/lit/ - Literature

I don't see the point in trying

I don't see why it should be.

>>3780685
Well I just think it's so easy to stay cynical about everything and not really very rewarding and doesn't help anyone very much
>>3780689
Me neither

I'm also wondering, like, I know utilitarianism is kind of the idea of taking like an economical approach to your life, making the choices with the least opportunity cost and the highest satisfaction and stuff, but I was wondering what that's called when you apply it to a whole society, like if I were to strive to make the choices with the least opportunity cost and highest satisfaction for my whole society or the whole world or something. Sorry

>>3780680
By social norm standards of right and wrong?

Absolutely not.

By any other definition or right and wrong?

No.

Why are you asking us? Don't be a fucking faggot. Do what you want to do.

Does cynicism make you happy?

Do you _want_ to be cynical?

You should be asking yourself these questions, not us. Or do you lack critical thinking so much that we need to handle your life choices for you?

>>3780696
Wait maybe I was actually thinking of utilitarianism with that. I just don't want it to be like a hedonistic approach, I don't necessarily want it to be about me. My problem is that I don't necessarily see a real purpose to life because it seems like it's pretty much a really lucky series of events that have gotten us to this point (Of life existing, I mean.) So I think that since there's not any really pre-ordained purpose that we have, why not make it the purpose of trying to improve the lives of everyone ever.

I think that's probably a pretty basic idea and I'm sure lots of philosophers think I'm wrong, but thinking strictly logically, it seems kind of nice. Just the only problem is figuring out what it means to improve lives, like if that means economically, or if happiness is the goal of life, or something like that. And I guess it also to a certain extent presupposes that there's no God, which I don't totally mind.

>>3780706
No need to be snarky! I'm not really asking for my personal betterment here. I want to know what you guys think. I've already started trying, but I'd like to start a dialogue is all. Is that so wrong?

By social norm standards of right and wrong?

Absolutely not.

By any other definition or right and wrong?

No.

>>3780746
Then do you think it should be something people strive for? Do you think the world, and specific people, would be better if things were less cynical?

>>3780707

i understand that you mean well but be careful with all that duty talk

>>3780752
Doesn't everyone believe that?

Being cynical is an inherently negative worldview/perspective, ultimately causing yourself unnecessary unhappiness.

That doesn't mean you should give up critical thinking and just trust everyone and everything, though.

>>3780774
I don't mean it'sour duty really. I guess I feel a need for some purpose for myself, and I wonder if people have arguments against the basic one that I outlined above. Most people probably wouldn't, but I figured since you guys know a lot about philosophy and stuff you would have different ideas and know about philosophers who believe in other ways to live. Or those who say we shouldn't seek a purpose.
>>3780779
That's a good point. I wonder why it's so pervasive then, if on an intellectual level, everyone knows that it's not a good thing. I guess it's gotten kind of hip. I wonder how we can try to break free of that.

>>3780785
>I wonder how we can try to break free of that.

... What?

Just... do it?

Also, I was fairly cynical/brooding/so deep before. It's only hip in media. IRL it's just annoying and off-putting.

The happier/less cynical/outgoing/upbeat version of me is much more popular.

>>3780680
Yes.

>>3780801
I think you're right about it being only hip in media, but I think it's gotten to the point where the media is what people want to be, and it's so constant in that realm that it's lead to a thoroughly cynical culture. Besides urging writers (in all arts) to create more happy nice optimistic characters and life-affirming stories, what can we do as citizens of the world to try to lead it away from all of that?
>>3780804
Why?

>>3780801

>is much more popular.

is that why you prefer it? for that reason alone?

>what can we do as citizens of the world to try to lead it away from all of that?

Why do you feel it's your/our responsibility to?

Cynicism is sometimes fun to read. Do you also think we should remove depressing literature to prevent people from being depressed?

>>3780839
No. Because it makes me feel ultimately happier. Even without the popularity aspect.

>>3780842
It makes the world a very bleak place. I don't mind its being there, and I don't look to censor it in any way. But it's not exactly productive, and I think it can actually be the opposite. You're right, it's fun to read, but I'm worried that people take it as much more than that, like it's a guide on the correct way to live, and that makes me worried that we'll go further and further into this nihilistic place. I think it's probably an age thing though, I'm obviously in an age group where it's more of a problem than most. Maybe I just hope people grow out of it.

I should be clear that I don't think I'm proposing some well thought out idea or plan, I'm just trying to firm up and figure out some ideas I have.

>>3780859

what do you suppose /is/ productive?

>>3780863
I don't know. It's a good question. But this constant cynicism certainly isn't, and having hope and love for the world seems like it might be just a little more.

>>3780868

you can't really qualify something as not productive if you can't qualify anything as productive, can you?

>>3780870
Well like I said — "Hope and love." Maybe it sounds trite, but I think it is productive.

>>3780859
>But it's not exactly productive

When is literature ever productive?

You want productive? Try sciences. Try technical skills.

At the end of the day literature is entertainment. A medium for which an author can convey his thoughts to an audience. Sure, it's more intellectual than most mediums; you'll probably learn more about yourself/life/etc. reading literature than you would watching family guy. But it's still just entertainment.

>>3780813
I was referring to actual Ancient Cynicism, the philosophical school that existed for hundreds of years, influenced everything and was full of love for life and jolly happiness and simplicity.

The contemporary use of 'cynical' is as corrupted as its use of 'stoic' or 'epicurean'.

>>3780883
A slave produces, the Ubermensch -- LIVES.

>>3780883
That's good, then. I more mean in life in general though. Not necessarily cynicism in literature. I thought this was the place because I think a lot of the cynicism in life comes from literature.
>>3780889
Oh, yeah, I wasn't. Sorry for the confusion.

>>3780892
I don't necessarily mean productive in that kind of way, but productive in the meaning of making the world a better place for more people.

does anyone else feel like there's been a backlash against cynicism lately? in a way that affirms virtue and duty and a very narrow, practical and technical set of interests/passions?

it's almost like as culty as the culture of pessimism. you've got your computer science/engineering le redditors affirming that things ought to be this specific way

>>3780899

> but productive in the meaning of making the world a better place for more people.

why should that be a priority of anyone's?

>>3780892
lives poorly.

>>3780907

define "poorly"

>>3780902
I hope I haven't come across as closedminded or arguing for constant practicality in interests like that. I'm very interested in arts, much more so than I am the STEM kind of things. I don't want to misrepresent myself here.
>>3780903
I knew this would come up. I sort of outlined my ideas on that in my second two posts:
>>3780696
>>3780707
Basically, I don't think it necessarily should be the priority of anyone, but on the other hand, I don't see why it shouldn't be. And I personally think it's the best way to live, just sort of instinctually. I was hoping people would be able to come along and challenge those ideas. Also see what I said here: >>3780785

>>3780911
Poor in happiness, but wealth as well if you're really rejecting productive labor.

>>3780925

>productive

there's that word again

>>3780925

>the ubermensch lives poorly in happiness

are u kidding me

OP here. Thanks for the thread guys. You've helped me work through some things I've been thinking about, or at least made me feel more confident in the things I already believed. See you all around!

I actually really enjoy being a jaded, vile dismissive cunt a lot of the time. It makes me rather happy. Often I adopt opinions merely to make the conversation interesting and sophist my way to victory, reaping ideological havoc and destruction as much as possible. It's just a pleasant activity to slander, well, anything basically. That doesn't mean I don't love life or that I don't like people, I actually really do. It means that I love doing away with flowery decorations of life, with coping mechanisms that debase it. I find life and people more bearable through a cynical lens than through a filtered clusterfuck of enhanced colours. When Diogenes was asked why one should be a Cynic he responded "So as not to deceive oneself." Granted his Cynicism was very different from that of our times, but the happy slandering remains a part of it.

There are probably two types of cynical people today: Idealists in mourning and sledgehammer sophists who feel free at last when they've taken down the last of obligatory limitations. Schopenhauers and Stirners, perhaps.

>>3780973

i imagined your picture as you while you're fucking shit up with your imaginary sledgehammer

what about hybrids of the two?

>>3780982
Sounds like a transition phase. You can't mourn forever. I've found personally that the sort of defeatist pessimism, once you get to terms with the nature of things, turns into something more accepting and eventually perhaps embracing. Something like the 'Dionysian pessimism' Nietzsche hinted at in The Gay Science, where the pessimism mostly denotes a not shunning away from any aspect of life, an amor fati, in contrast with the 'smiling with blinders' approach that's so common among optimists.

>>3780973

10/10 post.

>>3780680
Theres a difference in knowing how the world works and wishing how it would be

>>3780973

>>3781106

cool, you just spent nearly an hour searching for that picture?

>>3781127
I agree with him, you sound like a tryhard "edgy" fag.

>>3781127
You know, a lot of people on 4chan have image micros.

We're kinda popular for that kind of stuff xDxD

>>3781134

i'm not the person who wrote the post you're referring to as "tryhard 'edgy'" but if you're going to use "fag" as an insult i'm absolutely not going to take your opinion seriously

>>3781149

fag

I lived life with optimistic abandon. I then applied absolute criticism to myself. Then, having failed at life, I live without judgment.

>>3781149

tryhard edgy fatcat

better?

>>3781183

>>3780804

Goddamn, I'm not that into philosophy but this is seriously some Confederacy of Dunces-tier shit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope

What a great man.

>>3780883
>Science
>technical skills
Any of your accomplishments will just be wiped out with time, so why bother? You're not going to be productive, just trick yourself into thinking you are.

>>3781270
I sincerely hope his meeting with alexander the great occured,
One of the funniest meeting in history, and speaks volumes for both parties character, almost like a monty python sketch or something

>>3780804
mfw i just purchased timon of athens and i'm starting it right fucking now.
"The many allusions to dogs in Shakespeare’s Timon of Athens are references to the school of Cynicism that could be interpreted as suggesting a parallel between the misanthropic hermit, Timon, and Diogenes"

>>3781270
>>3781403
In case you want to dig deeper:

http://members.optushome.com.au/davidquinn000/Diogenes%20Folder/Diogenes.html
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/cynics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(philosophy)
http://www.iep.utm.edu/cynics/
http://www.mediafire.com/?zp2ppnxjwj28c

>>3780680
OP u got cynicism wrong
The one today is totally different from one in Ancient Greece

>>3782672
He hasn't got it wrong, he's talking about the contemporary version.