/lit/ - Literature

>>4388550
anarchy

>>4388550

bad religion

The cynicism and obscenity of Diogenes, of course.

>>4388550


*whips out dick*

>>4388550
None, actually. Philosophy is the research for truth, whereas if th punk rock movement is even a thing (I mean as in a movement with a coherent system of ideas - which I'm pretty sure it's not), it has definitely nothing to do with the search of truth.

>>4388550
Obviously anarchism.

>>4388550
selling out

eating your own poop

Diogenes, Stirner.

>>4388738
>johnny hobo

pls the feels

>>4388550

diogenes and bakunin

punk here.

punk is based on situationist philosophy.

with a good deal of amateur anarchism thrown in, depending on which punk you ask.

so you have some punks who are into anarchism (philosophical anarchism, like kropotkin or malatesta, w/e)

and some punks who are into breaking shit which isnt anarchism.

but really, punk is based on situationism, look it up.

>>4388853
>breaking shit which isnt anarchism.
stop oppressing me, liberal

>>4388860
i see what you did there lol

im not even gonna get into individualist anarchism, it is a waste of my time, and yours.

its a shame a bunch of greeks are getting tossed into prisons for following this stupid shit that changes nothing at all.

>>4388860
also, implying that there's only ONE philosophy involving breaking shit. capitalism also breaks shit.

>>4388853
What you're saying is true if you also consider EVERYONE involved in May of '68 to be situationists. Punk, as a fashion/musical subculture, is not something you have to UNDERSTAND in order to BE - and be genuinely. (Sid Vicious was punk as fuck, but probably couldn't even spell situationist, much less understand it.)

While I don't disagree that there is a really strong connection (even paternal or maternal) between situationists and punks, saying that gg allin was influenced by guy debord is a stretch.

>>4388566
Mah nigga.

>>4388550
ubermensch atheist

Objectivism.

Anarchism. Forget about "Anarchy in the UK" Rotten was just trying to shake things up. Bands like Crass had members who identified as anarchists in classical philosophical sense.

Anarcho-punk

How do you not know this? Go listen to some Crass

>>4388826

>pls the feels

You can't stop it man just embrace it

I don't know where I fit between the vegans and the nihilists
That might be the first thing I've said that wasn't a lie tonight
'Cause there's gotta be something more
Than lying in the front yard naked screaming at the constellations
I want something more than an apology to say
When I look the world in the eye

I'll tell you, man, my friend william came to me with a message of hope
It went, "fuck you and everything that you think you know
If you don't step outside the things that you believe they're gonna kill you"
He said, "no one's gonna stop you from dying young and miserable and right
But if you want something better, you gotta put that shit aside"
I thought about how for thousands of years
There have been people who told us that things can't go on like this
From Jesus Christ to The Diggers
From Malthus to Zerzan
From Karl Marx to Huey Newton
But the shit goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

Now I'm not saying that we can't change the world
Because everybody does at least a little bit of that
But I won't shit myself: the way I'm living is a temper tantrum
And I need something else, need something else
Need something else to stay alive (ohohoh)

>>4388860
Black bloc shitheads discredit the Anarchist movement as a whole, and often are agent provocateurs or whatever

Like in Ukraine right now, the violent folks agree paid by the government to be violent to discredit the actual protests

Also
> anarchists
> liberal

>>4388886
Did you see how I implied that your notion that 'breaking shit isn't anarchism' is a ridiculous intuitive adherence to some skewed notion of conventional property rights?

>>4388550
Nietzsche.

>>4388914
The intellectual giest doesn't need to be understood for it to function

>>4388626
Wow, no.

>>4389071
>Black bloc shitheads discredit the Anarchist movement as a whole
The only people i ever saw discrediting the black bloc are the media or dogmatic pacifists and the people who care about either one of those. I went to my part of demonstration and been in a few black bloc myself, most of my friends don't get in the bloc but all agree that they feel safer when we are there. When there is a black bloc you know that when the police charges, and they always do, you will have someone to face them so that the people not ready to get paper sprayed/gazed/batoned/arrested can escape safely. There actually are people who come to us and thank us.

> be violent to discredit the actual protests
How is being violent bad ? Being violent is good, buddy. The government is supposed to have the monopoly of violence (monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force, as Weber put it), therefore they don't want you to be violent. When you are, you are taking that monopoly from them.

>>4390095
> paper sprayed
lol i meant pepper sprayed

Bakunin,Stirner, Nietzsche and Diogenes.

>>4389029
niggah pleaz.

>>4390056
>Hipster fags thinking "punk" is a search for "meaning"
I bet you listen to Crass you edgemeister.

>>4390095
>most of my friends don't get in the bloc but all agree that they feel safer when we are there
That's the police, you faggot. Bloc fags always incite the riots.
>Burning police cars that tax payers will have to replace
Seriously I fucking hate them.

>>4392107
>aristotelic fags STILL thinking philosophy is able to find meaning
do you even german

>>4389046
Crass was also Existentialist. Prime example, Big A, Little A.

>>4389070
No more Pat, please.

I happen to be a Wittgensteinian anarchist. LES Master Race reporting in.

>>4392355

>Bloc fags always incite the riots.

Perhaps more of them are necessary then.

Also, fuck the taxpayer.

>>4392481
All for riots, not for anarchy. It's just libertarianism + 1. Can we say survival of the fittest? That said, in the specific role of taking down this US capitalist empire, I'm all for it. But if they touch my socialist republic....

>>4392481
Ha! 4chan is blocking me for saying I would be for some rioting. Lame

If punk culture had anything to do with rebellion, than it would probably be some flavor of Absurdism. Buddhism also deals with embracing change and moving beyond social conservatism. Personally I think punk rock ran its course as a culture, and doesn't really have any enduring tenets to live by.

>>4392355
>2013
>being a statist

>>4392702
You're seriously misguided. There's plenty of good stuff still coming out with concrete tenets. I agree with your assessment of it being absurdist because living in/against an oppressive society is an absurd struggle.

>>4392590
>believing that anarchy is social Darwinism

>>4392355
>Replacing police cars that anarchists will have to burn
Biggest waste of taxpayer money.

>>4390466
Throw in some Renzo Novatore and The Invisible Committee and I think you're good.

Do blocfags in general oppose gun control?

Because I met a couple of left-leaning "anarchists" whose solution to violence was "well if nobody HAD guns in the first place then there would be no need for guns OR gun control".

>>4392852
Like what? I would wager that nobody posting on /lit/ is old enough to have any exposure to "punk" culture proper. What "concrete tenets" exist that are uniquely punk or have been popularized by the punk movement other than rebellion? Anti-materialism? Nonconformity? I wouldn't credit punk with popularizing any of those things. I'm not sure how I am misguided.

>>4392913
That's stupid.

It's inaccurate to assume that "the" black bloc is ever comprised of a homogenous group, for one thing, but if we're talking about anarchists, there have been some who openly embrace firearms for whatever reason.

For example: http://zinelibrary.info/piece-now-peace-later-anarchist-introduction-firearms

>>4392913
>no guns
>anarchists

fucking posers

>>4388853
>punk here
oh god my fucking sides just exploded

>>4392924
>patriotism
>anarchism

>>4388886
Oh my god, please kill yourself.

>>4392903
Maybe not the fittest but certainly the cruelest.. Do you actually think people would look out for one another without the state? It would be dog eat dog. Whoever accumulated some guns and power first would quickly start enslaving everyone. This is why there has never and will never be anarchy except as a specific reaction to a specific government. If you don't have a theory of seizing power you're just handing it over to the most violent, forceful, exploitative creep to come along after you. What is more, if you start anarchy now without any levelling of the playfield, you are just going to see the wealthiest people and corporations take over. The state is the only force through which everyone else can agregate their power to counter wealth, even if it doesnt work now as well as it should. Anarchy plays into the GOP's hands. That is why the government blacklisted commies and let the anarcho-capitalist communes thrive.

>>4393078
there already is anarchy
governments are large groups of people with guns and power functioning in a space with no leader, unless you believe in god
durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

>>4393082
then you must be happy
>thinking the gov is worse than corporations.

>>4393083
i'm not the guy you were talking to before

>>4393086
so?

>>4393089
so i have no idea what you're trying to say

>>4393078
Technically, that society, for it to be an anarchist one, would have to be thoroughly organized. It wouldn't be chaos.

>>4393091
if you want anarchy and you think living under governments is anarchy, then you must be hapoy. and you are making the very basic error of thinking the government is a problem without even mentioning corporations, which are a much bigger problem.

>>4393094
if you are talking about an organized society in which the state whithers, you are talking abiut marxism, and you would still have to pass through a mich larger state to get to that point, thus why left wing politicians everywhere support the state and government involvement in the economy

>>4393103
>Communities can't organize themselves without the government
In an actual anarchist society, people would level the field.
Someone's got a bigger bum stick than yours? The people that you think that will become slaves will kill him or die trying. Anarchist society would just have one ideal which is liberty.
Also, Anarch-communism > every other anarchism

>>4393098
when did i say anything about wanting anarchy
like i said i'm not the guy you were talking to

>>4393112
anarchy already exists and it doesn't look like what anarchists say it should

>>4393123
Anarchists don't want anarchy
They want true democracy

>>4393112
ahahahahaha pitchforks vs scud missiles
good luck!

>>4393112
Isn't communisms last stage in and of itself anarchy. Seems redundant.

>>4393131
i.e. you don't want to get rid of the rules, you want to change them, which means you are not an anarchist.

>>4393114
then what are you takking about?

>>4393131
>Anarchists don't want anarchy
>They want true democracy
I'm an anarchist and you're a fucking idiot.

>>4393151
The issue that many anarchists take with that is that the so-called transitional stage never seems to actually lead to the "withering away" of the state and class, but rather the creation of a new bureaucratic class.

The other issue that some anarchists take with that is that communists (including some anarcho-communists and anarcho-syndicalists) have a very particular concept of what a "communist future" would look like, which often translates to a more-decentralized and more-democratic version of what already exists. Other anarchists either desire a more total destruction or transformation of society, or feel that prefiguring any sort of future society is a folly at this point.

>>4393149
>implying asymmetrical warfare and insurgencies haven't been the biggest problem for the largest military in the world in the past 50 years

>>4393194
>implying those powers aren't organized in some formal, governmental form
>implying the largest military isn't totally dominating
>thinking Islamists are anarchists
>did you see what the US did to the FARC?
>Oh yeah they weren't anarchists either

>>4393191
>no transitional stage
>no prefiguring the future society
>status quo sucks
i do not think fire is an adequate form of social organization, but i will give you that this is at least coherent

>>4393194
in the past 50 years? USSR isn't that old dude

>>4393206
>Vietnam

Also I wouldn't say that the largest military is really /dominating/ in Iraq and Afghanistan. Winning, possibly. Winning a Pyrrhic victory, more-possibly.

Also the political ideology of those insurgencies doesn't necessarily define the form and tactics of those insurgencies. There is nothing about insurrection that necessitates the existence of a governing body.

>>4393211
Nihilists and other anarchists who reject the prefiguring of a future society typically at least have some ideas for the forms that destroying the present society would take, and in those forms (and their principles) there might be some material for a future.

They mostly diverge in that certain other types of anarchists want to have a detailed blueprint for the exact form and function of some hypothetical anarchist future, which tends to be not much more than a decentralized re-imagining of the present. A dissenter from this way of thinking might say that our imagination of the "anarchist future" is currently limited by our imagination of what is possible in our current society, and settling into any fixed ideas right now would be needlessly limiting if we discover new possibilities.

>>4393247
Vietnam also was not anarchist, and yes it does matter, because there are no anarchist insurgencies anywhere, because you do need a governmental structure, which is why all of these insurgency movements were supported by the USSR, China, or some other government (Taliban, Iran).

>>4393247
To add to what I just said, the US is definitely dominating. Iraq and Afghanistan hurt but not that bad. And note that the US is iut of Iraq now and pulling out of Afghanistan. Those countries are devastated and the US economy is already back in its stride. Vietnam--the US oulled out of one country to protect its hold over most of the rest of the world.

>>4393253
The Spanish Revolution, Makhnovist Ukraine, Paris Commune (19th-century and 20th-century), and modern insurrections in Greece and Chile would disagree with you.

Note also the Arab Spring and the Occupy Movement.

There is no basis for claiming that an insurrection, insurgency, or revolution needs a unified governing body.

>>4393257
The US removing its overt/official military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't say much about its overall victory or achievement of goals, assuming their goal was to create more stable and America-friendly states in that region. The place is still notoriously unstable.

Vietnam caused massive domestic unrest and, regardless of its strategic importance, was a war that the United States lost.

>>4393250
basically what younare saying is that anarchism can mean anything. i can prefigure the anarchist future right now: the people who are rich and powerful now get richer and more powerful.

PS this bit about "decentralizatuon" is exactly what i mean when i say this plays into the GOP's hands and isnothing more than libertarianism + 1. if you want a slightly or even radically dectralized version of what we have now, join the tea party and the white supremacists in advocating for states' rights

>>4393259
Spanish Revolution -- supported by the USSR, Paris Commune -- left wing republicans that even Marx didnt think were anarchists enough. Chile, Greece, and Arab Spring are not anarchist, though some of their members might be. Occupy was a sham and a joke of a protest movement that never got anywhwere.

>>4393271
And most people at Occupy weren't anarchists. Nor were they an insurgency for that matter

>>4393264
You missed my point entirely. The US is still in control, even if it did waste a lot of resources and face some minor setbacks. Capitalism is still wonning big time. Vietnam caused massive domestic unrest ... in Vietnam. In the US... hippies... not successful in the least. Also, North Vietnam had a government during the war fyi. And they were communists, not anarchists

>>4393098

Nonsense. Corporations are a problem, but they are mostly a problem because of the government.

The real class warfare is between those who have access to political power and those who don't. If you take away the capital behind the State but leave the State itself you just switch from being oppressed by a corporate elite to being oppressed by a bureaucratic one.

You need to deal with the gun, not the people wielding it.

wasting time sheltered on 4chan sure is punk as fuck
i know as i do it

>>4393082
this is also a fact

>>4393393
As opposed to productive uses of time, right?

>>4393406
Sorry, was nodding so didn't see the question

I'm not judging, don't get me wrong.

Depends what you see as productive, but constructive is the term I'd rather use.

Depends if what you lean more towards to, nihilism, situationism, anarchism etc? What's the game?
All the things that got a name.

Ah.

>>4393521
I don't lead towards any of them, it's just silly to call browsing 4chan wasting time as if there is a non-wasteful way of spending time.

punk is hate. if you hate the situation, you get it.

I'm not sure how much else there really is to it.

>>4393531
Fair point. I used a value-laden word where I did not intend to and I caused a misunderstanding.

>>4393379
i.e. you are a libertarian. if you can't see that the government is the only thing keeping corporations in line, and barely at that, you need a major reality check. capital is a vast global system that structures world politics. states are local organizations that variously do a better or worse job of protecting local communities. go to sweden and tell people the government is the problem. they will laugh at you. in the US, there is a reason poor and not-so-well educated and marginalized people have a strong tendency to vote for pro-government parties--they understand in theirnday-to-day lives that government is the only thing keeping racial and class prejudices from erupting into massive discrimination and exploitation. you realize that black people vote overwhelmingly for the government (i.e. democrats) and that this has a lot to do with the fact that, for a long time, government bureaucratic jobs were some of the best jobs they could get--the government actually had good non-discrimination policies whereas corrporations did not care. the government is the only force redistributing wealth and countering prejudices and inequalities at any large scale. you don't like bureaucrats, but who is going to take care of food stamps in your anarchist future? no one else ITT is addresing the fact that anarchism, in all of its forms, is right wing extremism. just look at the history of anti-semitism and anarchism.

>>4393758
I can agree with everything but the last sentence, where you seem to define "anarchism" by it's history, or something, I'm not quite sure.
How can you have any-wing extremism in rejection of authority?

>>4393792
it isnt rejection of authority. it is rejection of state authority, which is exactly what the right wing wants--free reign for corps and rich people to do what they want, free reign for cultural and religious authorities to determine hiw resources are allocated.

>>4393803
That excludes individualist anarchism, it seems. Wanting to be ruled by corporations, as oposed to governments, isn't much of an anarchism.

>>4393841
>>4393803

And the target of anarchist bomber was usually a bank or a factory, not a city office.

So if anarchy is what you say it is now, then the stupid fucks are doing it way wrong.

>>4393803
The left wants that too. All negative liberty exists in opposition of the power of the state.

And no, poor people have typically been those most denied property rights. Such as serfs that couldn't engage in trade and squatters that had no land titles. And today in the form of drug dealers, pirates and prostitutes.

>>4389070
>>4388738
>>4388826
I swear a weirdly huge number of people on 4chan know about Pat. Love it.

cocaine and heroin

>>4393851
Me again. I've been in actions with anarchists aimed at banks and foreclosed homes and was glad they were there and glad to talk with them. I just think the anti-state rhetoric feeds into right-wing movements. Same for individualism.

>>4393873
abolishing property rights isn't synonymous with abolishing the state, although it might be necessary to get rid of this particular government we live under

>>4393851
quite a few political assassinations too i think

Politics and capital are so intertwined, I don't see how you can differentiate. It's just different aspects of power. Same shit with socialist states. Politburo might have not been made of millionaires, but they could direct the flow of capital quite freely by state politics, funds, public priorities and shit and that's just the legal means.

>>4394005
European socialism is by far the most impressive means of redistributing capital that we have seen. I'm not saying it's perfect, but there is def a difference between the state and capital and my book. Believe it or not, there are quite a few people in the gov working to level the playing field, especially in Europe. This has measurable results when you look at things like class mobility, extreme poverty, and the like. There's a reason the Tea Party wants to shut the gov down.

PS I would probably agree with you in the US

>>4394025
It's an interesting development of affairs.

>>4393928
he's a pretty 4channish musician

Biafra was a whiny cunt

>>4388550
what did punk rock accomplish outside of the independent music scene?

>>4395687
Bolstered the baseless self importance of all it touched and all future generations exposed to mass media

>>4393928
He gets mentioned on /mu/ pretty often.

>>4395673
>was

he's alive butthead

>>4388550
GG Allin