/lit/ - Literature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s

>>4292714

His lyrics are mediocre.

>political and social views
>commendable

Wasn't he a Fascist supporter and a racist? Unless you're one of those guys that posted in the right-wing lit thread of course.

>>4292734
>Wasn't he a Fascist supporter and a racist?

Truly sad when people generalize entire schools of thought with negative connotations.

>>4292754
He literally was both a Fascist supporter and a racist, though. There's no way you can argue against either of those statements.

Do not move
Let the wind speak
that is paradise.
Let the Gods forgive what I
have made
Let those I love try to forgive
what I have made.

>>4292757

He was mainly against a corrupt financial system that threatened to undermine and bankrupt nations.

The fact that he noticed a certain minority of people controlling that financial structure is hardly something we can fault him with.

Besides he's a genius of the highest caliber.

>>4292708
toppest cake

>>4292784
He was literally thrown in a mental institution for his views.

>>4292784
So much cake

>>4292784
>The fact that he noticed
I will find fault in him and you both.

>>4292757
>>4292734

NO SHIT????

This only comes up EVERY
EZRA POUND
TS ELIOT
HEIDEGGER thread ever made. Are you just flexing your capacious amount of writer "fun facts?" Well then congratulations. Maybe like one underage nerd browsing /lit/ learned somehting new today.

>>4292876
If you merely wanted it to be just an aesthetic discussion of his poetry you shouldn't have brought up his 'commendable' political and social views.

>>4292876

did u no foucault had AIDS

Loved his ABC of Reading. Reading Pound really got me into poetry and understanding what it can do. His Cantos are pretty amazing too. I really envy his intellect.

Anyone read Hugh Kenner's The Pound Era? I highly recommend it.

>>4292889
haha what a faggot am i rite?

>>4292848
>>The fact that he noticed
>I will find fault in him and you both.

heheheh kek

The tree has entered my hands,
The sap has ascended my arms,
The tree has grown in my breast -
Downward,
The branches grow out of me, like arms.

Tree you are,
Moss you are,
You are violets with wind above them.
A child - so high - you are,
And all this is folly to the world.
-Pound

For three years, out of key with his time,
He strove to resuscitate the dead art
Of poetry; to maintain "the sublime"
In the old sense. Wrong from the start --
No, hardly, but, seeing he had been born
In a half savage country, out of date;

>>4292708
>He created many poets and taught them how to write.

yep, this is a good point people overlook

>>4292708
Who is that? Great facial structure. Would totally want to be deep inside of him.

>>4293345
>Who is that?

He is a curiosity.
You should be able to figure this out.

Is Wallace Stevens okay?

>>4293401

"Like decorations in a Nigger Cemetary"

Is a fantastic work.

>>4293361
Pound indeed ;)

Why were modernist poets so superior in almost every way to romantics and post-momos?

>>4293495

Why is it that it only takes one Romantic poet to be superior to every modern poet combined?

>>4293528

Who the fuck are you?

>>4293563

>oh_shit_i_have_nothing_for_that.flv

>>4293495
Romanticism, Modernism, Postmodernism were developing symptoms of the same post-Enlightenment secularist disease.

>>4293587

>i am classicist, hipster and fedora and yet this isn't even my final form

>>4293587
Enlightenment was the developing symptoms for the post-Catholic rationalist disease.

>>4293590
hipsters are postmodern and fedoras are modern, so no

>>4293587

Tell us about your old ways

>>4293587

Back to hell and where your jewish canaanite god came from

>>4293603
>jewish
>canaanite

choose one

>>4293609

>Yahweh, prior to becoming Yahweh, the national god of Israel, and taking on monotheistic attributes in the 6th century BCE, was a part of the Canaanite pantheon in the period before the Babylonian captivity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_%28Canaanite_deity%29

>>4293602
Romanticism was largely pagan nature worship.
Unable to worship nature sincerely, modernism went on to worship reason / the "will".
Postmodernism couldn't even take that seriously, and worships nothing, "all that is solid melts to air, all that is holy is profaned".
It's the fallout from the collapse of Christian belief, ritual and worship in popular culture. The effect is nihilism, total lack of worship. There are still some residual Christian virtues kicking around but they have degenerated, e.g. the Christian belief in equality/brotherhood before God has become a belief in equality/brotherhood in material terms (egalitarianism). The closest thing we have in popular culture that resembles any form of worship is a music concert --- the performer is the statue / idol, the audience are the worshippers / revellers, there's music, drink and drugs to induce a trance-like state, the only thing that's really missing is a visible sacrifice, but I suppose the money that they pay to get in could count as that (interestingly, there is more and more occult symbolism in concerts nowadays, with the pyramid/all-seeing-eye being on display, pentagrams, etc.) An ancient pagan would feel right at home in our modern music concerts.
People need religion.

>>4293626
>Unable to worship nature sincerely, modernism went on to worship reason

I don't get that sense at all when reading Pound, where does he worship reason or will? In fact he glorifies nature quite often.

>There are still some residual Christian virtues kicking around but they have degenerated

The same values that undermined pagan Nature worship. Ironically and lead to materialism, globalism, nihilism.

>People need religion.

You aren't saying anything.

>>4293626

>modernism went on to worship reason

in terms of poetry? not so much

it would be more accurate to say that it went on to further explore smaller interior environments of the mind, as opposed to the sweeping veneration that so many romantics worked towards.

a natural artistic progression, really

>>4293630
>I don't get that sense at all when reading Pound, where does he worship reason or will?

Don't know, don't care.

>The same values that undermined pagan Nature worship

Nature worship is awful btw.

> Ironically and lead to materialism, globalism, nihilism.

They didn't lead to that, they are the effects of it. Replace globalism with multiculturalism btw, globalism is largely political/economic as well as being cultural.

>>4293633
>Replace globalism btw,

Christianity seeks to convert the entire world, in doing so it destroys cultures. The basis of globalism were created by Paul:

>For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; Romans 10:12
>There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 3:28
>there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian. Col 3:11

> globalism is largely political/economic

So is christianity.

>it is necessary to submit to the authorities...This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.":::: Romans 13:5-7:
>obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,
> be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.


Christianity is a degenerate NWO force similar to Islam, although it has more redeeming qualities. I'll stick with Modernists and Pagans thanks.

>>4293637

>>4293639

ruining your own post with samefag

for shame

>>4293639

don't forget the instruction to spread the disease

>He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

>>4293637
>Christianity seeks to convert the entire world, in doing so it destroys cultures.

I agree with this.

>The basis of globalism were created by Paul

This is a bit disingenuous. Alexander the Great was a "globalist" before Christ was even born. The modern form of "globalism" is just a euphemism for global imperialism, and it's being run by the elite who are largely secular, freemasons, Jews, etc., of varying beliefs but who all agree that they should run the world. There is a sense in which you are right though --- Christianity seeks to refashion the world based on its image of God / the Church, which is a bit different to the Emperors who want to recreate the world in their own image.

>Christianity is a degenerate NWO force similar to Islam, although it has more redeeming qualities.

If anything Christianity and Islam are anti-NWO because the NWO is spreading liberalism/materialism/freemasonry, which are abhorred by Christianity (at least Catholicism) and Islam.

>>4293647
>This is a bit disingenuous. Alexander the Great was a "globalist" before Christ was even born.

Ya I didn't mean he was the first in the world to do it. I mean promoted a globalist Christianity.

>If anything Christianity and Islam are anti-NWO because the NWO is spreading liberalism/materialism/freemasonry, which are abhorred by Christianity (at least Catholicism) and Islam.

Globalist in the sense that it wants to become a ruling monoculture that ignores races and nations, and replace native cultures with its own ideology. It did so with the pagans, and does so everywhere in the world.

Islam wants world domination just like Christianity, to go to each country, replace the culture, and really destroy diversity.

Liberalism/Multiculturalism destroy diversity by putting everyone into a melting-pot.

Pound is my fav poet as well

>>4293661
>Islam wants world domination just like Christianity, to go to each country, replace the culture, and really destroy diversity.

To an extent yeah, but remember that while Europe was Catholic/Christian there was a "family of nations" who each had their own distinct identity/culture.

Aztec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NCS5ut7d7c
Inca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AAvFf0Rjnw
North Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n56dsEfxqfw

Some example of Christian conversion of pagan cultures. It's from a Catholic source though so you may accuse it of bias.

>>4293401
Wallace Stevens is out-freaking-standing.

>>4293590
I laffed for some reason.

>>4293661
Well said

>>4293661
I was with you till this line
>Liberalism/Multiculturalism destroy diversity by putting everyone into a melting-pot.
What part of "multi-culturalism" do you not see? Capitalism does stake out a McDonald's everywhere but I don't see that as the "melting pot." Cultures just naturally melt/mix together when thrown together.

>>4292891
>I really envy his intellect.

>>4292708
>He created many poets and taught them how to write
Is this referring to his ABC of Reading? Is it a good starting point for getting into reading/writing poetry? Or is there a better one?

>>4292708

My problem with Pound are not his actions: he was deep down a good person. Lincoln, for example, was a racist, but he freed the slaves after all. At the same time Robespierre advocated against the death penalty and for the abolition of slavery, while supporting equality of rights, universal suffrage and the establishment of a republic, and yet he was one of the main responsible for thousands and thousands of beheadings during the Terror – words don’t count nothing in matter of ethics, but acts do.

My problem with him is his poetic theory, which, firstly, saw the sound and sonority in poetry as more important than the metaphors and imagery. Well, this is one of the main reasons for today’s poetry (and even Pound and Eliot’s poetry) be filled with poems were words are glued together in nonsense sentences only for the stupid desire of making striking sound-patterns. This is ridiculous, for words and poetry will never be music. Of course you might try to create more wild and rough passages, or more drowsy and silken ones, but only if you do not sacrifice the sense and the imagery for this sake.

Secondly, Pound thought that the fusion of concrete language with abstract language should not be used. This is crazy! The marriage of concrete and abstract language is one of the most powerful tools of a poetical arsenal. Want an example? If concrete and abstract language should not be mixed many of the most glorious passages of Shakespeare (better that almoust anything else in recorded literature) would not exist, such as:

that his virtues
Will plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against
The deep damnation of his taking-off;
And pity, like a naked newborn babe,
Striding the blast, or heaven’s cherubim, horsed
Upon the sightless couriers of the air,
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
That tears shall drown the wind.

(here, for example, Pity is an abstraction, but is connected with the concrete image of a babe)

Or

By heaven, methinks it were an easy leap
To pluck bright honor from the pale-faced moon,
Or dive into the bottom of the deep,
Where fathom line could never touch the ground,
And pluck up drownèd honor by the locks,
So he that doth redeem her thence might wear
Without corrival all her dignities.
But out upon this half-faced fellowship!

(here the most string passage is that of honor being plucked by its locks; well, Honor is an abstraction, and it certainly had no locks and cant drown. But this passage is better than anything that Pound ever wrote).

>>4292891

ABC of Reading is incredible.

It should be the textbook for every introduction to poetry class.

After years of finding poetry dull and impenetrable, that book opened my eyes to its beauty.

It helps that Pound cut through the bullshit stirrings of post-modernism and advised his readers to avoid the politically-biased academic hype machine that buoys mediocre contemporary poetry.

Put in an institution for expressing what every intellectually honest conservative is afraid too. Welcome to modernity.

I honest to God despise what Pound and Eliot did to literature. They turned poetry, an art of capturing emotion, isolating it in the most beautiful images, cloaking it in intricate form all the while keeping the feeling and heart of the author at center, and turned it into this obscurant, scholarly artform where everyone tried to be a little bit more clever than everyone else.

Fucking Sanskrit quotes and Italian passages of Dante. Those cunts literally couldn't get over how smart they were. Frost - now there was a man who knew how to tastefully reference Dante. Check "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening" as an example, and compare that with "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock". One is the work of a true poet and man and the other is the work of a scholar and pretender vaguely grasping at an emotion he hasn't felt.

>>4294220

The same goes for Joyce, etc.

>>4294221
At least Joyce performed his intellectual masturbation with some self-awareness. Check his quotes on deliberately making Ulysses obscurant to try and keep it in discussion and debate. For me he's not on the same level of offense as those two.

>>4294218
Welcome to the world wedged between two world wars.

>>4294222

What, so using obscure references ironically, to artificially garner fame, is less offensive to you than deliberately using intellectual superiority to express your disgust of mass culture?

At least the last is honest, even if it, too, makes for poor reading.

>>4294271

Funnily he remained free until post-ww2, when the world was finally divided between the two heirs of Fordism.

>>4294274
I don't like either of them. Neither were conducive to good poetry or writing in my eyes. I despise intellectual masturbation, but I found Joyce's style of it slightly less loathsome because it held some kind of awareness of its absurdity at its core.

>>4293626
>Romanticism was largely pagan nature worship.

full retard

>>4293626
>terestingly, there is more and more occult symbolism in concerts nowadays, with the pyramid/all-seeing-eye being on display, pentagrams


yes, but the effect of using any kind of symbolism in these strictly artistic-hedonistic places is that it completely strips them of any meaning they might have had. like rammstein reusing fascist imagery, all it does is to decontextualize it and eventually make it completely ineffectual. it's an even more potent form of ridicule, in a way.

>>4292708
World's first talent agent.
Some of the cantos are commendable though.
Especially XIX and XX

>>4292708
>His political and social views were also commendable.

wasn't he a fascist?

makes senses when you consider all dem rules for poetry he made up

>>4294181
You may want to learn poetry beginning with a more traditional stance, not only so you can appreciate older poetry, but so that you can appreciate the strides made in modernist poetry as well. Not sure how traditional "ABC of Reading" is, but I wanted to point that out since no one else responded.

>>4294327
op is just a /pol/tard, pay no mind

>>4293626
>Romanticism was largely pagan nature worship
Except that it wasn't. Romanticism was an outcry against enclosures and the industrialisation which followed that succeeded in making wage slaves of us all.

>>4294189
Zizek already explained why Robespierre's activities actions were not only reasonable but perhaps historically necessary. Libs don't understand how revolutions work and what may follow


Grow up.

>>4294189
>>4294352
Educate yourself.

wow I can't believe all the ignorance in this thread.
Pound was a fantastic poet and thinker

>>4294642
>hating Pound
>hating modernism
>ignorance

>>4294655

yep I pick all three.

I don't even like using these arbitrary terms like 'modernism' -- no such thing. Every modernist is quite different

>>4294725
Pound is a twat.

>>4294759

End yourself