/lit/ - Literature

Your mom bouncing on my dick last night

The ability to swim in whichever portion of the aquarium you like.

>>4180509
free will is a democrat politician's greatest nightmare

>>4180528
I don't follow...

the will is free when what is willed is willed to be willed.

>>4180537
don't get all witty party politics now; the republican side is just as statist and only wants to please their old conservative minded constituents.

>>4180537

muh Ron Paul

Is there anything more depraved than an American style libertarian?

You cannot predict when a cow will lay down. Does that mean it has free will?

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/apr/12/improbable-research-cows-lying-down

>>4180509
The beautiful gift God has given us

>>4180592
lrn2predestination

No!

>>4180601

>>4180509

In a very limited way, ichi could say:


Free will, is the possibility individuals have of not complying to external behavioral and thought games, creating with that act, their own games.

In a wider scale, it is the possibility for a country, to organize and live as said country wants, rather than being organized by external entities.

>>4180601

Clever.

>>4180622

Hever.

>>4180643

Dumbfuck.

An illusion.

If I built a robot who exhibited a certain behavior based on the radioactive decay of some isotope, would it have freewill?

>>4180661
Does free will imply randomness, what if you can choose how to act from different interpretations of the external and internal causality you're amidst, because you have consciousness?

>>4180661
but your forcing it to have a form of free will so no

>>4180678
I would think free will implies stochasticism in that knowing everything about a system on a physical level does not mean you can predict its future states.

Could you elaborate the rest of your post?

>>4180702
It's just that you can actually interpret your circumstance "wrongly" and this typically leads to a change of the causality of the events you are partaking in. You can also choose to interpret it wrongly just to piss people off, or make sure your 'opponent' doesn't win, or choose to act generally irrational. You can also choose to fake a reaction or lie all these instances are a product of consciousness and leads to unknown future states.

When I talk to people who like to argue that free will is an illusion, they usually assume people always act rationally as there's only one way to react to a circumstance.

>you will never lick a qt bespectacled /lit/ femanon's feet while she reads her favourite book

>>4180763
Yeah but the 'interpretation' you choose is not chosen just because. Everything in your life has lead up to acting in that particular way at that particular moment, and to believe it could have happened any other way is just a consequence of our limited perspective.

>>4180777

>>4180509
Magic.

>>4180784
>to believe it could have happened any other way is just a consequence of our limited perspective

When I choose to lie I know what the truth is and are perfectly capable of telling the truth. I would rather say that the emergent reality of the now is the stronger part of consciousness and what memory is triggered in our brains at the moment is random, you are attributing immense power to the mystical unconscious, probably because you think the unconscious will be empirically explained in a way that eliminates free will.

I see it the other way around. I think we will be able to explain memory and perception empirically, but not decision making or other higher psychological states efficiently enough to predict outcomes without tampering with the subjects brain.

>>4180509
A contradiction. There is free will and there is not.
So far /sci/ thinks it's paranormal pseudoscience for retards.
E pur si muove

>>4180509
make me

Free intentionality.

>>4180840

/sci/ doesn't understand the difference between a thing and its microstructure.

>"Huurrr a thing has a microstructure therefore it don't exist!1"

>>4180829
You're throwing a lot out there so let address what I can.

Of course at any moment there are an infinity of things you can do in the next moment, but only one of those things will end up transpiring, which implies some choice on the subject's part.

You attribute this choice to some sort of mechanism for randomness embedded in our brains, but no such mechanism exists. And really, if one did exist, there's no evolutionary reason why for why an individual would want the "memory triggered in our brains" to be random; you wouldn't want to NOT arrive at the memory of being burnt by a fire when you are presented with a similar situation.

There's no basis for believing that behavior cannot be predicted, and I don't think we'd even have to go as far as the neurobiological level to do so.

I don't know where you're getting this 'mystical unconscious' business, but it's nothing I believe in.

>>4180840
>So far /sci/
Not only /sci/.

>>4180889
Randomness was a bad choice of word, what that I meant that I don't believe our brains to be perfectly functioning machines, sometimes you don't get the memory you needed and made a bad choice which you realize later when you rationalize the situation ("had I only thought of x I fucking knew x from before") that's what I meant by random sorry for the ambiguity.

There's difference in behavior and you don't seem to grasp what I say when I say higher psychological process you don't think about or choose to be hungry, but your decision about how to satisfy your hunger is free, in the sense you can choose to go take take-away or make some yourself or if you are ascetic you can choose to not act on it (against your inherent biological 'interest').

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>>4180988
Great example of irrational free will

>>4180988
>not writing asdf
The free will is strong in this one.
>>4180908
And you think that because...?

>>4180979
>brains to be perfectly functioning machines

And to elaborate on this I believe our brains to be evolutionary sufficient for survival and not perfect functioning. That's why we invent technology to augment it.

>>4180979
So 'forgetting' is the basis of free will? People can choose to behave in any way they like and still be operating in an ultimately deterministic way.

>There's difference in behavior and you don't seem to grasp what I say when I say higher psychological process
Yes well you're not doing a very good job of avoiding ambiguous language or defining the terms you're using.

>but your decision about how to satisfy your hunger is free
Is it? What is the physical mechanism for this supposed freedom? Are you defining freedom as whether or not something is truly random?

Also, I'll probably have to make further replies through warosu, but I'm more than willing to keep up the chat.

>>4181029
>Brain modifies the brain.
And there we have it: deterministic free will

Even though the brain doesn't know itself. free will is an idea that has taken form and doesn't know it.

>>4181029
Forgetting implies an willful act and we don't choose to forget which in some way implies determinism, I would rather say we rarely see the full picture, but we do actively choose how to act on the picture we see in the moment. I can choose not to act violently even though my anger burns inside me (free will), but sometimes I can also loose control (sorta becomes predetermined) the animal are predetermined since it acts on instinct over which it has no control (that we know of), in a way animals are honest. Humans, however, can choose not to give in to emotion and emotions to us are merely a guide (a very suggestive one) to our rationality or consciousness (the voice in our head), in this way we are dishonest to the rational endowed on us from nature that is emotion and intuition.

In this dishonesty lies our free will; our ability to trump nature.

Schopenhauer sums this up beautifully in the sentence: Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. The "do" is his free will the "will" is determined

>>4181086
>we don't choose to forget
You can actually "hack" your brain and regain memories you forgot. It's cheating, true, but it works.

>4180988

Kids are not animals, you kid wannabe.

>>4180509
Suicide

>>4180840
My grammar-nazi non free will wishes to communicate the following:

It's not E pur si muove, but Eppur si muove.

>>4181166

My poet free will wishes to communicate the following:

E(xtasy) pur(e) si muove.
>We are selling(moving) pure Extasy

>>4181166
You sure?
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_pur_si_muove!
I think both of them are accepted.

1. The ignorance of the causes that determine one's actions
2. The experience caused by 1.

/thread.

>>4181188

My grammar-nazi non free will wishes to communicate the following:

Any deviation from the official grammar, will not be tolerated. "Eppur si muove" is the correct formulation.

>>4181194
Then why have a prison system? It was all meant to happen anyway it doesn't matter if we do or don't have prisons people can't choose.

>>4181208
What, you think the prisons are actually meant to punish criminals? lol go read

>>4181194

Highly conditioned individuals tend to think of every action in an utilitarian way, therefore attributing causes to all actions, while

1.- there are actions without causes.
2.- the fact an action have a cause, does not mean said action is not free.

And

3.- Is not for you to say when the discussion is over.

>>4181151
Nope.

>>4181215
Are you saying prisons aren't a disciplinary institution? What do you need discipline and conditioning for anyways it's all predetermined?

If you work in marketing you know all about that pesky free will.

>>4181227

It's determined by the prior discipline and conditioning done in life.

The thing with criminal punishment is that regardless of if they had "free will" in the crimes they committed we still need these institutions to keep society running smoothly. They don't truly deserve the blame in some higher sense, but on a pragmatic level we have to in order to keep some order.

>>4181279
So we are all just victims of our circumstance we can't choose to do anything about anything? Why would we even evolve consciousness if there wasn't free will?

>>4181279
>not posting sweety feet

fuck you

>>4181218
how about this?
>>4181053

>>4180509
There is no 'free will' everything is predetermined. Yeah, that's about it.

>>4181242

And I guess that includes YOUR pesky free will? Or once you gain knowledge about that pesky free will the situation changes drastically? Hmmm?

>>4181298

In essence yes, I don't know what causes someone's brain to think that killing Adrian Peterson's babby is a necessary or correct action, but something did. It's probably an accumulation of every experience throughout life until that point.

>>4181362
>I don't know what causes someone's brain to think that killing Adrian Peterson's babby is a necessary or correct action

This weighs to both sides, the "what" you don't know could easily be the emergent now.

>>4180509
doesn't exist silly

>>4181332

It is so poorly written, that it is hardly understandable. "free will is an idea that has taken form and doesn't even know it".

>taken form
In which sense, what do you mean by taken form. What form? Form as in morphē? Morphē assumes physical entity, but free will doesn't seem to fit in that description. Unless you refer to form, as in eidos, but that wouldn't be form, but essence, which is a different concept.

>doesn't even know it
What doesn't even know it? Are you suggesting ideas have some sort of self-conscience? Are you implying ideas are alive in the strict sense of the word? The only way in which we could bend language to make it say this, would be to say: "since ideas are spoken by a group of individuals, which are subject to history, and life, ideas evolve as the individual does, and have the conscience the community of speakers of a language give to them". If this was true, there wouldn't be any real meaning, since over time, language would change, as all the cells of our body.

>>4180509
agency

The property of self-propulsion that is sometimes but not always random.

>>4181461
What is your problem with farts?

>>4180509
It only exists within confines of context. Ask yourself first, "What is freedom?". Then, realise that we're ultimately speaking of choices among alternatives, and that such dynamics necessarily consists of limited alternatives. This means you're indirectly forced to pick one among the available alternatives, meaning you really never had a choice.
To examplify, let's think about closing your curtains in your room. What freedoms do you have in this situation? You have the freedom to close them, keep them open or some in-betweens, but do you have the freedom to turn the curtains into a living, fire-breathing dragon? No. There's no such thing as inherent freedom as everything is ultimately governed by logic.

Why should I have to make up a definition for something that doesn't exist?

>>4182517
>Then, realise that we're ultimately speaking of choices among alternatives

There is a reason why Sartre whined about non choosers. One most essential act of freedom one can do, is saying no, as this anon suggested: >>4180601

Then, another random act of freedom, is play with significative language, by using it freely, as a kid would do, and here is another example: >>4180988

A higher way of achieving this, using language would be poetry. Because in poetry, language sprouts its originary purity. A rebellion against established sense.

>>4182537
>There is a reason why Sartre whined about non choosers. One most essential act of freedom one can do, is saying no, as this anon suggested: >>4180601
Okay, but if I acknowledge the fact that "No" is one among the logically possible alternatives, what happens then?
Only way I see it, is it's indirectly impossible to be free. I'm emphasising determinism here, by the way (you can't deviate from logic).

>>4182544

If we translated the act of saying no, to a logical world, it would be like finding a contradiction in a sequence of propositions, making the whole reasoning invalid. This is how you open a gate to escape logic.

If we translated what one achieves with poetry, or arts of the kind, it would be like designing a whole new language, by changing it's reference, and over time by inventing new words. This is how you open another gate to escape logic.

If we translated what one achieves by playing with letters liek a kiddo, it would be like random acts of senseless speech. Isn't that a part of what freedom is? It's essential impredictibility?

>>4182575
>Old man of questionable reputation wearing rags and no shoes.
>Tells you about neuroscience and consciousness.
Hobos sure have increased their repertoire these days.

>>4182732
Truer than you'd think

A will that is unaffected by any external force

>>4182991
so, a non-existant one then?

>>4180509
no

>>4182575
Source plox.

a man forced to play with an etcha-sketch for eternity, unaware of the limited amount of forms he can etcha-sketch, but in turn delighted and horrified to be etcha-sketching nonetheless.

>>4182991
this. simple.
How are you niggers not zen with the fact that sufficient randomness in external occurrence, perception, and neuroreactivity, coupled with determining actions whether logical or not puts us on the same footing as any external complex system, which is to say complex enough to act disregarding external or internally shaping forces.