/lit/ - Literature

>>4361661
I was interested until you mentioned Crash Bandicoot. Seriosly, what the fuck?

>>4361671
I'm curious, why does that turn you off? I think that Crash Bandicoot is a well designed game, one with a lot to draw from. Modern developers could learn much about game design from it.

>>4361682
kids game kids magazine kids 'art' form

>level design in the orignal Spyro series

have you by chance read an article about that? I remember years ago reading a gushing article about its level design and use of colur

>>4361661
>Video games as art.

Give it another 10 years.

It's a discussion which is mostly just people shouting back and forth and neckbeards thinking art means pretty.

If you're doing a piece, just do a critical piece on why video games wont be called art until the babyboomers die.

>>4361671
>Crash Bandicoot
Why not try with something that sound more serious. In my opinion, indie games would make the best material for your project.

>>4361689
Yes, it focused on color theory and architecture (which was Ottoman inspired) but not as much on level design.

>>4361711
No one considered Charlie Chaplin films to be "serious," and yet his influence in film is profound, and there is much to be learned from his movies.

>I'm currently working on creating a journal the intelligent discussion of video games as art, similar to what the Cahiers du Cinema did for film.

That already exists. It's called tumblr.

>>4361711
>indie games
no. That would invalidate his opinion. Indie games are the worst example of art.

Ironically Sony's Journey, Ico, Capcom's Killer 7, Konami's Metal Gear Solid (say what you want, but it's po-mo as fuck.) are good examples, all by major publishers.

>>4361736
Killer 7 is a pretty great example of an Art Video game. Potentially an article on the formalism of the "on rails" gameplay as it relates to the narrative...?

>>4361661
*I want to ruin video games for everyone but retarded neckbeards who are desperate for people to stop considering their favorite hobby childish.

Fixed that for you, faggot. Turning vidya into art is probably the dumbest fucking shit I have ever seen. NONE of those supposed "Art" games are any good. They are too easy, they are boring and padded with shitty 2deep4u stories any retard with half a brain can see is actually increadibly shallow, and are normally over-hyped by bacterial journalism sites who where paid off by the publisher, which is then regurgitated endlessly by the mindless sheep who eat that shit up without caring if it's legitamate or not.

You can fuck right the fuck off.

>>4361661
How about you just can the whole entire thing and stop trying to push an agenda that will ultimately ruin video games if left unchecked?

I have never seen a game lauded as "art" by the gamer community that was ever any good.

games are closer to sports than art. the good ones anyways

How do we feel about Dark Souls?

>>4361682
I am turned off because Crash Bandicoot is an extremely mediocre platformer with weightless controls, and I don't see why anyone would start there to write an essay about the artistic aesthetics of video games.

Don't get me wrong, I fully suport your idea, and actually thought about doing something like that myself (and actually did), because the most important thing to happen to video games has to be an emancipation from other media, but it seems like you only chose the games from your childhood, seeing as you talk about three PS1 games, and thus I question your qualification. But I don't want to brake your elan!

We have these sorts of threads across three or four boards, a small smattering of people seriously interested in the aesthetics (or aesthetic potential?) of video games.

Can't we just start a steam group and get some more regular, productive and cross board discussion going on? I know /lit/ gets funny about these threads and /v/ isn't the best place for obvious reasons!

I respect your attempt to bring forward a new medium for artistic expression, OP, but I think you're looking for meaning where there's none.

>>4362106
But I don't want to embarrass myself. I barely ever use steam, don't have a gaming pc, and have only like four games or so in my steam library. What if people don't take me seriously? ;_;

>>4362077
This guy knows. I came to this thread to say the same thing. Dark souls is the only game I consider even remotely artistic.

>>4362181
Why do you consider this game artistic, but not stuff like Ico or Majora's Mask?

>>4362221
I don't know about Ico, but Majora's Mask is just pretty sights and music, a sense of adventure, and a creative plot. That makes for an excellent video game, but not art.
Dark Souls is...art. The difficulty, confusion, extensive lore, combat, all of it come together to make something that is unlike other games.
I can't really explain it, but I've always trusted my instincts when it comes to art rather than being able to identify specific artistic aspects. Kinda like that judge who said he knows it when he sees it talking about porn, but with art instead.

When people play video games they get addicted. This is because it is the games mechanics to reward the players. Video games contain art, but calling the medium an art form is like calling a slot machine or the game poker art.

I'm currently developing an experimental rpgmaker game where I'm making the game mechanics hostile toward the player. I'm at work but I can post pics if anyone is interested after work.

>>4362255
I am interested.

>>4362245
>but Majora's Mask is just pretty sights and music, a sense of adventure, and a creative plot. That makes for an excellent video game, but not art.
But that is wrong. Majora's Mask is more than that. It is stress. It is fear of the inevitable. Every part of the game plays into this theme. And it is all of this, conveyed mostly by gameplay, not just non-interactive narrative.

Dark Souls is pretty much an NES game in 3D with somewhat deeper combat and a dash of Metroid Prime. I am not saying that it is not a very well-made game, but it is not as unique as you make it out to be.

I mean, how does the combat come together with the lore anyway?

>>4362255
While I disagree with your former paragraph, I am interested in the latter.

>>4362255
I'm interested.

>>4361661
Why not Doom (1 or 2)? Very good level design.

>>4362281
I'd love for you to write about it. Send me an essay.

>>4362255
>I'm currently developing an experimental rpgmaker game where I'm making the game mechanics hostile toward the player

So a game that becomes less fun the better you are at it?

>>4362662
And i guess you decide what art is?

>games are art MAAAAAAAN
This is why terrible games like Gone Home are winning awards left and right despite them not actually being games.

>>4362054
The trick would be to avoid games that obviously attempt to be 'art' as defined by the standards of other media. I think that's what OP's going for with
>The purpose of the project is to devolop a common vocabulary for discussing formal elements in video games, and for arguments to be made as to what defines a good game

>>4362665
That's not even what I was saying. I was more illustrating that people who want games to be recognized as art are trying so hard to make it so that they end up with a product that can't even be considered a game.

>>4362677
...by which I mean, right now anything that looks vaguely 'arty', in that it somehow resembles literature, movies, or painting, tends to be classed as a candidate for being 'art'. But what vidya really needs is its own criteria.

>>4362691
OP here, you hit the nail on the head. That's why I'm choosing games like Crash Bandicoot, Pikmin, and LSD, not Alan Wake.

>>4362662
Believe me, I hate these games just as much as you do. I'm reacting against

>>4362054
the first Bioshock was decent

This game! Oh boy, this game is a fucking work of art! Never have I played a game as dark and soul crushing as this. I'm not even joking, MDickie is an auteur. Are there any other games that do not glorify violence and makes a point out of it? I'm working on an essay about the topic.

>>4362732
You should play Spec Ops: The Line bro, it hit me really hard because I'm an autist who has never read a book in my whole life

is this art?

>>4362732
>MDickie
Is that the guy who made Sexy Hiking or am I confusing something here?

>>4362139
Still, it would be the best way to facilitate proper and easier collaboration, discussion and organize contributions.

Just sayin' - I'd be down for it.

How does one even go about creating a journal, anyway?

>>4363194
OP here, someone on /vr/ suggested a blog. I was also thinking about an irc. Thoughts?

>>4361692
There are plenty of individual games that are definitely art, but I agree that for the medium as a whole to be considered art, we're not quite there yet.

>>4363297
By all means set it up, that sounds great!

>>4363319
Having said that, literature, film etc as mediums in general really aren't art other than in the sense that they are works of creative output. It's only a minority of quality examples that qualify as art in a strictly positive sense.

. Just finished 1000 words of my LSD essay, I'll probably circulate the first draft around here. Got a few emails from interested writers, I'm excited about the direction this is taking. If anyone else wants to participate, just send me an email and get writing.

>>4362717
I never said it wasn't. I actually loved the shit out of it, Infinite was awful though, yeah.

>>4363807
well you said any game lauded as "art" is shit and Bioshock is often one of the first examples people bring up when defending the idea of video games being art

>>4362266
>>4362273
>>4362281

Here's a screenshot.

I'll spend some money to advertise on 4chan once I'm done with the game, probably on /v/.

>>4362645
>>4362645
No, I haven't thought of that idea, but i think it would encourage people to play shitty. I'm trying to take the addictive element out of the game to give a message to the detached people that play games that try to justify their indulgence.

It's halfway inspired by yume nikki, and while i believe that game redefines what a game could be, it still rewards the player's exploration. I'm making my game so that no matter what the player does, no matter what switch he/she throws, anything that comes as a result could not be perceived as a reward, no matter what kind of person they are.

That game play mechanic itself is going to be my message and my form of expression, but it also will have text and music and shit, in fact its already getting pretty convoluted.

>>4363884
OP here, you're the hero gaming needs. If this turns out half as good as it looks on paper, this will be "Les quatre cents coups" of video games.

how bout katamari? we all love katamari, specifically the first

>>4363924
i've never played katamari

>>4364241
you should play katamari solely for the theme song.

... seriously? No Shadow of the Colossus yet? Not even a mention?

>>4364313
Someone mentioned Ico before. But youre right, it should be mentioned.

Maybe just making a list of games that its in the ballpark of what should be studied would be good. Im sure there will be debate here and there, but if we just have a vague criteria of "huh, this could have something", well probably hit all the marks

>>4364313
It's too good to be talked about.

>>4363884
>>4363884
What message are you trying to give?

>>4364328
>Maybe just making a list of games that its in the ballpark of what should be studied would be good.
Well, Shadow of the Collossus, Ico, Majora's Mask, Journey, Metroid Fusion, Planescape Torment, Bioshock, Systemshock (?) and maybe Spec Ops: The Line are games that come to my mind that have elements in them that utilize aspects unique to video games to convey or to create something.
Maybe put Dwarf Fortress in there aswell.

OP is right when he says that we need specific term for vidya. That anon (hard to quote on my phone) is right when he says that arty games are not prime exemple of how a video game can be art. Ico just shows that video games can be paintings (it's simplistic but well...) for exemple.

Dark Souls is beautiful not only because of the artistic direction, but because it creates an atmosphere, in a very broad sence. The gameplay and the lore, the level design and the balance. They create something unique, a direction towards a man made sublime. That's art.

Video games can be considered aesthetically good in three main ways:

The first is by possessing things that are independently aesthetically good. Talking about things like "that song was beautiful," or "that vista visible after level four is sublime."
This isn't all too interesting to OPs project, since it is already pretty wrapped up in schools of aesthetic thought - they've got it covered!

The second way is in terms of pure gameplay. This is slightly more interesting, but I'm unsure how propositional the beliefs can be. Even unsure of how you'd go about issuing praise in anything other than the trivial sense - "this game is fun," "the difficulty curve is just right," and so on. I guess this is part of what OP is trying to achieve perhaps?

But the bit that interests me the most is the third way, in terms of how gameplay interacts with themes and story. Specific gameplay mechanics can be used to illustrate certain aspects of story and themes. For example, in DEFCON the absolute trivial ease of launching a nuke is meant to absolutely distance the player from the moral consequence of it. Or in Papers, Please - a conflict is created between what the player might want to do (let someone pass the border who has medicine for their grandpa or something,) and what the player ought to do in terms of the game.

The third way of talking provides a model in which we can acknowledge that any type of game has potential to develop aesthetic worth, but explain why we only want to form propositional and specific analysis and beliefs about some of them.

It amazes me that no one mentioned "The Dark Eye" (1995) (not the german RPG one)

A game with a whole lot more "literature" than any other (except, maybe, modern IF), featuring William Burroughs reading the short story the level was based on after you finish it.

Another one is "The Last Express" (1997), that in my opinion for the sole reason of being a [good] game transcends the murder mystery genre. Not to mention that few movies managed to create a orient express so alive, or even reproduce the pre-ww1 tension so vividly.

Also Harlan Ellison's "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" (1995) may be interesting to check out, although I don't see it as a game that rises above the others of it's time in artistic merit, besides having a strong plot.

>>4365002

>OP is right when he says that we need specific term for vidya

Agreed. I'd suggest calling it Multimedia Game or something to that affect. Or perhaps simply 'Multimedia'.

Honestly, calling video-games 'video-games' at this point is too much like calling American movies 'Hollywood'. The term has become too conflated with the entertainment industry and it's going to need a huge shift to change that. I would like to believe that an online journal could do it but I doubt it because I'm hugely pessimistic of anything on the Internet changing things very much. It always suggests so before amounting to little.

>>4362709

>Believe me, I hate these games just as much as you do.

Why? Gone Home isn't a bad game at all. It's my theory that the very act of exploration is its virtue and this means that it is not elevated above many games but instead that it is allowed as part of an important style of game which we have seen in the past and will continue to see more of. It's story is not literary but then again you can't deny that certain people who do nothing but play games may have found it enlightening even if you think that's stupid.

If you're OP then I don't know if you're even such a good source any more for this thing. You've cited some pretty inane games in your intro to champion - although I understand why you think those things are important - and then proceed to dismiss games which have worth in areas you might not have considered.

Reacting against something is only going to make sense if you have goals.

Some advice - Ignore /v/. Take them out of the equation altogether and forget they exist. Reacting against or for their goals is inane because they don't spend time critically reading games in the way that is necessary to take anything from their opinions. Everything they do or say is a surface-level approximation and rarely interesting even if valid.

>>4365124

On reflection, if you want to do something then ignore the way video-games are written about in general both by fans and journalists. Getting some passionate people involved will make this work but not if they're caught in a stranglehold of thinking it's important that they write in a certain way to get recognised. That's exactly why written things tend to suck.

Go against the status quo.

>>4361661
>>4361661
I just searched some things, maybe these will interest you:

Gaming: Essays on Algorithmic Culture
http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy0710/2006003428-d.html

Playing video games: Motives, Responses, and Consequences
http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy0623/2005029416-d.html

The medium of the video game
http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/description/texas041/2001037625.html

The Video Game Theory Reader
http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy0651/2003001764-d.html

http://www.half-real.net/

Screenplay: Cinema/Videogames/Interfaces
http://books.google.de/books/about/Screenplay.html?id=qruZ2UOp_WAC&redir_esc=y

Mind at Play: The Psychology of video games
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249344.Mind_at_Play

>>4365132
Excepting LSD, I don't think Crash Bandicoot or Spyro are of any incredible artistic merit. I simply think that they performed some formal elements that are important to video games (i.e, level design and art direction) exceptionally well. In those articles, my goal is to show what they did and why it worked, provide a vocabulary for discussing what they did, and show how it could be emulated in future games. Crash and Spyro, though amazing games and monumental achievements in the industry, are not spectacular in any aesthetic sense. Copying from one of my posts on /vr/ here, but this might give you a better sense of my tastes and philosophy:

>Of the most artistic merit, I'd say LSD, Killer7, Pathologic, the original Pikmin, Metal Gear Solid, Chrono Cross, Eternal Darkness, Hotel Dusk, Silent Hill, Shadow of the Colossus, Yume Nikki, and The Endless Forest.

>These are, of course, opinions, based entirely off games I have played. I'm no expert.

>>4365181
Excellent, I'll get reading on those tonight.

>>4365132

I would tend to agree, and would avoid most of the obscure "critical" gaming blogs out there as well. I keep up with Critical Distance when I have time because there are occasionally phenomenal articles, but pretty much anyone who involves themselves in arguments about ludonarrative dissonance has their head up their ass.

I don't say this to imply that a critical view of games is wrong, but more that it seems like many bloggers write on videogames out of a frustration with their inability to apply their critical background with their original topic (many bloggers admit backgrounds with minor academics in literary or film criticism, despite the fact that they work in unrelated fields). Most of the discussion devolves into a pissing contest where each side attempts to sound as casually intelligent as possible, while accusing everyone else of being pretentious.

>>4365658
That's exactly why I think a new vocabulary is needed -- it's impossible to write about video games using our current lexicon, which is designed for literature and film.

Are you aware of what serious video game criticism there already is? There are already people who do this sort of thing, albeit few.

Not that I think it's a bad idea, I think it's a fantastic idea, but don't go into this thinking that you have to pioneer a new language of game criticism single-handedly.

This is something I wish I could do, but I've never written seriously before. As for a title, I think "A Language of Dreams" in reference to this ad might work.

>>4365658

My main issue with writers is that they typically separate themes and form for convenience. I don't see how that's possible when user-interaction is a necessary part of any game experience. It's the root of the experience from which the story derives and as such the experience should always be remarked upon with equal measure for what is apparently being represented on-screen.

I can't write about the technical side of video-games very well and would leave that to more experienced/specialised people but I do find the pre-occupation with film and literature-style readings very strange indeed.

>>4365409
Level design and gameplay ARE what SHOULD give game artistic merit
No one judges music on the 'plot' of the lyrics
Different standards for different mediums
Its people like you that cause modern videogame devs to focus on their awful storytelling abilities instead of what makes video games video games.
And i think talking about aesthetics only goes so far when its an interactive medium we are discussing, you dont get the whole picture

>>4365056
I'm not sure I see the distinction between the second and third ways you mention. I think any gameplay that can be considered "beautiful" creates a narrative when played whether explicitly tied to the game's "story" or not. Example: Geometry Wars explicitly avoids any real plot in the tradition of classic shmups, yet the frenetic experience of blasting antagonistic glowing shapes into space-dust has as much emotional weight as it would if we were spoon-fed a cookie-cutter alien-invasion plot.

Has anyone here read Extra Lives by Tom Bissell? I think it provides an interesting perspective on the role of plot in games.

>videogames
>art

>>4365732
>videogames
>art

u fkn wnker m8 ill hook u in the gaber m8 i sware on me mam

Thank Christ nobody takes any cultural commentator who believes videogames are art seriously...

Could you imagine a cultural future where the academic circle actually did this?

>>4365741
Yeah, I can imagine that future. Seems basically a creeping and wholly positive inevitability at this point.

>>4365730
I think I over-hyphenated there

>>4365722
I have no idea where this thinking comes from. If you honestly believe that lyrics in a song don't matter, you should stop offering your opinion. EVERYTHING in a game matters. If all that mattered was level design and gameplay, then couldn't a game be just as good with all-white models and no music or sound-effects? Wouldn't you have so much fun playing Chrono Trigger with all the locations replaced by "Location #1," "Location #2," and the enemies with "Enemy #2a" "Enemy #2b," and the sprites colored blocks of various shades and dimensions?

>>4362281
Not that I think it's a bad idea, but there's quite a lot of writing on Doom's level design, especially by people who design levels professionally.

>>4365722

>Its people like you that cause modern videogame devs to focus on their awful storytelling abilities instead of what makes video games video games.

If developers think story-telling = cinematics and conventions of film or books then that's because they're dumb motherfucking motherfuckers. OP issued a plee towards games like LSD and Yume Nikki in which the story is the experience of the game isn't pertaining to the logical rules from the developers.

How can aesthetics not be tangentially reflected in the experience as the developing story is as a collective whole?

>>4365722
I don't know why you're yelling at me, I agree with you. While narrative isn't irrelevant, I would say that gameplay is more important. That's exactly why I chose games like LSD, Yume Nikki, The Endless Forest, Pikmin, etc.

>>4365768

>OP issued a plee towards games like LSD and Yume Nikki in which the story is the experience of the game isn't pertaining to the logical rules from the developers.

Phrased poorly.

I meant to imply that the experience should cohere to the rules of development (i.e. the code which is put in-place)

On that subject, I don't think games should be strictly designed as an on-rails experience. The developers of games should let go to an extent. The games with poor stories are usually those with no regard for the idea of user-interaction and the manner in which the player will ultimately do something in the game that they you as a developer don't wish for them to do. It's a balancing-act.

>>4365785
That's why LSD is so great, the "escalation" (what I'm currently writing my article on) is structured so that the player can literally do whatever the fuck he wants and still advance the gameplay in a way that is emotionally captivating. You can literally just jump in holes or wander around until day 10 and the game will still manage to defamiliarize everything in the game that you find familiar. It's fucking unsettling when you play it.

>>4361661
In regards to art direction and color theory,The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask and Te Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker would be excellent choices. Both are polar opposites in art and color, but these creative decisions compliment each game perfectly in regards to overall mood and story.

>>4365813
I can recommend the MatthewMatosis reviews on these games.

>>4365807

I would be interested in reading that essay when it's done.

>>4365745

>>4366234
Care to explain why you think so?

>>4366363
No because I'm getting tired of arguing. I'd rather just insult you with reaction images if that's OK?

>>4366386
Yeah, keep at it. You don't mind if I assume you haven't thought through your position at all in the meantime though?

Video games are an 'artform' in a sense but the means by which people often try to interpret them are banal and often irrelevant. Here, ascetics and narrative are the key culprits, mostly due to the already established modes of criticism in literature and cinema. While games necessarily work within these paradigms they are not primarily the means by which we experience a game. Rather, a game is interesting because it presents a 'reality' into which the player is meant to become immersed. Games like GTA are (currently) the most interesting in this regard because they are not only the most successful in creating a separate reality but also because there is an obvious critical relation to our own reality.

>>4366390
I've thought it through, just not to any great, intellectual length. I mean, I have the foundation of it and a few pretty solid points I think but no, it's not really come along to any profound kind of conclusion.

>>4366427
Gotcha. Well if you do come to any real conclusion as to why such a future ought not to exist - I'd be interested to hear it.

>>4366422
Try Dwarf Fortress.

>>4366442

I think you just proved my point.

i dont know if you're still here op, but this game is the closest thing to art in games i think

>>4363846
Looks like I contradicted myself there. I'm talking more about games like Gone Home and The last of Us really.

I've held the opinion that Dark Souls had the best story of the last generation over all of the so-called, "narrative driven" rpgs we've had.

OPs idea of art might be to broad to warrant a proper intelligent discussion for his journal. Artistic Expression in video games may vary from design, art direction, and presentation, but very few games are geared to be the entire art itself.

I found that a good example of a game that wants to be the artistic expression itself is El Shaddai, even if the game finds itself to be mediocre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Mqkq8WVwc

A good example of art in games is found in plenty of the games people in this thread mentioned. But many confuse between what is graphically good and what is stylistically good which many times are not the same thing.

OP IMO...Video games as Art is not the same as Art in video games, and you should make that clear before asking.

-pic unrelated

>>4362255
this this this

>>4366572
>But many confuse between what is graphically good and what is stylistically good which many times are not the same thing.
Did anyone do that in this thread?

>>4366572
Of all the games to pick as a clear example of "art," why would you pick El Shaddai? It's visually stunning, but the gameplay was almost cookie-cutter.

But Game Studies already exists.

>>4367583
Game Studies is exactly what I'm reacting against, the entire "field" is plagued with critical theory. Like anyone actually gives a fuck about logocentrism in Runescape. It's garble for grad students. That's why I'm trying to give video games their own vocabulary, to let them be "art" on their own terms.

>>4361684

It may seem like it's done for a kids game by assholes but in the end you have to realize this an actual person who is probably seriously inclined to art no matter what. And considering it's the chinks we're talking about this guys got some autistic level dedication to making ever single fucking sprite his new magnum opus it's not impossible or even unlikely that for what it represents in one of it's facets is a defining work of a whole era of gaming. I mean some game has to be it right? Why not crash bandicoot? (sending a hearty fucking laugh to the auto correct trying diligently to change that to "crash banditry")

http://technosyncreticarts.tumblr.com/ask

Posts coming soon. Pretty basic for now, but it's there.

Any progress on an IRC or anything? I feel like this is such a fledgling field any attempt to write a paper would seriously benefit from discussion and informal peer review.

>>4362104
not op but one thing about naughty dog and insomniac in general is that they definitely have their own aesthetic, with music and enemies level designs and everything it all seems to go together, just throwing my two cents in

>>4365083
props to you sir, never heard anyone talk about the dark eye, the retelling of amontillado from the victims perspective and the entirety of the telltale heart were my jimmy jams

>>4369595
Naughty Dog, atleast in the Uncharted series, is a glarring example of presentation over gameplay. It is basically the opposite of what I want vidya to turn into. Haven't played TLoU yet.

>>4362687
Gone Home is a game

How do you reconcile Populous, Civilization, and Mario with PS:T, The Last Express, and Braid as having potentially equal merit to video games as an art form?

Also add Cosmology of Kyoto to the list, it's apparently the only game Roger Ebert actually liked.

DID ANYONE MENTION ICY CALM IN THIS THREAD YET

>>4369630
>How do you reconcile Populous, Civilization, and Mario with PS:T, The Last Express, and Braid as having potentially equal merit to video games as an art form?

This is easily reconciled: they're all art.

There is no such thing as some art having more "merit" than another. This is tantamount to the age-old -- and hilariously-poor -- thinking of:

If I like it, it's art.
If I don't like it, it's non-art.

Frog Fractions.
It took all the usual rules and decided it wasn't going to use them:
No instructions.
Horrible interface with meaningless feedback.
Hard to discover rules that changed arbitrarily.
Yet it was still compelling.

I also don't think it's wise for games to lick the boot heels of the liberal Jewish establishment.

>>4370628
This

I personally believe that Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, and Final Fantasy VI can be considered as art.

>>4362054
going by OP's post it seems like he's trying to focus on games that aren't lauded as art by the gamer community

>>4371730
I'm glad you exist. Those are essentially my favorite games, and I totally agree.

That fucking soundtrack on FF VI though, I swear It deserves far more recognition than it does for making such beautiful soundscapes with such limited technology.

>>4369655
Pretty good writer, crazy hyper-egotistical faggot. Can't say I agree with much of what he says.

A hypothetical legitimate games-as-art journal might still benefit from his presence, though.

>>4371784
True, G., True.

Lots of people don't give games the art world repext they deserve.

I mean a picture is art if you hang it on a wall, and words are literature if you put it on a book.

but what about words and pictures and music in games? Games get no respect at all.

>>4371730
>>4371784
While I too like these games, ask yourselves: do you consider them to have any artistic merit? As video games, I mean, and not just because there is beautiful music there.
Though this is kinda a tough question. How much does the music add to the game as a game? I think the one thing that is so hard to put one's finger on in games is what we call "atmosphere", and music certainly is an important part of that. And the specific atmosphere in a video game can only be there in a video game, it would not work in a movie, for example. So maybe music is part of a video game as a video game, and not just as music.

>>4362255
>>4362255
Making the game fucking hard will just be considered a challenge by people who have spent too much time playing games and want that new hit of adrenaline. Everyone else will say it's frustrating.

You can simply make something that is unforgiving in a different sense in that the environment is extremely depressing and/or fucked up.

I would argue that games like Silent Hill 2 and Amnesia are hard and fucked up but not really intended to be addictive. They give a unique and thrilling experience that only really works once, with no intention of stealing your lunch money like so many F2P micro-transaction models.

You will still have a niche audience of jaded veterans but you can start to say you are inspired by David Lynch etc. rather than by the financial success of previous first person shooters.

You can finally say you are not trying to steal coins by means of an addictive pleasure button.

>>4371823

But what if a book was read over the radio?

would it be considered as "music" ?

>>4371853
If the book was concipated with that music in mind, sure. It would be a gesamtkunstwerk.

>>4363884
>encourage people to play shitty
honestly I'd like to see this happen, just to know how players would get "good". What techniques would develop for playing? Would anyone give it more than a moments notice?

>>4362255
>>4363884
No no dude, wait, they'll just go "haha what a broken ass game" and then put it away.

Instead, use psychological violence.

You play as a badass spehs mahreen for a moment but then suddenly remember that you're actually a sickly neckbeard at a keyboard. You are forced to crawl out of the basement because you ran out of snacks. Your parents don't even hate you, they pity you, and every encounter with them is awkward. They're clearly ashamed of you.

You have a brother who drops by from time to time, has a well-paying job, a nice car and a nice girlfriend. He works out and has excellent social skills.

Why don't you have a girlfriend yet bro?

>>4371925
>Why don't you have a girlfriend yet bro?
Shut up, it is really complicated.

>>4371870

Ok, so thus if a video game has even one word in it...then it is literature.

or verdenlexiconegesheissenwerk as the germans refer to it.

>>4372315
Why not? We study good screenplays/theatre scripts as literature, separating them from their original context.

>>4372339

More like Why Yes? That's my point.

Vidya is Lit. I'm on your side, g-unit.

>>4372315
>Ok, so thus if a video game has even one word in it...then it is literature.
Yes? Words describing fictional events are literature. However people can argue about if it is good or bad literature.

>>4372397

is a radio a pizza if you put cheese on it?

is grenadine an alcohol just because it comes in a liquor bottle yet has no actually alcohol in it?

absurd.

hozers debatin' art In this thread

>>4372406
No, because pizza is clearly defined as something to eat, a radio isn't.

Pieces of art however can interact, or can be conceived to fit together - like music in a video game, or artfully crafted backdrop in a theater play.

Do you not know what a gesamtkunstwerk is?

>>4372422
>gesamtkunstwerk

is it the thing i took out of your mom's ass/butt last night?

>>4372397
>Words describing fictional events are literature
so clueless

a vcr instruction manual is literature. it's just more practical literature than entertaining literature.

>>4372565

is a vcr a pizza if you put cheese on it?

>>4361692
videogames have been acknowledged as art for *at least* ten years. lrn 2 database search for peer reviewed articles.

>>4362057
explain this bullshit. protip: you can't.

>>4372593
Video gaming: an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.

>>4372565
Go to bed, Robert M. Pirsig.

>>4372649
Video gaming: a group of sense-data experiences designed to be appreciated.

See? I can make up restrictive definitions which don't give the whole picture too!

>>4372712
>>4372649

Video Games are Video Games.

>>4372526
>Look at me! I am being smug!
Yes, anon, it's okay.

>>4371813
Actually his writing style is embarrassingly bad

>>4372593
Sports is art, pretty srue I've already explained this

>>4368707

>I want to create an intellectual field of thought in video games

>Chinks

Okay yeah thanks, the smartest guy about videogames is a racist dipshit

You realize that Anita Sarkeesian will own the discussion as long as you're saying shit like that right

>>4374906
Own what discussion, and why should I care? You're the first to mention her ITT. Clearly you're the one with a problem. Go back to /v/ if you want to complain about that shit

>the smartest guy about videogames is a racist

Haha, anyway, this is secretly true

the only game /lit/ would probably enjoy is Journey

>>4374923
Nah, /lit/ would love Planescape Torment.

>>4372719

Are you also the guy who grunts "Books r just books"

and "it's just a fucking movie!"

and "it's just a bunch of particles!"

?

>>4374927
I'm so tired of people who play video games talking about how amazing this story is. It's a ridiculous fantasy plot with really mediocre philosophizing.

>>4374972
Seriously, the only reason I even enjoyed it is because I think Planescape universe is kind of neat.....would play more games that take place there.

Pretty sure Amy Hennig is supposed to be the best writer in video games, even though I'm not familiar with any of her work

>>4374913


>I am a racist and I admit to it

cool. great.

Art is art even if it's shitty or commercialized or "low-brow"
If people stopped putting it on a pedestal, we'd have less pretentious, useless works.

>>4371730
>Earthbound
I don't like gaming very much, but this one is just fantastic

Have you worked on anything regarding Deus Ex? Possibly the game with the greatest story of all time - reading the plot online doesn't do it justice to the great complexities.

>>4373949
i dont recall that you did

OP, have you ever seen Extra Credits?
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDEgXUqHL9Q

Because this whole thing sounds like James Portnow's kinda passion. Send him an email, I'm sure he'd be interested.

>>4375937
>Extra Credit
Ugh. Really? They just spew very obvious stuff about vidya design, defend pay2win and get praised for it from the, forgive the buzzword, reddit audience.

Also this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw

>>4374928

No I'm the guy who brought back monday to tell tuesday not to let wedsnday put thursday in the hospital or burn friday on saturday.

I'm a guy who plays video games on sundays

if i jerk off to video games on pause...does that make video games more porno than lit?

bump

>>4375937
>>4376149

I used to like Extra Credits until I found out they're only interested in feeding the rhetoric apparent in gaming culture atm. it's seems that they still haven't snapped out of the "Art=Entertainment" dogma that vidya enthusiasts maintain.

Watch this video, it's Indicative of exactly why I don't like them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blj91KLOvZQ

>"we want games to be treated as a real art form!"
>"but we're not open to discourse on what a game actually is so let's ignore the question!"

>>4361661
cactus games

>>4361661
Have you guy heard of Errant Signal?
http://www.youtube.com/user/Campster
What he's doing is similar to what you're talking about; not only does he do some fairly thorough analyzations, but he's developing a vocabulary unique to video games

Sorry, video games are not art. This is art.

>>4379889
>implying it isn't

>>4379894
>implying irony

>>4379871
Not the OP, but thanks for the recommendation. Just watched his Bioshock Infinite review, since this is a make-or-break for me when it comes to youtube reviewers. This guy passed the test with flying colours.

>>4379871
https://www.youtube.com/user/Matthewmatosis
is also a very good reviewer who is in the same vein

>>4379889
That painting is not art.

>>4380809
I used to think he's a very good reviewer until he reviewed Ico and found out he doesn't really get it. So now he's only a good reviewer to me.

>>4380822
What doesn't he get about Ico? I watched the video, and he himself said that it wasn't supposed to be a review.

>>4380872
>he himself said that it wasn't supposed to be a review.

Well, I don't think he was very successful at not making it one then. Does it feel different from any other of his videos?

>What doesn't he get about Ico?
The only way to review Ico is to write a love letter to it.

>>4380908
>Does it feel different from any other of his videos?
It has a very different structure, and he just kinda talks about it, rather than analysing it.

>The only way to review Ico is to write a love letter to it.
But that wouldn't be a review, that would be a love letter. Come the fuck on, I love Ico like everyone does, but try to be a little more objective.

>>4380927
>But that wouldn't be a review, that would be a love letter.
Nonono, see you don't get it either.

>>4380822
>>4380908

>judging reviewers by how much they agree with your tastes
>having well informed taste

pick one

>>4380940
Anon, this is getting old, and it is only the second time you do it.

>>4380948
If you utter a word I will give you thirty blows; if you utter not a word, just the same, thirty blows
on your head.

Bump.

>>4361736
Why the hate for indie games?
I get the vibe of a lot of them just being the developers sucking their own respective pseudo-artistic dicks and writing it off as a 2deep4u masterpiece, but I've played some really nice indie games that I think do qualify as art, on some level.