/lit/ - Literature

verlaine. because he's not baudelaire.

Shakespeare

>>4125615
3/4 of Verlaine's stuff is absolute shit. Read his Poèmes Saturniens, most of it is cringe worthy or just bad imitations of what was popular back then. Of course, there are sudden cries of genius in his works, but they are rare.

>>4125612
>>4125615

>not Rimbaud

Jesus is the greatest poet; His love is all you need, son.

>>4125612
french posters are the worst. all they do is complain about american literature.

>>4125629
No one complains about american literature. It's the least pretentious one; it's refreshing, you can read it on a lazy summer afternoon without having to think too hard about what you're reading; it just flows gently.

What kind of literature-hating cretin tries to rank poetry and poems.

>>4125636
>greatest
>rank

There's no ranking if there's only one

>>4125612
Those people who write limericks and slang in public toilets.

>>4125628
The Bible got redundant pretty fast, from a stylistic point of view.

>>4125645
>reading French bullshit edition
>not KJV

>>4125619
Any other answer seems insincere.

>If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well
It were done quickly. If the assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We’d jump the life to come. But in these cases
We still have judgment here, that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague th' inventor: this even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poisoned chalice
To our own lips. He’s here in double trust:
First, as I am his kinsman and his subject,
Strong both against the deed; then, as his host,
Who should against his murderer shut the door,
Not bear the knife myself. Besides, this Duncan
Hath borne his faculties so meek, hath been
So clear in his great office, that his virtues
Will plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against
The deep damnation of his taking-off;
And pity, like a naked newborn babe,
Striding the blast, or heaven’s cherubim, horsed
Upon the sightless couriers of the air,
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
That tears shall drown the wind. I have no spur
To prick the sides of my intent, but only
Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself
And falls on th' other.

fuck off Kasuga-kun

>>4125780
Is that a tripfag? Never heard of them

>>4125612
This nigga can't be serious. Even Poe's brash poetry is superior to that of this hack. If you want French modernist poetry grab Rimbaud.

>>4125791
>Rimbaud
>modernist

>>4125645
The books are all written by different people, so ideally all the books would read with a different voice.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of translations read with the same voice all the way through. Including the KJV (even though it is well written).

The Voice translation is supposed to have different styles from book to book, but I haven't read it yet.

>>4125800
What?

>>4125690
I wish I understood wtf Shakespeare was talking about...

Can anyone recommend a good way to understand Shakespeare?

>>4125815
Macbeth is talking to himself, thinking about how he is going to kill the king.

The lines that catch me the most are

Besides, this Duncan
Hath borne his faculties so meek, hath been
So clear in his great office, that his virtues
Will plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against
The deep damnation of his taking-off;
And pity, like a naked newborn babe,
Striding the blast, or heaven’s cherubim, horsed
Upon the sightless couriers of the air,
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
That tears shall drown the wind. I have no spur
To prick the sides of my intent, but only
Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself
And falls on th' other.


Re-read it multiple times, struggle with it, try to understand what he is saying. After that, stand in awe at how immensely powerful and beautiful his language is

>horsed upon the sightless couries of the air
>shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
>that tears shall drown the wind

There is, alternatively, this:

http://nfs.sparknotes.com/macbeth/page_40.html

>>4125823
So it would definitely be best to read a summary of the actions before reading the actual play. At least then I would know what is going on.

>>4125860
If you think that would help, sure. It's possible to do it without that though. But whatever works best for you.

>>4125815
>>4125860

It's also important to realize what it is you're reading. I know that sounds dumb. But sometimes you're reading Shakespeare and all of the sudden he's talking about angels and Jove and Mars and all these Greek gods and you're just like, what the heck is going on right now?

You have to consciously realize when a metaphor, simile, or other rhetorical device begins to happen in order to keep track of the plot and the dialogue of the characters. Once you've gotten recognizing things like that, he becomes a lot easier. It's still a little difficult to read but you'll understand a lot more.

>>4125690
>>4125823

I like your style, sir.

>>4125621
Are you kidding? Poemes Saturniens is infinitely better than the crap that is Fleur du Mal. And HE was the one who popularized the fatalist, overdramatic born under the wrong star poet.

I hardly know any poets outside of the ones everyone does (Frost, Dickenson, Bukowski, Plath, etc). Where would I go to learn of some?

>>4125612
did baudelaire just graduate college

>>4125961
start with the greeks

>>4125948
What?

This http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/%C3%80_une_femme is not good poetry.

This http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Soleils_couchants is good poetry.

As I said, there are momentary lapses of genius in Verlaine's poetry, but they are not as common as in Baudelaire's or Rimbaud's works.

>tallis
>le yawn

the predictable and cliched pickings of the garden variety french child molester..

tallis you have 3 seconds to justify your continued existence

>>4126043
Just in that collection Mon Reve Familier, Nevermore, Un Dahlia are great poems on par with the crap that Rimbaud wrote.

Why not try reading more of his poetry instead of basing your ill-informed judgement on one book he wrote. Parallement, Sagesse and others are much richer volumes than anything Baudelaire or Rimbaud could ever dream of.

>>4126053
"One more moment, Mr. Executioner, I beg you!"

>>4125815

Watch the plays. That's how they're meant to be enjoyed. Find a production that sticks fairly close to the text (which is oddly difficult because Shakespeare is so old and overdone everyone tries to take liberties).

Good productions for beginners are also those that give obvious visual cues as to what is being said. For example, I wouldn't recommend something like the Great Performances version of Macbeth (which Patrick Steward) because despite being fairly decent it's also very hammed up and a beginner may miss the point of several scenes.

>>4126056
Bullshit. Verlaine spent most of his talent imitating what was popular in his times and writing,as >>4126053 unwittingly pointed out, "the predictable and cliched pickings of the garden variety french child molester"; precious, mannered poetry is a common trait of Verlaine's lesser quality poems.

On the other hand, Baudelaire, outside of his "Paradis Artificiels", never wrote something inferior to at least Verlaine's average poems.

Rimbaud was far superior to Verlaine. The fact that you might not like some of his more "avant-garde" poems does not mean that they are not of quality - Verlaine wrote plenty of unoriginal tripe while Rimbaud was concerned with the pure, brutal, subjective expression of the self - je est autre - in an always honest, stripped down manner.

Verlaine was corrupted by the establishment until he met Rimbaud. He wrote his best poems in his youth and after meeting him; I do not deny that he had great talent, but he wasted some of it during a good period of his life; these poems should have been burned, on the sake of his memory.

Les Fleurs du Mal is absolute genius, but I do not wish to compare it with Verlaine's Poèmes Saturniens, which were not written in the same intent: where Baudelaire intended to write a certain quantity of poems, that is extracting beauty out of the horrible - a sublimation of the Beautiful, Verlaine didn't manage to fully turn his Poèmes Saturniens into a perfectly coherent whole.

Of course, his Poèmes Saturniens remain his magnum opus, but we have to admit that for every poem making you sigh "hats off gentlemen, a true genius", three others make you yawn.

Borges

>>4126085
Before I'm accused of implying the "Paradis Artificiels" are poems, I wish to make it clear that I never meant to imply such a thing; prose simply didn't suit Baudelaire.

>>4126067
>That's how they're meant to be enjoyed.
>muh conventional wisdom

shut up

>>4126097

wut?

>>4125612
But it's Homer.

>>4125612
who is the biggest faggot and why is it op?

flaubert's correspondences is the best thing written in french

>>4125612

Go away Kasuga.

>tfw in a year I'll fully know French and finally be able to read the world's greatest poet

>>4127261
Why are people calling Tallis that? Is it an old name?

>>4127269
top kek

Il faut que vous soyez bien naïf pour penser que vous réussirez à vous hisser à de tels sommets en moins d'un an.

>>4127279
I don't know what you just said, but you underestimate my power.

>>4127279
Sucer mon pénis, monsieur.

>>4127305
infinitive != imperative

>>4127324
Pardon, monsieur. Je suis malade.

It's obviously Novalis

It would be easiest to make the case for Shakespeare, though I personally hold no "best poet" in my mind. Just several poets I greatly enjoy.

>>4125791
lol what am i even reading
Baudelaire reinvented French poetry, Rimbaud called him "the true god".
Also, Baudelaire was at the origins of modernist, you mang

>>4127342
Définitivement tu as encore un grand chemin à parcourir

>>4127464
Définitivement ne s'emploie pas comme ça, débile.

>>4127461
Seriously. If anything, Baudelaire improves upon Poe

>>4127464
Bien sur, bien sur...

>>4127469
Si tu veux continuer à discuter sur l'emploi des mots, comme un de ces insupportables flics de la grammaire, vas-y, perds ton temps, mais je vais pas perdre le mien. Je m'en fous absolument.
Tu ferais mieux de parler de la poésie de Baudelaire ou Rimbaud, afin d'apporter qqchose à la discussion, au lieux d'en y ajouter des insultes.

>>4127508
Voici quelque chose qui rajouterait à la discussion: Rimbaud et Baudelaire savaient sans doute écrire le mot "emploi" et "au lieu de"

>>4127477
No. Baudelaire made Poe worthwhile.

>>4127528
Je suis d'accord: Rimbaud et Baudelaire sauraient sans doute comment utiliser le verbe "rajouter", et que "au lieu de" est un locution adverbiale, et non pas un mot.

Que peux tu me dire du poème "Le dormeur du val"?

>>4127569
Donc tu n'es pas d'accord, puisque tu as l'air de tomber d'accord avec quelque chose que je n'ai pas dit.
Problème avec l'ironie?

Ce que je pense du poème le plus connu de rimbaud ne te concerne pas

>>4127569
(je suis pas ton interlocuteur)
Mec sérieusement Le Dormeur du Val on l'a tous appris par cœur en CM2 et étudié en seconde, t'aurais pas pu choisir mieux ?

>>4127365
:)

>>4127508
>>4127528
>>4127569
>>4127579
Pompez-moi le dard.

>>4127579
En fait, ça nous concerne tout particulièrement.

>>4127581
Alors vous deux, vous pensez quoi de

Depuis huit jours, j'avais déchiré mes bottines
Aux cailloux des chemins. J'entrais à Charleroi.
- Au Cabaret-Vert : je demandai des tartines
De beurre et du jambon qui fût à moitié froid.

Bienheureux, j'allongeai les jambes sous la table
Verte : je contemplai les sujets très naïfs
De la tapisserie. - Et ce fut adorable,
Quand la fille aux tétons énormes, aux yeux vifs,

- Celle-là, ce n'est pas un baiser qui l'épeure ! -
Rieuse, m'apporta des tartines de beurre,
Du jambon tiède, dans un plat colorié,

Du jambon rose et blanc parfumé d'une gousse
D'ail, - et m'emplit la chope immense, avec sa mousse
Que dorait un rayon de soleil arriéré.

>>4127581
Ouais, t'as raison, mais c'était pour s'amuser. T'as vu quand même la réponse de l'autre type? Il délire.

I'm reading Les Fleurs du mal right now and there are honestly a bunch of poems I don't like.

>>4127598
Je pense qu'à la manière des impressionnistes, Rimbaud fixe un instant privilégié. Peintres et poète diffèrent, cependant, les premiers sentent l'extrême fugacité de l'instant, le second s'y installe de façon à en sentir la plénitude et à le prolonger.

Et aussi qu'il a dû se taper la serveuse après.

>>4127626
Are you reading it in French?

>>4127627
Mmh, intéressant. Il semble en effet assez clair que le but poursuivi par Rimbaud était l'expression d'une pure subjectivité poétique, tout comme le but des peintres impressionnistes était la subjectivité picturale, seulement Rimbaud aura eu l'intellect de comprendre que la restitution du réel dans le poétique était impossible, alors, ou de vivre à mentir que de vivre à vendre des armes...

>>4127647
Excuse-moi, mais ça veut rien dire, "une pure subjectivité poétique".

Ce que j'aime vraiment dans ce poème (parce que tout à l'heure j'ai fait que recopier la note de mon édition Poésie Gallimard pour voir comment tu réagirais), c'est que ce sont des vers qui se lisent comme de la prose. Et c'est extrêmement important parce qu'il essaie vraiment de "cristalliser", d' "immortaliser" (c'est un peu cliché comme verbes, désolé) une scène complètement prosaïque, avec des mots également prosaïques, mais qui détienne un pouvoir évocateur aussi puissant qu'une métaphore ampoulée. C'est de la poésie qui ne se prend pas trop au sérieux, quoi.

>>4127676
>Excuse-moi, mais ça veut rien dire, "une pure subjectivité poétique".
Rimbaud refuse de céder à la facilité de compréhension la subjectivité, le "personnel" de son énonciation.

>mais qui détienne un pouvoir évocateur aussi puissant qu'une métaphore ampoulée.
Qui en détiennent pour Rimbaud. C'est une tentative de restitution du réel par le langage poétique et sa différance (je est autre), laquelle est nécessairement impossible; alors, ou de vivre à mentir que de vivre à vendre des armes...

this tallis guy is french canadian

he is is a QUEBECER

hide his threads

>>4127693
??

>implying you're not some ontarian scum

>>4127695
le francais canadien sonne tres mal

c'est de la merde

>céder à la facilité de compréhension la subjectivité, le "personnel" de son énonciation
Je comprends encore moins, et ta syntaxe n'aide pas.

Le reste, c'est pire.

i've read richard howard translation. felt nothing.

>>4127706
Ma syntaxe est parfaite, réellement parfaite.
Qu'on me prouve le contraire.

Quant au reste, qu'on se jette aux autodafés de calcul intégral pour ce qu'on n'en connaît le langage.

>>4127712
"qu'on se jette aux autodafés de calcul intégral pour ce qu'on n'en connaît le langage."

Non mais sérieusement c'est du charabia ce que tu écris.

>>4127720
Quant au reste, qu'on se jette aux autodafés de calcul intégral pour ce qu'on n'en connaît le langage.

Quant au reste, qu'on se précipite aux autodafés de calcul intégral pour ce qu'on n'en connaît le langage.


Quant au reste, qu'on se précipite aux autodafés de calcul intégral parce que on n'en connaît le langage.

Quant au reste, qu'on se précipite aux autodafés de calcul intégral parce que on n'en comprend pas le langage.


Quant au reste, qu'on se précipite aux autodafés de calcul intégral parce que on ne comprend pas le langage mathématique qu'ils utilisent.

Quant au reste, ce qu'on ne comprend pas, ne peut qu'avoir tort.

Vous développez en finesse mon commentaire avec votre "charabia ce que tu écris".

>>4125621
if verlaine had been bad, rimbaud would've never let him stick it in his arse.

Tallis, how do you think Rimbaud compares to Baudelaire?

>>4127759
Do I?

>>4125612
I feel like i can understand what girls mean by "creepy-looking" when i look at pictures of baudelaire.

he was probably a nice, harmless guy though.

>>4129983
He does look a bit... "intense"

>>4126053
As astonishing as it sounds like, outside America you can have 16 year old girlfriends without getting butt-raped in jail.

it's t s eliot because it sounds great and looks great and is mysterious enough to pick apart endlessly but vivid enough to be immediately engaging and is packed to the rafters with clever and deep imagery and references and feelings and rings true on every level and doesn't patronise its readers but isn't elitist and is just a pleasure to read or hear no matter how much or how little you understand

>ctrl+f
>"Keats"
>0 of 0

Now I remember why I stopped coming to this shit board.

Nerval.
Point final.

King David

>>4130080
Do you honestly think Keats is the best poet ever?

And then you attempt to dismiss the board as being beneath you, top lel

morrison because of his divine ability

Baudelaire because of imagery, symbolism and spleen

>>4130110
Nerval is basically the French equivalent of Jamba Juice.

>>4127647
no translated, I would like to be able to read it in the original French but I don't have the time to learn a whole language for the sake of poetry

Has anyone ever read any of Henri Michaux's poetry in french? I'm thinking if learning the language just for it.

I really like Dylan Thomas.

Other than that I'd say Emily Dickinson or William Blake. I tried to get into Sylvia Plath but I couldn't really understand any of iy.

I don't know my taste is probably extremely entry level compared to everyone else's here.

>>4125791
>""By modernite I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable."

Baudelaire literally defined modernism.

>>4127647
I'm reading a bilingual parallel text and it still doesn't make much of a difference. That said, there are still a bunch I really like.

>>4129983
>he was probably a nice, harmless guy though.
>probably

He sent intense fucking poems to married women. He did like cats though.

>>4130080
>>4130151

Keats is, at the very least, at the top of the Romantics. It seems cliche to say he was the greatest, but that's not far off.

That's not Rimbaud

If I have seen further it has been by standing upon the shoulders of giants.

I have to agree that no mention of Keats is...odd.

>>4130339
Indeed. Keats' aesthetic visions are far superior to the Romantic era. His use of language and philosophical views (negative capability, among others) are the reasons why he is among the best poets.

Also Tallis pls stop saying nonsense about Rimbaud.
Il n'y a aucune raison de discutailler. Rimbaud se lit et se chuchote, par pitié laissons les théories à d'autres.

wheres my rilke at

The greatest poet of all time.

Those who disagree simply haven't spent enough time with his work.

>>4130110

>nerval
>the greatest

fuck off you hipster

>>4130363
ur boyfren iz prolly up ur arse m80

>>4130350
>Indeed. Keats' aesthetic visions are far superior to the Romantic era. His use of language and philosophical views (negative capability, among others) are the reasons why he is among the best poets.

1/2

Reading the letters of Keats is impossible not to feel that a great mind, a great promise as a poet and writer, was lost with his premature death. I think if he did not died prematurely of tuberculosis he would have become one of the greatest poets of all time. He would probably be the greatest poet of the English language after Shakespeare (I say this because I think the metaphor is the greatest skill a poet have, and that work which Keats had presented until the date of his death had not the signs of the same metaphorical creativity and exuberance that Shakespeare presented - nobody ever had such exuberance at the same level, in any age or country: Shakespeare is a single case).

But Keats had a maturity far superior to the other romantic poets, or rather: his maturity was vastly superior to most of the poets of the world. He had no philosophical beliefs or personal truths that he would never sacrifice; no - for him all philosophies and worldviews (no matter how different from each other and contradictory) could be employed as poetic material. As he said, the true poet absorbs everything, but always without "being" something; it is a blank screen, which can display any colors and shapes. For me this is one of the most beautiful and wise excerpts of poetic criticism that have ever been made (it’s from one of Keats letters):

>>4130399

2/2

(Keats letter)

>As to the poetical Character itself (I mean that sort of which, if I am any thing, I am a Member; that sort distinguished from the wordsworthian or egotistical sublime; which is a thing per se and stands alone) it is not itself - it has no self - it is every thing and nothing - It has no character - it enjoys light and shade; it lives in gusto, be it foul or fair, high or low, rich or poor, mean or elevated - It has as much delight in conceiving an Iago as an Imogen. What shocks the virtuous philosopher, delights the camelion Poet. It does no harm from its relish of the dark side of things any more than from its taste for the bright one; because they both end in speculation. A Poet is the most unpoetical of any thing in existence; because he has no Identity - he is continually in for - and filling some other Body - The Sun, the Moon, the Sea and Men and Women who are creatures of impulse are poetical and have about them an unchangeable attribute - the poet has none; no identity - he is certainly the most unpoetical of all God's Creatures. If then he has no self, and if I am a Poet, where is the Wonder that I should say I would write no more? Might I not at that very instant have been cogitating on the Characters of Saturn and Ops? It is a wretched thing to confess; but is a very fact that not one word I ever utter can be taken for granted as an opinion growing out of my identical nature - how can it, when I have no nature? When I am in a room with People if I ever am free from speculating on creations of my own brain, then not myself goes home to myself: but the identity of every one in the room begins so to press upon me that I am in a very little time annihilated - not only among Men; it would be the same in a Nursery of children: I know not whether I make myself wholly understood: I hope enough so to let you see that no despondence is to be placed on what I said that day.

>>4125634
American lit is always try hard bullshit

I've read a fair amount of poetry in the last month and my favorite poet so far is William Blake. My least favorite is W.W, but nonetheless I still haven't read some of the greatest including Frost so I've no where near yet.

>>4125612
Baudelaire was pretty good,
but never stood still and was a tree amid the wood, op

>>4125612

>Beaudelaire
>Verlaine
>Rimbaud

Do you even Nelligan /lit/?

I'm really enjoying the selected poems by Don Paterson at the moment.

I'm not sure if he is 'the greatest poet ever'.... but who cares?

>>4125948
>Les Fleurs du Mal
>crap

>>4126093
lol Borges sucks at poetry
he's good at short stories not poetry

Keats

>>4130036
The promised land.

>>4130420
>American lit
>tryhard

Are you joking?