/lit/ - Literature

Enhancing the pleasure of hedonistic pursuits by forced deprivation (T-breaks, no-fap, etc.) — not exactly a higher purpose

>>4295997

if it accords with your nature, then pursue it.

>>4295997
Not necessarily for the hell of it, but the Cynics viewed the rough and simple feral life as it's own reward and a superior way to live.

>>4296010
>your nature

denying your nature is the first step towards self discipline and civilization

>>4296010
>>4296020
>strange dualisms about natures as some essence to be either conformed to or denied

Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea!

>>4296007
But wouldn't the most abstemious man be beyond that?

>>4296046
He'd just get his pleasure somewhere else, such as the idea of how abstemious he is.

>>4296013

Cynics had a bit of a different asceticism though. They certainly didn't try to deny any natural impulses.

>>4296049
Clearly pleasures are unavoidable on Earth though. Everyone experiences them. Can't one strive for asceticism as much as they can, even in a world of aesthetics? Won't it only help them develop a mind that avoids distractions from what's truly important?

>>4296058
Well, not according to their definition of nature. Of course all the behaviour they denied is natural as well since the difference between natural and unnatural behaviour is completely arbitrary.

But yes, their asceticism was more about being sturdy than being pure. But this is the type of asceticism that can be said to have inherent merit, I think. Life denying asceticism for the hell of it is merely self-destruction.

>>4296077
I was implying bad faith. The ascetic pursues a different type of pleasure, part of which is the pleasure of the denial of being a pleasure seeker. Like a vegan compensates the lack of tasty steak with the for them more pleasurable smugness that comes with the moral high ground. If anything, ascetics are pleasure fiends of a deranged variety, not more pure being.

>>4296099
Ah, I see. I'm not 100% with you on that, but I get your reasoning. So would you say there are those who are genuine and in good faith?

>>4296046
>But wouldn't the most abstemious man be beyond that?
but in the OP we weren't talking about the most abstemious man. we were talking about someone that practices austerity for some periods of time

>>4296129
Hmm... guess you're right.

I would say on that question that one must live the lifestyle to the fullest they can at all times, and not have some wishy-washy "I can do good when I need to" attitude.

>>4296106
I'd consider them self-deceiving life deniers who embody a will to nothingness, but I think they can be so while genuinely believing they're doing something benevolent.

Note that I mean the sort of 'kill the passions' religiosity, not "if I learn to live without stuff I can do whatever I want!" sort of jolly Cynicism.

>>4296034
I see no wheels in the head of the first anon

>>4296146
>a will to nothingness

Not sure how I feel about that phrasing. I think the people you are describing certainly exist but I also feel there are people who live that life not to "kill the passions," but for what they see as the true "meaning," for lack of a better term, which they believe must be reached by cutting off distractions.

>>4296160
It implies the possibility to pursue things not in accordance with ones nature and thereby a dualism between oneself and one's nature.

>>4296174
Thereby sacrificing life itself for a conceptual fabrication, which comes down to a will to nothingness, however unconsciously.

The epicurean happiness and freedom that comes from removing material possessions and desires as a source of anxiety and regret is a pretty good reason

>>4296183
>sacrificing life itself
Sacrificing the material life but judging by
>conceptual fabrication
I'm assuming you don't think there is anything beyond that. Which is a different argument all together.

>>4296199
I don't. But if there were something beyond that, asceticism in this life would be no more noble, good and lofty than studying hard so that you may get a good job after college.

>>4296208
Curious as to why you say that.

>>4296143
unless the thing is not about goodness. for example, austerity could b practiced "from time to time" to be prepared in case austerity is actually needed. in that sense you're prepared to live a more ample life (should the circumstance arise you would be more prepared to survive on austerity)

>>4296219
Isn't it obvious? If there are rewards to asceticism it becomes the conventional 'do your best now and reap the rewards later' approach.

>>4296247
I think the argument would be that a genuine ascetic person, in a world with ascetic meaning, would receive something more than material reward.

A lot of it comes down to faith really.

>>4296258
Non-material rewards are still rewards. If doing what God wants you to do would make you go to hell, then maybe we would see genuine ascetics.

>>4296208
But asceticism delivers rewards that a far superior and stable.

>>4296298
We already live on a sort of hell. We already experience suffering. It is a matter of striving through that and doing good, so that one is beneficial to his spirit and others'. Asceticism may be selfish in one way, but it is the least selfish way, so long as it is coupled with works of good will.

Of course you do not believe that, which I can respect, as long as you do not use that as reason for apathy to morality (whether or not it exists),

So, what's the idea?

Most of these posts take the notion of a self which the Buddha said would lead to suffering at one point. Obviously, cynicism is enough lamenting for the whole thread. What say?

>>4295997
>Does asceticism require a higher purpose
Can't most anything be done with a set Mind?

>>4296507
at least?*

>>4295997
I strive for self sacrifice in excersize and study, and abstinence from things like internet and unhealthy foods so I can live a generally more hedonistic and spiritually fufilled life.
I'd consider the average ascetic much more hedonistic than the average fat person, in terms of how much they've fufilled their will to power and the appreciation of life they have

the very fact that it requires conscious willpower and is difficult demands that there be purpose and conscious effort involved

the hedonist, by contrast, is a glibe rationalizing and self-congratulatory pig

>>4296325
>We already live on a sort of hell.
I think it's this very attitude to life that leads to a will to nothingness. Some people are weary of life, they still only want the soft parts. Life tires them, and in their exhaustion they look for a safe haven. This is what asceticism is. The least possible amount of life without ending it. Their heaven is a gentle place, perhaps not even a place, a beautific vision. Ascetics are also firmly in the habit of valuing concepts over people and are thereby if not selfish, then at least idealist and not altruist. The ascetic serves himself by denying himself. His great pleasure is in this fleeing, in finding rest from those impulses that torment him. Even apart from any spiritual reward, asceticism constitutes the damage control of the decadent. The very idea of life as hell goes to show a certain, well, mental illness. It's life getting the better of itself.

>>4297186
beautifully written well done.

>>4297186
Ok little Nietzsche.

*twirls mustache*

>>4296007
>no-fap
>implying Diogenes didn't masturbate in public
I think people forget what it is to be ascetic

>>4297228
if diogenes fapped and wasted his cum then he was a fool.

it's doubtful that diogenes was living on a nutritionally balanced diet. losing cum too often is a devastating loss for the nervous system and brain when the diet is poor.

>>4297234
I heard he was a cannibal. Pic related.

>>4297234
>waste cum
>as opposed to not waste
>implying utilitarian cum management for the greater ought

Teleology, not even once.

>>4297226
*tips hunchback*

>>4297247
i eat my cum every time and suffer none of the usual post-fap malaise

>>4297288
>implying nutritional intake from eaten cum is 100%

>>4297293
shut the fuck up you contrarian little faggot. i'm telling you very vital information here. if you want to waste your cum, go ahead. your loss.

>>4297186
>generalizations
pic. related.

>Thus, friends, the reason for..

>>4297288
>>4297293
>>4297296
get good, shitty ideas

>>4297403
>but the sure heart's release

In this excerpt: Will to nothingness.

>>4297411
definition?

It sounds like a paradox

>>4297412
I don't think that phrase can become any clearer than it is. Freddy excerpt for context:

>The Christian concept of a god the god as the patron of the sick, the god as a spinner of cobwebs, the god as a spirit is one of the most corrupt concepts that has ever been set up in the world: it probably touches low water mark in the ebbing evolution of the god type. God degenerated into the contradiction of life . Instead of being its transfiguration and eternal Yea! In him war is declared on life, on nature, on the will to live! God becomes the formula for every slander upon the "here and now," and for every lie about the "beyond"! In him nothingness is deified, and the will to nothingness is made holy!

inb4 mid 20th century headgear remarks

>>4297421
This invites an idea that has yet to be discussed.

There is no fluidity in this discussion, because "the sure heart's release" is of living a good life

A la, what's the point? What's the argument?

>>4297423
The point is that asceticism, self-sacrifice, holiness and 'goodness' are sickness clad in pretty robes. Sickness, but self-serving sickness none the less.

Another excerpt regarding this will to nothingness:

http://www.lexido.com/EBOOK_TEXTS/THE_ANTICHRIST_.aspx?S=43

>>4297435
It's a large presupposition upheld by no facts.

Release and relaxation are universal.

The will to nothingness isn't based around underlying facts either. Even more, the very nature of release and relaxation being universal is evidence enough against the idea.

No

>>4295997
>Should we, for some periods, strive for austerity, self-sacrifice and abstinence just for the hell of it?

no

>>4297438
(B)
http://fuuka.warosu.org/lit/thread/4286631

>The principle of sufficient reason is one of four laws of logic which states that nothing is without a causation

Cause and effect support Creation because in an infinite regress, there would still be "stuff" that would require a cause.

Any rejection of Cause and Effect - what has literally given place to all science from logic - would require a replacement or the backing up of the idea that all logic trains end insufficiently; because life is more than stuff. If there would be "more" than stuff, then there would be more than what could recognize patterns - an all-knowing.

>>4297438
>upheld by no facts
Of course not, value judgements never are. Did you read the link I provided?

>>4297446
Inherent value exists. It's listed. (>>4297411)

The idea of a true Way, fully supported by ancient text; and side paths. It's quite obvious.

>>4297458
>Inherent value exists
Kek, explain yourself. Apart from appeal to bronze age authority.

my happiness is tied directly to cutting away the baggage

>Release and relaxation are universal
Clarity, etc..

Take a step back? This idea is already explained in the above picture -- dumb shit, as is a popular term and is being summed up as humorous... and talking about dumb shit isn't the idea. It's the release. It has nothing to do with knowing, either, which might be the proof for which is being searched (>>4296515).

>>4297465
>>>4297483

>>4297483
>my vague orientalist references suffice as a justification for the existence of inherent value

>>4297504
The logic is in green. Obviously release can be found everywhere. To label it might be looking too closely.

And the rest of The Way is of being universal as well. If, like Cause and Effect, it would be rejected, then an alternative would have to be presented.

>>4296007
>"The so-called social pleasures for which we prepare a week or two in advance amount to so little; on the other hand, even the most insignificant thing may accidentally offer rich material for amusement. It is impossible here to go into detail, for no theory can adequately embrace the concrete. Even the most completely developed theory is poverty-stricken compared with the fullness which the man of genius easily discovers in his ubiquity."

Even Kierkegaard recognizes that his method of crop rotation will become rather impotent in the long run, as one deprives themselves of finite pleasures only to enjoy them for a short time. However, he points out that the byproduct of this is that one can recognize that these hedonistic goals are leading them nowhere, enabling them to sustain inner arbitrariness that leads to rich pleasures in accordance with the relationships between recollecting and forgetting.

>>4297512
>release and relaxation are universal (what does this mean anyway?)
>therefore inherent value exists

What?

>Obviously release can be found everywhere.
Nonsensical platitude.

>To label it might be looking too closely.
Obscurantism.

>And the rest of The Way is of being universal as well. If, like Cause and Effect, it would be rejected, then an alternative would have to be presented.
You are not saying anything.

You sound like a 17yo stoner after his first reading of Laozi, baby boy.

>>4297527
>http://fuuka.warosu.org/lit/thread/4286631 (>>4297443)

>must either reject the principle of sufficient reason and therefore the very foundation for scientific causation, or accept the existence of God

There aren't really any questions here except to prove inherent value. Value is universal, if even just as a label for unpredictability or the all-encompassing status quo of quietness.

The return question, surely, could be can you relate to such release? Then why question it as universal.. or as value?

>>4297542
>Value is universal, if even just as a label for unpredictability or the all-encompassing status quo of quietness.
You have obviously transcended logic.

>>4296515
is there a name for this collection?

>>4298137
http://www.amazon.com/Teachings-Buddha-Jack-Kornfield/dp/1590305086

>>4297246

>>4297246
Fuck, this one goes deep.