/lit/ - Literature

Take your frustration to /r9k/, sperglet.

>>3899641

Very constructive.

>>3899629

>“Uncle Tims” — male feminist lapdogs eager to curry favor with their female and feminized masters

This is a degree of sensationalism I'd expect from some Jezebel nutjob. Shit article. Sage.

>>3899664
>b-but muh patriarchy

Face it, you're not enlightened you're a fucking tool if you think everything in this world is a social construct.

>>3899664

Also very constructive. How about addressing the issues and facts the article mentions instead?

this whole dialogue always seems like some estrogen-crazed babble. i think if you went up to the average man in the street and tried to talk to them about this they'd look at you're like you're some sort of dickless coward

If we should take this topic seriously in a philosophical manner, which i think lit is capable of, we should see both sides.

Both feminism and masculinism are equally valid of course, because of the equality in value between humans.

There is nothing wrong with feminism in the way that it states that females should be treated fairly, anyone in the western world should agree with this.

If someone says that females should have more rights, or are worth more than men and proclaim it to be feminism, they're just misusing our language, and we can only respond that we either disagree or don't understand what they mean by this.

Saging because it's a non existing dichotomy to me

>>3899688
>Both feminism and masculinism are equally valid of course, because of the equality in value between humans.
This. Inherently every person will try to escalate themselves to the top, to make their own lives easier and more comfortable. This isn't because they have some secret agenda, it's because they are (for example) a female and believing in girl power is just logically the right thing for them to do.

>>3899629
>Are you a feminist? Do you have criticism of feminism?
No, and yes. Put simply: I'm not a feminist because I'm not a female. And my biggest criticism of it is (in general) men's attitude of "fuck it I'll let the bitch win this argument to make her feel special" now extends beyond simple social interactions, and is in the courts etc. as biased law. (One example is in a (NY?) U.S. state, a man "cannot" be raped, but a woman can, because somehow, getting hard = consent. If I shoved a vibrator over some woman's clit until she got moist, does that equal consent? No, thus the double standard).

>Inb4 264 replies

/pol/ loves /lit/ because it's full of actual liberals, feminists and SJWs. People say 'go back to /pol/', but why would with such threads as these? It's like a flea finding a nice, clean human. You're basically asking for it.

I have to wonder what happened to modern thought to completely reverse the comparatively enlightened movements of the 60's and 70's to the sort of neoliberal-infused reactionary schools of thought like MRAs and the "anti-racist is anti-white" crypto-fascists that we have today.

This is all concurrent with the resurgence of literal fascism in Europe, too.

>>3899695
>I'm not a feminist because I'm not a female.
Except that you don't have to be a female to be a feminist...

>>3899702
Liberals were considered commies back in the 60's and 70s. Stop paying attention to academics and the media and look at who won elections.

>>3899702
Could it be a reaction to mass-immigration, radical feminism, the failed social experiments since 60's and 70's, the politization of education, the welfare state following, bankers running amok, the war against family, radical islam gaining foothold in europe?

I dont know. I just dont know.

I've considered myself a liberal for all my life, heck even more left than that. But fuck I just cant take all this shit anymore. I've seen to much of the lies, I've written them myself. I just cant stand it anymore.

>>3899675
Very constructive.

>>3899688
>equality in value
>wrong
>more rights
>are worth
>misusing

le sage goes in every field

>>3899710
>looking for constructive, well thought out posts on 4chan
Obviously there is the occasional stunning post, but you're doing it wrong m.

I'm in favour of not calling many current feminists 'feminists'.

>>3899702
>muh rose-colored history glasses and spoon-fed narrative
stay pleb, clone

As far as ive experienced sexism, men and women are pitted against each other over trivial matters because they arent educated to get past delicious controversy.

Ive personally been wrongly accused of "sexual misconduct" at college as I was helping a semi-conscious girl move her hair before she threw up, and was photographed and treated as if I was trying to get frisky with her. At the same time a few months later, my two hall mates essentially raped a girl though she did it voluntarily. Both incidents, among others, happened because both sexes acted moronically.

We need less anger and more courage to doubt ourselves and then accept ourselves. We should wonder if we do act sexist because of some unseen privilege, while at the same time wonder where this narrative of sexism comes from (chrstian narrative of sex being inherently ugly being an example)

>>3899753
tl;dr
>two good looking guys probably raped a girl and got away with it
>you being ugly helped a girl and got accused of rape

Yup, seems like you've been in contact with women

>>3899730
I said "comparatively", shitheel.

The baby boomers that comprised the vanguard of the counterculture in the past have successfully disenfranchised any and all politically inclined people of this generation and are effectively responsible for the angst that the fascists, moderate reactionaries, and leftists feel today.

However, I'm saying in comparison to the histrionic prescriptivism of the intersectionalists, the fascists' sociopathic Hitler worship and apocalyptic masturbation, and the general vacuity and inaction of the left, their aims were noble.

>>3899711
You seem to be misguidedly lashing out. So... she still have your balls in her purse?

>Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood and the American Dream — and Why It Matters

guess which sex actually is autonomous enough to do this without facing repercussions

hint: starts with M

I think feminism, feminists and whatever feminists are talking about are non-problems.

If I were into conspiracies, I'd say the bad guys are pushing feminism and anti-feminism to keep us from discussing real problems.

If you disagree, then please convince me with some decent arguments to participate in these retarded "debates".

>>3899810
"real problems" is relative

not being able to walk some place without being harassed is a "real problem" to women

Complicated stuff. White male and female privilege is real, and a majority of the SJW dialogue is coming from them. That's one thing that makes me hesitant about engaging with any of it. Another thing is that feminism means a lot of different things and most people don't bother to acknowledge that, which further complicates things.

And, finally, I absolutely am turned off by the histrionics concerning rape, as if that word hasn't evolved to include 50 new interpretations yet we still get the emotionally charged Pavlovian reaction and manipulation of the word that came with the original (well, not really) lurker in the shadows association.

The whole dialogue is a mess and its biggest participants are narcissistic college kids. Lets hope no legislation results from this muddled bullshit, god help the next generation.

>>3899813
>some rape is just not as important as other rape

good one /pol/

>>3899803
But "women" doesn't start with an "m."

Hint: women initiate a majority of divorces, statistically beat their children more than men, and the american dream is archaic and meaningless in 2013.

>>3899811
>not being able to walk some place without being harassed
And where does that happen on such a regular basis that it deserves our attention? (at least outside of 3rd world shitholes, which do have bigger problems)

>being harassed is a "real problem" to women
To _some_ women maybe. And/because "being harassed" is relative.

We already have decent laws against harassment/rape or whatever the fuck.
What do you want, exactly? What do you propose?

>>3899817
>eye rape is the same a forcible assaulting someone and penetrating them with your cock

okay.jpg

>>3899820
your reply doesn't make any sense

>>3899821
>And where does that happen on such a regular basis that it deserves our attention?

"our"? it happens in everyday life

>What do you propose?

cultural change

do you not know anything about feminism? it probably explains why you're against it

>>3899822
skip the strawmen. we're not going to exchange /pol/ shitposting

>>3899823
You're being way too vague for my taste.

>it happens in everyday life
No, it doesn't.
(See how easy it is?)

>>3899817
You realize you're doing your argument a huge disservice by intentionally interpreting things as offensively as possible, right?

But then again, how would you be able to take part in the conversation if you couldn't hammer things into the only shape you know how to play with?

>>3899829
this is precisely my problem with you. if you want to talk specifics then get to it otherwise i can't be bothered engaging in an introductory pamphlet shitfest

>>3899830
can you reply with something that i can't just reverse and make applicable to you?

>>3899823
To be honest, i doubt altering your culture will make that big a difference. You'd need to alter the cultue of those around you, or at least alter their perceptions. The best you're likely to do is create the sort of public scorn and disapproval that exists for overt racism. And even that will be a challenge unless you stick to the most blatant and physically, financially and psychologically damagind discrimination.
The big problem is going to be incentivization: there'd have to be a reward for society or at the very least for the people who display the least repressive behavior that would be easily detectible and visible as an incentive to others. And what would that be?

>>3899823
I hate talking with retards, but fine lets play your shitty fucking unoriginal game. HURR DURR WHAT DOESN MAKE SENSE???

What the feminists don't want you to know is that men actually live shorter, unhappier lives than women in the 21st century Occident.

>>3899836
you get out what you put in

>>3899837
why would they try to hide that information? it has nothing to do with feminism

also how do you measure unhappiness?

>>3899836
your reply had nothing to do with my post. it was just tired MRA talking points

>>3899823
How do you change a culture? Seriously, when has a group of people been able to do this without brainwashing/manipulative propaganda?

>>3899840
>why would they try to hide that information? it has nothing to do with feminism

Because it somewhat takes the edge off the whole victim angle feminists have going if they're forced to acknowledge that they're actually already better off than men.

>also how do you measure unhappiness?

Suicide rates are pretty telling, I think.

>>3899844
enculturation is basically brainwashing and everyone goes through with it

>>3899847
>Because it somewhat takes the edge off the whole victim angle feminists have going if they're forced to acknowledge that they're actually already better off than men.

but the feminist talking points revolve around the treatment of women by society. your statistics have little to do with the treatment of men

>Suicide rates are pretty telling, I think.

not good enough

>>3899843
Your post was a copypaste of some vacuous headline and a comment that only men are "autonomous" enough to do those things when women have been doing them for years.

>>3899847
additionally, your statistics only cover new york and they don't mention attempted suicides

you'll need better graphs

>>3899851
'boycotting marriage' only partly refers to divorces

'boycotting fatherhood' has little to do with beating children

and the rest was just a throwaway comment

>>3899850
>your statistics have little to do with the treatment of men

So why are we killing ourselves at such a prodigious rate if we're treated so well, then? You don't think this culture of hostility towards men cultivated by feminists affects our happiness?

>not good enough

More reliable than simply asking people how sad they feel; women will always exaggerate in that scenario, and men are notoriously under-diagnosed in mental health problems.

>>3899853
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

>>3899832
Point out where I intentionally interpreted anything a certain way so as to be able to psychologically dismiss it like you have been doing throughout the thread.

I swear. I hate MRA and pol as much as the next guy, but talking with the white feminists of lit is like talking to a bot. I'm convinced one of you has a script running.

>>3899853
I've posted three graphs now. See a pattern emerging? You can quite easily look up more statistics if you want (though I suspect you won't bother, since, like most women these days, you don't actually have any sympathy for men.)

>>3899857
>So why are we killing ourselves at such a prodigious rate if we're treated so well, then?

you tell me. this is your argument

>You don't think this culture of hostility towards men cultivated by feminists affects our happiness?

try comparing suicide rates before feminism if you want to make this argument

>More reliable than simply asking people how sad they feel

this is my point. it's too difficult to measure happiness for it to be included as an argument

>>3899701
>it's like a flea finding a nice, clean human
more like a bloated corpse spilling out disease

>>3899861
women feel suicidal four times more frequently than men, if you want to measure unhappiness; the issue is that men have more effective means of dealing with it (cars, guns etc) whereas women use less effective means that tend to make one feel more helpless when they don't work
of course I'm sure women are being hysterical here whereas these pathetic fussy men are just cracked under the strain of modern society
have you attempted suicide? are you trying to feel vindicated for it or something?

the part about men being afraid of being defective women in the article is pretty funny being that women have been defective men for around 2,500 years or so
this article also has a bizarre fetish for pedophilia accusations as though feminists are responsible for dumb media cycles but I guess you can't expect better arguments from these people

>>3899853

Women actually have more failed attempts.

I wonder why?

>>3899861
i'm not a woman and you should be finding graphs that specifically reinforce a point you are making in text. have you written essays before?

>>3899855
Throwaway comment for a thrown away concept. The American dream is bullshit.And you dont see how divorce rates affect a male's perspective of marriage? If the ROI lowers every year, less people are going to invest.

And you don't think female privilege in custody cases and abortion decisions affect fatherhood?

>"It's patriarchy, not "reverse sexism"!"
The theory of 'patriarchy' is inherited from first wave feminism, and just refers to the social structure that leads people to think they need to act out role in society that's different from the one they want. It's about forced conformity, being told what you should wear, eat, dress like, think, and act, and applies to the liberation of men as much as women.

>Are you a feminist?
Yes, I am. Like Marxism, it's a great tool for overlaying social structures and hierarchy, and critiquing a situation; as well as literary theory. I completely agree with the feminist theory of social determinism, and think both men and women dis-empower themselves in different areas due to ignorance and a lack of education.

>Do you have criticism of feminism?
Yes, many. Feminism has been completely destroyed by the dumb SRS/tumblr 'check privilege' bullshit, and by the people opposed to them. It's rapidly losing sight of it's egalitarian roots, and morphing into a twisted caricature of itself. All that's left is for modern humanitarianism and egalitarianism to adopt feminist theory, so we can start afresh and aim for a society that's a little more free from the pressure to conform to an antiquated identity.

Honestly, women's disregard for men's happiness these days, their utter lack of empathy, borders on psychopathic. As far as I'm concerned we are by far the more objectified of the sexes these days: women only care about what we can give them, materially and socially. Our actual feelings don't matter one bit.

>>3899869
Drinking a thimbleful of vodka with two aspirins is not an earnest suicide attempt.

>>3899877
>The American dream is bullshit.

sure thing buddy

>And you dont see how divorce rates affect a male's perspective of marriage?

you don't see how divorce rates reflect a female perspective of marriage? you think all the men being divorced are honest, hard-working men who had everything in life until their harpy wives took all his money, property, and children?

the point is that men are autonomous enough to simply not marry. they can survive without it, which is why they're doing it, and it is due to their political and social superiority i.e. 'the patriarchy'

>And you don't think female privilege in custody cases and abortion decisions affect fatherhood?

again, they're autonomous enough to avoid these things without repercussions. can you say something that actually challenges the point i'm making?

>>3899879
>As far as I'm concerned we are by far the more objectified of the sexes these days

>tfw when pressure is so strong that you're no longer natty.

>>3899866
Please, please, please leave the suicide issue alone. That diagnosis is equally as valid as the one that says women do it less often because they're more privileged. There simply isn't enough data to argue either way. And it ends up with giant oversimplifications and assumptions.

>>3899837
This has been so for all of human history. Well, the shorter part, in any case.

I dated a feminist once. Never again.

>>3899887
Men have never married because we had to, we married because we wanted to -- and we still do. It's just that it's too dangerous these days.

>>3899894
yeah it's really hard for men to not do things in marriage that make women want to divorce them

>>3899893

Was she gentle on you with the strap-on?

that feel when i'd give anything to be mollycoddled like a woman. this 'autonomy' shit fucking sucks.

>>3899899
I'm not offended by that as I find pegging pretty hot. She didn't do it though. She was shit in bed, actually.

>>3899894
>Men have never married because we had to
Arranged marriage, marrying because you impregnated someone, etc.

Also, shitty syntax.

>>3899897
>things that make women want to divorce them

e.g. experience any sort of material, physical or emotional hardship that compromises your status as 'provider'. e.g. be too busy killing yourself at work to be able to indulge every fucking selfish whim she has. e.g. be less physically attractive than the mail man.

do you honestly think every divorce is because of domestic violence or infidelity? or even the majority of them? women simply "fall out of love" every day, mate.

>>3899887
I find it hard to believe that a supposedly conscientious American is going to bat for the "American dream" ideal in a time with the biggest class gap in our nations history.

Also cant believe that a "feminist" thinks a woman depends on a man for financial security in 2013. Check the stats. Women, well, WHITE women are more employed and educated than men these days. Get your shit straight.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that women aren't autonomous.

>66 replies and going up

yes, good goyim. keep talking about feminism.
do you like it? do you hate it?
waste as much time as possible with this shit.

meanwhile, we'll keep spying on you and planning the next war and driving this world to shit.

>>3899862
>>3899850
>not good enough

I almost angrily wrote the following text in caps, but do you really think one could possibly be happy whilst attempting a suicide?

>>3899629

I'm an anti-feminist because I believe in equality, it's as simple as that.

>>3899894
>we married because we wanted to
Really? So nothing do do with social conformity then? You just wake up one morning and say "Honey, I love you so much that I think it's time to get the government involved."

>>3899915
The irony.

>>3899883
There's no such thing as an earnest suicide attempt
>>3899889
Yea, I don't think it can be argued either way; I'm just frustrated that the data is used to prop up lazy arguments so often.

>>3899899
most feminists are actually pretty vanilla, shit sucks
also one person told me she likes being dominated because she spends so much time critiquing power dynamics in her regular life that she wants to sit back in bed and be controlled; le stockholm syndrome face etc
yes i am the sex police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sODneKnkU8

>>3899866
>women feel suicidal four times more frequently than men, if you want to measure unhappiness
How are you getting away with not-referring to particular studies with your baseless claims?

>>3899911
>e.g. be too busy killing yourself at work to be able to indulge every fucking selfish whim she has. e.g. be less physically attractive than the mail man.

i think you should talk to a professional

>do you honestly think every divorce is because of domestic violence or infidelity?

no and i never said anything to imply that. maybe these women know its a loveless marriage (men fall out of love too) and take the initiative to end it. i'm sure if proposals were an even 50/50 split between the sexes then female proposals would see a drop too

>>3899912
where are these stats?

>>3899915
happy fifteenth birthday dude!

>>3899914
no that's not the point

not all unhappiness results in suicide and not all attempts in suicide result in death. for example, the graph that "wasn't good enough" did not mention suicide attempts, which would be equally as valid in measuring unhappiness

>>3899918
>There's no such thing as an earnest suicide attempt
U wot m8.

>>3899844
power/knowledge or bringing about a 'state of emergency' as Benjamin terms it

so there are options m8

>>3899918
>most feminists are pretty vanilla
where do you live dude/what kind of circles do you run in? I only ask because for me it's the exact opposite, not that i'm questioning your experience or whatever

>>3899913
>you can only care about one problem at a time

>>3899916
Missing out that marriage was first and foremost a religious institution where you got the blessing of god for giving your love to someone else than him.

>>3899930
I laughed and now I feel horrible.
Sorry Papa.

>>3899924
hehhhehe

>>3899922
>no and i never said anything to imply that. maybe these women know its a loveless marriage (men fall out of love too) and take the initiative to end it. i'm sure if proposals were an even 50/50 split between the sexes then female proposals would see a drop too

I take it you've never actually met woman. They are fickle and hesitating and easily manipulated. If you dont tell them what to do they will start doubting your ability to lead. And leave you.

>>3899930
10/10 post

>>3899946
>They are fickle and hesitating and easily manipulated

men are too

>>3899917
>>3899924
I'm 28 and completely serious. :)

>>3899920
I think "men commit suicide because women are evil harpies and feminism has made them lost control of their live" has more issues of cogency than a simple fact you can look up yourself
go do so and bitch at me when it's slightly lower than the one I made up, anyway

>>3899912
why is it that when men have been more privileged than women for thousands of years it's because they're superior but suddenly now society allows women to mercilessly dominate men in a way that does not at all imply female superiority?

>>3899939
eh, city feminists I know have been pretty ruff but I've met too many bourgeois feminists who aren't even into anal figging
this one was from an isolated midwest college so maybe she was making do with the lack of feminists around her but I dunno

>>3899927
>not all unhappiness results in suicide
Is this to be meant as 'non-intentional' (e.g. a guy slips on a banana peel, breaks his spine and dies) suicide? Would that even qualify as a 'suicide', and not as a contingent accident?

If not, you're still implying that some suicides result in something other than unhappiness. If not the opposite of unhappiness - happiness - what then?

>and not all attempts in suicide result in death.
Irrelevant to my point.

>>3899925
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/05/in-historical-first-women-outnumber-men-on-us-payrolls/

http://www.nber.org/digest/jan07/w12139.html

>>3899954
the point is not all unhappiness results in suicide so suicide rates are not a good way of measuring unhappiness. that's all there is to it.

>>3899953
well i mean that's their prerogative (if they're not into it they're not into it consent is the cornerstone etc. etc.) but most feminists i know are sexually uninhibited at least. If they want something a little bit 'kinky' or 'fetishy' they have no compunction in asking for it/discussing it

>>3899953
Because government intervention to uphold quotas and female affirmative action does not equate superiority.

Men is dominant physically. Biology supports this 100 percent.
Men produces more specimens in IQ-extremes (high and low). Biology supports this as well.
No civilization has ever risen to power with a female leading it.
This has happened all the time with men as leaders.
When women has gotten power it is because men has allowed them.

In fact, any kind of revolution is extremely damaging to feminism. During a revolution society defaults to violence. And when violence comes into play women always lose. Feminism actually thrive on fascism. The only way to maintain order is for a select minority to control the majority, otherwise they cant compete.

>>3899963
Can you name me one example, what, except unhappiness, encourages one to kill himself? That's all I am asking.

>>3899963
Despite no obvious aggregate relationship between the two series—either time series or cross-sectional— we find a strikingly strong and consistent relationship in the determinants of SWB and suicide in individual-level, multivariate regressions. This latter result cross-validates suicide and SWB micro data as useful and complementary indicators of latent utility. (JEL: I31, D6, H0, J0)

>cool assumption you got there

>>3899970
>No civilization has ever risen to power with a female leading it.

i love how this is actually legitimately used as an argument

Thing is, most of us agree that men and women deserve equal rights, etc. so fuck off with the "lel go back to /pol/" shit.

It's just the deconstructionist positions that fuck things up.

>muh gender roles
>muh social constructs
>muh sexual power

We ain't ready for that shit, yet.

>>3899973
it's beside the point. the point is about suicide being a measure for unhappiness

>>3899963
No but since happiness is hard to measure I think taking any stat (successful suicides, attempted suicides, etc) comparing it with similar stats and then coming to a conclusion will help figure out whats going on. I mean we dont have to pinpoint this down to a science if one sex is killing themselves off.

That being said, as far as I can tell women have kept all of their social benefits while mostly losing their social limitations while the opposite has happened to men. If we disregard what is fair and just, its easy to see why people would react to this in the way they are. Its just power.

>>3899970
appeals to history are kinda invalid because 'modernity' basically opened Pandora's box when it comes to gender relations

and if men are such great leaders how did they manage to fuck it up so bad

>>3899973
desperation perhaps?

>>3899980
men kill themselves because the point of male existence is to fight and die. it's biological fact

>>3899981
Yeah, modernity and endocrine disruptors.

>>3899979
>it's beside the point.
I see.

>the point is about suicide being a measure for unhappiness
Anyhow, what are your thoughts on how to properly measure unhappiness? Any suggestions?

>>3899985
It doesnt matter what narrative you want to dress this up in.

The stat is related to happiness, and should not be ignored or simply accepted as the end all

>>3899990
no it's not. it's related to biological reality. you want to argue against science? are you a creationist?

>>3899981
Because you see it from a short time span? History is filled with fuck ups where entire empires crumble fast and disappear. Yet none has arisen with a woman leading the new movement.

>>3899629
can i just point out that 'Intersectional Feminism' acknowledges class as intrinsic in hegemonic oppression and so intersectional feminists would acknowledge that the females are more 'privileged' in this sort of scenario

>>3899981
Funny how you used the term "Pandoras box" to describe that.

>>3899989
i don't think there is any good way of measuring unhappiness which is why i questioned it being brought up in the first place

>>3899991
How is suicide for men not related to their happiness?

Even if men are born this way, that doesnt mean that suicide is not related to happiness. Where are you getting this atrocious logic from

>>3899991
>it's related to biological reality
How?

>>3900000
it's not unhappiness it's a biological drive to die because that is what men were designed to do

don't let the jewish media tell you otherwise

>>3899986
the latter is part and parcel with the former ;)
>>3899992
and none have succeeded, 'nothing besides remains' etc., except for - and here's that word again - Modernity, a key tenant of which is based on rationality and the usurpation of biological impulse/'nature'. Strength isn't (and shouldn't be) evaluated in purely physical terms, and women are more than capable of leadership and intelligence

>>3899984
Desperation would encompass unhappiness; the majority of nouns that refer to our emotions with a negative value would.

>>3899992
the flaw here is you're comparing the history of men building up an empire and saying "well if one woman can't do the same thing as 1000 years of male rule then she is not as good as men"

kind of stupid tbh

>>3899974
Lets end this fucking debate on suicides:

http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/wp08-19bk.pdf

Happiness, Unhappiness, and Suicide: An Empirical Assessment

>happiness
>quantified

Don't get ahead of yourselves, anons. I don't think we're quite there yet.

>>3900003
Okay, then how should I compare?

If Jake has consistently been winning 100 meter races for 10 000 years while Jane hasn't once been able to make to the finish.

I cant say Jane is bad at running?

>>3900008
Lmao
The troll comes out of the closet once and for all

>>3900002
i see your point but i think there's a certain difference between the two. one doesn't have to be 'unhappy' to be desperate do they?

also i thought of another one; being 'numb', or anhedonic, can trigger suicide

>>3900009
>the usurpation of biological impulse/'nature'

You remember what ultimately ended up happening to Prometheus, right?

>>3900012
Jane has been keeping up with chores and has not once entered the 100 meters

>>3900012
compare ONE male leader and ONE female leader

>>3900009
Wait, you seriously think this "modern" society is going to last forever?

>>3900022
By that metric, neither did Jake, who was similarly too busy working his ass off or dying in some war waged by his masters.

>>3900023
not necessarily, but I think it marks a key turning point in humanity that cannot be undone
>>3900021
but i mean once we had fire we kept having fire so i don't see how Prometheus' fate comes into this. i mean sure he was punished but in an ambulance-at-the-bottom-of-the-cliff kinda way

I fucking hate this whole modern concept of "equality". It's brainwashed everyone into thinking every single human is the exact same. A layman's education in history is enough to teach otherwise.

>>3900000
>>3900000
shit thread, nice quints

>>3900035
>A layman's education in history

something you quite evidently lack

>>3900009
>Modernity, a key tenant of which is based on rationality and the usurpation of biological impulse/'nature'.

Not mentioning world war 1, world war 2, cold war.

Okay bro. Asserting strength is a must in international politics.

Angela Merkel does it well, though.

>>3900031
who were also called jake

>>3900035
Calm down, bud. We know people aren't inherently capable of the exact same things, we're just saying they deserve the same base opportunities and that underrepresentation should be accounted for.

>>3900037
You got me there!

>>3900033
the cold war example is interesting precisely because it wasn't to do with asserting strength but implying it. if anything it kinda illustrates my point that the concept of 'strength' has shifted

>>3900032
>but i mean once we had fire we kept having fire so i don't see how Prometheus' fate comes into this. i mean sure he was punished but in an ambulance-at-the-bottom-of-the-cliff kinda way

Missing the point that humanity was punished by the gods and as punishment we got the first woman "Pandora" who had her fucking box.

>>3899972
yea but in this case she didn't really want it at first and had never done anything kinky before
idk it was just like a weird justification

>>3900021
Should you be using a computer to type this?
someday we'll invent automated boots to stamp on naturalists' faces forever

>>3900035
Men with a greater understanding of logic and argument than you concluded eons ago that "just look at history!" has not been and never will be a point worth wasting time on.

>>3900043
>the cold war example is interesting precisely because it wasn't to do with asserting strength but implying it. if anything it kinda illustrates my point that the concept of 'strength' has shifted

Go back to school. Your ignorance is astounding. Do you know how many people died during the cold war era due to that IMPLIED strength.

>>3900048
this guy

>>3900048
i know people died but i'm saying the locus of power shifted from brute force to, as you astutely observe, 'implied strength'. we're both on the same page dawg

>>3899629
>Helen Smith was once a feminist, when that stood for equality and fairness. “Now it means female privilege,” she writes, “and I believe discrimination against men is every bad as discrimination against women.”
>“Uncle Tims” — male feminist lapdogs eager to curry favor with their female and feminized masters — are everywhere, Smith notes.
Sounds about right.

>>3900048
>We're learning about the Cold War this week in high school

The biggest problem with feminism is that it's hijacked the concept of egalitarianism in most minds.

If you say you're for equal rights between sexes, you're for egalitarianism, not feminism.

Except "Feminism" means nothing other than "Female domination" without the Egalitarian principles as a part of it, so it's insisted that it's definition is the same. Except that's bullshit. A total hijacking of a totally valid word that came before it.

I don't give a shit about the politics and power dynamics an blah, blah, blah - just don't you go screwing with muh ENGRISH RANGUAGE!

>>3900051
No, you moron. Thats not what I'm saying. It's called the cold war because we never experienced total armageddon. There were plenty of conflicts though.

It's not implied strength. It's indirect strength. Strength had to be asserted even though It couldn't be done directly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_related_to_the_Cold_War

>>3900015
>being 'numb', or anhedonic
Look, as long as the 'victim' is cognitively resonating and functioning properly, 99% of the cases a normal person WILL experience mental discomfort derived of his 'numbness' or 'anhedonicness.'

The 1% is reserved for the buddhist monks who, in some cases, have successfully brainwashed themselves into a constant 'non-emotional' state of bliss; _their_ suicides, on the other hand, could probably be 'spontaneous' in a way and encouraged by their lack of emotion -- perhaps -- of wonder (what happens when I die etc.), towards the act.

>>3900054
Language is fluid, fag.

>>3900036
I feel horrible that I wasted /lit/'s get on such a comment and without an image.

Going to go kill myself

>>3900044
...did you seriously just

i mean christ why don't you just say 'EVE CREATED ORIGINAL SIN GUYS WHY WON'T WOMEN FUCK ME' and be done with it

>>3900060
What are you trying to say? It is clear that you dont know your greek mythos. The greeks were punished with Pandora for stealing the fire.

>>3900057
It is, and I accept the death of words when it happens naturally.

Feminism willfully murdered a word. On purpose.

Feminism is guilty of word murder. Worder. It's a Worderer.

>>3899953
>why is it that when men have been more privileged than women for thousands of years it's because they're superior but suddenly now society allows women to mercilessly dominate men in a way that does not at all imply female superiority?

Men are susceptible to women because we actually love them. They have no such feelings towards us which gives them a clear advantage in gender warfare.

>>3900058
oh my god if i have to re-iterate this one more time you fucking parvenu:

>strength had to be asserted even though It couldn't be done directly

that's the point. war is not and cannot be what is once was because modernity paradigm shift etcetera etcetera.

>>3900054
>why isn't feminism traditional enough for me a bloo bloo bloo

you're being left behind.

>>3900068
Sorry that was a little hostile of me, apologies all around! But are you using that incident of mythology as an argument against feminism? Because it is, uh, fictional

>>3900067
>I can see all technological developments that will ever be made in the future

Don't you get it. You live in a small period of time where larger scale war has been disabled. This will most likely change in the future. As the positions of military strength is always pushed forward / backward.

Men, yes men and not women, has always found a way to kill each other to usurp power. Why? Power ensures our standing in society and ability to procreate.

>>3900034
Not all of them.

>>3900067
>parvenu
Great word. Very apt.

>>3900073
Oh, no. I'm not even the same guy who wrote about Prometheus. I just wanted to point out the part about Pandora.

Why would I ever use that as an argument. Sorry on my behalf also.

>>3900042
>same base opportunities
>that underrepresentation should be accounted for

And I guess you don't see any contradiction there.

lol @ the liberals ITT. same motherfuckers who believe family guy and colgate will be around forever if this thread is any indication.

>>3900074
no it won't dawg, it's the 'end of history' as Fukuyama would call it; modernity and all it entails (globalization, hybridity) came, saw, and conquered. the notion of 'power' and the way it is exerted has shifted with it; it's become more insidious

>>3900080
no need to apologize! robust debate! and to be honest my knowledge of Greek mythology is a little rusty anyway, should probably reschool myself

>>3900080
>>3900084

calm the fuck down with this lovefest, you faggots. you're still on 4chan.

>>3900045
I should add that everyone is justified to their own kinks and so on but I'm justified to bitch about them for no reason; it's my privilege

>>3900054
when you grow up you learn that political/theoretical movements don't have obvious goals and can't be hijacked any more than they can be defined
shit, people still ask me "if feminists are for real equality, why don't they reign in tumblr feminists?" Who is the leader of feminism that would reign this in? Who owns feminism?

>>3900066
That's why they bitch about women on anonymous internet message boards...?
The 'women' you love don't actually exist sorry

>>3900044
>implying men and women weren't once united in flesh, all love seeking this unity again
stay mad πολλοῦ

>>3900084
But in a sense I guess it goes to show how deep and firmly established the demonization of women as "the others" have existed in western civilization. Ie. way before christianity.

The greeks feared women because they had a strong emotional impact on them.

>>3900083

And I would bet it will shift again. The world is young still.

I think one mistake feminists consistently make is isolating culture from genetics, when the two are in fact inextricably linked in a sort of perpetual feedback loop. The modern woman is essentially the product of millennia of selective breeding by men, based largely on traits complementary to a patriarchal household and society. It's a fact of nature that predators are 'more sentient' than prey, and I think you can apply this concept on a relative scale to human sex relations too. No wonder women aren't fit for important, high status roles.

>>3900091
>women as "the others"

every single person that isn't me is the other. fuck off. pandora happened to be a woman, but her femininity was irrelevant to the opening of the jar. if anything, it's a feminist myth since women are always asking men to open jars. fuck off with your hack freshman interpretation.

>>3900091
Yes, because no male negative fictional characters existed before Christianity... it's not like Zeus himself was portrayed as being kind of a jerk.

DEMONESATIN F WOMYN!!!1

>>3900098
oh yeah it's definitely going to shift. but look at it this way; due to technological and social advances, i'm currently participating in a discussion on a global forum with people who live on the other side of the globe.

tomorrow i'm going to catch a flight to a place hundreds of miles from where i am now. It will take about 2 hours.

these ubiquitous tenants of Modernism, these technological advancements, just aren't going to dissipate. i don't agree with Fukuyama, but i do think that one chapter has closed and another has opened

>>3900099
many modern lib arts academics consider science to be simply one narrative and they reject any notion of a "grand narrative" that people like you insist upon.

Won't we stop needing women when we are able to reproduce without them? Make men, build robot bitches, and women would just pretty much die out.

>>3900105
>>3900107
An angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a "beautiful evil" whose descendants would torment the human race.

What? It's literally what happened.

A good creation mythos usually have some kind of story for both men and women.

>>3900110
What a meaningless comment. Why even bother?

>>3900113
what the hell are you talking about? i was explaining shit to your dumb ass.

>>3900112
>beautiful evil

Ha. Even the Greeks knew women for the scoundrels they are.

>>3900111
>tfw you don't have a genius robot qt3.14 gf

>>3900099
women were bred to lead the household; men were bred to work
the household is the model of modern governance; work is increasingly automated while governance is more crucial than ever
no wonder all governments led by men have been so lousy
I think it would be a good idea to gas all amateur evolutionary biologists to preserve genetic hygiene

>>3900091
To be fair, the Greek complex is probably the most patriarchal of the ancient world. Egyptians are generally held to be more 'egalitarian' and Roman women had a degree of autonomy above Greeks. This does come out of the emotional impact, though (I think). Greeks actually thought that the penis was a separate organism (no I can't cite where I read this and it's foolish to say "the Greeks thought" anything as a monolithic bloc) so you know where that's going

>>3900107
>implying Zeus wasn't doing the best he could with what he had
It's like that line in the Iliad, "This game is rigged, man. We like the little bitches on a chessboard."
but if you're referring to Zeus raping people it's said to be more like seduction even tho it's translated as rape but shit man idc

>>3900128
>doesn't know the difference between evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology

>>3900122
Here is another nice on. The last of the plagues that flew out of the box was ... Hope.

You see the Greeks saw Hope as something very dangerous. Because it meant that you would relinquish your own agency and put faith in the hands of someone "greater or more powerful than yourself", ultimately leaving you a slave to that persons will.

>>3900112
I love how you completely ignore their points and just keep ranting.

A good look on the workings of divorce court suffice to see how women are actually favored (not treated equally), at least in this aspect of society. It's appalling how even in divorce-cases where the woman cheated, she still gets custody of the child and monthly money from the dad, and sometimes even the marital house to boot. I don't only speak from experience, but also the numerous anecdotes available, as well as the idea in law that the woman is unconditionally the 'superior' (as in: more important for the child's upbringing) parent. A marriage nowadays is just a ticking timebomb, and with one autograph from the woman the man is forever in debt to her, even if he did nothing wrong.

As for suicide rates, if memory serves me well, women attempt suicide more times than men, while men succeed more at it. I have no proof of this, so take this with a grain of salt.

>>3900128
>Has not read the Odyssey
>Doesn't understand the pivotal role of a women in Greek Society
>Doesn't understand the intricate web of different schools of thoughts in different Polises
>Spartan women were for one very autonomous.

>>3900142
What points did they have, that was relevant to what I was saying about Pandora?

>>3900139
Wasn't Hope the only thing that remained on the bottom of the box before Pandora closed it?

I'd rather have a slightly unequal society than an artificially engineered equal one.

Here's what we do: egalitarian math for the capitalists, individualist religion for the spiritualists.

Women and men are ascribed a lifetime value of x. Men live shorter lives so their instalments of x are larger and fewer, while women have smaller and longer payment. Considering, outside of the few cases where non-consensual pregnancy to term could be avoided with abortion, pregnancy is an optional opting out of payment, with a return in the early payments for the new person which can be held in guardianship. Everybody has to rabbit

>The people who work for an hour in the vineyard in the cool of the evening receive just as much reward as those who have toiled there all day long in the hot sun. Why shouldn’t they? Probably no one deserved anything. Or perhaps they were a different kind of people. Christ had no patience with the dull lifeless mechanical systems that treat people as if they were things, and so treat everybody alike: for him there were no laws: there were exceptions merely, as if anybody, or anything, for that matter, was like aught else in the world!

>>3900151
If I recall correctly she couldn't help her curiosity and let hope out eventually.

Sounds like a woman doesnt it? :)

>>3900154
Especially since you can't engineer equality.

>>3900167
>notsureiftroll

I can't seem to remember that part. Too lazy to check wikipedia.

>>3900136
but if it we include biologists we can get Dawkins' and Harris' fans in one foul swoop unless ur chicken

>>3900145
yea, women's roles were pivotal, but a lot of the attitude toward women is still very much "stay in the home." It is true that these attitudes differed from place to place, but I've generally found more sexism among Greeks than Romans. Was the standard tombstone still "she weaved" for Roman women? As far as Egyptians they've just been held up by some feminists as being a free liberated etc society before evil western civilization came in so there's probably bias there but whatever.
it's hard to say one way or another about Spartan women, tho. Beauvoir viewed them as uniquely pro-women, but we have a lot more on their practices than on their attitudes
and a lot of times our information is from people talking about them, often as a mimetic example rather than for history
in that regard I really like stories about Etruscan women, even though they're generally supposed to be negative
http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/theopompus/index.html
>Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often, sometimes along with the men, and sometimes by themselves. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. They do not share their couches with their husbands but with the other men who happen to be present, and they propose toasts to anyone they choose. They are expert drinkers and very attractive.
>tfw no Etruscan gf

>>3900223
Well the notion of home was perhaps the most important concept for any greek. So for a woman to be at centre of that wouldn't really be sexist?

The overwhelming majority of greek citizens were farmers and performed back breaking labour with their slaves.

It's pretty weird to judge sexism from our modern context of those terms.

I'm a feminist, we have an awful system where women and men are treated badly because their gender, women are specially bad treated in some regards that feminist have argued long enough, so educate yourself.

There're much more other problems to deal with, and probably more important for the happiness of all human beings, but that doesn't mean that we should disregard feminism.

>>3900584
Do we also have a system where women are treated kindly simply because of their gender?

>>3899835

I'm a bit of an idiot so maybe I misunderstood what your saying but the reward appears to be some form of sexual favors on the males end.

"White-knighting" in effect, the women and men both gain something from it. Women gain power while men hope to gain the affections of the women they are helping, or in their mind protecting.

Of course, this falls short because frequently the women they are helping still desire the alpha male type specimen. Still, the white knights have the perception this will help them and for some I'm sure it does. Anyways, that seems to be a lot of the incentive for why both sides are acting they way they are.

>>3900609
rephrase this as an argument... or something.

Wow, what a shit thread.

>>3900631
We also have a system where women are treated kindly simply because of their gender.

>>3900631

It seems to me that we have a system were women are both treated badly because of their gender yet women are also treated kindly because of their gender. Do you agree?

>>3900617
>white-knighting
>alpha male
>women gain power

>>>/fit/, >>>/b/, >>>/r9k/ any of these, please.

>>3900640

Yea, it is a generic argument and I understand that. Explain to me how it doesn't hold some degree of water. He asked for an incentive, I offered one.

> 204 posts and 14 image replies omitted

i LITTTERALLY pee myPANTS xD

>>3900636
> treated kindly
every human being should be treated kindly. Maybe an example?

we should strike for men being treated that way too, this is not a zero sum game

>>3900308
ah! I didn't notice this until now, sorry
I think it would be more accurate to say that family was perhaps the most important concept, if we're speaking of domestic matters, and the father is still the head of the family. It's true that women might've avoided hard labor (although jobs are always shared the poorer you get), but ideally women were not educated except when they were taught never to speak until spoken to. As was said earlier, though, this is a generalization--you do get women like Diotima or whoever supposedly taught Socrates or whatever--but a lot of Greeks thought women were gross and dumb and monstrous.
I do try to avoid being too wedded to modern ideas of gender, but I also try to avoid overusing the "it was the past and they did what they had to do to survive" argument

also Greek stereotypes of women were that they liked to get drunk and fuck what's up with that

>>3900002
>>3899973
Honor, legacy, reputation. Hello, Japan. This is the literature board, if you forgot, try some reading.

>>3900075
Unless Jane won a few races, yes, they're all Jakes and Slave Jakes. See Jake run. See Jane power hegemony

I just learnt that feminists object to the term 'Patristics'. Why the fuck would you even bother with a feminist reading of Christian literature?

>>3900110
>>3900118
You're wrong, though. One thing is that science being "simply one narrative" /is/ a grand narrative. Do you know what grand narrative means? Look up Lyotard on wikipedia. And then, science's linear progressive narrative was criticized by the postmodernists (or "modern lib arts academics) in the 60s/70s.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-progress/

Stop talking out of your ass

>>3900650
How about men holding doors open for women, how about women getting the good end of divorces, how about men paying for womens shit all the time, how about women is actually not expected to hold a job and provide for the family, how about women getting away with anything because men also do shit for them for free?

>>3900143
people talk about this like it happens all the time but no one can back it up with any evidence

>>3899629

Schopenhauer was 100% correct. The modern day 'girl gamer' for example, can be described perfectly by him:

>"Neither for music, nor for poetry, nor for fine art have they any real or true sense and susceptibility, and it is mere mockery on their part, in their desire to please, if they affect any such thing."

>"it lies in woman’s nature to look upon everything only as a means for winning man, and her interest in anything else is always a simulated one, a mere roundabout way to gain her ends, consisting of coquetry and pretence."

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/onwomen.html

>>3900729
There are tons of studies on this phenomenon.

>>3899811
Only a woman could put on short shorts that expose the base of her buttocks, put on a tight sleeveless shirt that accentuates her breasts and exposes cleavage, cover her face in bright makeup, red lipstick dark eyeliner that cartoonizes her facial features, put on uncomfortable high-heeled shoes that force her to swing her hips in a culturally-sexualized manner, and then complain about getting catcalls. It's not a sexist response, it's a natural human response to say, "Well, what the hell is so special about you?" The real patriarchal social construct is the idea that women need to dress up like circus clowns everyday, not the men who publicly make fun of them for it.

>>3900739

>being this bitter

did he die a virgin? his whole philosophy reflects his dire-omega being

>>3900754
Apparently he fathered an illegitimate child. I think I read that on Wiki once.

>>3900719
wtf are you talking about. I haven't hold a door for a women in years, I'm not dating a girl without a job. In my country the one who gets the custody gets the money from the ex-partner.

what country are you living in?

Stop living in a shitty country or change the laws, and that's all because women are suppose to be weak, is a gender view that feminist is trying to overcome. Don't listen to stupid MRA, they fights is rightful but their reasons are wrong.

>>3900749
Boom. This, 100%, over and over again. Couldn't have said it better.

>>3900749
What feminists tend to mean by complaining about catcalls is that people are holding standards against them, as individuals, deciding what is appropiate clothing, what is too sexual; standards that tend to come out by perpetuating reductionist ideas of what women are or should be (ie >>3900739).
Of course, this is carrying some silly liberal PC idea that every person deserves the right to be "themselves", stereotypes are wrong, that we can take our political theory and force it to churn culture into our poorly developed utopic ideal via fascist-psuedo-marxist technique. You can't disregard feminism for the childishness of its followers, who seem to be now taking to attacking the lowest droves of tumbler feminists as if it makes their poorly understood ideologies any more genuine. Gender theory is (was) a valid field initially developed by very intelligent people with relevant insights, their teachings just had to go through the natural process of dilution, distortion and appropriation for the sake of so-called political action.

>>3900719
>men holding doors open for women
lol
>women getting the good end of divorces
like the other anon, I don't really see examples of this in the real world, or at least not to the extent that MRAs complain about. My parents are divorced and my dad wasn't destroyed by it or whatever. Anyway, a lot of this comes out of ideas that women are responsible for children anyway
>men paying for womens shit
this is called 'benevolent sexism,' it assumes women aren't capable themselves and it only benefits attractive women (and creates an unhealthy incentive to wear makeup, revealing clothing, etc for other people rather than oneself)
>women is actually not expected to hold a job and provide for the family
as above, but how about men doing less than half the work around the house and raising children? is this not 'real' work?
your other point is the same as before

>>3900739
I sincerely hope this isn't the only thing by Schopenhauer you've read, but I know that isn't the case.
The only 'girl gamer' I know works at a comic book store and knows more about nerd culture than you ever will; make dealings.
Are you the same anon that thought someone was doing viral marketing for videogames here?

>>3900749
If I see someone dressed as a chef I'm not going to start hollering at them asking to make me a cake.
>The real patriarchal social construct is the idea that women need to dress up like circus clowns everyday, not the men who publicly make fun of them for it.
oh wait, you're completely divorced from reality; nvm gg

>>3900775
>>3900772
>>3900719
Also, joining the debate without bothering to read any actual theory is as dumb and radical and fallacious as whoever you think you're debating when you attack your misinformed projected swathe you've labeled feminism or liberals or whatever, and you won't accomplish a single thing other than maybe foolishly reaffirming your anger or assumptions. Blood-orange juice

>>3900784
>If I see someone dressed as a chef I'm not going to start hollering at them asking to make me a cake.

Yeah, but you're not a pack of niggers.

>>3900787
but I am
I'm not sure why that makes it ok in any event

>>3900775
>Gender theory was a valid field
I know. I read their works when I studied English in college: Showalter, Irigaray, Chodorow, Gilbert, Gubar. If I was more of a constructavist, I'd probably agree with all of it. Unfortunately, their views have been perverted beyond salvageability. It'd be better at this point if women's rights advocates just skipped the constructavist arguments and focused on real legal equality.

I believe at one time Feminism was truly a desire to give women more political/social rights (voting, etc.) but its bastardized modern form is a desire to be above men, and to make men pay for the oppressions of women throughout history that they had no part in. Feminism kills me. It states a woman can dress like a total slut, yes I said SLUT, and if a man glances at her suddenly he is a misogynistic pig. It's like a man just can't doing anything right. A man opens a door for a woman. "eww chivalry is part of the patriarchy I didn't ask for you to treat me like an inferior". A guy offers to work and provide for his family and tells his wife she can stay at home if she wants. "ohmygod you sexist pig you're oppressing me how dare you say I would ever want to live domestically" and the list goes on and on and onnnnnnnnnn. Feminism doesn't make sexes equal, it's just women wallowing in self pity and pretending they are the oppressed female masses of the past.
>oh and I myself am a female so inb4 butthurt Feminist argument #1 "you're not a woman you have no say when it comes to Feminism"

>>3900784
>If I see someone dressed as a chef I'm not going to start hollering at them asking to make me a cake.

It depends on the context. If I saw someone needlessly dressed as a french chef on a kitchen-less airplane, I'd probably bust his chops a bit. I must be perpetuating the socio-economic power structure that portrays chefs as objects rather than people, amirite?

>>3899709
>I've considered myself a liberal for all my life, heck even more left than that.
Sure thing, bud.

>>3900792
The question was if it was believable, not "okay". Like, I can imagine a group of bored low-income teenagers making fun of some man walking down the street in chef's whites. You might not, but I wouldn't expect yo to to hand out cat calls either. I know you weren't making a serious argument with the analogy, the poster clearly couldn't take one, but that's why my response wasn't either.

I do genuinely disagree with your idea of prescribing things "ok" though, hence why I put it in quotes. I don't understand the imperative towards an "equal" or "fair" world, the only society I can imagine achieving that is a nonexistent, or maybe inhuman, one. Why chase it?

>>3900784
>I don't see examples of divorce inequality in the real world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYb5xSd4PRs

Btw. Every time you dismiss female privileges in society as "benevolent sexism" you're allowing them to continue, and perpetuating the idea that feminists are exclusively about female power, and only care about notions of equality and egalitarianism as long as it gets them half way there.

(note: please ignore the commentary that occasionally interrupts the video)

>>3899803
Can you name me some barriers that exist that stop women from boycotting marriage, Motherhood and the American Dream?
[Hint: You can't]

>>3899811
>not being able to walk some place without being harassed is a "real problem" to women
What's your definition of harassed? If you're using the tumblr definition of being rapestared or being called a sexy bitch on public property, I don't think you have an argument.

>>3900808
go home
>>>/pol/

>>3899857
>So why are we killing ourselves at such a prodigious rate if we're treated so well, then? You don't think this culture of hostility towards men cultivated by feminists affects our happiness?
it's because men are more insular and go through more harsh lives working more demanding high-stress and dangerous jobs.

>>3900804
post feet

>>3900805
If you interrogate women about whether their clothing is appropriate for where they're going then I guess your analogy works
you're kind of a dick either way and you should work on that

>>3900817
well, in terms of what's "ok," the poster was sort of implying that women deserve to get catcalls. I don't know if it's possible to stop everyone from being sexist in public or whatever, but I can at least question people like that poster on his motives, though I don't know if anyone on /lit/ has the confidence to harass women in public anyway

>>3900818
haha, I was going to sarcastically give that example but I didn't think anyone would care.
the guy stopped paying child support for some reason (he was a lawyer so presumably he could pay) and was disbarred because of that fact. He had to pay more than his income because his income was effectively zero. Of course, /pol/ ignores all of this and circle jerks about 'evil women' instead. It is a /pol/ troll, whether you got it from there or not.
How does benevolent sexism mean that I don't care about it? It just means that these aren't desirable for anyone, men or women.

>>3899887
What are some things preventing women from living lives without a male providing for them?

>>3899922
Maybe women divorce more often because they benefit more from divorce than men do, maybe you might want to look into how family law is set up.

>>3899975
I love how you don't actually address their point.

>>3900853
>in terms of what's "ok," the poster was sort of implying that women deserve to get catcalls.
>stop everyone from being sexist in public

1. You're assuming it's wrong to believe cat calls can be justified without any argument
2. You're assuming it's sexist without any argument

Where the hell did you pull sexist from? You think trannies don't ever get their ass beat walking the streets a girl would get cat calls? The act might be inherently rooted in sexual desire and gender roles, but those factors don't automatically place something you decide to declare undesirable under sexism. Sexism is discrimination or prejudice based on someone's sex, if you didn't realize. I'm discussing you're claim of sexism because I assume this is why you've decided he is wrong to come to a rational conclusion where cat calls are justified.

>>3900007
Male Disposability. A tribe of 10 men and 1 woman can only produce 1 child. A tribe of 10women and 1 man can produce 10 children. Thus men are less valuable than women. the ESS of men:women is roughly 50/50, therefore we can expect men to be disposed of more easily.

>>3900836
how about this you contrarian piece of shit
http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whether-or-not-to-share-this-story

"It’s not the first time I’ve been bothered multiple times. As such, I’m still amped from the teenagers on the first train. So when this man leans across the aisle into my personal space and asks me, yes, what are you reading, I assertively but calmly tell him to please leave me alone, I am reading. The man stands up, moving to the front and muttering angrily over his shoulder that it isn’t his fault I’m pretty.
...
It is at this exact moment I realize Bicycle Man is not taking it well. The seemingly annoying but normal man a moment before is now talking to himself, becoming agitated. In my years of being bothered by total strangers, I have learned how to hold a book and seem to be reading while taking in everything around me. He is glaring at me, and says out loud in an angry baby talk voice “PLEASELEAVEMEALONEI’MREADING. PLEASE LEAVE ME ALOOOONE."
Then he’s up out of his seat and things go from bad to worse. He begins pacing back and forth in front of his bike, alternating between screaming something about his mother being dead and calling me a slut, a hoe, a bitch. I am frozen in place. There is one other person in the car, and I’m not sure if trying to change seats will draw more attention to me or less. I trust my instincts and show no fear, doing my best to appear to be calmly reading my book, never once looking up to acknowledge the abuse he’s hurling at me. There are four stops left until we reach the main downtown station where there are lights and security officers. Those four stops are virtually abandoned, and I have no guarantee that leaving to wait for another train won’t motivate him to leave the train as well, leaving us potentially alone at a metro station platform just outside of Compton. I’m frozen in place, trying to plan what I’m going to do if he decides to take all this rage directly to me. I’m ready to kick him, scream, make enough noise that he panics and flees.
At this point he’s punching the walls and doors of the train, screaming at me. He stares me full in the face and screams
SUCK MY DICK, BITCH
YOU BITCH
YOU STUPID BITCH
YOU GODDAMN HO
IF I HAD A GUN I’D SHOOT YOU
I WOULD FUCKING KILL YOU BITCH
This went on for two stops. No one came to see what was happening. The man in the last row was as frozen as I was. I’m not angry he didn’t come to my defense. He was smaller, older, and frailer-looking than I was."

>>3900009
Leaders should be genetic freaks, their IQs should lie on the extreme end of the spectrum. There is more biological variation within males, therefore we will find more men capable of leadership roles than women. Moreover, testosterone makes one more assertive, which is another good leadership quality.

>>3900878
Not him, read a book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amina

hurr durr they have to rise to power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

fuck off

>>3900892
Was there any reason to post this?

>>3900881
I guess I'm using sexism loosely here, but I'm not sure what to call it. Misogyny isn't really right. It's usually just justified under a dumb "boys will be boys" thing.
I don't think I really need an argument for why catcalling is wrong, though; there's a way to compliment people respectfully but shouting at them across the street isn't one of them. I mean, it's like trying to give an argument for why the "NICE BOOK FAAAAAAAAAG" copypasta is funny.

>>3900804
agreed
and I agree with OP's article

tumblr/university feminists are a few decades too late to do any good. Most of them are incredibly insecure and hateful, at least as bad as any 'bitches and whores' 4chan type.

There's not much to argue about really. I just hope this becomes the consensus eventually.

>>3900906
I wasn't arguing his point, but anyway, more male leaders have created and maintained civilisation than female leaders.

>>3900918
It's called ostentive definition dawg
Was the poster not implying that "tumblr definition of being rapestared or being called a sexy bitch on public property" aren't the only harassment women face? I'm not very good at reading so idk

>>3900921
but university feminists find my insecurity and hatefulness the hardest to deal with
how many 'tumblr/university feminists' have you been in contact, anyway

>>3900918
I think they were debunking the myth that being harassed is not a real problem for women,
At least tumblr produces material, all /lit/ does is make passive agressive statements about other anons while pretending to talk about "literature"

>>3900931
*are the only harassment
i think idk

>>3900931
>how many 'tumblr/university feminists' have you been in contact, anyway

a couple I guess. You can just look at tumblr and see what girls say. Insecure man-mating catladies I mean.

haven't bothered to read your posts. Are you the radical feminist or not?

>>3900940
if you don't read my posts why would you ask about them, that's like a total catch 22
the problem with "just look at tumblr" is that most times that means "just look at these cherry-picked posts I found on /pol/"
idk why I would call myself a radfem here since few people understand what feminism is, much less radical feminism

>>3900933
I'd talk more about literature here but out of the threads on the front page:
>Freud had some good ideas
>why do people hate on readers?
>wot R U reading
>[writing that I hope is a troll]
>gender in Hunger Games
>I am looking for a read that could boost my intelligence.
>Sam Harris was right!!!
among some other threads where the most you could do is post a book you liked in some way, I'm not finding much to talk about
maybe I should go do some gardening idk

Are you a feminist?
NO, I'm too anti-individualist to support feminism
.
Do you have criticism of feminism?
The above and that I don't agree that the patriarchy hurts (or at least hurts enough to desire some alternative) for men.

Ever watched Blue Valentine?

Ryan Gosling falls in love with this girl who was just recently impregnated by another man. He finds out, supports her through her decision to have an abortion/not actually get an abortion, gets jumped by her baby's daddy, marries her, raises the daughter that isn't his, and then has to listen to her crap about his "potential" all the kind. She can't comprehend that he loves her and is happy with just being a husband and father. In the end she asks for a divorce and he walks away with nothing. This was a guy who put up with shit and offered unconditional love, and it was all for nothing.

I know a few guys who have been in this situation, and Gosling sums it up perfectly in the movie: guys fall in love/are romantic and women just settle for whoever has a job, etc.

That's the state of the American male.

>>3900975
solution: stop being a needy wuss

>>3900970
>if you don't read my posts why would you ask about them, that's like a total catch 22
because you responded to mine and I can't really interpret what you mean

>idk why I would call myself a radfem here since few people understand what feminism is, much less radical feminism

yeah this is the only response I EVER get when trying to talk to a supposed feminist. They're not interested in informing anyone. It's just a big circlejerk / pity party

>>3900975
>Ever watched Blue Valentine?
>Ryan Gosling...
no

>>3900986
that's not a solution if you actually want a family

but yeah I'd never date a single mother or anything that pathetic. I'd rather be a total dickhole than settle for a fat/hateful/selfish girlfriend

>>3900906
Are you actually claiming the Joan of Arc was a leader and not a puppet?

>>3900996
>that's not a solution if you actually want a family

wrong. it's possible to be loving and strong.

>>3900992
the catch 22 thing was a so fahnny joge about people who misuse the phrase, not much more

my point in not identifying as a radfem isn't that I'm not a radfem but that if I described myself as even a feminist on most boards I would get shitposted ad nauseam
it's just tiring to explain what "real feminism" is to people as much as what "real Marxism" is and so on, especially when people ask you so they can shoot it down rather than to actually learn

I really should be tending to my garden tho

>>3901015
I guess

but there's a limit to how much of 'the dick' I can supply before it's not even worth calling a relationship. And now that slut-shaming is abolished, girls have no shame going after the biggest baddest dude no matter the context

The feminist movement summed up

First wave: completely justifiable complaints

Second wave: some legitimate points

Third wave: almost none if any legitimate points (at least in regards to the developed world) and now about female superiority rather than equality

>>3901018
also people don't understand that radical feminism critiques mainstream feminism rather than being a more extreme form of it but whatever
it doesn't matter, this doesn't matter

>>3901023
this guy gets it right, though
radical lesbian separatism was preferable to admitting that sexism hurts men too
also racist feminism was better than modern feminism
you basically don't need to educate yourself beyond this point, or at all

>>3901023

>about lesbian superiority

fixed

>>3901035
the glorious era of lesbian supremacy has passed, friend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyv4PPw4cJ0
>I'll return to the bosom where my journey ends, where there's no penis between us friends
lovely

>>3900892
My applause is moderated only by your tripfaggotry.

Once again, why don´t you become a regular anon?

>>3901020
>but there's a limit to how much of 'the dick' i can supply before it's not even worth calling a relationship

please elaborate

>>3901015
>>3901112

I'm the guy who posted the Gosling movie.

Basically, I think doing things the conventional way for men in America isn't worth it anymore. By conventional I mean the whole going to school, getting a job, getting promoted, marrying a woman, having kids, buying and car and house, etc. It's not worth it because it requires time and effort and in the end it can all be taken away because of divorce.

In America there are so many people nowadays who don't want to put effort into achieving things and it makes me wonder why I should bother just to have it all taken away. Gosling's character, sure, you can call him a "wuss" or a "beta male" or whatever, but the whole point I was making was that here was a guy who actually loved someone else despite all the shit and in the end he was left just walking away. Something as simple as love is meaningless to a lot of people. Now, try loving someone unconditionally and then putting in the effort to achieve "the American dream" (I put that in scare quotes because I recognize it's problematic to some).

Throw in the fact that the economy is still not the most stable and the future isn't that certain. Referring back to OP's post and that article, it makes sense why a lot of men just aren't bothering anymore. Is it worth it? Who's to blame? Is it feminism, or that just one force amongst several? I don't know, and I don't care.

So many men have their lives ruined because of divorces, false accusations, and all kinds of crap nowadays. It makes me wonder if the best option isn't just doing the whole Walden thing.

>>3901112
I mean if the relationship is just based on sexual mind-games rather than love, then there's no real attachment at all and it could all fall apart at any moment. Plus it's not emotionally satisfying at all. I'd rather just fuck fat girls lol

>>3899629
>"It's patriarchy, not "reverse sexism"!"
This has always seemed like cop-out to me. Just a way of feminists admitting that some social disparities give men the shit end of the stick rather than women, but it's all good because everything bad ever is part of modern feminism's interpretation of "patriarchy", so if you just shut up and let them do what they want everything will get solved.

Honestly, who gives a fuck what you call discrimination?

>>3900993
He's a good actor though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EysmVYMTEmM

So this thread made me go out and get 4chanx so i could filter tripfags. This thread reads sooo much better now

>>3901160
>here was a guy who actually loved someone else despite all the shit and in the end he was left just walking away.

you're ignoring the fact that gosling's character brought that on himself. he went after a girl with tons of red flags and got burned for it. a good woman won't capriciously divorce you.

>>3901161
>love
>not including sexual mind games

stay pleb

>>3901253
The same could be said for women who date abusive men.

>>3901253
>he went after a girl with tons of red flags

Like what? I didn't see the movie.
Also, is it very good or worth watching?
Or any other Gosling movies? I like Ryan Gosling no homo. I enjoyed Drive and Lars and the Real Girl

>>3901260
and?

>>3901263
>Also, is it very good or worth watching?

It's one of Gosling's best films in my opinion, better than Lars at least.

The acting is top notch. I read somewhere that during filming the director made Gosling and the lead actress to live together in a small house on the same budget the characters in the movie had so that they'd start to hate each other so things would be more realistic.

>>3901272
And feminists call that victim blaming.

Anecdotal story:

>Parents get divorce
>Mother plants porn on fathers computer and admits it to joint friend
>Mother fakes physical abuse and routinely calls cops
>Mother fathers restraining order against father for her and kids, we're with crazy bitch for a month
>Mother begs us to understand her side of the story, it's our fault our father has brainwashed us
>Steals bank accounts from kids
>Mother tells all friends it's the fathers fault, Friendships of many years are destroyed
>Father wins custody
>Mother never pays child support
>Takes kids to the hospital for minor injuries and attempts to bill father
>To this day tells me lies and continues to believe them herself

I have my reasons I don't trust women or marriage.

Post script - She was the first to cheap by going on a vacation and fucking a skeezy raft guide in New Mexico, then coming home with the idea that she had to "find herself" effectively abandoning her 13 year old son and 4 year old daughters.

I'm for feminism but she used a goddamn lot of those standard tropes and ideas to fight in the courtroom.

>>3901333

Sorry, not just porn, child pornography. I was the one originally blamed for it since i was in the room when my father found it.

He destroyed the computer with a baseball bat.

>>3901333
>mfw mentally unstable bitches
>mfw marrying those mentally unstable bitches

>>3901348

She was a great mother for the beginning of my life. I didn't know her younger so maybe I just missed it. Regardless, I can directly thank her for reading to me almost every night as a child and being the inspiration for my love of books.

Still, yea.

>>3901352
It's good that you acknowledge the best side of her with her worst. Your mother is a product of westernized feminism. That's all. If she tried to manipulate the courts to her advantage, it is because it is increasingly open for women to cry wolf and reap the positive consequences. Thankfully, this trend is reversing in the 2010s.

>>3901348
>being attracted to 3DPD women

Anyone who does this deserves whatever bad things happen to them.

>>3901356
>not being attracted to 3DPD women with stinky bum holes and bad breath in the morning
>2013

>>3901101
so I can find my posts more easily. It's how I rediscovered that tumblr post, even.
also because building an "online presence" is vital to my marketability in the Web 2.0

>>3901197
yeah, I'll probably watch Blue Valentine, but there's a cult around Gosling (maybe less now) like there's a cult around Zizek
also he looked like a weak bitch in that movie where he has all the tattoos, id probably break his arm if i gave him an high five

>>3901333
That's really shitty (worse than "really shitty" but I'm bad with words) and I'm sorry that it happened.
I was blamed for downloading pornography at my church but I was only using the computer for Neopets, which is far worse.

>>3901232
I just went out and bought a gun that pierces only the hearts of the ones I love; it's like I've been searching for it my whole life.

>>3901362
2D is the only pure and true love there is. Because it's about love a person on it's whole.

When you think you love a 3D female, you are only loving the projection of her that is interpreted by your brain. This projection is not what actually exists, and the conflict between the external existence of her and your projection will always led to suffering.

While loving a 2D girl is loving someone on it's entirety, they will never cheat on you, disappoint you or make you suffer, which is why it's a pure love.

Also, to the ones complaining you can't touch your waifu. This is not something bad. Just like the cathars believed every material matter was evil in origin, while spiritual matter was divine, i believe the spiritual nature of 2D love make it superior to physical, and therefore degenerate, 3D "love", which is actually only lust, a sin.

But if you want so much to touch your waifu, buy a dakimura.

>>3900933
He didn't claim harrassment didn't exist, he was asking how diluted the poster's standard is for his definition of harassment. Sharing that anecdote didn't reveal anything, and wasn't even coming from the poster questioned. It was a meaningless emotional appeal.

>>3901101
Fucktard.

>>3900975
Blue Valentine is a tryhard piece of shit, Cianfrance is a pretentious hack pandering to the tasteless college kid circuit, an imitation of sincerity. A personal anecdote is a dumb point, but you've the stupidity to take it from a movie? A hollow efficacious workshop film at that, get out of here.
>live together in a small house on the same budget the characters in the movie had so that they'd start to hate each other so things would be more realistic.
Fucktard.

>"the American dream" (I put that in scare quotes because I recognize it's problematic to some).
>makes me wonder if the best option isn't just doing the whole Walden thing.
Ahh jesus shut the fuck up.

read more books you faggots!! fuck this thread. Screwtape you always surprise me with how fucking dumb you are.

>>3901405
>Fucktard.

But the director actually did that.

Do you actually have any legitimate criticisms of the movie? "Tryhard' isn't legitimate.