/lit/ - Literature

It's heavily debated. I prefer to think of it as dystopian since I cherish things like meaningful relationships.

I thought the same thing when I read it. It looks like the majority of people are finally happy in that book.

The fact that people could call that place a utopia was exactly what Huxley was worried about.

>>3986351
But why is it worrying ? This place looks perfect. It's aiming at maximum happiness, and not only for the higher caste, but for all the others too.

I don't understand why it has to be a warning. Maybe he just saw the possibility that this might happen, or rather that people are more and more sedated in that manner, and wanted to draw it to its logical conclusion? Sometimes, curiosity and doing something because you can is all the reason you need.

>>3986366
Because individuality, intelligence, self sustainability, appreciation of nature, equality, substantial human interaction, and love don't exist.

>>3986370
And why is that needed when happiness for the mass can be achieved ?

>>3986351
Yes, exactly.
Every month there's the same thread where someone says that he'd like to live in a world similar to Brave New World's, and then someone calls him an edgy teen because the world discussed lacks meaning and humanity.
I personally think such threads appear because work and sex are very accessible in the world of Aldous and that's what a lot of people are missing today.

>>3986375
There's more to being human than being happy, anon.

You arent genuinely happy when ur drugged up all the time. If i recall correctly, they had a really shitty time when they stoppes taking soma.

But fucking around like they did would be awesome :PP

>>3986391
What is your definition of being human ?

>tfw alpha+ irl

>>3986397
I think I'd range from alpha- to delta+. I'd be happy with it in Huxley's world.

>>3986394
Well fuck, if that isn't a question. I'm no philospher, but I know these >>3986370
certainly count for something.

>>3986403

They were all happy with it, moron

it's the lack of the ability to choose. nothing is left to chance - you are designed during your conception, taught how to think during childhood, and you are finally happy as an adult.

>>3986370
If i recall correctly, they do exist. All individualists were sent to Iceland or something, where they could live their individual lives. Also i think there were reservours or something where different societies lived.

>>3986397

>tfw epsilon as fuck ;_;

>>3986408
Why would you consider those things more important than being happy?

>>3986413
Yeah, and isn't that great, being finally happy as an adult? Isn't that what we're all aiming at in life?

>>3986414
Minorities. I don't think they should be taken in account when saying that "individuality, intelligence, self sustainability, appreciation of nature, equality, substantial human interaction, and love".

>>3986417
Just imagine how happy you'd be if we all prayed to Ford ;_;

I thought the same thing at first, it's a utopia in a sense of a 'successful' civilization.

I still think it puts up a very difficult question. Because to not want that civilization in a way is illogical. The arguments against are all very weak, biggest probably being individuality. What is individuality? You aren't an individual, different place, parents, environment and you're no longer you, so why protect 'you'.

Shit, the book even gives a happy ending for those who have a strong enough individuality to break away.

I still wouldn't want to live in that world, but I can't fault it.

>>3986423
our aiming in life is to be free to do whatever we want and be happy with it. And if people were so happy in this book they wouldn't even take drugs. Drugs are legal for they are the only islands in this ocean called 'utopia'.

>>3986414

Id bring some young hot sluts and loads of drugs for them, and bang them all day every day. And they wouldnt even mind

Hnnnggggggg

>>3986423
Yeah, but I, as well as anybody else from present would be in that minority, so I don't care about those semi-humans that are majority. They are happy with their pills and the individualists are not surpressed. Almost.

>>3986351
This. It's because we are getting close to that world now. Its' world is even scarier than 1984 on some levels.
>tfw you read all those books at the age of 8-12
>tfw your intelligence didn't develop since then

>>3986423
>Why would you consider those things more important than being happy?
Well, I don't mean to speak for anyone else, but to me, these seem like the redeeming qualities of humanity. What's to separate a pleasure-driven machine in a technically-perfect world from one in the wild? In fact, how would such a world come to be, if not for those with greater vision? Just my opinion.

>>3986431
Nice point about the drugs. I had not thought a lot about it upon reading.
But don't you ever drink alcohol with your friends? Isn't that somehow the same thing as taking these drugs?

>>3986439
Why would you consider it scarier than 1984?
In 1984, if you don't agree with the gov't telling you what you should do, you're suppressed. In Brave New World, you're just sent on an Island where you'll be with like-minded people.

>>3986440
English isn't my main language, and I fear that I may have misunderstood what you're saying. I'll try to answer anyway.
>What's to separate a pleasure-driven machine in a technically-perfect world from one in the wild?
The fact that the machine in the technically-perfect world wouldn't have to risk depriving the other machines from their own pleasure in order to obtain its pleasure.
>In fact, how would such a world come to be, if not for those with greater vision?
There are people with greater vision. They're even allowed to work, though their work may never be used because it would cause instability, and loss of happiness for the mass.

Content complacency isn't happiness. Thinking that the aim of life is to be content only paints yourself as being a diluted, angsty teen with no actual aims in life.

>>3986451
Drinking alcohol sometimes with your friends is not the same as required soma intake. That's like comparing heroin to Advil.

>>3986459
What is your reason for drinking alcohol with your friends ?

>>3986451
Touche.

>>3986451
about alcohol
I rarely drink it and it's only when I'm with friends. When I'm not in the mood to drink they always say "drink and you'll be happier" or "you should have a glass! it'll lift your spirit". In a way alcohol is the same situation, although legal in our world. There were times when it have been illegal, and that has led to the birth of the mafia.

>>3986467
one more thing
alcohol is different from soma because it's not the only source of happiness

>>3986462
Social interaction. Soma is prescribed in order to achieve the exact opposite effect; to create distance between humans

>>3986471
Soma is more like pot. It was originally supposed to be pills, but pot is the crutch of people today.

>>3986471
Soma isn't the only source of hapiness.
In Brave New World, working makes you happy. Consuming makes you happy. Even dying and being who you are makes you happy.

>>3986473
Exactly. Alcohol is used for social interractions. Because you don't have social interactions H24.
Soma is the same things. It gives you loneliness. Because you don't have loneliness H24.

>>3986478
some of my friends smoke pot regularly. they want me to start smoking with them "because I'm cool hang out with". It's always "it's harmless and we do it because it makes us feel good.

How is one supposed to tell his mates they smoke because they have nothing to live for?

>>3986349
But if you lived in BNW you would be conditioned to like those things they have. If you don't think BNW is utopia then you must say that you do not like doing things you like. Calling BNW dystopic is irrational.

>>3986485
why take the pills then? why not work all day, eat all day?

>>3986489
>doing things you like is bad because of hypothetical goal X I say people should have

Please tell me what you have to live for except enjoyment of life.

>>3986493
Because soma is fucking awesome and the spice ay life. And working all day and eating all day destroy you.

>>3986493
Because social interactions all day erryday can be as 'depressing' as loneliness all day erryday.
Soma is the equivalent to alcohol in our world.

>>3986451
>Why would you consider it scarier than 1984?
This is the eventuality. I doubt 1984 could ever really occur. This probably will at some point.

>>3986502
soma takes you out of the boring world. alcohol does not.

>>3986503

>implying 1984 hasnt already occured

>>3986509
Alcohols "turns ugly whales into princess". How isn't that being taken out of the boring world ?

>>3986489
pot can enhance lie if you have some discipline, good experience if you trust yourself not to spiral down into lethargy

>>3986517
that's too much alcohol

>>3986496
constant pleasure rarely equates to genuine happiness

>>3986517
Not as good as soma, feelies and orgy porgies.

>>3986525
Still, please tell me what you have to live for except enjoyment of life. Which lofty goal raises you above those who like to have a good time with their friends?

>>3986516
Lol'd. How old are you?

>>3986531

17

>>3986530
not him
drugs would be my last chance to become a happy person if everything faild to so. Luckily I manage to keep myself busy without taking any substances to do the job for me.

>>3986520
Even with just a glass of alcohol, your perception of the world changes. You're a bit more social. A bit less afraid of doing stupid things. Having a bit more fun. Alcohol takes you out of the boring world the same way Soma does, it is just less spectacular.

>>3986534
Ban incoming

>>3986541
and there's the difference in the reason why you drink and why you take soma
when I drink alcohol it's for sole purpose of enjoying the taste of the alcohol, not the aftermath

when taking soma I'm doing it for the aftermath. I don't like soma, I like the world soma provides.

>>3986546

Troled

>>3986540
Getting together with friends and getting high is about getting together with friends firstly. The weed is merely a backdrop to the socialising, just like going for a drink is. Or having tea or coffee together. The substance and involved ritual serves as a social lubricant. Same reason people have business dinners.

>>3986553
why do you need pot to meet your friends? don't tell me you can have the same good time as if you were drinking tea.

>>3986530
None, my point wasn't that there is any objective goal in life. But if we take enjoyment of life to be number 1, (which I do) then going out and doing things, trying to achieve a goal that is important to you and making it will probably leave you more fulfilled than sitting around with friends. Most people don't because chilling with friends is fun and doing new things like that is initially scary. It's more people lying to themselves about being totally fine with just hanging out with mates, when the prospect of something bigger, even if not rationally important, would fulfil them more.
It's not about being better than them.

>>3986554
Of course it's different, but the point is that it's not fundamentally about the substance. The high provides a scenery, a shared place that increases a feeling of bonding. It's like taking a girl to a place with a beautiful view in a way, or taking her to the cinema. It's about sharing an experience and the sharing is more important than the experience itself. Of course the high can be fun, but it's about people first, otherwise you might as well smoke alone. People like occasions, reason, excuses and motives for socialising and they like to have something to do while doing so. Coming together around some substance or ritual is how people have been socialising for millennia. You can see it from the most fancy dinners to people on their cigarette break chatting away. Saying that people do so because they have nothing to live for is silly.

>>3986560
I guess you are right, although I really doubt they would gather around without the pot. That's their case specifically. That's my impression of pot.

>>3986557
Chasing around arbitrary achievements is alright if it makes you happy, but assuming that it is also the summit of fulfilment for others and that they live less fully than you because they don't do what you do is a bit much. Arguably, for the vast majority of people life doesn't get much better than having your affairs in order and taking it easy with your loved ones, since this is the behaviour most humans seem to portray. I don't think that is out of fear for great endeavours but simply because it really makes them happy.

>>3986566
I think that's very likely, but I don't think that is merely to blame on the weed but on how highly habitual and ritualistic such little group cultures tend to become. Their circle may fall apart without the weed, but some circles fall apart without football, or beer, or boardgames or camping. I think every group needs some sort of social adhesive. Drugs are merely a very powerful one. I think that's one of the reasons addicts are advised to stay away from their former circles. It's not merely that there are drugs around, but that it's this tribe they used to engage in this ritual with.

>>3986574
you are completely right.

>>3986569
It's kind of like a friendship. If all the experiences you have are sitting together having a laugh, that's good. A friendship where you've experienced many things and been through hard times and great times is great. These types of thing are what I think humans look back on with the greatest fondness. A goal doesn't need to be the typical capitalist stuff. I think most would agree a friendship involving different experiences, working hard and success together is ideal.

>>3986342
>Hi /lit/. I read Brave New World today. How can the world described in this book be called a dystopia ?
>It looks like an utopia to me.
That's the exact point of it. I'd say that he cuts slower but deeper than Orwell.

>>3986586
I'd leave out the working hard and success part. Filthy protestant work ethic, I want my otium.

>>3986613
Feeling good after doing something hard and feeling like a piece of shit after relaxing all day are impulses that exist in the majority i think.

Those who call it dystopian likely live in a place us third-worlders would consider an utopia.

>>3986637
Resting after exercise is pleasant of course, but having a trouble with a relaxing day is mostly neurotic work ethic related. A lot of people feel guilty if they don't do anything 'useful', which is horrible. I'm going to agree with Mr Yutang and say: “If you can spend a perfectly useless afternoon in a perfectly useless manner, you have learned how to live”. Maybe I would up the stakes and say a day, a month or even a life.

Needing to accomplish something, needing to be useful, to be productive seems a sign of low self-esteem. One deems oneself unworthy of life without in some way being a servant.

I got the idea that you can't live in constant blissfulness without pain and suffering. One without the other tips the balance into total obstruction of genuine happiness, but then again it could be all bullocks.