalyptic world? Ok, I guess.

I guess there was that deus ex machina ending too.

>>4450062
>>4450070
Also by the way a purely Catholic interpretation would imply that the boy wasn't pure and blameless, since he still had original sin due to never being baptized. Unless you're implying the boy was some kind of immaculate conception.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>4450070

It's not deus ex machina when the whole novel is spent establishing these things. Stop using terms you don't understand. McCarthy's stories may rely on moral ramifications, a kind of 'karma' if you will, but there's nothing arbitrary about what happens here. It is meticulously set-up throughout the entire work.

>>4450077

You're partially right: good job. That original sin is why the Boy is not raptured, after all, and has to suffer through the Tribulation. But he redeems himself through his works and his righteousness. When Jesus returns to Earth he will have the chance to be saved; but the man, dying unrepentant during the tribulation, is doomed to hellfire.

Fun fact: the Catholic interpretation says the tribulation lasts 7 years. Given the timeline of the book and the Boy's age, it's quite likely that the Man died just weeks or perhaps only days or hours before the Second Coming. In other words he just barely missed his chance at being redeemed. McCarthy can be wonderfully poetic and lyrical, but sometimes bleak as hell.

>>4449953
>>4449970

Please note: when asked, these posters were too cowardly and/or ignorant to step forward with alternatives to the popular books they shat on to appear more intelligent than the rabble.

This is the classic sign of the Hipster Dilettante: a person who will sit on the sidelines and snipe at anything that appears too mainstream, but who hides their own preferences from the world for fear of being judged or revealing their wholly limited expertise.

>>4450069
7/10

>>4450099
lmao

Back to the original topic, while it would be stupid to completely disregard the artistic merit of an entire medium, Clannad is probably the worst fucking example to use as an argument.

>The developers at Tactics created a simple formula for a game: a comedic first half with a heart-warming romantic middle followed by a tragic separation and finally an emotional reunion formed what is known as a "crying game". The main purpose of such a game is to make the player feel for the characters and make them cry due to emotional scenarios which serves to leave a bigger impact on the player after the game is over.

Absolutely zero authenticity, pandering while simultaneously being pretentious up its own bum.

>>4450118

galge are a male version of Harlequin novels. Pure formula and pure glurge. The best VN's leave the galge model behind entirely.

>>4450089
>Fun fact: the Catholic interpretation

The rapture is not a Catholic doctrine and never has been, it's purely Protestant. That "seven year" thing is a Protestant teaching and the Catholic church rejects all such doctrines.

Modern Catholicism actually views the Book of Revelations as completely symbolic/allegorical. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Catholic today who actually believes the world is going to end in fire and brimstone.

>but the man, dying unrepentant during the tribulation, is doomed to hellfire

Again your interpretation is flawed since you're claiming that the boy lived since he was "pure" (even though he didn't really do anything to redeem himself, and without baptism it's impossible to be redeemed) and that the father died since he was a sinner, but the entire point of Christianity is that bodily death is not really the end ("this sickness is not unto death" yadda yadda).

Really from a Christian perspective the father is the more "pure" of the two since he essentially sacrifices himself for the sake of another person which makes him into a sort of messianic figure who would surely be admitted to heaven.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>4450118
>pandering

But anon the purpose of all art is to provoke an emotional response in the person experiencing it.

>>4450132
>Modern Catholicism actually views the Book of Revelations as completely symbolic/allegorical.

This isn't true at all. Catholic doctrine is quite different from the millennialist/"Left Behind" bible belt interpretation but it leaves room for rapture and tribulationist interpretation. McCarthy is taking an old, old-school Catholic dogmatic hardline here from the book of Daniel, which outlines seven years of tribulation before the second coming. There is a great deal of Catholic eschatology in The Road.

>even though he didn't really do anything to redeem himself

He did plenty. In fact a good case can be made that he performed the Seven acts of spiritual mercy and the seven acts of bodily mercy without any prompting. The Boy is kind of like an anti-Hume, he naturally self-creates Catholic dogma. He can't even comprehend evil as such. When Jesus returns he will surely be saved. Whereas the Man is a sinner by definition (he wasn't raptured and not just because of original sin) and he commits plenty of sins along the way -- stealing the thief's clothes, refusing to help the needy, etc. He is certainly not pure and his sacrifice is not needed to redeem the boy; at best you can make a Judas-type case of the Man's sins being necessary to set up some of the Boy's merciful works, but that certainly doesn't forgive the Man.

>>4450131
>The best VN's leave the galge model behind entirely.

Clannad was the first to use the model though, and the fact that it does what it does so well is one of its biggest strengths.

Before Key came along most galge were more 'game-ish' in the sense that they were usually almost entirely plotless and were more focused on things like gaining and maintaining relationship points or whatever and juggling a harem.

I mean you can hardly call something "formulaic" when there was literally nothing like it before. I don't think any of you guys have ever actually played it though.

>>4450153
>This isn't true at all

Yes it is, the Catholic church has always vehemently denied any "rapture"-related doctrines. You're true that Catholic dogma leaves room for some sort of apocalyptic tribulations, but they insist that *all* people must suffer through these tribulations, not just sinners.

>Whereas the Man is a sinner by definition

Which should all have been forgiven with his sacrifice. He didn't sacrifice himself to "redeem" the boy he sacrificed himself to save the boy's life, making him more of a Jesus-type case than a Judas.

>>4450165
Catholic authorities have never specifically repudiated the doctrine of rapture (to my knowledge), although it's certainly a heterodox interpretation -- and it probably doesn't fit with "true" Catholic dogma, no, I grant. The Road is still kind of a Catholic version of Left Behind though -- in fact I believe The Road is McCarthy's response to the rise of protestant millennialism.

I suppose it's also possible that there was no rapture in The Road's apocalypse. The only glimpse we get of the actual event is a flashback to the opening of the seals, and then another flashback referencing the formation of cults and shit on the roadside, all stuff from Revelation. Nothing in that necessitates that there was a rapture -- but I think it makes more sense, and again, fits as McCarthy's response to the bible-thumping left behind crowd.

Hybrid.
Half lit, half game. Pretty much like a book of 'pick your own adventure'.

A lot of them are bad, but there are pretty good vn's to read.
>pic related: Ever17, a must play VN

>>4450269
Engrish title, no thanks

Please forgive for linking to reddit, but I thought the top post in this thread was very interesting.

http://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/17b1vx/literature_similar_to_visual_novels_have_you_ever/

>>4450290
>Please forgive for linking to reddit

no

Umineko No Naku Koro Ni is in a lot of ways a response to the state of the modern detective novel. It attempts to explore what role a detective should have in a story, and what makes a good mystery. It is a very experimental meta-story.

If the prose wasn't terrible, if it wasn't twice the lenght of War and Peace (not needed to make the point that it did), and if it didn't repeat the same thing over and over and over, I could consider it literature.

>>4450290
That thread was interesting to read, thank you.

/a/ here, Clannad is entry-tier moeshit, plebeians.

They can be but the poorfag companies can't really afford the best of anything, be it writing, art, translations, or music.
The only VN-esque thing I've really enjoyed is Ace Attorney.