/lit/ - Literature

>>3979475
I'll elaborate on that last bit about people speaking about "the demands of the age"

it's like when people say, "you can't believe in God nowadays, he belonged to the past, unelightened ages", or, "you can't be religious today, the whole point of the modern world is to attempt a life without religion". That's it applied to religion, but there's countless other cases where young people claim to be acting on behalf of the age, and in doing so cruelly accuse everybody that doesn't act the way they want as "anachronistic" or "behind the times" or "reactionary", etc.

>>3979481
another example would be if a girl who for some reason got it in to her head the bizarre idea that it's better to not have sex at all than it is to have sex with somebody that doesn't have any commitment to you, were seduced into sexual deviancy by somebody saying, "come on! that kind of thinking is reactionary, oppressive to women! our age is the age of sexual freedom! if you don't have sex with me (or with somebody) you clearly don't belong in the modern world."
Such is the cruelty of the accusation - you can't believe anything without being accused of "halting progress" or being "anachronistic".

that's it applied to the sexual attitudes of the modern world, but there are countless cases more.

So smart kids are full of hubris?

>>3979488
That that's just clever rhetoric. It's not really trying to speak in the name of an age, it's pretending to do so to get into someone's pants.

Batmanchronistic

So the first passage suggests people overthink things, and the second is accusing young pople of saying:

"Get with the times man! Your line is strictly old hat!" or as Prez would put it: "Cool it, man!You had your chance!"

I'm not sure i get much of the second one from lit: if anything they're over reverential of the past.

As for the first, it's true we tend to talk things to death, but words are what we deal in: either as producers or consumers or critics.

>>3979503
>if anything they're over reverential of the past.
Until you tell them they are, then they instantly turn futurist.

#gadflymafia

>>3979503
>So the first passage suggests people overthink things, and the second is accusing young pople of saying:

>"Get with the times man! Your line is strictly old hat!" or as Prez would put it: "Cool it, man!You had your chance!"

yes, and these are two of the most important criticism of modern society

>>3979508
It's 'muh faith' and 'respect muh faith' respectively when you realise who it's coming from.

I post these quotes because I meet with what Kierkegaard is saying everyday on /lit/.

/lit/ is full of clever kids
4chan is full of clever kids

kids that spend their time (like I do) on the internet, being lazy, not really giving a fuck, either coasting through life or chasing after some material goal like money or fame, and then we argue about things that are of the highest importance, like truth, and art, and all sorts of bizarre theories from great philosophers, and then when we are done speaking we go back to our indifferent lives without once thinking that our conversation implicated us at all.

>>3979515
that feel

>>3979511
like this guy, who thinks he has understood Kierkegaard, and has probably only read him very cursorily if he's read him at all, thinks he can pass judgement on what he says, thinks it's a matter of indifference to do so, that it doesn't really matter if Kierkegaard is right or wrong, or if anybody is right or wrong

>>3979517
feels are another symptom of the problem

we think that our "feels" make us profound
that if we can read profound philosophical texts and profound literary achievements and have "dem feels" then that somehow makes us "cultured" or "deep" or "intelligent" or "sensitive" or whatever, when really we consume "feels" like we consume fast-food, and once we have done "feel"sing we go back to our indifference, and don't make an attempt to change anything within ourselves.

this thread gave me feels. whelp, im gonna go smoke another bowl.

>>3979515
>and then we argue about things that are of the highest importance, like truth, and art, and all sorts of bizarre theories from great philosophers, and then when we are done speaking we go back to our indifferent lives without once thinking that our conversation implicated us at all.
I don't feel guilty of this, I carry my investigations everywhere and all my theorising has direct influence on my day to day life. If anything all my thought directly relates to my own position.

>>3979519
I haven't read a lot by him I admit, but the snippets you posted (presumably so that people could engage you in debate without reading Soren's complete works first) seem merely like a complaint without really showing why the things he accuses people of are actually a bad thing.

>>3979515
>and then we argue about things that are of the highest importance, like truth, and art, and all sorts of bizarre theories from great philosophers, and then when we are done speaking we go back to our indifferent lives without once thinking that our conversation implicated us at all.
I don't feel guilty of this, I carry my investigations everywhere and all my theorising has direct influence on my day to day life. If anything all my thought directly relates to my own position.

>>3979519
I haven't read a lot by him I admit, but the snippets you posted (presumably so that people could engage you in debate without reading Soren's complete works first) seem merely like a complaint without really showing why the things he accuses people of are actually a bad thing.

>thinks he can pass judgement on what he says, thinks it's a matter of indifference to do so, that it doesn't really matter if Kierkegaard is right or wrong, or if anybody is right or wrong
Well you've got me there.

and I anticipate somebody coming in here and saying that he's an exception to this indifference, that he "has a life", maybe even a "fulfilling life", has a girlfriend and a job and a hobby, but even that person will be guilty of reflection. Even that person will be guilty of constantly questioning, "is my girlfriend that right girl for me? She's nice but I've met girl that was better than her in this way, and met another girl that was better than her in a different way. Should I marry her? Should I make a commitment" and "is this job really for me? Is this really what I want do? What am I doing with my life? Can I see myself doing this 10 years from now?" and "I enjoy writing as a hobby but am I really any good? Is it really worth pursuing if I lack the talent to succeed? Why am I writing any way, is it because it's fun or because I want to be successful at it?" Now the point is that these reflections in themselves are not bad, the point is that the person, due to the reflective nature of the present age, will always put off arriving at a decision to these question, an answer to them, and goes back to his life with the vague feeling that something is missing. Perhaps in later life he will marry that girl, not because he ever decided that she was "the one", but because "why not? I've been with her all this time, I might as well marry now". And perhaps he will decide that it's the right job for him, now that he's been promoted. He gave up on writing, but he plays badminton now

>>3979552
That's mostly a side effect of contemporary life though, I don't think you can blame it on the individuals. We're paralysed by choices in every espect of life which is a long shot from taking on your fathers craft, having an arranged marriage and not having to choose a brand of toothpaste at all.

>>3979557
> We're paralysed by choices in every espect of life

yes, and this is what makes our age so ethically ambiguous.
we can't be good or evil, because we never come to a definite decision, and even when we do come to a decision it is met with a thousand interpretations from every side so that no consensus is made on whether it was good or evil, and so the effect is the same as if the decision was never made at all.

this is what Kierkegaard speaks of when he says that the habit of reflection convinces us that "the flattering illusion that the possibilities offered by reflection are something far greater than paltry decision."

A comedian touched on this situation a bit. He described how he was on an airplane once, and I can't remember the exact details, but he thought about giving up his seat to somebody that it would have suited more than himself. He never gave up his seat, never acted on his reflection, but the reflection himself (and this was the punchline for the comedian's joke) allowed him to feel good about himself anyway, "I was so proud of myself for having such nice thoughts - I thought, wow, I'm such a nice person."

>>3979557
>taking on your fathers craft, having an arranged marriage and not having to choose a brand of toothpaste at all.

the point is though, is that while they may not have been forced to make as many decision as we seem to do, they still in reality made more decisions than us, and that's because our decisions aren't really decisions. When a person took up his father's craft it was a real commitment to carry on his father's legacy, when a person agreed to an arranged marriage it was a real commitment to carry on society's tradition. If that person had chosen instead to betray his father's legacy it would have scandalized his father but it would still have been a decision and commitment he had to make - to betray his father and follow his calling. If that other person had decided to elope with his beloved instead of agreeing to an arranged marriage, then he would have been truly making a decision, the decision to betray his family and society for the sake of his love.
Nowadays such decisions are not made, instead we are glutted with so many false decisions like the toothpaste one you mentioned, than no real decisions or commitments are made. You can have sex, but it doesn't matter if you get pregnant, because you can have an abortion. You can get married, but it doesn't matter if it bores you, because you can always get a divorce.

This is why Kierkegaard said,
"Is there anybody who makes even just one tremendous blunder anymore?"

>>3979561
I think that this ambiguity is only problematic in the transition phase from something more certain and black and white. It's possible to come to terms with our current condition and when you do it's more freeing than anything else. It ends up being more of a liberation than a handicap. I like the Stirnerist approach where the collapsing framework is seen as the dismantling of a cage rather than the falling apart of one's house.

>>3979571
it isn't a liberation though, it truly is a kind of tyranny. A tyranny through incessant reflection. This is why you chose those very apt words, "paralysed by choices".
It was Kierkegaard's testimony that only a "religious inwardness" could break free of this. In other words, it would take a kind of faith, a belief that you are absolutely right - this is the kind of thing required, because unless you are completely assured then the world will offer up a reflection that will allow you to resolve your decision into nothing, it will say, "but have you considered this point of view? have you not seen it from this angle? do you not see how your decision is somewhat vague here and says nothing about these matters?"

"There are anchorites in all ages: In ours it is mostly given to the young, and the rootless, footloose middle-aged, to stare out blandly at the sea and see in it only a metaphor for themselves:

"Mark! The ebb and flow, the changeless, ever-changing face! See it construct great ramparts of the wrack and debris of men's lives, and then casually erase them leaving only the palimpsest of the sands of time! See! The clear and lucid surface! Bright now, or troubled by the reflection and distill of the tempest, yet what deep and serene depths lurk in lightlessness beneath? What abyssal profundities that are never shown to the gaze of the world! Oh, My soul!"

Such men will hide themselves away from society, guarding their precious diamonds, in the rough, lest they be burnished and refined by the mundane vicissitudes and made to shine perhaps in invidious comparision to those whose lustre was acquired ages agone, and from whom the dross and slag of mortality and flesh have long since sloughed away.

It is always great comfort to a man in his age to ponder what he might have become, if only... rather than to quench himself in the fire and take a humbling knowledge."
--Swaner--

>>3979570
I guess one of the ways to recharge existence with the grave seriousness no longer available to most of us is to antagonise society. Still, I don't necessarily see if our current situation is a bad thing at all. What's Soren's problem here? A lack of intensity in living? A lack of authenticity?

>>3979580
is that Kierkegaard too?

>>3979583
he's basically saying that our lives are completely wasted, because we never decide to live.
we're so passionless and deluded by the false promises that reflection offer us that we never come to a decision on what is good and what is evil, what is worth pursuing to the ends of the earth and what is worth damning to hell, and so we drift through life waiting for that one reflection that will allow us to believe that our life wasn't wasted, but when that reflection comes it's only a moment later that another reflection arrives to tell us that the previous reflection wasn't "complete".

>>3979474
Where is the child rape? We progressives demand child rape in our literature, as per >>3979523

If you think child rape is bad, you are a regressive conservatard.

>>3979578
I would say there is another approach that doesn't require the absolute assurance that you are right, but merely the absolute assurance that you can't be wrong. The choices only paralyse someone who still contributes enough gravity to the choices to deem them of enough importance to require lengthy consideration.

This sort of jolly nihilism that liberates not by showing what is right but by dismissing all wrong breaks through this barrier of incessant reflection. Having destroyed any external measure by which my choices can be right or wrong, I chose to do things simply because I want to, which leads to the same sort of decisiveness as a position as faith, only with the difference that one lacks all commandments and obligation. What I choose is the right choice simply by virtue of being mine. Instead of seeking out God to be in the right, I absolve myself from ever being wrong.

>>3979590

not the same guy, but what books of his would you suggest to someone new to him? or other related books as well. this thread is too feel intense for me to ignore

>>3979586
Swaner's commentary on Kierkegaard.

"To ask of youth to adapt the precepts of an age of prophecies so long unfulfilled, and to clutch with the mutitudes the withered branch of hopeful certainty of joys to come, and thus require for his sure footing within the World, that he embrace the dry convictions of an antique race in the face of what he sees and knows is to ask for faith, indeed."

>>3979604
I'm not well read in Kierkegaard or in anybody for that matter, but I read The Sickness Unto Death first and enjoyed it. People say Either/Or is a good starting work but I haven't found a free ebook yet for it yet and haven't read it.

You can get The Sickness Unto Death free here
http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Kierkegaard,Soren/TheSicknessUntoDeath.pdf

this will also allow you to save it to your computer

there'll be a point early on reading this that makes you think, "wtf is he talking about". He uses dense language partly to parody the popular German philosophers of his time, especially Hegel. But if you stick with it and can follow more or less the general ideas, then there are moments in that book which are unlike anything you'll get elsewhere.

>>3979611

thanks, appreciate it

WHERE is the child rape? We progressives DEMAND child rape in our threads and in our literature, for progress. See the replies to >>3979523 for our official, progressive stance on child rape, which is good. The more child rape, the better. 4 Trayvon, 4 Marxism!

>>3979598
this reminds me of this comment

>One cannot accuse an age that is very reflective of being powerless, just like that and with no further ado, for there may be much power, but it goes to waste in the futility of reflection. With some illusion as support, it takes far less effort to achieve at least something than when all illusion is lost. And just as scurvy is cured by eating vegetables, perhaps a person worn out in reflection needs not so much strength as a little illusion.

>>3979590
I agree with you and with Kierkegaard's wise words, thanks for the sharing.
The beleif that man has to decide to live isn't simply tangential to the religious life; to decide to live is to convert oneself, becoming aware of our role within the world.

>>3979522
>and don't make an attempt to change anything within ourselves.
>tfw I want to change but I don't know where to start
Do you even feel?

>>3979707
Fix your diet, sleeping pattern and exercise habits.

inb4 excuses

This is the place to start.

>>3979707

>"Or consider the person whose advantages are few. Cowardice is now quick to sing a different tune: “What you’ve got is far too little to make a good beginning.” This, of course, is particularly stupid. If we always need more to begin with we would never begin. But “God does not give us the spirit of cowardice, but the spirit of power, and of love and of self-control”. Cowardice does not come from God. One who wants to build a tower sits down and makes an estimate as to how high he can build it. But if no decision is ever made then no tower is ever built. A good decision is our will to do everything we can within our power. It means to serve God with all we’ve got, be it little or much. Every person can do that."

>"Many have gone astray through not understanding how to continue a good beginning."

this thread is post-sincere

>>3979627
>implying we have as role in the world
>implying existence conforms to narrative
>implying agency
>implying personhood