/lit/ - Literature

>>3841146
I'm afraid you'll have to be more precise.

>>3841146
Things were better in ancient times.

With power safely relegated to money, the empowered individual is free to revert to the savage state.

>>3841152
Harmony Korine's Spring Breakers (2013)

>people getting fucked up and having fun and dancing and music, maybe having sex if available

Maybe particular substances, moves, music and outfits have changed a bit over time but otherwise it's been pretty steady behaviour for at least 10.000 years or so.

the only cultural logic in modern capitalism is the bottom line, anything else is incidental

>>3841192
True, true.

THIS is the cultural logic of late capitalism.

>>3841192
word.

hey, do you believe we are on a decline in civilization or are we getting smarter on a social level as capitalism peters out?

late capitalism is dope!

we're just getting better at being bad

>>3841204
> capitalism peters out

But that's not happening... If anything capitalism has gained a lot more traction with the rise of China and the Asian economies.

>>3841146

Yes. Embrace Fascism before it is too late.

spring breakers was so fucking good

>>3841224
I saw it opening night with an audience full of teenagers who expected The Hangover III.

They had no idea what was going on and couldn't stop yelling.

>>3841204
I think that most notions of decline are the result of the 'plebs' having more of a platform these days. This is why we can observe so many dumb people. They have more of a voice. But even the dumbest fucks venting their idiocy on Twitter are probably lightyears ahead of your average 18th century Tsarist Russia peasant or something like that. I think we're doing fine in that aspect. People tend to whine about contemporary culture, media and entertainment and it's poisonous effects, but it's not as if all these people would have been writers and composers without it. They probably would have gotten drunk and rowdy at the pub and try to get into a fight or someone's panties and gamble and such like they did before these inventions.

If anything, more people with potential have the chance to develop it now than at any other point in history.

>>3841146
No, culture is not indicative of economic function. If anything it is a reaction against purely economic function.

Captcha: Hebrew poshedba

>>3841220
>grimdark cunthammer three fiddy picture

Is that what fascism wants to be these days?

no. It's the cultural logic of decadence

>>3841237
>>3841233
but capitalism is so bad guys it's the reason why everything is so shit

>>3841233
riiiiiiiiiight

Capitalism combined with a welfare state is fine. Glorious centrism. All we need now is a world government.

Depending on how you read the movie, I think it could be an example.

It seems posts like these >>3841163, >>3841167, >>3841192 took the movie very literally, with sincere and surface motives. I don't know, I thought it was a genuine celebration of certain aspects of lower culture. It wasn't an attempt at naturalism or realism, it was clearly glorification with a level of self-awareness, but not, I think, to the point of absurdity, to the point of satire or criticism. I think it's a misinterpretation to treat it as an honest representation of a certain contemporary culture, an example and depiction of our primal sheepish mass culture, or as a criticism of it, a demonstration of the stupidity of the so-called sheep. I believe it was created, with a certain level of awareness, to follow in line with hyperrealism (of baudrillard, eco), a glamorization of reality, creating a new, more desirable reality that's presented as our reality but only accessible through the film. I don't think it's a true example of hyperreality, because the film points it out, there's an idea of spring break, elevating the present reality they're experiencing with in the movie itself to something more, a transcendental event, and in the second half, reality crashes down on gomez, her illusion is shattered. It crashes on Korine's wife, the fault of chasing an inauthentic hyperreality results in getting fucking shot. I think in this way, it does represent a little bit of contemporary "cultural logic," glorifying a few subcultures and exploring the inherent problem of belief in glorification, while still ending the movie in sincere celebration, regardless, of the low cultures and of its own glorification.

>>3841233
>If anything it is a reaction against purely economic function.
that itself is indicative of something. a rejection of economy is indicative of an economy which needs its conscious (i.e. apparent) rejection of its "pure" form to persist (because, after all, it does persist).

Man, with all this talk of Glorious World Leaders it reminds me that I want a new Wild West.

Someplace where I can be free from both the Tyranny of the State and the Tyranny of the Masses.

>>3841216
But when will we break it?

>>3841217
>If anything capitalism has gained a lot more traction with the rise of China and the Asian economies.
Yep. Welcome to the history of the world.

>>3841233

So medieval culture was in no way indicative of feudalism? It wasn't influenced by it, shaped by it, or directed by it?

>>3841324
>>3841217
China is completely irrelevent. If USA, for some reason, were to stage a revolution and become communist, the entire world would follow.

Communism, if it will ever happen, is waiting for USA.

>>3841340
so fucking delusional

>>3841353
This is a worksafe board.

>>3841340
USA is still red scared as fuck. Maybe in a thousand years.

>>3841265
>All we need now is a world government

I can't believe there are people in the West who actually want this. We'll see how much you like it when the 92% of the world not made up of rich Western whites forcibly redistributes your wealth and your standard of living nosedives.

>>3841207
Fuck. That guy doesn't even lift.


Also, I think 4chan is the cultural logic of late capitalism.

>>3841367
>>3841362
>>3841340
Communism is retarded! Just stop or go to pol. Marx was very eloquent and a great theorists. As far as applicable theory is concerned, however, it's idiotic.

>>3841370
how's that
and just what is the cultural logic of late capitalism

>>3841372
Just give up. /lit/ is universally hard-left.

>>3841374
Instant oatmeal perogatives
Self interested individualism without shared common benefit
In regards to 4chan with the sometimes exception of /lit/ and slower boards... NOBODY WANTS TO DISCUSS ANYTHING. WE'RE NOT READING YOUR POSTS OR INTERNALIZING YOUR VIEWPOINTS. WE'RE JUST WAITING TO SAY WHAT WE WANT TO SAY AND FUCK YOU FOR NOT AGREEING!

>>3841382
http://fuuka.warosu.org/lit/thread/S3726745

Centrist as fuck bro.

Is there a name for the political ideology of wanting BNW to come true?

>>3841394
That's simply not true. My own experience here must be very different from yours, or I am just blind.

>>3841396
Everyone identifies as centrist

>>3841397
whuts dat

>>3841408
Brave New World.

>>3841398
A lot of (young) people tend to be too vain to embrace the unadventurous middle way.

>>3841414
VIVA LA REVOLUCION
Building a new government is boring. I'm going home.
Wait, the government you built didn't get any input from me?
Viva la revolucion por un tiempo segundo

>>3841397
Yes: Corporatism.

>>3841439
That's incidental. It isn't so clear-cut.

>>3841397
Political Platonism. It's basically a modern version of The Republic applied.

>>3841382
Which it should be

Can a world government be fascist?

>god I hate it when people do things I don't like someone should stop them

>>3841340

It is just the opposite. All of the real communists these days are Maoist Third Worldists. Labor Aristocrats of the bourgeois first world have no reason to revolt. Meanwhile, those who support them with their labor are going to "pull the legs out from under" the U.S. and the crisis of capital will truly begin. At that point, the U.S. will have to reform itself to the now worldwide communism or return to obscurity.

>>3841481
>capitalism will implode!
>200 years later
>a-anytime now..

>>3841267
/lit/ pls respond this thread was about spring breakers and late capitalist (ie postmodern, contemporary) culture, not capitalist economics and political theory you fuckwits

>>3841483
This.

> don't worry it doesn't invalidate Marxist theory but it's definitely coming very soon I promise!

>>3841372
Capitalism is retarded! Just stop or go to pol. Smith was very eloquent and a great theorists. As far as applicable theory is concerned, however, it's idiotic.

>>3841483
Seriously. All this wishful thinking is hilarious. Marxist theory is the best thing that ever happened to capitalists

>hey guys, communism will arise naturally as a result of historical progression, just wait around for capitalism to collapse! No action needed!

Revolutionary change doesn't just happen leftists, you need to TAKE control.

>>3841499

Yeah, that's why there's revolutionary action in the third world. I'm not saying that the crisis of capitalism is just going to happen. Groups like the Naxalites are going shut it down from a distance. Cut off imports to the U.S. and capitalism will fail there.

>>3841499
> he can't think in dialectics!
girls_laughing.png

Kidding. I agree, it's retarded.

as usual, /lit/ hasn't read the book.

>>3841506
I have. And I couldn't stop thinking about it while watching Spring Breakers.

>>3841506
>impenetrable cultural Marxist nonsense

Into the trash it goes!

>>3841518
I smirk'd but Jameson is a really accessible read.

>>3841146
Does she get newd?

Actually, OP, Ron Paul memes epitomize the cultural logic of late capitalism.

>>3841515
what were your thoughts?

>>3841229
Maybe some of the would have been labourers, producers, farmers? I think there are many other important positions in a society apart from writers and composers anon.

Is Spring Breakers actually worth watching?

>>3841457
>r-r-reality has a leftist bias g-guys!
You people make me sick.

>>3841536
/lit/ only values intellectuals.

Why do Marxists come up with all these fancy ways to say "I hate low culture plebs."?

>>3841527
Seemed like a checklist of points raised in Jameson's essay (minus the technological stuff) without trying to make a gamble and go a step further and really say something provocative. Not all the characters felt fleshed out either but on the whole it was a good film.

>>3841580
They don't hate low culture plebs, they just want fancy ways of saying "I'm a good person even though I wanna be bourgeois"

>>3841595
They are bourgeois though. All of them. The intellectuals, I mean.

>>3841602
>intellectuals in charge of being in charge of the means of production

I thinks not, Tyrell.

>>3841620
No, you're right.
I meant that they were born with silver spoons up their asses and are often out of touch with reality.

>>3841569
Do you enjoy the Daily Show but prefer Colbert?

>>3841569
>he actually convinced himself it doesn't

Oh, to be young.

>>3841580
Speak for yourself, Rand.

>>3841666
Convince me that it does. Or don't.

>>3841673

the cultural revolution was the worst thing to happen to china in the history of ever.

>>3841757
is that your final answer?

>[statement x]
>[condescending statement y indicating that statement x is false]
>neither statement x nor y have substance

>>3841780


come at me bro

>2013
>he thinks we are in anything other than mercantilist corporatism

yes

>>3841757
No, that was probably An Lushan.

>>3841493
Number of successful examples of communist countries?
>0
Number of succesful capitalist countries, where snide little fucks like you can believe whatever they want?
>over 200

>>3841941
>ye old quantity of feudal principalities in christendom:
>ye old quantity of heathen communalists:

>>3841757
>not opium peddling Brits

>>3842500

not the unification wars.

>>3841941
>1815
>number of successful democratic republics?
>0
>number of successful enlightened autocracies?
>as i thought you snide little fuck

lol americans

>>3841233
what are you even talking about, capitalism shapes culture, have you heard about consumerism culture?

>>3841146
as glaucon says, how not?

>>3842545
>mentions 1815
>number of successful democratic republics is 0
>forgets the US, yet takes time to condescendingly call me American
You retarded, bro?

>>3842742
Adding to this,
>1815
Democracy/capitalism was not a mainstream ideology at the time and few societies had attempted it. The magna carta and Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" had given it roots, but it was not what you'd call tangible.
>2013
Communism has been attempted several times by several major nations with no avail. China has stayed afloat, but is more authoritarian than utopian. Their success has been attributed to mainly to their acceptance of capitalist values and emerging economy. Yet, their faults will be found in their attempt to have a government planned economy (see China's ghost real estate market) and widespread political corruption.

All communist countries are doomed to failure because of their ignorance of individual incentive for both citizens and officials. It's simply not applicable.
I would also like to point out that capitalism is just better.
People in West Berlin defecting to East Berlin?
>0
People in East Berlin defecting to West Berlin?
>A LOT
lol stupid European fucks can't compare S. Korea and Japan to China and Vietnam.

>>3841229
i like to think they'd read a lot more books.

>>3841267
>but not, I think, to the point of absurdity, to the point of satire or criticism.

did you even watch the film

>>3842868
this set of platitudes covers the entire history of the 20c if you are a platitudophile, otherwise the situation is, ah, more "complex", monsieur. to begin with, the planned economy of the soviet union was just as effective as its western counterpart. the soviet union did not collapse because of its economics. this is a #fact.

>>3842868
funny marx says the reverse: all capitalist countries are doomed to failure because of individual incentive for both citizens and officials.

>>3841941
beautiful

>>3841941

Freedom of speech means little when you say so much, mean so little and is heard so seldom by people. If you think a site like 4chan constitutes real freedom of speech, free from bad faith and class delusion then you are mistaken.

>>3843213
except that's what /b/ is for

try again

>>3841941
This is a red herring tactic which forces us into a game of semantics around the word "successful."

>>3843218
There are no original or interesting thoughts on /b/ that are ever "heard." What is the point of freedom of speech if there are no listeners? One might as well compose letters that one never sends.

>>3841163
Go back to an American small town in 1870 and tell me if you see anything like this.

sprinnnnnngggg breaaak.... SPRRRRIIIINGGG BBBBREEEAAAKKK....

late capitalism? idk if this is the central point in the movie. American college culture fuck? yes. The movie is clearly (to me, a recent college grad with a film degree) about college no longer being in your self interest. Korine is saying that learning and informing your self is no longer relevant or important to our youth because of the out dated way that it is presented and the inherent cost associated with it ( time / money ). see the opening scene where the girls are talking over their western civ teacher about how sweet getting the fuck out of there will be while their faces are lit entirely by lcd screens which suggests that the lecture they are paying dickloads for is a waste of time(to them, they want it now). Who's successful NOW? james fuckin' franco aka "alien" - so the chicks learn from him, become interns, adopt his culture and take the fuck over. Here, rick ross style rap culture is basically a satire American business culture, when you get the job it's not what you learned in class that matters it's how quickly you adopt the ruthless capitalist culture. If you don't make your boss suck you and your friends metaphorical gun/dicks, letting them know the same ruthlessness gets you off too, then how you gonna move up the ladder? For americans, no humanity can remain if you want success, and even then prepare to get killed ( by the competition). just look at all these whistle blowers in trying to do some good and how quickly all their friends/fam abandon them? best not show your humanity here...

at the same time there is a racial analysis Korine is making which the newyorker's review hits on pretty well, but that's irrelevant to OP's q.

so... actually yes then, it's about how late capitalism divorces the individual from the ability to successfully be human in the complete sense of the word, which then results in the "culture logic" you're talking about where bitchs be wylin' in their fresh ray bans and thrown' up duces while listening to skrillex and not giving a fuck. All those things help us separate ourselves from reality so that we can perform as we're expected to culturally.

>>3843331
post the review bro

>Successful communist nations
>Failing for any reason other than US intervention

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/movies/2013/03/spring-breakers-review.html

ctrl-f " blacklight" and read that paragraph for the part i was talking about

>>3841483
climate sensitivity takes a little, learn your climatology

>muh externalities
>muh systemic risk

enjoy your corporatist dystopia

From the top and all at once,
>>3843190
Firstly, your grammar is an embarrassment to all of us and I am affronted, yet obliged to answer you.
Secondly, what is so complex about your failure to point to one example of a communist society that flourished?
Thirdly,
>this is a fact
No, it's not.
And finally,
Fuck you for wasting my time with your fatuous, uninformed political imagination.
>>3843196
I wonder who's correct, Marx's nineteenth century political theories or factual world history?
Would you work hard all day, while another loaf, and be satisfied with having the same wage? Would you be satisfied, if spent your life designing an invention to have some government official claim the rights to it and give you nothing?
Build a house on your father's land just to have it taken by those who have no right to it?
>>3843213
>say so much
It's two sentences, a word, and two numbers.
>>3843219
>red herring tactic
>red
Funny. Anyway, what would you prefer as opposed to "successful"? Quality of life? Technological advancement? The ability to maintain your strategy for a system of government for more than a century? Why build a wall for defectors? How many walls does your country have to keep its citizens in?
>>3843373
Yes, wildly unnecessary military expenditures, massive class differentials, mistaken "planned" resource distribution induced famines all America's fault. Yes, we'll take responsibility for the The Great Purge and gulags as well.

>>3843427
"Successful communist nations"

>>3843331
>>3843341
these people get it

>>3841267
this guy is trolling. or sperging

>>3843434
And I said all that...
I'm through beating the dead horse and will now attempt to drown it.
In the history of any standing democratic nation, how many sweeping mass political imprisonments and executions have occurred?
>0
... and in communist nations?
>more than a few

>>3843427
>Firstly, your grammar is an embarrassment to all of us
The grammar's absolutely fine. Please stop being that ESL guy, especially when you've put such classics as:
>Would you work hard all day, while another loaf, and be satisfied with having the same wage?
I mean, what the hell?

>>3843478
I beg your pardon. How hypocritical of me.
>Would you work hard all day, while another loafed, and be satisfied with equal compensation?
There you go, buddy.

>>3843427
ah, monsieur, my grammar is perfect, my style is garbage, and my conscience is clean.

>>3843476
>In the history of any standing democratic nation, how many sweeping mass political imprisonments and executions have occurred?

Did you know that the democratic nations of South Korea and South Vietnam during the Cold War were known for tyranny against the people while the US willingly supported them?

>>3843427
yes, it's a #fact. the collapse of the soviet union was social and political. the economics of the soviet bloc have been studied and i can find the studies if you like. they were on par with their western neighbours. this is because planned economies work. a perfect example of that would be the united states: there is socialism for investment bankers (bailouts) and huge government funding of the military-industrial complex.

>>3843526
OK, please post a link to these studies.

>>3843490
>this set of platitudes covers the entire history of the 20c if you are a platitudophile, otherwise the situation is, ah, more "complex", monsieur. to begin with, the planned economy of the soviet union was just as effective as its western counterpart. the soviet union did not collapse because of its economics. this is a #fact.
This set of platitudes covers the entire history of the twentieth century, if you are a platitudophile(not a word). Otherwise, the situation is, ah, more "complex", monsieur. To begin with, the planned economy of the Soviet Union was just as efficient as its Western counterparts, and did not cause its collapse. I know this for a fact, but refuse to provide any example or even address anything you said other than your criticism of my horrid grammar.
>>3843520
In two geographically bisected countries? In the midst of two brutal civil wars? NO WAY! How are North Korea and all of Vietnam doing these days anyway?
>>3843526
>social and political
Why would they want to stop living in the glorious Communist Utopia? Is it because Russia was going bankrupt propping up its third world satellite states or because the Russian government was facing an up rise from its destitute over class differences and loss in Afghanistan?
Protip: Economics, Politics, and Society are related.
Second Protip: Comparable GDPs =/= comparably efficient economies.
>>3843512
Your grammar's fucking terrible, you dumb mother fucker. I'd fix it, but what's my benefit? FTR, I don't think you speak French.

>All these brainwashed proles defending capitalism

>>3843586
>doesn't know what grammar is
>rewrites my post with changes to punctuation and capitalisation.
>thinks he has "improved" the grammar
>top lel

>>3841229
>But even the dumbest fucks venting their idiocy on Twitter are probably lightyears ahead of your average 18th century Tsarist Russia peasant or something like that.

RElatively speaking I'd say considering the context of their times that the twitterer is probably even more thick.

>>3843611
>all these borgeiousie products of capitalism children expounding champagne-marxist theory while benefiting from the system

>>3843617
>can't read
>has never heard of syntax
>hasn't answered a single fucking thing or made any notable contribution to this thread at all
>doesn't deny his wannabe bilingual butthurt
Ah, monsieur, it must be a more "complex" than that. But of course, you are, ah how you say, platypussophile, no?

>>3843706
>attempting to critique marxism as middle class dilletantism and frivolity
>borgeiousie

>>3843718
monsieur, you cannot even spell bourgeoise, i am afraid you must leave

>>3843722
>thinks he knows what syntax is
>cares about this thread
>still can't into grammar
>thinks he can monsieur guy his way out of this

>>3841297

How come no one ever wants to be free from the tyranny of getting shot in the face?

>>3843723
>>3843706

>>3843718
>implying you addressed my central point and didn't try to avoid the issue by arguing petty semantics of a 19th C buzzword used by brain-dead Marxoids to describe anyone who has a stick finger or five in perpetuating current division the means of production

people aren't products
you're revealing how terribly deep the capitalist dick has rooted itself in you.

could you even click 'I'm a human' with honesty?

>>3843724
i agree, monsieur, the misrepresentation of monsieur guy causes me much pain, perchance i should sue him for emotional distress?

>>3843733
>implying your central point isn't laughable

>>3843737
>perchance

>>3843740
refute it then

>>3843745
>be laughable capitalist guy on /lit/
>expect sedulous tutoring

>>3841146
pleb lower classes' trivia is just a background noise, don't clotter your mind with stupid details, those prevent you from seeing the bigger picture

>>3841146

No - America never had any culture to begin with.

Does anyone else think that Marxists might have more luck peddling their economics if they weren't such insufferable wankers about it?

late capitalism is late collectivism is late anarchism

human nature will fuck you up no matter which adventure you choose

>>3842545
>US
>successful in 1815
but it is you who are retard

>>3843774
>Not realizing that we shouldn't have even tried to civilize

>>3843771
>implying capitalists are even educated

>>3843783
>implying you've read rousseau

>>3843783
>2013
>knowing about is/ought problem

>>3843526
This. MFW when Americans don't realize theirs is a planned economy.

>>3843796
>reifying the gregorian calender
>2013

>>3843805
it's 'calendar'

>>3843801
o shit. cat is out of the bag now. prepare for capitalist buttstorm. "obama is a communist!!!"

>>3843788

I don't understand this criticism. Capitalists frequently are educated.

Or is it the type of education you resent? Educational institutions like universities are too infested with capitalist bias?

>>3843808
>spelling correction
>implying the english language has correct spelling

>>3843812
>claiming capitalists are educated
>cites universities
>top lel

>>3843812
>Capitalist are frequently educated

Brainwashing and blunt mental trauma are technically education, sure.

>>3843790
>implying he wasn't wrong as well

Humans can't stop being assholes. In fact we manage to be even bigger assholes by being true our animalistic selves while hiding it under a sheep's clothing of civillization. We really should just kill ourselves and let the animals do their thing.

Life is beautiful when it can't be comprehended.

>>3843818
>not knowing all knowledge is ultimately data
>not realizing bullshit trivia 'business education' is ultimately as meaningless as knowing secrets of the universe

>this thread
>believing rational thought systems like ideology can describe an irrational construct like society
When will you people learn that we are all wrong all the time.

>>3843823
>implying you can understood the implications which i implied

>>3843586
>platitudophile(not a word)
You clearly don't understand how English works.

>>3843818
>>3843821

I see. I take it the both of you intuited Marx's work a priori then?

Or are you simply shining paragons of autodiadtism?

>>3843827
>being this reductive
>flaunting your 15 yo nihilism

>>3843832

*autodidactism

>>3843832
The latter.

>>3843829
>implying implications imply meaningful conclusions upon an implied system.
>implying that the year is not 2013 by the implied backwardness of your post.

>>3843832
>implying your inferences from our posts are even logical

>>3843838
>implying you make sense

>>3843834
>hiding your insecurities behind insults
>anthropomorphising your fears into your interlocutors and dealing them internet hate-filled punches

>>3843848
>resorting to psychoanalysis
>being this desperate

>>3843846
>implying there is such a thing as sense

>>3843775
>1815
>beating the period's foremost world power in two separate wars
>becoming an industrial power, as well as an agricultural power
>within 11 years of the Louisiana purchase
Uh, yeah. Successful.
>>3843818
>>3843821
>talk shit
>blindly follow inapplicable political theories developed by butthurt poor guy
>can't refute a single criticism of communism itt
>criticize system that fosters their rights to their own backassward beliefs.
Criticize context of the word grammar. Oh you're stilling talking about Communism?
LALALALALALALA CAPTIALISM IS BAD LALALALALALALALALA it's bad because of... reasons...
>>3843801
tfw it's a mixed system

>>3843801
every economy on earth is partially planned, babby

>>3843852
>failing to address argument
>accusing others of desperation
>not killing yourself
>4013-2000

>>3843837
>>3843841

Ok then. New question.

At what point does scepticism directed against the establishment just become full blown conspiracy theorising?

>>3843855
>defining success in militaristic terms
>being this pleb
>not understanding grammar
>believes capitalism gives us the right to "beliefs"
>thinks the soviet union wasn't a mixed system

>>3843858
Naturally sir. My point, is that Americans are woefully unaware of this, and moreso, believe theirs is a particularly 'free' economy when it is in fact extensively planned in relation to other states.

Please comprehend before replying.

>>3843855
>makes a bunch of specious claims without evidence
>has claims denied
>demands evidence
>doesn't get it
>starts congratulating himself

>>3843873
>muh generalizations about amerikans

>>3843756
>implying im not an anarchist

ooooh scared ya faggot wot u gonna do fuckig notink maute u gust gotr trolled

>>3843855
>implying Americans won, even tactically, in 1812.
>implying the process of industrialization is synonymous with the end result of said industrialization
>implying the Lousiana purpose is of singular importance.

>>3843863
>LYL TINFOIL

Jesus, how sheltered are you?

>>3843855
>points out the historical flaws of communism while ignoring the historical flaws of capitalism (which we are living through right now)
>can't separate theory and praxis
>thinks he has refuted communism
>be this retarded
>demand the courtesy of "evidence" when you don't offer it first

>>3843879
Well there are always exceptions of course, but you can scarcely deny that the average American is politically unconscious.

>>3843874
You're an idiot who makes tyranny possible by making illogical arguments based on you own ineptitude. You inability to see the value of a set of laws designed to restrain the power of the government, doesn't make it worthless, it merely makes you stupid. If you don't like how the government is capricious, maybe you should realize the problem doesn't lie with the constitution it lies with the failing of the people entrusted to uphold it. Face it you and the rest of your feeble minded ilk ARE the problem in todays society by failing to even attempt to understand what the constitution is and why it was framed the way it was, and what the philosophies of the men who wrote it were. You have proven yourself a simpleton so I don't expect you will ever understand, you will just keep repeating shit you have heard from god knows what idiot.

>>3843874
>>3843867
Here you are monsieur :)

age of decadence.

>>3843887
being an anarchist is like being a basement navy seal ninja that can fly

anarchism is a physically impossible political position in this day and age, don't delude yourself

>>3843863
Anti-capitalists aren't "sceptics" any more than geologists are "sceptics" of Young Earth Creationism

>>3843901
>mon visage quand

>>3843867
Not that anon, but the Soviet Union was not a mixed system by any means.

>INB4 NEP

>>3843901
>contemporary society is not anarchistic
>therefore anarchism is impossible

>>3843911
How are we to take you seriously when you are plainly ignorant of history and economics?

>>3843901
You really do not know what you're talking about, do you?

>>3843917


If that's your argument, then you literally have forfeited your right to MAKE that very argument.

...How do people even fuck up this badly? You couldn't TRY to be this illogical.

>>3843911
hey! the NEP was a fascinating, doomed experiment in trying to have a limited capitalism. It should have driven the nail in the whole idea of a mangaed economy, but if you want to be blind, nobody can turn on the light for you.

>>3843919
Explain? Was any man free to dispose of his capital howsoever he wished within the confines of state-mandated economy, or am I despicably ignorant?

>>3843923
No I'm not saying NEP was shit, I'm saying that NEP was not Soviet policy for the vast majority of it's existance

>>3843917
l2read
declaring yourself an actual anarchist is delusional
we are all politically a part of a populist socialist/capitalist dichotomic spectacle, there is no actual way for an anarchist to express his political views

>>3843935
>not being anarcho-socialist

It's like you don't know

>>3843935
Oh my wow just stop speaking, please. Please. For your sake.

>>3843922
That's not his argument, he was mocking what the other guy was saying.

>>3843951
nope, I just enjoy your counter-arguments too much

kill yourself

>>3843890

That's a bit of a crass reduction. But I imagine you don't have much else in the way of intellectual ammunition, so I'll let it go.

You seem to believe that higher education institutions and the people who inhabit them are guilty of mass intellectual fraud.

So, are they aware of this, but completely unscrupulous? Unaware, and not smart enough to puzzle it out? You just assume such massive and systemic levels of bad faith and/or idiocy from the population at large I can't swallow your conclusion.

Realistically, how likely is it that you're one of the special, precious few enlightened, and the rest of the world are just deluded cattle?

Certainly sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

>>3843898
>implying im american
>this much butthurt
>thinking tyranny today is red and not corporate

>babbies deluding themselves that throwing a rock at a riot police officer and then going home watching netflix makes them anarchists

you toddlers have no shame

>>3843935
>refusal to pay taxes
>refusal to participate in elections
>refusal to cooperate with authorities
>constriction of communes
>application of force against state apparatuses

You are mistaking 'impossible' for 'difficult'.

>we are all politically a part of a populist socialist/capitalist dichotomic spectacle
Anarchism doesn't even fall on a left/right spectrum. It is the opposite position to authoritarianism.

It is quite hopeless to continue this line of inquiry.

>>3843959
I hate to break it to you but I wasn't even in the argument, just what you said was plainly absurd and you needed to be told.

Regards,
A concerned citizen.

>>3843904

Geologists are sceptical of the claims Young Earth Creationism. Their discipline provides substantial evidence against creationist beliefs about the world.

I'm not sure what your point is.

>>3843960
"The rest of the world" do not agree, bro.

>>3843932
the NEP couldn't have been made to work in any kind of communist society. It allowed for the accumulation of realtive economic power outside the party stucture. Inside the party it wasn't needed, because influence peddling, corruption, and black market operations, or facilitaing such operations could serve the same purpose. Since these things were illegal and therefore had to take place under the radar, they could be monitored and allowed until they became egregious, then cut off with some confidence that a similar structure would soon rise to fill the need. In the Case of The NEPmen, they were sanctioned, and taxed, and regulated, but though their advantages were small, they could operate publicly and thus still accumulate realtive power and wealth, and therfore influence. The only real advantage of the NEP was that it allowed the development of the commercial connections and channels between black market suppliers and corrupt officials that, after the NEP was entirely supplanted by the underground economy, created the network of favors, kickbacks, contraband smuggling, bribery and clandestine deals that kept the soviet economy functioning at all.

>>3843978

What do you mean? Speak to me like a child, please.

>>3843970
On a good day you're a half-wit. You remind me of drool. You are deficient in all that lends character. You have the personality of wallpaper. You are dank and filthy. You are asinine and benighted. Spammers look down on you. Phone sex operators hang up on you.Telemarketers refuse to be seen in public with you. You are the source of all unpleasantness. You spread misery and sorrow wherever you go. May you choke on your own foolish opinions. You are a Pusillanimous
galactophage and you wear your sister's training bra. Don't bother opening the door when you leave - you should be able to slime your way out underneath. I hope that when you get home your mother runs out from under the porch and bites you.You smarmy lagerlout git. You bloody woofter sod. Bugger off, pillock. You grotty wanking oik artless base-court apple-john. You clouted boggish foot-licking half-twit. You dankish clack-dish plonker. You gormless crook-pated tosser. You bloody churlish boil-brained clotpole ponce. You craven dewberry pisshead cockup pratting naff. You cockered bum-bailey poofter. You gob-kissing gleeking flap-mouthed coxcomb. You dread-bolted fobbing beef-witted clapper-clawed irt-gill. May your spouse be blessed with many bastards.

Regards,
Monsieur

>>3843973
I retract
>construction of communes
for
>construction of free associations

pleb here
i don't know what half of this means or what to think. it is scary

>>3843977
Geologists are skeptics of YEC because YEC isn't a viable science, and the same is true of anticapitalists and capitalism.

>>3843985
>being this much of a gimmicky retard
>clothing your reactionary views in the monsieur guy schtick

>>3843994

You're not a pleb. You don't know what half of this means because more than half of it means nothing at all.

And you're right to find it scary, because this kind of intellectual posturing without substance is actively harmful to the people who practice it and those they might influence.

It's too late for me. Escape while you can. Go read something down to earth and unpretentious.

>>3843983
"The rest of the world" does not agree that capitalism is the best, or a good, economic system.

>>3843982
You're forgetting Lenin did this as a response primarily to famine, and not out of any ideologically motivated concerns. In fact he realised how detrimental this was to his prestige within the party.

Your equation of NEP in a communistic society and "the party" doesn't give me great confidence in your knowledge, good sir. Communistic society is supposed to be facilitated by the party, which then abolishes itself on creation. But absolute power corrupts absolutely.

>>3843973
>refusal to pay taxes
working for 2$/hour for the next 10 years in a prison like a good wage slave or just being shot to death is what you call being an anarchist?
>refusal to participate in elections
is a democratic right you have been granted by the powers that be; can be changed overnight and your sorry ass dragged to a ballot
>refusal to cooperate with authorities
see refusal to pay taxes
>constriction of communes
delusional roleplaying within the capitalist/socialist dichotomic system by spoiled babbies; every second of this childs play is possible by countless supporting systems deployed and sustained by the state and powers that be
>application of force against state apparatuses
see refusal to pay taxes

>You are mistaking 'impossible' for 'difficult'.
nope, I am not saying how difficult your roleplaying might be, I am saying it is completely impossible sans being born to a virgin tribe in the amazon jungle

also, a daily remainder: corpses aren't anarchists

>>3844000
You sound like one of those empty-headed reactionaries who write angry reviews in the TLS about the obscurantism of french intellectual whom they can't understand.

>>3843888
>implying he hasn't heard of The Battle of New Orleans
>implying no cotton gin
>implying doubling your country's landmass isn't of singular importance
>>3843893
I'm sorry. I mistook you for an intellectual.
Little piece of evidence in favor of capitalism/democracy
The United States has been in existence for 237 years under a one constitution.
No two truly democratic/capitalist countries have ever fought each other. EVER.
The working man is so oppressed and subjugated in US/W. Europe that he's being payed $25/hour to sit on his ass, while his pension bleeds the country dry.
Political institutions exist here
These are off the top of my head, but I can do some actual research, if this isn't proof enough.
Should I include my own love of uncensored internet and lack of fear of secret police, too?

>>3843996

I thought you said they weren't sceptics?

And what do you mean "viable"? YEC is a theory about the world, capitalism is a type of economic system. One is explanatory, the other is a way of arranging human activity.

Given that people do actually arrange their economic activity along capitalist lines, in what sense is it not viable?

>>3844000
>>3844012
pleb here again. tell me what i should do.

>>3844012

I probably would write an article like that if I could be bothered to read any Genet or Sartre.

I guess you got me. I like my intellectuals to avoid obfuscation in favour of clarity.

Sue me.

>>3844013
>US
>25$ min. wage

You had me going.

>>3844000
There's really no posture more ridiculous than the agent of intellectual responsibility. Writing is just a game, a bit of fun.

>>3844024
>min. wage
You're seeing things, guy.

>>3844000
unfortunately it seems you've projected your own uncomprehending brain onto this poor prole to make yourself feel a bit better about not knowing what's going on or what's being said

>>3844003

Ok.

And?

>>3844039
poor prole here. you seem mighty intellectual, please help me.

>>3844028

I was under the impression that writing down ideas and sharing them might help human beings enrich their understanding of the world.

>>3844039

"Projecting".

Probably my favourite piece of ad hominem psychobabble, thanks for sharing.

>>3844050
I'm definitely not intellectual. I was just mocking the other anon for his insecurity about what's being said here.

Basically Marxists think Capitalism is always collapsing (they've been saying this since 1848) and are always looking for "signs" that it is collapsing, when in reality it's stronger than ever.

All the while they dwell in basements and don't involve themselves in meaningful political action against the system they claim to hate, while leeching off it or benefiting from it.

>>3844014
>Being this disingenuous.

YEC is not a theory about the world, it's a non-science designed to make Protestant fundamentalism into US public education. The post >>3843904
states: "Anti-capitalists aren't "sceptics" any more than geologists are "sceptics" of Young Earth Creationism." This was in response to your use of the word s[k]epticism. You know the response was ironic. The point is a geologist being a "skeptic" of YEC implies there's anything to even consider in YEC scientifically.

>>3844005
I helped write a book about the influence of the NEP on the eventual shape of the undergorund soviet economy and the different market strategies of the black marketeers and their uneasy alliances with the high party functionaries. I'm sure you can find it; it's one of only five ever written on the subject. My thesis was that a managed economy can last indefinitely as long as there is no overt push from outside to destroy it as long as at least sixty percent of the actual market functions are underground. In otherwords, you can make the communist economic system work as long as most people are willing to subvert it.

>>3844066
>Basically Marxists think Capitalism is always collapsing

Bring me 2 examples of Marxists from 1848 and onward that say this.

>>3844021
There's really nothing to be clear about at all. Writers aren't describing reality, they are inventing it.

>>3844013
>implying intellectual is an honorific
The United States was built by slaves. That old canard about no democracies fighting each other? The connection between democracy and capitalism is incidental. See China. As for wage slavery, have you even read Marx? What is that proof of? Millions of people being paid to sit in a cubicle surfing facebook is arguably the greatest waste of human potential ever: that's an argument FOR capitalism? And we haven't even begun to look at a cultural critique.

>>3844078
>bu-bu-but muh ipod, muh cheesboirgahs, muh freedims!

>>3844077
>Imperialism being the end stage of capitalism by Lenin et al
>no action against Nazi germany 1933-1941 in the molotov-ribbentrop pact because the Stalinists thought Fascism was the natural culmination of capitalism

that's two

>>3844066

You can call me insecure if you want. But the plain English in your post just now is all I'm after. No more. I'm not intimidated by complex ideas. I just hate it when people can't be bothered to make themselves understood.

A muddy pond might be fifty feet deep, or a few inches. If the water is clear, no one has to guess. Nothing controversial about that.

>>3844073
Ok bro that's nice but you haven't said anything regarding your conflation of "party" and "commune", two mutually exclusive ideas.

>>3844085
I'm not even American.

>>3844093
>title of a book and what is effectively gibberish that isn't cited

Well, it was the best you could do.

>>3844077
Technically to be fair "true" Marxists don't think capitalism is "always collapsing", rather they believe that capitalism is a transient societal state that is necessary until technology reaches a point where a post-scarcity communist society is feasible.

That's why the USSR ultimately failed, because it was established by impatient peasants that were a little too eager for something that wasn't really technologically possible yet to happen.

so being a pleb, i am affected by this "false consciousness" thing, right? should i just kill myself?

>>3844108
>That's why the USSR ultimately failed, because it was established by impatient peasants that were a little too eager for something that wasn't really technologically possible yet to happen.

Nice thesis. Huge over-simplification.

>>3844100
That's absolutely fine. But words have distinct meanings, and so when political phraseology is used to describe political phenomena, it's because normal words don't do justice to the concept.
You dismissed half this thread as nonsense, when really you needed to read up on the terminology. Your not understanding it did not invalidate the meanings of the political discussion, yes?

>>3844078
The United States wasn't solely built by slaves, stop propagating this parochial view. The physical labor was also performed by free immigrants, but most importantly, the course of the country was set by the Founding Fathers who created our secular nation. So while the slaves deserve credit, you're simply being ahistorical by attributing each and every step-forward to them.

>>3844109
Nyet, comrade. You should read Marx's Capital with David Harvey http://davidharvey.org/

>>3844106
You haven't a clue. You asked for examples and I gave them. It doesn't fit your limited narrative, so you dispose of it ?

>>3844118
are there any good counterpoints to marxists so i can get a full picture, or should i bother?

>>3844117
The free immigrants weren't slaves? I don't think you understand the definition of "slave" in the context of a marxist political economy.

>>3844117
Economically, the US was built by slavery. The whole reason slavery existed after the war was because Southerners were too afraid to think of a country where they couldn't have free labor to support them.

>>3844120
>Delivers thought-terminating cliche
>Doesn't deliver when asked
>Gets called on it
>"You haven't a clue."

If you say so.

>>3844078
>US built by slaves
True American Hegemony began after WWII
>that old canard
Truth
>See China
You mean communist officials bolstering up there GDP with planned strawman markets, then pocketing the resulting surplus?
>Have you read Marx?
The manifesto and Kapital
>something about wage slavery
So they should do the exact same thing for no compensation other than their contribution to their fellow comrades because the all knowing, saintly members of their govt with complete control will provide them with what they "need", no choices, no communication, and without even thinking of govt. officials personal interest?
Run on sentence and idgaf. Yay communism

>>3844131
Hahahahaha

oh lord

>>3844116
Well it's 4chan I'm not going to write you a novel.

>>3844114

I will grant you have a point there.

But I think a healthy suspicion towards jargon is desirable, because I don't think enforcing insularity of academic discipline is particularly helpful.

It's one of the reasons no one seems to take the humanities seriously anymore. The language is so exclusionary, and it doesn't have to be.

Well, like I said, you still have a point.

>>3844142
>strawman markets
Manufacturing capital of the world economy as opposed to the potemkin economics of the west.

>>3844154
Undoubtedly towards jargon, but saying "anarcho-syndicalism" or some other word actually describes a theory. The humanities like sociology I would agree with you, however, because they hide behind words due to the paucity of their discipline.
In history and politics, on the other hand, words need to be, such as "teleology". Calling teleology "history moving towards a direction" is not going to help or hinder the understanding of the concept itself, so I have to disagree when you say language is exclusionary in this way. Maybe the concepts are exclusionary, but not the language.

>>3844154
The schools of the humanities have been prone to jargon since scholasticism. That waned under the influence of the noble taste of the European courts but increased in the 19C after their decline. At any rate, it's a natural characteristic for an isolated group to develop their own language.

As to the reason the humanities aren't taken seriously is because under the presently advanced state of capitalism the economic usefulness of the humanities is basically not demonstrable.

>>3844159
>potemkin
Chinese real estate markets makes up 13% of its GDP. Chinese real estate market=total farce.
You do know they've built entire cities in China that stand empty, right?
>manufacturing capital of the world
The spoils of controlling business regulation, the monetary system, and owning the businesses themselves.

>>3844147
So cute :)

>>3844174
Lol, and? In the US over 100% of GDP is debt.

>>3844180
>debt
>implying the US isn't funding China's GDP

>>3844183
They have dropped some "stimulus" packages on China only because the United States is dependent on China, the world's second largest economy and second largest importer. China is the future of capitalism.

>>3844154
Suspicion toward jargon is fine.

Refusal to acknowledge specificity is another. Certain terms have certain valences in disciplines (eg., English, History of Art, Philosophy, etc.) just as they do in Physics, Chemistry, etc.

Personally, I'm always willing to allow the author some leeway as far as "jargon" goes. This is why I defend Homi Bhabha but view Judith Butler more severely.

>>3844174
That's a few trillion compared with the trillions printed by the FED to prop up a collapsing "potemkin" financial system in the US. Either way, both are examples of the failures of capitalism. I don't see how any of this is an argument FOR capitalism.

>>3844191
When talking about China-USA relations, most commentators begin by pointing out that the USA owes China a trillion dollars (not quite, but let's keep it simple). While this is technically true (China has been purchasing the debt of the USA year after year), it would help to restate it as "The USA funds China's GDP". The USA has been the main contributor to China's growth after the end of the Cold War just like it was the main contributor to Western Europe's growth and to Japan's growth after World War II. In all three cases (Western Europe, Japan, China), growth would have been much slower if the USA had not absorbed a sizeable percentage of the exports of those countries. The products in question were mostly low-tech products that the USA was happy to import instead of producing.

>>3844202
Countries like Germany and Japan eventually managed to develop high-tech economies and become relatively independent of the USA. However, notice that they entered a prolonged period of stagnation or low growth and that, even today, the slightest (economic) cold in the USA inevitably translates into a major (economic) flue in Western Europe and Japan. The dependence is still there, albeit less pronounced, and, on the other hand, those economies have stopped growing the way they used to. China is in the first stage of that evolution: it exports low-tech products to the USA (the kind of products that the USA is happy not to make anymore) and it grows rapidly thanks mainly to those exports. It has not entered the high-tech stage yet. When a country reaches the high-tech stage, its currency also matures (or, better, the USA does not tolerate anymore that the currency is kept artificially low), and the country has to stand a lot more on its own. There is literally no country in the world except for Russia (and small communist countries like Cuba and North Korea) that stands on its own, that can do without the USA. Russia has historically been separated from the economy of the USA, and still is.

>>3844204
Every other major country in the world depends heavily on the USA: it "borrows" know-how from the USA, it obtains capitals from the USA, it exports its products to the USA. The entire world (and especially China) depends on the innovation, on the capital and the market of the USA. Therefore, when one looks at the money that the USA owes China, one is really looking at the "favor" that the USA is doing China. That money is the very money that keeps the Chinese economy going. The USA does this for multiple reasons (last but not least, to fund its own growth), but that's another story. So far, China has been a beneficiary of the generosity of the USA, not the other way around. Whether China's growth continues or not depends in part on its own decisions (check how Western Europe self-destroyed with its reckless policies), but also on what the USA decides to do with China. The viceversa is not true. If the economy of the USA collapses, China's economy will suffer tremendously. If the Chinese economy collapses, the only people who will notice in the USA are the ones who invested in Chinese business and in the Chinese stock market (it will certainly take a toll on the Dow Jones index).

>>3844206
The bottom line is that the Chinese economy depends on the economy of the USA a lot more than the economy of the USA depends on China. The most likely outcome of the next few years is that China will not be able to keep prices low and this will slow its exports (there are countless countries around the world that will be able to keep their prices lower). On one hand its currency will be forced to fluctuate (just like the USA did to Japan in 1985, an event that marked the beginning of the long Japanese stagnation), and on the other hand labor will demand higher wages, not to mention the fact that China's demand will keep pushing the prices of commodities up. For example, wages in China have already increased to the point that Mexico is becoming very appealing for companies based in the USA: in 2000 the Mexican manufacturing worker was five times more expensive than its Chinese counterpart, but in 2012 the Mexican is only 30% more expensive; and that's not counting the cost of shipping goods from China and Mexico to the USA (a cost that is clearly lower in the latter case) nor the time that it takes to ship those goods (months versus days). It used to be that China could offer better infrastructure and a better educated workforce, but now the infrastructure of countries like Brazil and Chile is as good as the Chinese one, and Mexico graduates more engineers than Germany. Economists routinely explain that China needs to create a consumer economy. Good luck with that: Japan is still struggling now with that goal, and China's population is infinitely poorer than Japan's.

>>3844209
That is another problem that China has and the USA does not have. The biggest social problems that the USA has and that could erupt in armed revolts are the Tea Party and the Occupy Movement. Neither is likely to cause much harm to the nation. China, instead, is facing all sorts of subterranean discontent: widespread poverty in the majority of the country (outside of the main cities and even in the suburbs of the big cities), ethnic tensions that never went away (and not only in Tibet and in the Muslim far west), resentment against political corruption, and a pro-democracy movement that keeps quietly expanding. If any of these elements turns violent, the world will learn overnight how fragile the Chinese economy is.
It is not clear how much it matters today that most countries control the circulation of content but this certainly still matters for ecommerce and in general for interconnecting businesses: the USA is the one that invented, deployed, spread and still controls the evolution of a worldwide infrastructure called Internet without which you're cut off from globalization.

>>3844211
Incidentally, the job of running the Chinese economy (and the Chinese state in general) is often in the hands of managers and politicians who were trained in the USA. If they were trained in China, it is likely that they had at least one teacher who was from the USA. Yes: just like in many other allies and de facto colonies of the USA around the world. In 2010 nearly 130,000 Chinese students were enrolled in schools in the USA, a 30% increase from the year before (note that 2010 was the peak of the Great Recession for the USA). It is just a matter of time before the very top of the Chinese hierarchy will include someone with a PhD from the USA.
Then there is the widely reported rearmament program, that feeds the fear that soon the world will be bipolar, with the USA and China confronting each other militarily like the Soviet Union and the USA used to do during the Cold War. This is far-fetched to say the least. China does not have a single soldier in the Americas, nor in Europe. In fact, nowhere in its own continent outside of its borders. The USA, on the other hand, has soldiers deployed in Mongolia, Kyrgizstan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Thailand, the Philippines, a nuclear treaty with China's arch-enemy India, and formal military alliances with Taiwan, Japan and South Korea. It may soon have a base in Uzbekistan and even Myanmar and Vietnam are rapidly establishing closer ties with the USA. The USA absolutely dominates the Pacific Ocean: not only are some islands integral part of the USA (Hawaii), not only are some islands colonies of the USA (Guam, Eastern Samoa) but most of the others (notably the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau) have tight military connections with the USA, and the two regional powers (Australia and New Zealand) rank among the closest allies of the USA anywhere.

>>3844212
China is literally surrounded. It's not only that the Chinese cannot expand in any direction: they can't even escape. If they are an enemy of the USA, they are in some serious predicament.
So much so that China has actually been a very reliable ally of the USA, perhaps more so than a Western country like France. China has veto right at the United Nations but it has rarely used it against the USA. In most international matters China has reluctantly done what the USA wanted, even tacitly approving the intervention in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, and playing a key role in threatening North Korea and Iran. China even tolerates that the USA protects and arms Taiwan, which is technically a runaway province of China. The reason is very simple: the USA has given advanced weapons to Taiwan that would probably cause devastating damage to mainland China if mainland China ever tried to invade Taiwan. Japan could become a nuclear power within weeks, if it wanted to. And both are highly developed countries with technology that mainland China can only dream of: in the event of warfare against Taiwan or Japan, the technological gap would be critical and humiliating.

>>3844213
Viewed from China, the situation is tragic: the USA is encircling China, is signing treaties with all its neighbors, it maintains a huge naval presence in front of China's coasts, it spies China from the sky, it is even arming a runaway province, and all of this despite the fact that China has been very friendly to the USA. How would the USA feel if China deployed troops in Canada and Mexico, signed military treaties with countries all around the USA, sent warships around the coasts of the USA, and even armed some right-wing separatists of Texas?
At the same time, China relies on that "encirclement" for the growth of its economy. China's economic boom would be impossible in a turbulent world. China was the main beneficiary of the "pax americana" that the USA military has maintained in the very seas that, commercially, are dominated by Chinese trade. China imports materials from Africa and Latin America, and exports goods everywhere. All of its imported energy has to go through the Malacca Strait (hence its projects to create land routes via Pakistan and Myanmar). This would be extremely dangerous and expensive if the USA did not protect those trade routes from Asia to other continents. Remove the navy of the USA, and global trade would shrink to what it was before the end of the Cold War: the USA trading with Western Europe and its Far Eastern "colonies" (South Korea, Taiwan, Japan).

>>3844214
We keep hearing that China is the new emerging superpower. What power exactly does this new superpower have? Militarily, virtually none. It can't even scare Vietnam when they yell at each other over some tiny islands. Whenever it behaves like the regional bully, that attitude backfires badly because it sends the neighboring countries into even closer orbits of the USA. The presence of the USA has never been so widespread in the seas that matter to the Chinese, and one reason is that the other countries increasingly want the USA to be there. Whenever China flexes its muscles, it causes its neighbors to welcome more warships from the USA.
Economically, that power is dubious: it can't pressure anyone, but just about every major economy in the world can pressure China. Culturally, this cradle of ancient civilization is simply absorbing more and more of Western culture, science and philosophy. Even the Chinese languages (Mandarin and Cantonese) are threatened to some extent by the emergence of English as the real second language of the country.
If China didn't have such a huge population, it would even make sense for it to just federate with the USA. By being such a giant (of population) in a different continent, it generates fears that are, so far, totally unfounded.

>>3844202
I was referring to the 2008–2009 Chinese economic stimulus plan. The fact that China and the US are trade partners and are interdependent is a separate matter from the fact that debt. Both countries fund each other. But it's the US which has the trade deficit.

>>3844219
>2013
>not understanding monetary value is based almost entirely upon govt. stability.
I'm betting against China's ability to oppress its people into submission forever.

>>3844216
Cool read, anon.

>>3844239
The US seems to be doing it just fine.

>>3844265
Are you barred from the political process? Because the Chinese are.

>>3844278
>Are you barred from the political process?
Pretty much. As are you.

>>3844298
No, I'm not. I can run for office, start an political institution run for office myself. Also, might I ask, what goal are you trying to achieve that US govt. is holding you back from? Because if your like me, nothing. You got nothing going on.

>>3844298
You can stand in front of a tank ...

>>3844311
Sorry replace one of those run for offices with join a political party or vote.

>>3844319
>two parties instead of one
>we freedom

Lel.

>>3844330
More than two parties
Nobody votes for them because you don't care to support anything, even though you seem to care.
What now?

>>3844311
>I can run for office, start an political institution run for office myself.
How much money you got for that?

Do you think everyone has the right to know why they're being detained?

>>3844345
It's a de facto two party system and you get to choose between two puppets put forth by the oligarchs only moderately differing in their level of right wing politics.

It's superior to the Chinese system though in the sense that it tricks Americans into actually believing they have a choice while the yelly fellies have no illusions.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever had their views changed by political argument on 4chan? This thread just looks a bunch of back-and-forth of 'I'm right and you're wrong' mixed in with 4chan jargon.

>>3844372
That's every discussion in the world ever.

>>3844365
>It's superior to the Chinese system
Walmart didn't work in Germany, there's no reason to think US brand freedom would work in China.

>>3844375
Socrates had a pretty good thing going.

But he was a bit of a cunt.

>>3844351
I got nothing, but nobody just talks to people reasonably. You can start with little money like that. They all just shout sound bites in your face and jam random poorly voted legislation examples up your nose. We could start a party just you and me right now if we started talking about every side of every issue, decided a both logical and moral policy then told everybody we could online and irl slowly the plan. It'd take forever and we'd have to skip an election or five, but we could do it.

>>3844401
>In theory. Of course
Sorry, forgot the point. In China, they shoot you for that.

>>3844382
Look at Japan for pete's sake! China is a fucking gold mine

>It's cool and transgressive when William Burroughs or Hunter Thompson does it.
>It's mindless consumerism/capitalism when working class people do it.

>>3844431
Do what?

>>3844437
Dabble in hedonism.

>>3844375
I've actually been swayed from religion to agnosticism and from centrism to left concepts by the internet. I do recognize that discussion is hopeless among us primates.

>>3844431
>>3844447
That's a good point. Someone will break it half, though, I'm sure.

>>3843473
>>3843189
>this guy is trolling. or sperging
>did you even watch the film

The "dionysiac" (in its french-colloquial-dropping) new yorker review that idiot film student is poorly aping touches directly on the points I focused on
>The movie’s calculated blankness, its affectless view of excitement... giving the viewer the pleasure and defying the viewer to judge it priggishly.
>The movie isn’t so much an elaborate put-on as it is a simulacrum.

contrast with
>but not, I think, to the point of absurdity, to the point of satire or criticism.
>it was created... to follow in line with hyperrealism... a glamorization of reality
Hello? Simalucrum, hyperreality? Baudrillard, anybody? Am I just missing that "je" "ne" "se" "qua" that you wouldn't respect me to discuss the same shit Brody does?

And I repeat, "culture of late capitalism" is not referring to the fucking economic system of capitalism, you're calling me the autist? This thread is filled with more bullshit than /tv/'s mindless surface bashing ie >>3841570

sauce: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/movies/2013/03/spring-breakers-review.html

>>3844465
>The "dionysiac" (in its french-colloquial-dropping) new yorker review
Do you even know what dionysiac means?

>>3844508
1. I'm not being serious
2. I'm using it as it was used in the article: wild, ecstatic, spontaneous
3. Yes, do you?

>>3844522
>>3844522
Since you've not responded I'd also like to point you to the cleverness of joke #2 in my well-crafted but humorous rebuttal
>Am I just missing that "je" "ne" "se" "qua"

Of course, I reveal I do know exactly what that so-called "special something that I can't put my finger on" by my very use of the phrase: I'm missing a dated outsourcing of french pretentiousness!!
Except, obviously now that I've announced the once hidden (<-sarcasm) irony of my post, you can revel in my postmodern (deleuze) pretension, and reevaluate my post for its worth while retaining your self-respect (critical)!!!

this thread blows

>>3844465
U hyst asjed uf ut was wirf watchin frend

>>3844590
The "actually" expressed an intellectual disdain, imo, that very likely comes from a misinterpretation that was the result of, imo, his own stupidity and inability to understand smart things and culture, rather than the movie's, imo jk

>>3844614
and hence, ie, imo, surface bashing, which, might I note, is the central theme of my essay on spring breaker themes, ie >>3841267 jk

>>3844614
But is it worth watching?

>>3844630
Well, that's up to your taste. It's certainly a valuable movie, it's reasonably dense in subject and is undeniably excellent in its technical execution, from the cinematography, to the clothing and acting. It's not as "arthouse" as Korine's other films, it's no Trash Humper, its probably closest to Kids, if that counts. But it's also not as consumable or lighthearted as Bay's Pain & Gain. It's in a similar vein to Cronenberg, de Palma, Lynch, Friedkin, Haynes in a sort of "artistic appreciation," or asks for a sort of "artistic appreciation," of "low" or "trash" content, though not "genuinely" "low", ala, maybe Ferrara or Anger. So if you can't dig that, you probably won't enjoy it, as i said, it's a matter of taste.

>>3844660
I'll give it a shot since I loved Kids. Thanks for the elaborate response friend.

>>3844660
But also I think if you're not an asshole you can appreciate in a way you might Heat, because it is a well crafted movie, an expertly guided experience, regardless of what you think it has or does not "have to say".

>>3844673
No problem, a bit of a shame you didn't get to see it while in theaters though.

>>3844365
It's basically uncontroversial and the consensus in political theory that the US is a one party state.

>>3844372


i used to support gun control before 4chan.

i also used to be alot more misanthropic before 4chan.

http://therightstuff.biz/2013/03/23/glasnost-and-pepperoni/

>>3844365
>knows nothing of actual political activity
Take off the tin foil, psycho.

>>3845162
>being this naive

>>3844872
>more misanthropic before 4chan.
What?

>>3845515
Please learn something. Please. It sickens me to see the intelligent of the world scared out of the political process by conspiracy theories.