/lit/ - Literature

>>4252041
Tell me more about you mastery of ancient greek, french, italian, russian, german and spanish to read any book freely.

>>4252044
+r

>>4252044
never mind Mandarin Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Hindi, you stupid shit, OP

>>4252061
>>4252044
niggers not even speaking goidelic languages

>>4252044
>not being fluent in all of these
plebs these days

I read english language books all the time

>not initiating a direct neuron link between your brain and the authors so there can be no misinterpretation of the text

stay pleb

>missing entire books from other languages
>because you'd miss something from them in the translation

Am I the only one who sees this as completely illogical?

>>4252061
Mandarin is a spoken language, so learning it wouldn't help you anyway.

>shitposting

I wish I could sage

>falling for troll bait
never change /lit/

>>4252044
>not speaking french and spanish

I imagine most people here can speak at least 3 languages

English, Czech or something, and something ancient (Latin probably)

>>4252099
>>4252100
Speaking them doesn't matter, it's whether you can READ them.

> still adhering to the Sapir-Whorf thesis

>говорить по-английски

As someone who knows Russian, Greek, English and German I'd say an inherent difference does indeed exist

> implying time is better spent learning the minutiae of a foreign language, idioms, &c, than just read tons of books in your own language with footnotes explaining some notable lingual discrepencies

>>4252044
>>4252061
>2013
>not being a hyperpolyglot

>>4252112
>trusting a translator
>reading a thoroughly raped, second-hand text
plebbus maximus

I am going to say something you won't like: I am into translating Latin works, and I can tell you for sure that they are not intended for us, but for the majority of the people, fucking illitterate;
I read my Catulli Carmina yesterday while I was taking a crap, and I was astonished how badly it was translated; some poetic licences were absolutely horrific.I asked myself "why? Why? But Mandrizzato is even such a good transaltor, why?"
Then I understood he hadn't translated for students that read it for school, but for the public who wants to seem smarter than they really are.

>>4252044
Cant spend a small amount of time learning a new language every one or two years.

I can understand if you're a teen or something, but if you can't speak at least four languages by the time you're 30 I dont even know what to say

>>4252044
the four western european languages can all be learnt enough to read in 6 months, 8 or 10 if you're a lazy shit.

ancienct greek and russian take longer, but not significantly so.

I only read English lit cause its the only language I know but I'll be living in Greece soon. What are some good websites or programs for learning Greek? Will I be able to read greek philosophy in its original form?

>>4252208
what a retarded fucking question.

>hey guys if i learn italian will i be able to read latin

>hey guys if i learn hindi will i be able to read sanskrit

>>4252215
Why are you so angry my child

>>4252217
YOU'RE NOT MY REAL MOM

>>4252101
You can listen to an audiobook then

>>4252215
I'm sooooo sorry, fucker. Anything of worth written in the modern greek language?

>>4252215
Niether the majority of Italian pupils can read and understand Latin.

>>4252090
This.

At least, you should read in:

-English.
.Spanish.
-French.

Next languages are Latin, German, Russian and Italian.

>>4252090

I absolutely agree. You can be discerning, too. You lose an awful lot reading Laforgue or Baudelaire in English, but not nearly as much reading Stendhal or Voltaire.

>>4252323
Spanish is my mother tongue, learned english while a kid and started German in university.

>>4252044
>>4252061
>implying this is even my final form

>>4252202
You forgot the part where you need to have the time available to you to study the languages...

We're not all living the NEET life on mommy's dime you know.

>>4252208
hey Jon

>>4252323
I say: I used to study German in middle school, and it helped a lot for understanding Latin better.
You are doing a right choice, my AnonFriend.
(Prepare yourself to be devastaded by Italian language, I hereby promise that it won't be easy at all)

>>4252323
English, Spanish, and French? Why? Once you know English and one of either French or Spanish, move on to a more important language.

>>4252388

I found Italian, by some distance, the most enjoyable language to learn. I think I just found it pleasant to hear my gruff, celtic tongue shaping beautiful sounds.

>>4252341
>I cant spend a half hour a day making flesh cards to read over at work
>I cant watch movies in a different language for practice during the seekends
>I cant listen to educational tapes during my drive to and from work
>fucking neets and their booklearning

Not to mention that the best way to learn a language is getting a job in a different country, which requires working

>>4252431
>flesh cards
That's hot.

Good luck reading Kierkegaard in Danish, it's 100% pure autism.

>>4252431
>>I cant spend a half hour a day making flesh cards to read over at work
>still using flashcards (lrn2Anki noob)
>reading flashcards at work instead of doing your goddamn job

>>I cant watch movies in a different language for practice during the seekends
>>I cant listen to educational tapes during my drive to and from work

lol. Neither of those activities will help to any significant degree in learning a new language. Are you monolingual?

>Not to mention that the best way to learn a language is getting a job in a different country, which requires working

Yes, everyone is free to up and move to another fucking country every time they want to learn a new language!


God, /lit/, what a bunch of gits you faggots are.

>>4252431
>flashcards

>>4252189

If you actually knew four languages, you'd know what to say because somewhere in the vocabulary of those four languages would be a phrase, idiom, or word that suited your needs perfectly.

u fukken tosser

>>4252393
You must pay attention how you say Italian words, my AnonFriend.
If you pronounce, e.g. , "Ita-lì-a", you're wrong, it is pronounced "I-tàli-a"
Or even harder: "Magia" is pronounced without a "gh"; Think of the "g" of "magia" as "j" in "John"

(If you can, can you say something in Italian and register it with Vocaroo?)

>mfw someone has studied a language for years and still doesn't know the grammar in and out
>mfw calling yourself fluent when you can't read the literary greats of a language with ease

I tried learning German but I don't know where to begin. I downloaded this app that my friend claimed helped him learn French but it just teaches me vocab and absolutely no grammar.

>>4252561
How many people actually know English grammar in and out? Being able to read and write at a high level is not the same as actually understanding what you are doing.

I can read classical French literature without any problems and at a decent speed, but I wouldn't be able to give you a technical breakdown of the grammar in most cases. It's just unthinking. Once you sublimate that knowledge for the first time, you also forget it, in a way.

>>4252341
you obviously have time enough to complain about being poor on 4chan, maybe remove one hour of f5ing a day and learn anyway.

>they dont work as professional translators combining career and usefull learning opportunities!

It's like you faggots want to die miserable!

Also back to reddit you go if you think a shitty app with abc exercises or flashcards alone is called studying. I guess watching F1 is all you need to be as good as Schumaher right?

>>4252443
>Yes, everyone is free to up and move to another fucking country every time they want to learn a new language!

yes you are.

sell your stuff, go on a holiday visa, work under the table.

don't pretend you're shackled up in a plantation,unable to learn anything when in reality you just. don't. want. to.

>>4252573
I'm not poor, I was just pointing out the obvious to that privileged shithead.

>>4252579
Yeah, it's not like someone might have responsibilities to people other than themselves, right? What a crazy idea that is!

>>4252561
I do not call me fluent, but I still want to keep me in exsercise by reading them.
That's the reason why I went here in /lit/

>>4252581
>I'm not poor, I was just pointing out the obvious to that privileged shithead.

so you're just being a cunt for the sake of it?

>>4252611
Why don't you go suck a factory owner's dick or something.

>>4252581
>Yeah, it's not like someone might have responsibilities to people other than themselves, right? What a crazy idea that is!

You are free. You are not bound by responsibility, you consciously submit. It is a question of want. You don't. Don't pretend you're a victim of circumstance, you have agency and you have a choice.

>>4252616
i just don't get why you would assume it upon yourself to get offended in name of the poor, who really couldn't care less about anon's advice on language learning, while you yourself "aren't poor". what are you trying to achieve?

>>4252106
but is it important to understanding stories and characters?

>>4252620
Yeah, OK. Enjoy high school, and be careful not to cut yourself with those razor-sharp edges.

>>4252629
Do you gargle their balls and swallow as well?

>>4252041
I am only fluent in my own and the english language. How else am I supposed to enjoy literature outside of these two languages?

>>4252620
Very true, but most of us aren't sociopathic enough to abandon a family for the purpose of learning french.

>>4252675
So, just say "I don't want to." Don't play the victim.

>>4252638
>Do you gargle their balls and swallow as well?

you do know that you are also part of the bourgeoisie right. knowing that, and being a cunt on behalf of the poor does not exempt you.

>>4252688
Please show us where anyone "played the victim." All that was pointed out was that "move to another country" is terrible and useless advice for the vast majority of people looking to learn another language.

Maybe tone down the sanctimoniousness a little, huh?

>>4252697
Here:

>everyone is free to up and move to another
>All that was pointed out was that "move to another country" is terrible and useless advice

Might be impractical, but it isn't terrible, immersion is the best and fastest way to do it.

>>4252443
>lol. Neither of those activities will help to any significant degree in learning a new language. Are you monolingual?
No actually, I speak french and am learning spanish now.
My point is theres plenty of recourses out there. Its a good way to get started, if you follow up by finding some immigrants or traveling then you're well on your way to learning a new language.

>Yes, everyone is free to up and move to another fucking country every time they want to learn a new language!
After I graduated highschool I spent a summer working as a janitor then spent all that money on a plane ticket to france where I lived with a distant relative I'd hit on on facebook and worked on his farm. THere are plenty of programs out there, unless you have a family theres no reason you cant.

>>4252581
>I have strong opinions but am too intelectually lazy to even learn another language

Kill yourself

>>4252697
>move to another country" is terrible and useless advice for the vast majority of people looking to learn another language.

Thats how most people learn languages you stupid fucking faggot.

If you cant do that, find some immigrants and practice speaking with them. Stop bitching on /lit/ about what a lazy cunt you are that you cant even learn a second language.

>>4252803
May English be thought as a second language?
(Obv, for non-mothertongue people)
Because I can translate Latin and Ancient Greek as well, but nobody now talks in these languages.

>>4252846
You don't even talk with your instructors? My Ancient Greek prof and me have a bi-weekly conversation, it ingrains the grammar.

>>4252865
No, actually we just translate Ancient Greek excerpts into Italian.

>>4252448
amg holo

>>4252563
Grammar is secondary, a good vocabulary will help you much more. Hell, my German writing is fucking good but I can see myself failing hard in a grammar centered exam pretty bad.

>>4252431
None if it will allow you to read foreign literature in one year, unless you have some extreme talent for languages or much more time for your disposal.

Besides, it's such a waste to learn a language to read few books, unless you want to do it professionally out of passion.

>>4252790
So you had a lucky chance to go to France and learn an other language not far from English/French like Spanish. Good look on the German and Russian m8

>>4252884

>my German writing is fucking good

No, no it isn't. If you don't use proper grammar, your writing is terrible. Don't delude yourself, and start studying it. It is not hard.

>>4252914
I never said I don't use proper grammar but using it in actual prose is so much easier compared to singled out exercises. Fuck, I can barely name all the times or cases but can use them all freely.

Had similar stuff with English exams in college too, writing 5 pages of random text takes bit longer than 30 min and ends with A, grammatical questions was all guessing through to a lucky C.

>>4252803
What a privileged little brat you are to think someone is "lazy" for not just moving to another country.

btw

Es ist mir oft genug und immer mit grossem Befremden ausgedrückt worden, dass es etwas Gemeinsames und Auszeichnendes an allen meinen Schriften gäbe, von der "Geburt der Tragödie" an bis zum letzthin veröffentlichten "Vorspiel einer Philosophie der Zukunft": sie enthielten allesammt, hat man mir gesagt, Schlingen und Netze für unvorsichtige Vögel und beinahe eine beständige unvermerkte Aufforderung zur Umkehrung gewohnter Werthschätzungen und geschätzter Gewohnheiten. Wie? Alles nur - menschlich-allzumenschlich? Mit diesem Seufzer komme man aus meinen Schriften heraus, nicht ohne eine Art Scheu und Misstrauen selbst gegen die Moral, ja nicht übel versucht und ermuthigt, einmal den Fürsprecher der schlimmsten Dinge zu machen: wie als ob sie vielleicht nur die bestverleumdeten seien? Man hat meine Schriften eine Schule des Verdachts genannt, noch mehr der Verachtung, glücklicherweise auch des Muthes, ja der Verwegenheit. In der That, ich selbst glaube nicht, dass jemals jemand mit einem gleich tiefen Verdachte in die Welt gesehn hat, und nicht nur als gelegentlicher Anwalt des Teufels, sondern ebenso sehr, theologisch zu reden, als Feind und Vorforderer Gottes

What does Vorforderer mean?

>>4252041
>not translating all your books into ancient sumarien

>>4253293
Thats some shitty Nietzsche translation. From gutenberg I assume?

Vorforderer...seems like a fancy word for Herausforderer aka. challenger of god and all.

>>4252153
I remember that feel when I first started reading real Latin and then comparing it to the English translations. The horror.

>>4253293
>What does Vorforderer mean?

Literally: "For Fedoras", but taken to mean "pro-fedora."

>>4253368
>Nietzsche translation
>already in German

A translation from German into German? What?

>>4253405
Variation, uhh I just can't come up with the word right now.

It's clearly messed up.

>>4253414
what? pls explain, I didn´t know of this issue

>>4253420
Stuff like misspelled words.

>Werthschätzungen
>ermuthigt
>Muthes

There is no fucking H after T in this words.

>That
an other wrong H

>>4253430
that's just the old spelling

>>4253439
Even for Tat? Seems only right for Mut.

>Implying I know Mongolian

>>4253450
What's stopping you from learning it?

>>4252865
I study Ancient Greek too, but we just translate the texts and talk about them in English.

>>4252932
What exactly do you think privilige is anyways?
Or do you just use it as an excuse to never better yourself or do anything new or challenge yourself?

>>4252885
>lucky chance
Not really, the worlds pretty connected and all I did was search around a bit. If you just make a point of searching out opprotunities and hitting people up there are loads of stuff out there, I've had random strangers offer to let my live with them in italy and argentina as well. Even if you don't want to do that, there are things like WOOFing programs or university exchanges (assuming you have the money) that you can apply for.

>Good look on the German and Russian m8
I'm moving to Russia next year to work on some farm in exchange for room and board and teach english for extra money on the side. For an intelectual board, /lit/ is really pessemistic and negative, why is that?

Why would I want to learn a shitty language like French? They don't even have a real word for seventy.

>>4254137
u wot

>>4254142

That's literally sixty ten.
Who the fuck counts like that?

>>4252041
>OMEGA GOD TIER BUT REALLY WHO HAS TIME FOR THIS?
Reading a book in its original language and then enjoying a translation for comparison's sake to appreciate the beauty of both languages
>GREAT TIER
Reading a book in its original language
>IT'S OK TIER
Reading a translation

There is no shit tier, only shit books.

I know OP is pretty fucking stupid but to be honest when someone suggest to me to read something translated I wonder why bother. Being able to read in english and in russian literature I have enough original language material to last a lifetime.

>>4254127
>really pessemistic and negative,
>pessemistic
>For an intellectual board

>>4252103
>using google-translate

>>4254137
>>4254157
>>4254142

septante

>>4253397
>>4252153
How hard is Latin to learn? Is it a dead language with simple grammar and small vocabulary or is it like studying a honest to god foreign language.

>>4254188
Shut up Walloon.

>>4254191
If you've learned a language (especially Romance) before, and if you understand some basic grammar, you will pick up Latin with no problems even in self-study. If it's your first foreign language, the biggest problems will come from understanding grammatical concepts whose equivalents you only know through intuition in your native tongue - especially if you lack a professor to explain things for you, and ESPECIALLY if you use a textbook that isn't explicit in explaining these concepts as they crop up.

The hardest part of learning Latin is that true fluency takes years. There's so much variety to the language, such a huge array of texts, and so many forms of it (from the different eras of Classical, Medieval, and Learned Latin), that to feel truly comfortable "picking up and reading" it requires constant practice.

It is beautiful though, and one of the bonuses of learning a dead language that forces you to learn grammar in this way is that you will take that knowledge and apply it to other languages later; you will understand why most people who are "learning a language" are never actually going to be fluent, and you will be able to spot bunk horseshit like Rosetta Stone. Also, because it requires such diligence in reading & maintaining vocab, you will be able to learn the vocabulary (and usually grammar) of Romance languages ridiculously quickly.

is assimil good?

>>4254365
As Italian, I can just agree, but some advanced constructions are not so quicly understandable.
Italians are helped by the fact we have structures very similar to Latin ones, as in the exemple below:
(IT): Do un fiore a Luisa
(I give a flower to Luisa)
(LAT): Do florem Luisae(where Luisae is Dativ, German people have a boost, as they have a boost in learning Ancient Greek)

How hard is Russian if you're coming from English and French? I'm thinking of taking it next fall.

>>4254688
Rarely you will found some contacts with Ancient Greek(I remember something linked with "melaina", but I'm not so sure)

>>4254365
What's the best Latin to learn?
I wanna read books not speak it.

I speak English and Spanish fluently, and some very elementary German. What should I read in Spanish and/or some suggestions for easy German novels?

I will also be picking up French next year since I'm moving to Montreal.

>>4254688

I've recently been learning German and Russian and I'm finding Russian vocab to be incredibly easy because the alphabet is so different that I'm never finding myself encountering words like kind, for example, which visually overlap even though htye've got different meanings and pronunciations.

>>4254182
Though French literature and German philosophers are pretty amazing too Anon.

>>4254688
They use a lot French and English words, specially in the "higher language" but the alphabet might be a pain. Came from Russian to German which was not that hard for a kid and then learned English, that was a pain in school but later easy thanks to Interwebz but not sure if I could learn any cyrillic language without the basis of Russian. Grammar seems not that hard though but the basic vocabulary is just so different.

>>4254953
Not sure about novels but Kurzgeschichten are really popular in post WW2 Germany, so basically short stories and not a very hard read. As for Spanish, Cervantes, duh.

>>4254521
Italian or French seem to be a nice start for Spanish too, learning the latter recently, which is already not very hard but quite easy for the people who speak Italian/French natively.

Later I want to learn French but holy fuck, the pronunciation and even vocabulary seem fucking confusing. I could understand most Spanish texts with pure basics, doubt it would be this easy for French and can't think of any way but living in France...which I plan to do either way.

>>4254943
Learn Classical and then branch into Medieval and Learned unless you have a really really specific reason to learn Medieval first and in a hurry.

The only time anyone speaks Latin is for minor novelty effect or within very cloistered (no pun intended) church circles, and even that is basically for novelty effect.

>>4254688
I speak English and Russian fluently. I am learning French and have found that knowing Russian has helped me with French vocabulary as some of the words are pronounced similarly. In general, I find Russian grammar to be simple and in some ways comparable to Latin. Pronunciation can be difficult for non-native speakers and there is always the challenge of memorizing a new alphabet. Also worth mentioning is that classic Russian language writers like Tolstoy and Dostoevsky have very wordy writing styles and I would recommend more than just one semester of Russian language if that's what you want to read.

>>4252561
>mfw someone has studied a language for years and still doesn't know the grammar in and out

Anglos study languages for years and can't even hold a conversation in it.

>>4255086
>Anglos study languages for years and can't even hold a conversation in it.

They don't actually study it. They just sit on their asses and pass easy, watered-down courses. It's like expecting Cub Scouts to have real survival skills.

>>4255076
Yeah, I figured it would take a while. I just have to figure out how to balance it with my French and gov't courses.

>>4255163
>>4255076
Also, I'm not really in it for the literature. I just really dig languages.

Why the fuck do troll threads get the most replies? Is /lit/ really this stupid?

>>4254191
It's a dead language with really hard grammar and a small vocabulary with a million shades of meaning depending on context.

>>4255172
>telling people that they should learn more languages is trolling

>>4255172
>Learning languages is trolling
>Putting work into intelectual activites is stupid
>People should just read the /lit/ canon and get out
>So patrishun

>>4254191

I'm learning Latin at the moment. I'm using the Lingua Latina course (piratebay has it). I'm doing one chapter of the total 70 or something every two days.

The language actually feels kinda familiar to me. But, this is probably a result from me knowing French and from the type of course I'm doing. Lingua Latina has a very inductive approach.

>>4255306
Nice one, AnonFriend.
Honestly, I haven't studied so much Latin, because it was kinda easy, at least in the first two years.
But I'm Italian, so I think I cannot say anything bad about Latin.

>>4252041
>not preferring obscure renaissance-era scottish dialect translations to the original

Man, languages are so interesting. I've been learning German for something like 5 years and am actually studying in Germany now. I started reading Nietzsche a few months ago but decided that I was missing a lot, because it's also like poetry. So I went to some second-hand shop and picked up a few of his works in German. It's hard as fuck to read, even for someone who's pretty confident in his reading skills, but also so satisfying.

On top of that, I want to learn quite a few other languages! Since I've been here I want to learn Niederländisch, because it's so similar to German and English (given their all Germanic languages). And then French and Arabic and finally Mandarin. With that set of languages I feel like I could travel just about everywhere and get by just fine!

>>4255405
Whoops. I meant "they're all Germanic languages." I swear my English is getting worse.

>>4255405
>no spanish
>travel just about everywhere and get by just fine

>>4255405
Nederlands is piss simple to learn if you have German and English. It's like English phonetics over German vocabulary. I found their grammar easier to learn than German or English. If you can read Nietzsche, you'll find it simple enough. Viel Gluck :D

>a rose by any other name

>>4257805
>this is what plebs tell to themselves

>>4257547
>>4255405

Why learn Dutch, it's not really relevant.