/lit/ - Literature

Not worse off, just deluded.

You ever hear of a tithe?

>>3949579
All the wasted money.

fo rizzle OP, my nigga

I never get any serious answers when I ask this question.

Isn't it something that needs to be considered?

bump again

What have anti-religious crusaders said on this matter? The so called new atheists take proselytization very seriously, haven't they ever asked why? What are they trying to save people from, exactly? Obviously religion can create problems, but unless that's all it does it seems rather pointless to care who's religious or not.

>>3949586
>no external significance or meaning

>>3949574

They're not, technically. Even Camus, who, in his absurdism, claimed one of the paths is denial through a religious or belief system, also allowed for people to follow belief systems as long as they're doing it in an absurd manner, for reasons other than the belief in existential meaning.

It's the reasons and the effort/time/money expended in those reasons that make a person better or worse off....and even within that, better or worse off are only subjectively defined by the person who is experiencing that particular life, or witnessing that particular life.

Those subjective viewpoints are then pressed together through communication, and new ideas and viewpoints are created by the coming together of those ideas, both about the life in question, and lives witnessed later by both the livee and the witness.

>>3949574
I don't know OP, but thanks for arming me with a weapon next time I encounter an nihilistic militant atheist.

Athiests- 0
Decent Folk- 1

most of the shit flinging is out of anger or frustration and nothing more if you want to leap about with muh faith go for it you probably will be better off

>>3950219
>>3950224
I haven't really looked into it (though I've been busy). But I've been thinking about nihilism, and why is it labeled stupid by /lit/? I mean what am I missing as long as one is an atheist or has a similar non-belief system?

they wouldn't necessarily be worse off, just wrong.
see
>>3949581

>>3949574
They're not, we all build narratives and structures in our head to make sense of the world through our subjective experiences. All narratives are leaps of faith.

That being said, it seems like there are some consistent coincidences even with personal bias and imperfect sense data. There are many ways to deal with our own personal worlds, some better and some worse.

Personally I would advise people to try and stay away from most religious faiths since they seem to lead to some very unhealthy and unhappy habits, lives, and people. Its only advise though.

>>3950226
a mix between confusing nihilism with pessimism, sucking nietzsche's and dostoevsky's respective cocks, being jesus nerds & camus dweebs, and just being too wimpy to embrace the xXnihilvoidXx666

>>3950226
I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure /lit/ makes fun of it because often times it's the conclusion that all angsty teenagers come to who've stumbled upon the revelation that they are vastly superior to everyone around them, surrounded in their high school hallways by mindless lemmings. The main people that tend to come here claiming to nihilists all reek of that kind of high school persona and tend to act a little juvenile.

But if you critically think about it and end up concluding it's the philosophy that makes sense, go for it.

They aren't worse off. The religion they turn to is usually destructive and oppressive and without a doubt completely outdated nonsense that destroys the social development of the planet.

>>3950244
>destroys the social development of the planet
>implying social development or "progress" is always inherently good

>>3949574
>no external significance
>believing there is
>believing in something that is not real

if you find absolutely nothing wrong about clouding your mind through believing in a false reality and basing your life on falsehoods, then by all means go for it. But when you tell people that you genuinely believe in Santa, or whatever the hell false idea you have, dont be surprised to get ridiculed and laughed at.

>>3950245
>implying raging pointless religious wars, having religious politics, and having religion dictate morality is always inherently good

>>3949574
My comments, a sort of lapsed catholic with inclinations of return, are usually based on the communion with the community. To say that it entirely lacks external significance would be a loss and to say that it dominates the personal can be sketchy and varying.

Many of the works and ideologies are grounded in practiced methods. A work of faith is another helping out and honest work can be considered 'prayer'. Many put emphasis on God or us deifying virtues, but it's really not acknowledged as much as one would think.

My entire hometown in Switzerland is more or less catholic but it's more culture and shared meaning amongst our family and extended family than just a religion.


...wait, what did you read in the first place?

>>3950226
>>3950226
Nihilism is impossible because you value your own well being, its difficult not to. /lit/ doesn't like it because it doesn't have enough prestige.
as for religious people, as people have said they're not worse off, and even if they're deluded, the wide universe doesn't care about that. People will laugh at you, but the earth itself won't bully you for it. You're the one laughing if you become stronger and happier for adding religion to your experiences. You're not answerable to anyone, the universe doesn't laugh at you for getting it wrong. There is no need to feel embarrassed. As a matter of fact I believe that while people are trying to take away religion from society, they've failed to replace it with anything near so fascinating to human psyche, and its interesting and historical and integral to human history enough that we should treat it with more respect.

>>3949586
Why waste your money donating to them when you can give money to various secular charities that not only do a better job, but don't have an ulterior agenda being peddled? This is the Church investing in procuring more members, not helping the less fortunate

>>3950290
there's really someone out there who thinks this way and believes this.

>the universe doesnt care that you're an idiot, so dont be embarrassed, keep being an idiot and deluding yourself with false ideas because they make you feel stronger and happier!
wow. ok...

>failed to replace religion with anything fascinating, interesting, historical, integral to human history
again, wow. pick up a science book. if you dont find that shit fascinating, interesting, historical or integral to humanity, then there's something wrong with you. religion had its time and place, but we dont need it anymore to attempt to explain things or justify power. there isnt any reason to delude yourself into following false ideas, there isnt anything to be gained from it that cannot be gained through other means based in reality.

Wow, didn't know /lit/ had this many fedoratheists

All that postmodernism is really getting to you guys huh?

>>3950295

Ulterior? Everything is quite up front and I doubt they are discrete with their conversions.

A good deal literally deify virtue, helping the less fortunate is considered divine work. Not everyone looks at the world as a big chessboard. These are primarily local interactions with the community.

I help mostly secular causes simply because I am already involved with it and a good communion with members. But to say catholics simply ignore core tenants in favor of membership is silly (besides, they are not doing to well anyways). No one is putting up some potemkin church able to gain membership that way.

>>3950310
*tips fedora*

Thanks for all that wisdom, good sir.

>>3950310
>to attempt to explain things or justify power

...And that's where you misjudged its current place in society. Confusing one generations view of the church with modern days is a bad mistake. I doubt they had much of a choice back then when it comes to the justification of some lord, considering the church would have to really fuck up to avoid falling ass backwards into secular power.

>>3950319
>>3950350
>mentioning hats
>an argument

>>3950319
What religion are you?

>>3950386
>thinking that was an argument
>not owning a fedora

ITT: /lit/ discovers tautologies

>>3950205
You haven't read Camus.

>>3950241
This place is infested with kind of lemmings whose intellectual endeavour is to be edgy contrarians to highschool nihilists. I find them more annoying.

>yfw u realize no1 can refute Kierkegaard
>lel fedorafag

How exactly was Hitler worse off doing what he did? It doesn't matter rite?
Because we have the preconceived notion that everyone should get in on the human experience and some people think that religion robs you of that.

lol last time I went to church 90% of the congregation was halfway to meeting jesus already and some man who wasn't the ordained minister lectured at the pulpit about abortion. Fuck that shit I'm not getting up at 7 in the morning on a sunday for that if heaven is populated by mean versions of my grandparents, old skinflints like Calvin, I'll take hell.

>>3949574
They are not. As Nietzsche said, those who want happiness must simply believe. Those who want to know the truth must inquire. It's a common literary theme that the truth is not a release, but a burden. It weighs you down. Blind faith is a blissful concept and I'm sure your average american fag-hating dunce is much happier than your average philosopher, constantly frustrated in his attempts to map out life as we know it. This is why so many people cling to religion. It's a source of strength and happiness. It's not easy to get away from it and truth is not for everyone.

>>3950527
I think you'd be surprised how many of them religious folk will actually be chilling in hell.

By preparing for the next life, they waste this one. I mean, so does everyone else, but you know what I mean.

>>3949586

You forgot to mention the part where they're responsible for millions of deaths.

Religion is absolutely necessary for social cohesion.

>>3950632

That's just false.

Religion is absolutely unnecessary for social cohesion.

>>3950632
Religion WAS absolutely necessary for social cohesion

>>3950639
im pretty sure hunters and gatherers coexisted quite well and had nothing approaching modern conceptions of religion

>>3950650
That's because family ties were enough

Once you get bigger populations, interpersonal relations aren't a strong enough force to maintain cohesion

>implying that wouldn't make them better off
>implying the religious don't lead happier and healthier lives
>implications being implied

it's the fedoras who are missing out

>>3950654
Their conception of family was much different than our own. This is quite anecdotal, but it seems our conception of family usually refers to our parents and siblings and at most extending to cousins, nephews, nieces, aunts, uncles grandparents etc.

Hunter-gatherer tribes would often refer to the entire tribe as family. This concept of extensive family was related to their method of sexual bonding and their social structure. Often times tribal families extended to other tribes as a result of their more open sexual practices.

So yes, they co-existed in the family, but their definition of family consisted of much larger and extensive families than our modern day definition implies.

>>3950654
religious rites were a way of creating --and identifying-- a uniform in-group, and drawing a line between this group to which you owed things like hospitality, marriage potenitla and even human rights, and the general outgroup who you were free to exploit, deny and enslave as it became possible or useful. Religion allowed the incorporation of useful members of this out-group into the main group. it was a way of demonstrating membership. Think of it like a masonic secret handshake. Instead of killing or exploiting these strangers you could incorporate them into your own group, they got safety (from you) and you got the use of their assets and abilities. There was usually an incorporation rite where something was given up by the individual and something was given to him that was then used as a badge to mark him as a member. Perhaps an item of distinctive headgear....

>>3950650
>and had nothing approaching modern conceptions of religion
Citation needed. As far as I know, people _always_ had complex religions.

>If life has no external significance or meaning how exactly are the religious worse off for thinking that it does?

Because they enslave themselves to a sky dictator, and automatically reduce the subjective value of mortal life on earth to nothing by comparing it to a celestial Disney Land.

>>3949574

Because religion can lead to deceptive premises on which you act, which is a problem when you're responsible for the well-being of other people.


Example: Mother Teresa not giving medical treatment to certain sick and dying people at her mission, believing prayer was all they needed.

>>3950791

>>3950802
lel

>>3950310

>>3950310
science will never be enough to fulfill the human condition because it can only concern itself with the how, not the why. Man seems to be programmed in a way that he has to know the reason behind all things, and in that sense, religion maybe the only answer to curious human condition.

>>3950867

nope. science fullfills me everytime i think about all it's implications. it is just vast and stunning, or to quote Kant here:"Two things fill the mind with ever-increasing wonder and awe, the more often and the more intensely the mind of thought is drawn to them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."

>>3949574
Searching for consolation in religion is legit. Although it can get nasty and some ppl losing touch with reality.

>>3950791

>>3949699
not many atheists actually are bothered about religious people. Problem is all the noisy asshole atheists are out telling people what they ought to believe, which is wrong. But it also makes people think all atheists are like that.

>>3950791
>>3950791

If only I had the intelligence to know to know how to belittle people. Teach me your ways....

>>3950802
>>3950979
Shut the fuck up. That's an excerpt from my newest novel.

>>3950802
>>3950979

>>3950980
>Problem is all the noisy asshole atheists are out telling people what they ought to believe, which is wrong
>atheists are wrong for telling people to believe in facts
This is the world we live in, folks.

>>3951088
>it's completely impossible to believe in facts and the gospel

Atheists are just too weak. Sorry that God has not blessed you yet.

>>3951088

You've kind of have a point. Not to mention that throughout history religion has told (read: forced) people what to believe - there's even the threat of hellfire in some if you don't believe. And yet atheists are the bad guys for pointing out that, probably, none of the contradicting religions are correct.

>>3951079
THANK YOU FEDORA

>>3951104
>that pic
come on dags are we fo real here

>>3951104
>satanism
>a religion
Get a load of this guy

>>3951114

I didn't make the image. However:
>"Satanism is a broad term referring to a group of Western religions comprising diverse ideological and philosophical beliefs."

/lit/ is shit

>>3951104
that pic is actually demeaning to atheism

and if you adjusted it for population you'd have christianity coming out as the largest section

>>3951088
>>atheists are wrong for telling people to believe in facts
for christians, muslims, jews, etc. the fact is that god exists. irony seems to be lost on most atheists who keep telling everyone that god doesn't exist for sure

>>3951104
I don't understand why atheism get's half the circle and not get an even share like every other belief.

>>3951127
Hail Eris.

>>3951144
Because atheism doesn't belong in the theism half.

>>3950624
>lyl cundums

The concept of meaning cannot be applied to anything that is not a proposition. The premises of this question are false.

>>3951104
>>Under theism
>Jainism
>Raelism
>"Satanism"
>Scientology
>UU

>Not to mention that throughout history religion has told (read: forced) people what to believe
> And yet atheists are the bad guys

>>3951191
>The concept of meaning cannot be applied to anything that is not a proposition.
It does if you have faith.

>>3951079
Thank you fedora

>>3951209
what is faith but self delusion

>>3951147
>Hail Eris.
My nigga.

I thought I was the only Discordianist here.

>>3950247
>comparing religion to Santa

This is why as an atheist I don't take most highly outspoken atheists seriously.

>>3951873
>comparing religion to Santa
Seems a fair comparison.

>If life has no external significance or meaning how exactly are the religious worse off for thinking that it does?

Did somebody say Kierkegaard time? Because I think I heard somebody say a humble and unknowing leap in faith into the absolute?

p.s.: In this moment, I am ouphoric. Not because of some phony reason's certitude. But because, I writhe in the quiet hopeful expectation of the absolute resolution of subjectivity's limits.

>>3951079
THANK YOU FEDORA

>>3952486
You have to be 18 to post here

The thing is, in my opinion, religious statements cannot be about matters of fact. That's when I get tripped up about religion. When you claim the Earth evolved in such and such manner, or if the flu is caused by demons in your blood, or that the Earth is the center of solar system etc. These are demonstrable/falsifiable statements which are not religious, I don't think. But if your belief lies beside or beyond matters of demonstrable fact, then believe what you will! You aren't better or worse for it.

>>3952573

>>3952588
>You have to be 18 to post here
Why is it always children who say this?

>>3952595
>in my opinion, religious statements cannot be about matters of fact.
Yes. This has been discussed by thousands of people already. That's why it's called faith.