/lit/ - Literature

Read. Think. Write. You won't become a decent writer over night, it takes training and dedication, just like it takes training and dedication to become good at any other activity.

Write.
Edit.

Repeat until you've learned.

write for your best-friend

>>4205973
>>Read

Read good writing. You know all those so-called "classics" that are so boring and hard? Fucking read them. Find out why they're classics, why western/eastern/whatever civilization could not let those books go.

For fucks sake, don't read any books by Tom Whats-his-name who wrote hundreds of shitty books about war and described guns for pages and pages. Anyway, he's dead now. Don't read his shit or anything else you find in a supermarket.

>>Think

Think about how much you suck as a writer and why you suck as a writer. Figure out what you want to convey in your writing and think about how to do that most effectively. Here's a hint: someone else has probably conveyed something similar before, so you may want to do some reading and then THINK about what you just read.

>>Write

It takes practice. You know that whole "success = 10,000 hours + luck" thing. Well, you do actually have to put in those 10,000 hours at some point. Get cracking.

>>4205997
>write for your best-friend
>best friend

I have none

>>4206020
perfect.

you must be somewhat disconnected from everyone else to be an interesting writer

>>4206020
Write for your worst enemy, pretending they're your best friend.

>>4205964
>Posting bestgirl

At least we know you're not a total loser. It takes practice. Lots of fucking practice and reading.

Not OP.
As a new writer, if I write a very detailed and thorough first draft and then I edit it to death, could I possibly get something good?
Like a polishing-a-turd-until-it-magically-turns-into-a-diamond kind of approach.

And, is that thing about "good writing doesn't feel like writing" true?

bump

>>4206479
writing is 90% editing, so yes, that's a good way to go about it

everything i write reads really really awkward

>>4207986
Link

>>4205964
The same way you become a good athlete. Practice. Practice more. Push your limits each time your practice. Get somebody who knows what they're doing to critique your form. Watch others who know how to do it do it. Do it for years.

Try starting at 250 - 500 words a day, and an hour of reading. Buy a Norton anthology.

>>4206479
That's a sound method. If anything, it lets you analyze your mistakes.

I would have to agree with the second part as well. It's not uncommon for writing to feel like nothing special when it comes out. My best stories came without much thought; I sat down and wrote something, that was it. When it felt forced, it often read like it was forced.

The only way to become a decent writer is to read. And then steal what's good.

>>4208248
>tfw reading more lately
>tfw i realize i've only read authors who are high on cryptic and poetic prose with shitloads of allegories
>tfw i need to be patrician as fuck to actually seize this influence
Fuck.

>>4208307
nah

mediocre authors can have patrician influences easy

>>4208081

This. If nothing else, just give the whole creative diarrhea method a shot. Then edit.

Oftentimes, it reads like it's forced when you try to follow all the rules. Learn the rules, and follow them. When you're comfortable doing that, slowly allow yourself to realize that the rules of writing--of grammar, and structure, and everything--are just guidelines. Sculpt your prose like marble, not like Lego blocks.

>>4206030
Yay!

But seriously loneliness (once it becomes solitude) hones one's observational skills.

You don't. You become a decent person who writes about his experiences in a way that people want to read.

Here's what to do:
1. Learn the craft. Study the basics of technique, whether in a class, workshop, guidebooks, or simply through close readings of your favorite books. See how sentences get put together, plots form, and ideas connect.

2. Read.. Apply what you learned from the above to everything you read or watch. Don't just follow the plot of your favorite novel, make note of how it's put together. What does the author include? What do they leave out? What questions do you have to answer as a reader? What do the authors assume you know about the world around you for the story to make sense? Why do you like some characters and hate others? Could you make it so you'd feel the reverse about these same characters? What does the book do wrong? How would you do it differently?

3. Write: Don't write well, just write. Emulate the voice of the last book you read, down to the flaws. Try re-framing stories you've read from a different characters point of view, or in a different prose style. Experiment with different plot styles, sentence styles, genres, and words. Play around and see what you like.

4. Read more. This time explore the ideas BEHIND the books that interest you. History helps a lot, as does philosophy. The classics (I'm talking Homer here) are helpful for seeing how tropes and devices originated. Read the classics of each age and see how they influence one another. Do some historical research on the era in which your favorite books were written in, including dominant schools of thought in literature, politics, technology, philosophy, etc.

5. Live. All of the above will only give you a sense of what has come before. Experience will allow you to use these tools to make the stories you own. Above all do NOT see yourself as a writer: Writers who write about writing are over-specialized obnoxious dicks. Be a human being who writes about the experience, not a writer who cloisters himself with obscure ideas disconnected from the world, or a tedious armchair politician penning manifestos disguised as prose. Until you have truly experienced something (and I mean this in the broadest possible sense: emotions, concepts, general experiences, insights) you cannot write honestly about it. Research, while important, is no substitute for experience. The core of what you write should always be rooted in your life.

>>4206030
>>4208354
This is bullshit. Solitude makes you a philosopher, not a writer. Good writing stems from empathy, and you can't practice empathy alone.

>>4208425
from understanding more than empathy, i'd say. but yes the two go together.

Step one: Get it in your head that you are an infallible genius.
Step two: Write something while thinking you're an infallible genius.
Step three: Deflect all criticism as not understanding you, clearly the work being over their head.
Step four: Enjoy success as everyone starts to believe your bullshit.

>>4205964
>How do I become a decent writer?

Write, over and over. It doesnt really matter what, just practice writing. Do exercises, go on a short drive to the store in back, then write down what happened, be as detailed as you can be, and always focus on saying something interesting and creative. As faggy as it sounds, just sit around a coffee shop, or a mall or something, with a labtop with you and just write what you're seeing, or thinking.

Read a bunch, see what other people do, but dont really try to emulate them, you wont be able to do it. Writing is a personal thing, and it really comes down to whether you are an interesting person or not.

>>4208450
It is important that you are entirely convinced in your genius. If you start reading a lot, it will plant doubt into your mind. Do NOT read a lot. The moment you stop believing your bullshit is the moment you become bullshit. People who read a lot are the same idiots who will assign ten different gimmicky theories to why your work is great, despite it being complete bullshit. You don't want to be that well-read scholarly guy who reads the other guy then explains why he's great. Just believe your bullshit, you'll have dozens of those guys straining their mental muscles, searching over their vast libraries of information inside their head to explain why you're great. They'll even feel a sense of accomplishment once they manage. You gotta take advantage of that man, so allow yourself to be as bullshittingly creative as you'd like.

>>4208457
this is the worst advice ever; you can't practice writing, like math, it is either right or wrong. you can only learn written aesthetics from copying the masters

>>4208465

and i'm sure you suck at writing.

>>4208465
>this is the worst advice ever; you can't practice writing, like math, it is either right or wrong. you can only learn written aesthetics from copying the masters
Not him, I appreciate what you are saying but I dont share it, sure you must know the rules and the basic outlines, but there is nothing truly right or wrong in art, there is good and bad but if you "copy the masters" you end up stagnated and sacrifice spontaneity for some perceived aesthetic beauty and become nothing but a copycat.

>>4208481
yes, i suck at writing off the cuff. Newsflash buddy, that is a useless skill. nobody is going to read your fucking posts and tweets and admire how well written they are; it is all about the finished product.

why would anyone waste time practicing writing off the cuff, they will just improve on writing either mundanely or pretensiously

>>4208482
aesthetics in paintings and all works of art barring modern (which isn't beautiful nor is it art) follows very real techniques for making the peace pleasing to the viewer. these aren't "the basics", they are the piece's entire construction.

>>4208488
You suck at reading too, as you answered something he didn't say.

>>4208496
it was an elaboration on the debate of practice vs study

>>4208494
>aesthetics in paintings and all works of art barring modern (which isn't beautiful nor is it art) follows very real techniques for making the peace pleasing to the viewer. these aren't "the basics", they are the piece's entire construction.
Yes they're pleasing to the eye and I would hang them from my wall, but if they can't convene feelings or make me think they are only a hallow shell. I once studied under the guide of a great artist, and he told me that if you don't develop your own style, your own whole you aren't different from a band who plays cover music, you might as well be the most talented band in the world but you're nothing but a hack.

read a lot, write a lot. check out this list too brah http://mikeshea.net/writing_tips.pdf

>>4208439
Empathy is a variety of understanding. Basic empathy is the identification of emotions in others - an understanding of external signs - greater empathy is the mirroring of these emotions when they are identified, and the greatest is the second two paired with knowledge of the emotions sources. Only the second doesn't, strictly speaking, qualify as understanding, though it requires it. And, each of these might be fairly understood as different senses of the word rather than different stages.

>>4208330
>Oftentimes, it reads like it's forced when you try to follow all the rules.
I figured out so much.
Whenever I try to follow the rules and show and no plot holes and all that, I often find my writing turning stiff.
When I write freely, though, I like reading what I wrote.

>>4208511
but, OP is having trouble with the aesthetic/readability of his writing. besides, you can have your own voice while borrowing techniques. it's like in school where one kid uses the example in his answer; that kid is obviously a hack.

>>4208425
You can absolutely experience other people's lives while alone - it's called reading