/lit/ - Literature

>>3901477
If God is good, why would he create a universe at all?

>because God does not intervene in human affairs
>because God has larger plans for the human race that happen to involve some form of evil
>because God doesn't exist
Anyone want to add?

God is not responsible for you being a beta faggot unable to hit on a girl. Your mother should take the blame.

Book of Job

Nothing evil happens. Evil is impossible.

We are merely mistaken as to the nature of what occurs around us. Once we are dead, we will see clearly that everything is good.

>>3901479
You can't kill millions to save billions and claim you're not evil or a criminal, the end do not justify the means

Stay away from anyone who claims to have a definitive answer to this.

>>3901477
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU4zW0_ejlc

>>3901481
*He
but really tho
if you want to make a morality pie ex nihilo you must first invent the universe

Good and evil are lies created by church and state to control you.

>>3901484
This.

Evil is in your judgment, which is faulty at best.

"...there is nothing either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
--Hamlet II.ii.

Go study theodicy.

>>3901477
God doesn't exist. Fuck off.

>>3901508
Hah. Next you're gonna tell me the sun circles the earth.

>>3901508
atheists are seeming increasingly stupid to me

all glory to god in the heavens

>>3901516
>implying it isn't driven across the sphere of the heavens daily by the chariot of Helios
u didn't do very well in school did u

Because God is both good and evil.

OP, are you lookin for legitimate asnwers, or are you trying to piss people off?

>>3901477
duhhhhhhhhhhh bc satan
do you even read

>>3901549

*looking

This keyboard skips over letters sometimes. It's a piece of shit.

>>3901477
>ignoring me
HURR DURR you're not even doing anything to initiate interaction you fucking bitch, check your privilege

if god is good idt he would send ppl to hell for eternity bc they don't believe or are gay or mess up 4 billion years ago i mean seems kinda fishy to me and idt you should just change the rules "oh we don't do that anymore" like you gotta get a new religion but i guess i should still believe this dude w/ the bible because his lie cud be true what have i got to lose (except all self-respect) man religion is so boring

>>3901589
>>3901508
>>3901516
>>3901485

>>3901577
seconded

and the only reason this comic works is because the daydream is almost believable in this pussified world we live in.

Maybe if she dressed better and shaved her legs, boys would talk to her more

>>3901589
whos to say he does? we have numerous religious texts out there, with differences between even the most similar (jews dont believe in hell, etc).

is it so far off base to think that humans fucked up with our interpretation of gods will? maybe the motherfucker is out there but doesnt feel the need to interact with us or punish us after the fact. maybe hes a bro who just gave us existence and is letting us run with it. who can really know the mind of god?

We define what is good and what is evil. Is it evil if a natural disaster kills off people? Evil is defined is harmful and something that is bad but can you blame nature for being evil? No you can't it's a gray area. You can say the same about humans.

God willingly gave humans free will according to Christian theology. So he cannot intervene in human affairs. One could assume that he isn't omnipotent to handle evil but again allowing humans to have free will to make decisions isn't a matter of that. You could say screw it and make it so that God can actively manipulate human action so that what we define as evil never happens. However, this is an issue because evil is no longer defined and God is actively taking away choice which by several philosophers is not good. So that isn't sound either with the definition of God. So a happy medium is that because he conferred free will unto humanity which allowed humans to make decisions and let's them be responsible for their actions. So God can be an observer and still be God. So no matter what happens the universe does not act on a moral scale it just is and we try to make it so that we can find meaning with morals in an immoral world. The universe is God and we just live in it.

>>3901618
whether or not he's out there or not in some form "H"e's just an idea atm and nothing more i dont believe it whether or not ppl try to spook me into believing their dumb superstition via threats of hell / namecalling w/ that dumb fedora meme (which is HUGE on /b/, btw), if there is an afterlife via magic / immortal souls / ghost world well neato

>>3901629
>cannot intervene in human affairs
then why pray to him?
to me it seems as logical as thanking a neglectful parent

Why should he give a fuck if you like the things that happen to you?

>>3901638
Prayer works, studies show. It's a placebo, but placebos, despite not working, work in a psychological way.

>>3901652
but why prayer?
why not meditation, which yields similar results?

>>3901660
You're just arguing apple's and banana's. They're both fruit, it doesn't matter. They both yield similar results.

>>3901629

nature doesn't have a consciousness though. It can't choose to storm or not storm or choose the location of a storm. People can choose what they do. It's this conscience choice that defines what's evil and what's good.

>>3901638
As I said you can still believe in God as an observer. It is human thought that we define God analogous to Santa giving people what they want. Prayer is not a vehicle to grant wishes. God is good according to belief so it doesn't make sense that some prayers are supposedly answered and others are not. Same with why bad things happen to good people and bad people have nothing happen to them. It just is and God choosing what to answer is not benevolent. So prayer is like laying out your hopes and God listens. Like a psychologist as silly as it sounds. A psychologist can't go out and fix all the issues their patients are struggling with. The best he can do is offer some sound advice like scriptures and texts. So we gave God the definition as some wish granter even though the basic definition of God says nothing about it.

>>3901674
You're slightly wrong here.

>>3901589
but Christ is the new religion
I'll deconstruct porneia without feeling a thing
nobody else open this image please

>>3901638
The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays.

>>3901684
At least explain why I'm wrong instead of saying that I am. You can do much better.

>>3901674
I would like to add that God is neutral in regards to prayer. If we are supposedly all his favorite children so he can't choose who to grant a prayer or not. It's all or nothing. So in order for God not coming off as bad or granting things that may be good for one person but harming another even indirectly he has to be neutral and just listen.

Assuming omniscience, you can claim that it serves a higher purpose of which we can never know anything about.
Or you can claim that God's definition of Good is different than our own, though that means talking about God as "Good" isn't accurate.
There are a billion answers OP. People were asking as early as Job.

>>3901704
I'm just about to go out sorry, so this is going to be short and likely not relevant. God does answer prayers in the way of making things 'the best'. God's plan is 'the best' plan, and it is my belief that our free will is if we want to submit to that. Prayer puts things in to action, and what is done is done for a reason, the reason being nothing more than it is what is to happen. I believe prayer is an important aspect to god as it allows people to practice faith, which is our justification and the trait that brings us closer to god (romans 5:1).

I'll keep this tab open for when I get back.
Reading back, it looks like my main argument is 'I believe so' and your main argument is 'I believe so', so I don't really know how far this can go.

I really like this thread, but I am a possibly-overzealous Christian demigod patrician etc, so I wont contribute to this thread for everyone's safety.

>>3901477
That's the wrong question.

The right question is: Why do you let evil happen?

>>3901629
This makes sense, except for the free will part. Even if our will somehow is free, and omnipotent being would still have knowledge of what would occur to every human being (going to hell, etc.). So why allow bad things to happen? I suppose it makes sense that temporary pain and loss ( the majority of which is in our minds) may be necessary for some type of spiritual growth, but ideas like hell are nonsensical. Permanent, undending pain is useless, so why would a loving God not rescue his sinners from hell, even against their own free will? If I was drowning, I would want to be rescued, even if I was incapable of giving permission or didn't want to live in that immediate moment.

>>3901780
sup holmes my baby be all like you cheat my man you doing me wrong and i be all like baby i love you but my love's meant to be spread like the wide ocean and you know you're selfish for keeping all that motion for yourself when you know i never told you we're exclusive. then she be all like you taking all my money and the landlord's gonna give me trouble with my rent and i'm all like baby you know i make you feel good that's my business i've got nothing between you and your landlord anyways i'm staying at my girl marie's house tonight. and she's all like i know you bringing me diseases home from that bitch you know she's got three kids and i'm like baby don't be mean come on now we gonna sit down have some wine and talk this shit out. then we fucked some. good shit.

>>3901780
I personally not arguing about God's existence since that is not what this thread is about even though earlier there were plenty of "God doesn't exist" comments. That's not the point. It's about how evil can exist under the premise of God and make it logically sound. I personally took up that God is a neutral party in regards to humanity stance as you can see in this thread. I'm not Christian by any means but I discuss philosophy of religion with Christians at university without making it an ad hominem against the existence of God like leddit atheists because that isn't what philosophy of religion is about. So in short feel free to post what you think possibly-overzealous Christian demigod patrician and if people get butthurt that's too bad for them and they can be like that. It makes good discussion for those who actually want to discuss it without getting personal about it.

If God is absolute and omnipresent, doesn't this imply that evil is also a part of God?

If God is absolute, doesn't that mean that evil is a part of God?

>>3901816
Yes, see >>3901532

Welcome to Gnosticism.

atheist here, but...
I think Leibniz actually had a pretty ok answer, i think Voltaire was being very unfair in Candide, he completely missed Leibniz' point.

Anyways, just read http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-evil/

>>3901818
Gnosticism in a nutshell: Our true goal is to see Sophia which the embodiment of knowledge but isn't the creator diety. That's the Demiurge which made humanity but at the time doesn't want humanity to see beyond the veil of illusion and wants them to live in suffering without seeing the truth which is Sophia.

In short the God in Christianity isn't the deity you should follow but that doesn't mean you don't hold Christian values if you don't follow God, or the Demiurge.

>>3901807
Currently on my phone, so if I respond it will be hours from now

>>3901823
>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-evil/

you should read this
http://archive.org/stream/LeoStraussOnEsotericismExotericism/Strauss-ExotericTeaching_djvu.txt

>>3901830
What should I read to understand Gnosticism better?

>>3901845
nag hammadi scrolls

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlcodex.html

>>3901845
>trying to read to understand gnosticism
A true Gnostic gets his revelations directly from Sophia.
I'm not even being a dick, that's the single common thread.

>>3901845

http://www.gnosticmedia.com/

>this thread

I seriously didn't think /lit/ was uneducated enough not to recognize one of the most well-known problems of religious philosophy. It's been covered pretty extensively throughout history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

Y'all niggas uneducated.

>>3901851
Well how am I supposed to do that if I barely even understand what Gnosticism is?

>>3901858
yeah we should just link to wikipedia in every thread

>>3901845
Sophia is the embodiment of knowledge as I said while I want to add the Pleroma is what you would call the creator diety even though that is inaccurate because it didn't create anything. It is creation itself. The demiurge, or Yahweh in Christianity, came from Sophia but it doesn't know where it came from and wants to take it out on what he created which is the our world and humanity. The goal of a gnostic is to see Sophia and telling the Demiurge that even though he created you doesn't mean that you should be thankful to him. So go online or go to the bookstore and pick up some literature on the topic. Go here for a general intro to it: http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm Hope that helps.

>>3901858
>The bird struggles out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas.

>>3901858
>citing wikipedia in an argument
You can't be serious but you are. Have your own thoughts on it. Then again I suppose that might not be able to do that you double nigger.

>>3901879
>>3901892
In this case, the Wikipedia link provided is appropriate, as it substantiates my point instantly and effectively:

That this thread is full of children who argue from a place of awkward ignorance about a classic topic on which hundreds of books have been written throughout the ages. None of you have addressed the question properly, instead devolving into childish tirades about "gnosticism," "lol what is satan" and "god don't exist yo."


It's frankly embarrassing, and I would have thought better of /lit/.

>gnosticism
>implying one can be saved by knowledge

>>3901897
>gnosticism
>childish

I think you're the one that doesn't read.

>>3901914
That was not the assertion. Your inability to formulate a relevant response to the question in the OP was.

But thank you for further proving my point.

>>3901897
Then contribute something. I can't take you serious if you just whine.

>>3901918
>Your inability to formulate a relevant response to the question in the OP was.

Again, Gnosticism is a pertinent solution to the problem raised in the OP.

Thank you for proving that you don't read and don't actually know what Gnosticism is. You seem to be mixing it up with Agnosticism, even though they are completely unrelated.

>>3901897
Go home demiurge you're drunk. You obviously forgot this is 4chan. I think reddit might better suit your mature tastes.

>>3901858
sup my nigga. so i'm at my girl marie's house and she's all like your solipsism shit's been getting on my nerves and i'm all like you trying to comprehend my business is getting all up in my shit it's very hostile you know. and she's all like your bitch sophia being saying shit about my kids that's some hostile shit. and i'm all like i ain't got no responsibility to what that bitch be doing in her spare time, and you know baby i'm coming home to you tonight. then she made me some chicken and we fucked some. good shit my nigger.

>>3901925
8/10 made me giggle would read again. I see what you did there.

Santa doesn't exist now does he?

>>3901946
>>>/mu/

>>3901845
Foucault's Pendulum brings the subject tangentially.
Actually, all books I've read by Umberto Eco bring, sooner or later, the subject of Gnosticism and Alchemy.

>>3901483
Why does go about these run about means to an end if he is all powerful and all knowing?

>>3901477
>If God is good, why does he let evil happen?
Because 'evil' is a social construct.

Any more stupid questions you'd like to ask?

>>3901477
Undemonstrated premise. "God is good."

>>3902439

He said "if", cuntwad.

>>3901652
A lot of people use the word "placebo" as derogatory.
Many, many things can be used as a placebo: prayer, homeopathy, magick, meditation, discipline, routine... this fact is a sign that the mind can heal and change things equally or even more effectively that any pill or substance using practically 'nothing'.
Many so called skeptics say placebos are ineffective or vain because using placebos is like "lying to yourself", but the human mind is, by definition, a lying being.

Define evil

yo why does this thread exist

>>3902449
If you are a cunt, then can I fuck you with a telegraph pole?
If Jews are sub-human, ought we shoot them or gas them?
If I argue from undemonstrated premises, aren't I just using a rhetorical device to ensure people agree with the premise if I demand they debate the conclusion?

Fuck off.

>>3902509
because god doesn't care.

>>3901477
Because God doesn't exist, or evil doesn't exist.
Evil doesn't exist.

>>3901594
Modern religious people are often worse. At least atheists have some hope of overcoming the edge, whereas Christians are just comfortable enough to not break out and into transcendence.

I had a Christian get seriously angry when he couldn't convert me and I realised later that his very butthurt about the world not doing what he personally wanted it to was a spectacular demonstration of his lack of sincere faith.

>>3902543
>If you are a cunt, then can I fuck you with a telegraph pole?

No, because that would make you a cunt too, and two cunts isn't better than one.

>If Jews are sub-human, ought we shoot them or gas them?

Gas them, it's more humane.

>If I argue from undemonstrated premises, aren't I just using a rhetorical device to ensure people agree with the premise if I demand they debate the conclusion?

No, you're just a twat.

>>3902615
>about the world not doing what he personally wanted it to was a spectacular demonstration of his lack of sincere faith.

Exactly, so he didn't refute Christianity, he refuted himself. So when you were referring to "modern religious people", you ought to have said "modern people who aim at the religious but fail".

>>3902622
I guess so. I've met practically no exceptions. But fuck this Kali Yuga. Fucking absence of authenticity in things.

>>3902632
>I guess so. I've met practically no exceptions.

That's because faith isn't easy, and if it were easy to acquire then it would be a temptation belonging to the Devil.

Because God got bored. He's making other planets and races and shit. We've become so much more predictable and much less fruitful than our ancestors, not to mention weve got the arrogance to say we're all intelligent, when the majority of his followers can be narrow indeed, shallow, sheep. He doesn't say brainwashed cunts (if he exists) he wants believers, true believers. But religion had just become another form of mass media, not really trying to live up to its own standards, just trying to convince everyone that we're living to the standards so that we can hate and cause wars easier. If I were a God, and my own followers were such a laughing stock, I'd have to turn the fuck away for a few moments too.

>>3902647
*minded
*want

>>3902617
Oh, I'm sorry, you appear to be buttpained because you were shown to be engaged in the use of rhetoric to defend propositions instead of reason.

You could choose to admit your sophistry and enter the world of people, or you could try to force me to drink poison when I ask for free gym classes.