/lit/ - Literature

No, they're strictly a combination of words and images, but not always words. Literature can also be a combination of words and images, but it's not always images. Literature is the art of the written word. Comic books are the art of some written words but mainly illustration.

>>4251734

+1

That's not to say that there aren't parallels, but the ability to use only words and guided imagery is what makes literature, well... literature.

I'm a huge comic fan though and I gravitate towards more "literary" works.

There's adaptations of most of Dostoevsky's novels in graphic form. I like them.

>>4251734
>>4251739
Actually, you're both wrong. For years colleges around the world have been offering elective classes focusing on comics as literature. Also, as of this year, you can even get an english degree with a major in graphic narrative.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/03/08/yes-you-can-now-major-in-comics-literature-by-professor-jeremy-larance/

Here we fucking go.

Why would someone care about this?

>>4251788
You can get degrees in art history too, does that mean history is an art?

>>4251792

>does that mean history is an art?

No? That would be history art, bro. Art history is the history of art.

History art would be the art of history.

GET IT TOGETHER BRO

>>4251803
BRO

>>4251792
First, art history is the history of art, second, history itself is art. It's the creation of narrative from peoples and events.

>>4251813
>First, comic literature is the literature of comic, second, literature itself is comic.
BRO

>>4251731
>literature
>written works, especially those considered of superior or lasting artistic merit.

I'd take the written to mean exclusively writing without images. In this case comic books are not literature. Comic can be superior or having lasting merit, obviously.

>>4251812
>>4251820

BROS

As a BROstorian I don't really think of BROstory as being art.

It's just the detailing of the lives of BROS from times long past.

>>4251832
Art doesn't have an agreed upon definition, so pretty much anything could be art. You could be an art right now, and you wouldn't even suspect it.

I've got my eye on you.

>>4251731
I don't actually read books.

>>4251825
According to you, a screenplay is literature until it becomes a film. Can't you see how this doesn't make any sense? It's the same with plays, song lyrics, video games and comic books. Literature shouldn't be dismissed just because it's accompanied by images.

>>4251865
>According to you, a screenplay is literature until it becomes a film. Can't you see how this doesn't make any sense?

it makes sense to me. the text of hamlet is literature, but a performance of hamlet is a performance of a piece of literature, not literature itself.

and he wasn't dismissing anything. he's just saying it's not the same medium.

>>4251865
I was gonna respond to you but
>>4251874
said it better than I could

>>4251874
The writing doesn't cease to exist just because it changes form. Literature is literature, regardless of how you consume it.

>>4251888
In that case 4chan is literature because the code was written. Do you not see the problem here? Yes the distinctions between literature and other art forms are arbitrary to some extent but we need them to make sense of the world. You're just making a pointless semantic argument for the sake of it. I'm sure if you were in a different mood you'd agree you could tell the difference between literature and not-literature. Everyone else manages to.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-wolk/how-comics-became-literat_b_884238.html

>>4251902
I resent the implication that Bone was targeted towards children.

>>4251905
God forbid a good piece of art may be targeted at children huh? People might think I'm less cool instead of more cool for enjoying it.

It's called graphic novel OP.

Of course they are literature. Go read Fun Home by Alison Bechdel. It is a tragicomic, coming-of-age story, larded with literary references especially modernist lit., beautifully written and artfully drawn.

>>4251953
Graphic narrative is a better term because it doesn't exclude autobiographical works such as Spiegelmann's Maus

>>4251788
>For years colleges around the world have been offering elective classes focusing on comics as literature. Also, as of this year, you can even get an english degree with a major in graphic narrative.
That doesn't mean anything at all. Colleges (especially liberal arts ones) are just daycare centers for rich manchildren.

They'll give you any degree as long as there's money in it.

Case and point: you can literally get a degree in privilege-checking and tumblr nowadays.

Does that mean that privilege-checking your tumblr has some sort of intellectual legitimacy? No, it just means that enough people are willing to pay money to privilege-check their tumblr for four years to make the degree viable to the college from a business perspective.

>>4251956
Can't autobiographies be novels?

>>4251958
not the one you're responding to, but if you go with lejeune, novels can't be autobiographies due to the perceived fictional nature of the novel.

>>4251959
Lejeune? I mainly think of novels as being extended narratives but I'm prepared to be shown to be wrong.

>>4251956
Then you might as well could say comic. Watchmen is a graphic novel which would be a graphic narrative but not every graphic narrative is a graphic novel. Saying I might agree that Watchmen, Vertigo's Sandman, or Preacher are literature I think the Fantastic Four for instance are just comics.

>>4251961
i would actually agree with you on the extended narrative-part. actually it is a pretty interesting question how much "truth" should be contained in an autobiography or an autobiographic novel for it to be considered a "true autobiography."
the point i was trying to make is that lejeune argues it is necessary for an autobiography to be true, and that a novel inherently can't be true (if i recall correctly, can't be arsed to look it up now). now this is pretty black-and-white and i don't want to argue semantics, i think your definiton of the novel as extended narrative is as valid as lejeune's of it as an obviously fictional text, but somehow i'm still unhappy with including autobiographies under the term 'novel'

>>4251968
I don't know who this Lejeune you're talking about is, nor can I find any obvious contenders during a quick search but I'll take your word for it. I could argue the semantics that all writing is fiction as it's the writer's perception of things committed to paper and blah blah but yes I see what you mean. Either definition can be used in the appropriate contexts there's nothing to argue about.

>>4251968
I think an autobiography should be written after death by someone else obviously. If you yourself are involved to any degree I would consider it just a memory piece.

>>4251972
I think you need to look up the difference between a biography and an autobiography.

>>4251975
I think you're right.

sure
they're just not good

>not liking comic books and manga
Come on guys. Seriously.

>>4252030
Chris Ware
Charles Burns
Mazzuchelli's Asterios Polyp
Inio Asano
Dan Kim's NNN
David Sim's Cerberus the Aardvark
Seth, Joe Matt & Chester Brown
Hayashida Q's Dorohedoro
Moebius stuff (Jean Giraud)
Art Spiegelman
Robert Crumb
Daniel Clowes
George Herriman

>>4251813
lol

>>4251731
I really don't think it matters.

>>4252671
It matters only insofar that fat comic book fans need to be validated for liking what they like.

>>4251731
They incorporate elements of literature and elements of visual arts.

This has no bearing on whether they are "good."

/thread

>>4252674
I'd tend to agree with this. While I do not doubt that there is high artistic merit in some comic books, I think it would be silly to shoe horn them into the term "literature". Even Alan Moore refuses to call Watchmen a graphic novel.

>>4251731
>Are comic books literature?
Yes. Really shitty literature for manchildren.

>>4252671
this.
>2013
>worrying about low/high art dichotomy

>>4252674

Why did you read Discourse on the Method?

Yes. See: Watchmen or Message to Adolf. Though Pheonix has been regarded as the better of Osamu Tezukas work

>>4251825

Children's lit often deals with books that have both pictures and words.

>>4252699
>Even Alan Moore refuses to call Watchmen a graphic novel.
it's mostly because he doesn't want his stuff associated with other stuff
he got so fucked by major publishers (or at least he feels that he did) that he's a bit paranoid and gets cranky whenever his stuff gets popular.
He also complains about any adaptation of his works.

>>4252732
I think people should. There are different standards. Read some Roger Scruton.

So according to this thread:
>comics are not literature, but they can be good
>comics are not good, but they can be literature

Yes, this questions has been answered years ago OP

hell even contemporary linguistics departments are creaming themselves over studying the grammer of the graphic narrative.

>>4253639
>it's mostly because he doesn't want his stuff associated with other stuff

Possibly but it seemed to me that he was of the opinion that films can't accurately replicated comics because they're a separate medium. Much like comics are separate to literature but are not objectively "worse" or of less value.

He mentions it in this interview, and also makes a clear distinction between his novels and comic work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuBFd1rlWWA

Him getting fucked by publishers is no doubt a factor but I really do feel that Moore thinks that comics are completely separate to literature.

>>4251731
Why would you start that topic with anything else than GOAT city of glass

>>4251734
>Comic books are the art of some written words but mainly illustration.
this definition doesnt hit the nail on the head either, its more like comics is the art of sequential illustration/graphics which can also incorporate words but doesnt have to

>>4252160
hey

ur a cutie

>>4253531
Yes, Phoenix is great (third volume over all).

Is Homestuck literature?

No

comic books is a vastly inferior medium largely populated by vastly inferior creators

what's the difference between graphic novels and comics

>>4251803
No, history is a craft. It is the creation of a narrative via source material.

>>4254463
I bet you haven't even bothered to read the greats of comics before making that statement.

Even if you had, it's a medium that's been around for about a century? Give it time. There's no intrinsic reason why it could not reach the heights of books.

>>4254480
>There's no intrinsic reason why it could not reach the heights of books.
There is. It's a medium that by its very nature puts shackles on the imagination

>comics are words and pictures being combined to tell a story
No, comics are simply narratives using images to convey what happens within the story.

>>4254480
>it's a medium that's been around for about a century

not even close bruh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_art

>>4254528
Wouldn't any medium be inferior to literature, in that case? I assume that is your point.

>>4254467
Graphic novels are generally stories in comic format that fit in a single volume.
It's also a meaningless buzzword that was made up to pretend said volumes contained more mature stories and thus deserved their own genre over "paltry comics".

>>4254951
Will Eisner, the creator of the term, came to regret coining it for this very reason.

>>4254480
film did some impressive things pretty fast, genius doesn't take over a century

not that i think comics are worthless, haven't read enough, but the "young medium" argument is bullshit

I would argue that while comic books aren't literature, they are still a legitimate art form that, on occasion, produces deep and thought-provoking subject matter. Literature, I believe, describes a work of written language rather than a work created in a visual medium.

>>4254951
>>4254968
Manga also has a similar term, Gekigan. Manga means "frivolous pictures" or something, and Gekigan means "serious pictures".
The term doesn't hold much nearly as much water in Nippon.

No, and that's not something any artist using his or her talents in the medium should be ashamed of.

Each medium has its faults and its strengths.

>>4252160
What about Joe Sacco? Footnotes in Gaza is one of my favorite comics.