/lit/ - Literature

>>4061805
How is anime not included under the umbrella of television? And why is music only "sometimes" equal.

I don't like you.

A common argument is that visual/aural media is passive, but literature requires effort. There are obviously great works of art in every genre, and I do more than read books, but you'd be surprised how many people don't have to stamina to read books.

>>4061811
I actually wanted to list 'cartoons' (since its set of tools is different from movies) but I forgot about that. I usually list cartoons and anime separately just because they are very different in their cliches and rules and I wanted to underline that.
I said music, because for me it serves mostly a different purpose and is not usually a story-telling medium (unlike everything else I've listed), but can sometimes be used that way and is still as important nonetheless.

>>4061813
This. I for example can't find enough motivation to read fiction. I'm always feeling like I'm wasting my time. I can easily watch any type of film, from the blockbusters to artistic and thought-provoking movies, and yet I can only enjoy reading non-fiction. I fucking hate fiction in the written form, go figure.

>>4061805
because 50% of people who read books primarily are sorta smart, whereas about 10% of people who watch movies primarily are sorta smart, and 0% of people who consider video games their primary artistic engagement are sorta smart.

all media have great works, but it's easier to watch a bad movie than it is to read a bad book, so these stereotypes develop.

and there's nothing wrong with specializing, every movie watched is 100 pages you didn't read, and vice versa. if you like one better, you really should be spending more time on it.

finally, if you're actually smart, people will figure it out, and if you aren't, ditto, so don't worry about it

>>4061813
I don't have the stamina to watch movies sometimes actually...
And if I am tired from reading I can just put the book away for sometime, while with a movie it'll ruin the experience since it's made to be watched in one go.

butthurt, pls go

nothing about a medium's "age" makes it worse or better than another

you can have films, paintings, etc. as great as some literature

>if a person says he 'only watches movies' or 'only plays games'

because those are completely passive activities and almost universally solely for entertainment. reading and literature are neither: reading stimulates imagination and grows your intellect and breadth of experience, while literature is held as great for its philosophical depth, commentary on our shared existence, reflection of societal and cultural ideals, as well as its aesthetic value.

Take two people: one who solely plays pokemon, and one who solely reads Proust, and tell me which becomes a better person for it.

>>4061821
What do you usually read? I'm just curious.

>>4061805
>Sturgeon's Law
/thread

>>4061828
Not him, but I read books for entertainment. Yes, they do stimulate if they have some idea in them beyond mindless fun, but so do many movies, not really sure why you think that. If there are useful thoughts at all - then it does stimulate your intellect, even with visuals.
I like both movies and books equally.

>>4061829
Biographies, mainly books about history. I take reading as something to learn instead of something to enjoy. Doesn't mean I can't read some prose from time to time, but I can see how some people on /lit/ enjoy it way more than I do.

>>4061848
*should also add that I don't consider fiction empty in terms of message/learning, just that I find it distracting that I have to go through the story to find it, I get bored and can't enjoy it properly.

>>4061848
Can you recommend something on History? World history, England and American history.
And maybe something centered around the 20th century.
I would just read some textbooks, but I don't trust the ones where I am from.
Sorry if it comes off as sudden and improper.

>>4061822
smart and knowledgeable are 2 different things though
yeah if you're knowledgeable you have a higher chance of being smart, but these are not that dependent on each other

>>4061853
No problem bro. Actually I'm interested in history books because I chose the scientific path and stopped having history class by 9th grade, so I'm almost clueless about modern history.
I started with HG Wells' A Short History of the World, which gave me a pretty good start. I am also reading The Divine Within by Huxley, it's a compilation of about 30 essays on a lot of topics, mainly religion and the human condition. I can't help you on England and American history specifically though, I'm not a native.

>>4061874
I am not a native too actually, just was interested since I am studying the language and wanted to know more.
Still thanks, I'll give these a try.

>>4061805
Proactive thinking. There is probably a better word for it, but reading is deliberate. It takes effort and focus to effectively read a book, as you have to analyze and comprehend the information presented, as well as come to understand what information is important, and how that information fits. That builds critical thinking ability, as well as the ability to analyze and comprehend things. It literally exercises your mind.

An example would be your vocabulary. People who read literature tend to have larger vocabularies. Its because the are deliberately reading, analyzing, and comprehending the text. The meaning of those words stay with them because of that.

Of course, you have to actually want to read the text, and focus on it as you do so.


You rarely get that out of TV, movies, and music; never in the quantity and quality of literature.

>>4061877
Anytime anon.

>>4061805
In my opinion: All mediums are inherently equal, but some utilize their artistic capabilities less than others. Video games, for instance, have great potential, but because of the surrounding culture and industry almost every video game released is pleb trash, to the point at which Bioshock Infinite is considered an intelligent game.

Also, as has been pointed out, experiencing most other mediums is passive, whereas books require one to exert effort.

>>4061924
Couldn't agree more.

death of le author etc

also textbooks and uni fees

>>4062046
Hey man, your nose's sticking out.
Just lettin' you know

>>4061805

>TV

>>4061817

Just call it animation you prude.

I really enjoy getting lost in a story. For some reason, the characters in books hold a much higher place in my heart than ones in movies or comics. They mean much more to me

>>4062054
sorry

Good video games aren't passive. That's just a dumb thing to say. I'm not saying that they aren't shit, though.

video games are more like a sport are they not? Unless you play for story, in which case, it's more of an interactive experience than a "game". (like the old bionicle Mata Nui game, that thing's classic!)

>>4061805
>Books, movies, TV series, animation, games... Hell, even anime or sometimes music.
>games and anime

Jesus Christ. Grow up.

You obviously don't read. The difference is substance and scope - Orson Welles said you could fit the message of most films on a pinhead. Most films cover about the ground a very short novella might - a longer novel, of around 500 pages, would take something the length of a TV series to cover HOWEVER each medium has an advantage over the other, and literature is still much more efficient at covering ground and getting a point across. What a book might say in a paragraph could take a whole episode of a TV show to cover in this day and age of realistic dialogue - it would be much easier in a play or a film of the ilk of Peter Greenaway or Ken Russel.

>>4062075
So good video games are shit?

>>4062082
It's funny how you specifically green-texted anime, but didn't greentext animation or TV series.

does /lit/ like anime based on novels?

>>4062094
Those two were the most objectionable. Animation has the potential to equal film; I couldn't write it off. There have been some amazing feats of the genre.

Anime, however, is 99% trash and games are at their highest point, an equivalent to B-Movies.

>>4061805
>something the other lacks, its own strength. (Now whether this i
Because reading involves brain activity more than any of those you mention.

>>4062109
Same person.

That said, I was highlighting everything. To even compare different media is an ac of colossal stupidity.

>>4062109
anime is animation dude

>>4062109
Nice generalizations.
I hate moeshit and most anime too and I think you're biased

>>4062083
I don't know. All I do is play video games and watch anime, sometimes, so I'm not qualified to make that judgement. I (think I) know that what people with taste, for video games, refer to as good, for video games, is active.

While all I do is play video games and occasionally watch anime, I recognize that (because people smarter than me say so), they are shit.
I want to be intelligent and grow up (although I can't pinpoint why), but I am so scared and intimidated by intellectual things. I want to be able to recognize shit for myself, instead of relying on others to label something as shit, even though that will make me hate things I formerly loved.
Can someone help me get started on my way? I have no idea what to do, and I didn't grow up with high culture intellectual stuff like some people, so I'm at a loss. Please?

>>4062109
>western animation better than anime
boku no white piggu

>>4062104
isn't there a fleurs du mal anime or something?

>>4062109
Try to widen your horizons. All forms of art have some great works.
Besides, anime should go under TV-series. Don't let the weeaboos fool you.

Pic is OP.

>I get my smarts from games and anime! Fuck books and their snobbish tyranny just because they're the older medium!!!!

>>4062115
All anime is animation, but not all animation is anime.

I haven't implied that all animation is worthless - I've said there have been some amazing feats of the genre/medium. Anime, however, has only one or two exceptions to its otherwise anemic cultural value.

>>4062126
I said I like books, I was just wondering why everything else is considered so much worse. I never ever said the books were worse than any other medium.
Anyway, thanks for the answers, I guess they do make sense. Still I think people should have a more all-round experience, or at least try to, there is good stuff everywhere.

>>4062127
What are even doing in /lit/?

>>4062139
Some kind of masochism? Coming here only ever makes me feel like shit. It's horrible but I can't stop it.
But my request still stands, I really do want to be better.

>>4062128
>isn't there a fleurs du mal anime or something?

There's an anime called Flowers of Evil but it's shit (compared to the manga at least) and it's also not an adaption of Le Fleurs du Mal or anything the MC just has a weird sperglord love for Baudelaire.

Uchouten Kazoku is really good though, it's based on a book by the same author as the book Tatami Galaxy was based on, I dunno if you've seen that.

>>4062129
>widen your horizons.
>In a thread about a guy who hates literature

I read all sorts of fiction and non-fiction, I've seen thousands of films, I listen to a lot of music and I actually play games (but I'm not under the illusion they're some superior art-form).

Anime and games are weak art-forms that just cannot compete with literature and (non-blockbuster) film.

Anime might be able to compete if the writers read books rather than using manga and movies as their inspiration. Miyazaki and maybe Katsuhiro Otomo are the only ones that transcend their shit genre.

I've always valued literature for its elaboration of ideas and, to quote one anon here, its 'scope and substance'

I've always viewed film as a person/group's ability to visualise ideas and frame them through things that exist (or reality which is then manipulated for effect)

I've always viewed animation as the above but with more emphasis on the look (which is naturally problematic when trying to get an audience to feel as if what is reflected on screen exists within reality and may very well be linked to the fantasy ideas that animation goes for)

I've always thought TV is a shit because the constrains of the studio is limiting and poisonous to the art-form but consider that there to be nothing different between it and film inherently as it is the same dang thing

I've always viewed video-games as being able to construct a world and allow the player to immerse themselves in it pertaining to constructed rules due to technical limitations


All in all, they are all different art-forms and can do different things. Literature is the medium which is able to house the most substance, not in any individual cases but just as a rule of thumb.

>>4062144
then find a book and get out of here
you can talk all you want about trying to be smart, but it's not worth a shit if you don't make an effort

i'd recommend catch-22 - it's not hard to read but it's got solid themes that'll make you think to some degree - very good beginner book

>>4062144
What do you mean by 'intelligent' or 'growing up'?
Just determine your taste (I mean, a specific genre or tropes at least) and pick anything that might interest you, there is a book recommendation list and everything.
Although, while reading a lot of books can help your brain not melt, it doesn't make you smarter directly, just more knowledgeable and these two are different things.

Anyway, don't read because you feel you 'should by now', read because you found something interesting for you, like with games or anime.
If you rarely read at all, start with Visual Novels, dialog-heavy games and stuff like that, since it's your thing, it'll at least help you get accustomed to and like pure text. Then get to books after a while.

>>4062151
>genre
Animation is a medium and Japan is a country. "Anime" as it's usually defined in the west (animated works from Japan) isn't a genre any more than "American movies" or "books from England" is a genre.

>>4062162
Totally pedantic. Here I called it a genre/medium. It could be viewed as a genre under the umbrella of anime:
>>4062133
>I haven't implied that all animation is worthless - I've said there have been some amazing feats of the genre/medium. Anime, however, has only one or two exceptions to its otherwise anemic cultural value.

>>4062155
I'm sorry. I am very scared of things and so don't put forth much effort at anything. Every time I'm told to just "do it", like you said, I am at a loss.
I have already read Catch-22 and liked it, but most of it probably went over my head. I should read it again.

>>4062161
>What do you mean by 'intelligent' or 'growing up'?
Well, lots of people think anime and video games are for children and stunted manchildren, so if I were intelligent and grown up I would not like them.
I fear that even if I do read intelligent literature, I will not develop the skills necessary to be intelligent about reading.

>>4062171
Sounds like you just want to appear 'smart' (which isn't actually a thing). Starting reading just because people shit on you isn't a good reason to do something you just don't like.

And if you DO want to read, don't think about 'how many skills' you have or stuff like that. Just read and enjoy the plot. Don't rush.

>>4062171
>I have already read Catch-22 and liked it, but most of it probably went over my head. I should read it again.

That's not something to worry about. Just read it again. Lots of stuff will go over all kinds of people's heads as they might not have an in=depth knowledge of the time it was written.

Take for instance me: In college I had to read Ulysses by James Joyce. I'm Irish and still a tonne of that went over my head. The lectures knew this would be the case for us all, though, so they told us to read it with the "bloomsday reader" which basically is a posh version of Cliffnotes. As long as you don't ONLY read the bloomsday book, you'll be doing well.

Anyway, start small. Read some Hemmingway, or look for a writer that might appeal to your tastes like Pynchon or Palahniuk.

>>4062127

>Can someone help me get started on my way? I have no idea what to do, and I didn't grow up with high culture intellectual stuff like some people, so I'm at a loss. Please?

Check out some recommendations people post here.

> I want to be able to recognize shit for myself, instead of relying on others

People pass information to one another so ignoring what they have to offer is silly but so is agreeing with everything anybody else says. It's up to you to critical analyse what you agree with and what you don't agree with and then take it from there.

This is something which is reflected in the OP's picture when the teacher asserts that the curtains convey important specific information. We'd make fun of that because there's no objective proof to it and to assert that it is undeniably true is a problem. You can only acknowledge that some people may find it to be an aspect of the author's underlying unconscious which draws to something even the author does not know. Those people will then have to draw conclusions for their argument through subjective means to be listened to. Other people may assert this is hog-wash and the curtains being blue means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

>>4062182
>Starting reading just because people shit on you isn't a good reason to do something you just don't like.
It's not that I don't like it, I just like the other things more. There is so much well-founded shitting on those things, that I feel I must read to be a good person, not just to "appear smart".
I was once told that I already have a broken perspective on this stuff, and can't be helped.
I feel like I must appreciate and partake exclusively in intellectual grown-up things in order to be a worthy human being.

>>4062188
>pynchon
That would be far too over my head. For someone new to this, would classic sci-fi be a good place to get into reading? Not hard or high culture, but still has a bit of literary merit?

>>4062195
I don't want to be wrong, and I especially don't want to be wrong and think I am right.

>>4062203
>I don't want to be wrong, and I especially don't want to be wrong and think I am right.
Most of such things are subjective, it's not like you're solving mathematical problems.

>>4062213
Yeah, but then people, even those that advocate subjectivity, ignore it and act like everything is objective and make me feel like shit because I can't ever defend my position against them because I am not smart enough.

>>4062216
It's probably not because you are not 'smart' enough, but because you are not confident enough or maybe has some mental deficiency like depression or something.
It may be an actual root of your problems so first try to work on that, not on games and anime. After that you'll feel much better about yourself and it will be easier to jump into new things.

>>4062224
crap those mistakes
I need to go to sleep

>>4062203

>I don't want to be wrong

I want to re-assure you and tell you that you can't be wrong but it's not necessary because because what you get out of reading isn't right or wrong.

If you enjoy reading then go for it. If you enjoy games and anime then do that instead. If you want to be right (objectively speaking) then learn something like computer coding.

>>4062226

Let's go to bed, Tao.

>>4062203
>would classic sci-fi be a good place to get into reading?
Yeah, definitely. Take your pick from any top 50 list out there. Philip K Dick is great fun at times.

>>4062224
>mental deficiency like depression

Wow, that's such an ignorant way of describing depression.

>>4062224
>>4062227
I have no confidence and might have depression.
I really would like to be able to read and continue my plebeian hobbies, but they are most likely incompatible.

>>4062230
Thank you.

>>4062233
I have no energy or passion and feel sad all the time. Is that depression, and how can I fix it?

sage because this has turned into a self help thread

>>4062236
start eating healthy and maybe do some sports (especially if you're fat)
if you're the kind that drinks soda and that shit and go and drink only mineral water from now on (at least for the time being)
if you have problems with work/studies, start organizing your stuff (even just things in your room, your bed, etc.) and make some sort of a schedule and keep to it
this would be a nice way to start

>>4062240
I only drink water and milk. That's one thing.
I can do other exercise instead of sports, right? I have terrible social anxiety.
Thank you for helping me.

>>4062243

Stop drinking milk. It's terrible for you.

>>4062245
I've heard. Should I avoid all dairy products?

>>4061805
this image is so dumb holy shit

>>4062236
Try mindfulness meditation as well.

I have suffered with depression and anxiety and it has helped me.

>>4062280
That sounds a bit frightening. Could you recommend a book on that to teach me about it?

>>4061805
>Shouldn't he be just as shunned because he is only fixed on one aspect of culture, while ignoring everything else?
i'd say so

>>4062236

The three things that got me over depression were exercise, exercise and exercise.

>>4061805
>sometimes music

Visual arts is older than literature and has a more expansive log.

>>4062055
Because you played a significant role in creating them. They're practically part of you in a book - you imagine them into being. With movies or comics, it's all already laid out for you.

movies and tv are brainless activities.

>>4062372

Jesus christ trip. I hope your head isn't so far up your arse you actually believe this

>>4062379
Prove me wrong. I'm not saying it's bad to watch movies and TV.

>>4062390
Yes you are. Brainless is a decidedly negative adjective.

>>4062390

You must be under some delusion that all movies and tv are like michael bay films where you get completely spoon fed. There are thousands of examples of things that require active consideration to fully appreciate. Films with complex narratives like Mulholland Drive for instance. You must live in a bubble or something

>>4062404
i love when the entry level plebs think they are enlightening others with their mulholland drive recommendations. nigga, u dont think fandroid has seen that movie already? level up so u can see us.

>>4062410

>all these assumptions
>implying I even recommend mulholland drive
>sucking trip dick

I'm actually getting embarrassed for you

>>4061805
>going against and with the grain
fagets, do u even know critical theory?

>>4062404
You act as if you and the average movie watcher watches French avant-garde films on a daily basis. Most films and TV is just entertainment fodder.

>>4062433

Shit, you could say the same about literature. You have to be selective.

That hopelessly inaccurate Venn diagram is giving me unwanted GCSE flashbacks
still can't believe how hard it is for people to even imagine that an author might use symbolism

>>4062372
No more so than reading

>>4062290
It's far from frightening.

"the Mindful Way Through Depression" is a great book, but you can just follow a tutorial on YouTube. The benefits are enormous, and you'll be glad you did it.

I despise that picture.

While some books are definitely over-interpreted, color is usually a defining part of prose, setting a mood with the connotation ascribed to it. Different colors have different tones, you fuckhead. You have to be a real dullard if you believe "dat da auffer juss picked da color: WAI LUK INTOO IT ENI FURDER???"

I'm not even going to read what you said, I can already tell your opinions are shit.

>>4062813
or, perhaps, just perhaps, author wanted the reader to visualize the background scene for immersion and gave the color

>>4062796
I downloaded that book and the audiobook. Thank you so much.

>>4062835
You're welcome, chap. Keep at it. It took me a long time to encourage myself to do it. I've been doing it for a few months now and it has been a great help.

Don't worry about whether you're doing it "right" or "wrong". Just do it. I still feel like I'm doing it wrong, but in actuality, I'm not. There's no big mystery to it. It's simple, and easy to start, but it does take time to get better.

Best of luck and please do continue with it.

>>4061828
>Choosing Pokémon to weigh against Proust
The tables would, however, turn if you weighed George and Martha (I just looked up a list of third-grade books, since I remember playing Pokémon at that age but have no idea how good at reading the average third grader is) against Spec Ops: The Line, though video games have not developed too many works like that one. However, there are many movies that can both require effort and grant intellectual stimulation. It's just a matter of whether you're watching the right things and putting in the effort, which is really no different from books.

>>4062813
3/10

The only way to explore a profound idea is to write a book.

Every single great idea in human history has come, or at least gained credence, from literature. Every single one.

>>4062831
Depending on the book, either of those could be true.

>>4062859
Yeah!
Fire? Literature. Language? Literature. Writing? Books. Laws? Literature. Buildings? Literature. The first religions? Literature.

Also:
>comparing books with movies, TV series, animation, and games
>Using the entirety of human history as a timeframe


>>4061805
One reason for that is that "books" encompasses nonfiction books, which are informative in a different way that is quite rarely the case with most of the mediums you mentioned. You can have documentaries, and you can have the History or Nature channels, and you can have educational games (not that those are really any good), but there haven't been a great number of non-fiction works with arguments (scientific, historical, philosophical, etcetera) in those other mediums. Of course, the history of writing is much longer than those mediums', but it emerged originally as a method of recording things, whereas those mediums are starting out as largely fiction-oriented in purpose, so they might end up having different trajectories of development.

>>4061805
Well here's my thoughts: Literature, media, movies, plays, music, etc. are all equally good and circumstantial outlets for culture. However, literature being the oldest, often encompasses the larger portion of the field. As in, there is more good literature than there is good art, understand? All have the equal potential to be good, but lit is most common, and the easiest way to find a good, respectable source.

>>4063011

Money also has something to do with it. Financially speaking, anyone can write a masterpiece at home using nothing but pen and paper. You need some decent cash to make even a tiny indie movie, and probably even more to make an indie game. This naturally leads to the prevalence of comercially oriented works in those media.

One could argue that including the color of the drapes is a violation of Chekhov's Gun if there is no subtext. If its not adding anything thematically, just don't bring up the damn drapes, unless you're just trying to stretch pages in which case why am I reading.

>>4061828
>Take two people: one who solely plays pokemon, and one who solely reads Proust, and tell me which becomes a better person for it.

Trick question!

>>4063027
>and probably even more to make an indie game.
No. Writing an indie game costs nothing but time and programming skill.

The shittiness of games is due to the field being so immature. (I.e., games are played by kids who want to see explosions and shit.)

I've gotten deep enough into music (more than anything else), literature, anime & tv and somewhat into film that I can say pretty confidently that literature has a higher number of... I don't know what you'd call it, artful works.

It also was once a medium solely available to the highly educated, which no other medium has ever been.

A big part of it is probably that it's a self-fulfilling prophesy. I'm glad that modern TV is breaking that down a bit. The whole tivo thing really opened up the west to non-episodic series.

This thread is hilarious.
>Anime is a medium.
>Books are only for grown ups and intellectuals.
>Every single great idea in human history has come, or at least gained credence, from literature.
Gold after gold.

>>4063150
I don't recall anyone ever calling it a medium, but the conventions are so vastly different from any other style within television that it makes sense to differentiate it in a discussion like this

>>4061805
>that picture
99% of the time, it's just really obvious shit that some INCREDIBLY stupid student can't understand, so because of misplaced self confidence, and because it isn't stated explicitly, the english literature teacher MUST be wrong.
Jesus fucking christ, I know that they do it sometimes, but by far the most of the time, the opposing student is wrong

>>4063200
yeah that image is super dumb and it always pisses me off and its extremely high school

>>4061924
/lit/ generally has a misplaced understanding of the video game medium. Sure, it doesn't have much, but bioshock infinite is definitely in the very very low brow end of the industry. Although most of it is, there are things that are much much smarter than bioshock infinite.

>>4061805
Dance, Song, Goat murdering, Religion, Getting drunk and raping each other and War have all been around as art longer than literature.

>>4063204
There was a guy ranting about this in my (college) freshman English class, mostly about how symbolism was fake bullshit made up by pretentious academics. When asked for examples, he gave Lord of the Flies. Meaning he thought there was no symbolism in Lord of the Flies, which has some of the most obvious, elementary symbolism in any book I've ever read. I go to a breddy good college, too.

>>4063200
>>4063204
I would agree with you if it weren't for that one class I had in high school where we read OM&M

for over 2 months

on a trimester system

>>4061851
>books are not meant to be enjoyed, their only use is for me to grow smarter!

-/lit/

I saw a post last week on here which offered a pretty good answer to your question. It was something along the lines of how, because of the nature of the video game and TV industries, everything has to be somewhat high-concept and easily sellable. EA or Fox aren't interested in giving you funding for your project if it doesn't cater to a wide audience. However, this isn't to say that there aren't quality TV shows and Video Games.

>>4063213
Golding was also a teacher - it makes sense he'd be heavy with beginners symbolism.

>choir robes
>boulder
>skull on stick
>smashing of glasses
>crashed plane
>island
>dead pilot
>conch