/lit/ - Literature

It devolves into the notion that if you do charity in private it makes you a better person.

Charity should benefit the recipient more than the benefactor.

>>3758366

Dig a bit on Kant's moral theory.

/thread

>>3758376
I think in most cases of mercy and charity they are entirely oblivious to what has happened. Does this mean I cannot take a bit of satisfaction from it?

I don't see why it "should" benefit the recipient more than the selfless giver. And the former notion seems plain silly.

>>3758388
The point is it doesn't matter how you feel from giving charity. What matters is what the recipients think.

Charity is merely an excuse. It conveniently allows you to take off the burden of guilt and even (priceless bonus) to consider yourself above "the average person". It's like sucking your own dick but with more external consistency.

>>3758393
If it doesn't matter then it is not even slightly reprehensible for me to take pride in it. The recipients thoughts do not even figure because they are usually ignorant of what they've been given.

because you don't matter

in any case sparing yourself from criticism and praising yourself spares you from the negative which you need to overcome in bettering yourself. self-praise is self-defeat; it is resting.

Yeah the idea of humility is a tough one.

I mean if you give some money to somebody you know could do with it, then shun any attention, you're classes as humble.

Wanting to have your deed acknowledged, like many do these days by filming themselves doing charitable deeds (2013 and 2014 will see a huge rise in the number 'good acts caught on camera') paints you as a narcissist and an egomaniac.

Humility is something to be respected in one sense, because it shows that you're doing a good thing because you have a strong conscience, and that you're not doing it for external rewards.

In another sense however it does border on the self-loathing, like feeling the need to constantly be giving yourself away to others and make them happy because you somehow feel like your very existence is shameful, and that this shame can only be overcome through continued acts of self-abasement or charity.

>If it doesn't matter then it is not even slightly reprehensible for me to take pride in it.

Correct.

>The recipients thoughts do not even figure because they are usually ignorant of what they've been given.

Whatever.

>>3758399
>in any case

Not in this case because this is not every case, and in no way is the giver of charity open to criticism for their generosity. Maybe unwarranted self-praise, but not warranted self-praise.

"Don't be so modest. You're not that great."

Don't know where I heard that, but it's fucking clever.

>>3758407
Hah. I am so robbing that as the opener to some piece of writing.

>>3758404
My use of "in any case" was not literal.

Really it is the public aspect of self-praise that I find wholly unnecessary and unhelpful. perhaps it is strengthening to step back and admire what you've accomplished, but I'm not interested in such things. I want to accomplish more, and getting there is only possible with critique, not with praise and especially not with pride

>>3758407
lel. yes.

>>3758413
Again you seem to be deviating from charity and abusing the idea of self-praise on all fronts. This solely relates to taking pride in yourself for performing charitable acts. Not shamelessly taking pride in every little thing you touch as though you were Midas himself, infallible and perfect.

>most "charity" is "for the best"

You've gotta be SELFLESS

>>3758421
Impossible, but noble.

>>3758386

This guy knows where it's at.

>>3758417
I wouldn't say I'm abusing the notion of self-pride so much as pointing to its uselessness. If you want me to be specific, then even taking pride in one's charitable acts is reprehensible, if not worse. What can it accomplish? Can it make you more charitable? I would think not - if anything the more honest motive to further charity is the pressing shame of not having done enough, not the sucking pride of having done so much and wanting to feel more of that sweet feel-goodiness

Charity: Finding out what is needed from the receiving end of the forthcoming charity and then that request being fulfilled.

Christ can probably answer your question better than I can, anyways

>>3758441
He said, "No."

>>3758388

You can take satisfaction in it but not pride lest that pride becomes your motivating reason for doing so in which case your charity is less an exercise in helping others but instead in raising your own self-esteem.

>>3758452
Pride is pride. It happens. It doesn't control you unless you choose to.

>>3758366
It's basically the core of what Jesus taught us.

>>3760058
>because a shepherd's pal said so

I just like to point out that this discussion is merely... abstract? Useless?

A bread feds the same, regardless the intention you give it.

>>3758386
mah nigga

>>3758386
yeaaah boyyyyy

>>3760058
>It's basically the core of what Jesus taught us.
No, you asshat.

The core of what Jesus taught is the Resurrection and the subsequent Kingdom of God.

The other happy-feely hippie shit has nothing to do with religion or Jesus, it's just standard mental and social hygiene common to all human beings.

Because it makes you a self-righteous dick. And self-righteous dicks are annoying. That's why.

Because that isn't Charity, OP, it's Vanity.

What ethical schema do we want to operate under?

There's been a camp of people who have touted Kantian ethics, but seem not to have said much more than just dropping the name.

I keep thinking that the thread might have been started in the vain of Ayn Randian selfishness vs altruism. ...where selfishness is actually GOOD, and altruism BAD. Where a person who performs a "selfless" act, actually did it out of the SELFISH motivation of getting feelsgoodman.jpg, and a truly "altruistic" act is one where the actor is not redeemed by anything: they hate everything about their "altruistic" act. ...pure masochism (ignoring the paradox).

Then there's virtue ethics which I think is the proper way to come at this problem. One can be good when they perform a charitable act insofar as they act charitably--they have cultivated the virtue of kindness. The game's not over at this point though (as it never is or ever will be until the time of death). After said charitable act is completed, our hero now has countless other opportunities to thrive or faulter in virtue. If they went about bragging about it or something, then they are pretty clearly cultivating excessive pride. ...Not good, but it's a seperate thing from the charity itself.

Christfags, I think, actually end up in the virtue ethics camp in that christian ethics don't so much explain how to be good than try to give examples. Hence the popular phrase "christ's example."

And the Utilitarians would say charity is just good for the pleasure (or relief from pain) that it brings. Bragging about it could be good too since that would increase "pleasure" or "happiness" or "utility" in the giver as well. ...though some might want to take a more nuanced approach and say that, in the long run, the man who brags will not end up being happy.

So which view do you like?

Charity is a theological virtue, it only makes sense if you are a Christian. If you can't do Charity for the sake of the Christian God or for the sake of Neighbour Love then you will up doing it for your own sake, to feel proud. Feeling pride over small acts of kindness and forgiveness is really pathetic. I think the people that feel high-and-mighty when they can do something trivial and convenient for person are the people that Jesus called, "the poor in spirit".

>>3760236
>charity only makes sense if you are a Christian
Are you a troll, bro?

Virtue ethics say charity is good because the virtuous man acts charitably or kindly. Kantian ethics may or may not say charity is good (it depends on the "maxim" we use to frame our actions). Utilitarian ethics are DEFINITELY down with charity, because it makes people feel good.

The fact of the matter is that if people think you give for selfless reasons (e.g. genuine concern for your fellowman), as opposed to motivations of personal pride, they will think you - at your base of character - to be a better person.

Irrespective of argument or reason that's just how most people are; arguing otherwise is of little personal gain. You can still have pride in your charitable act of course, just make sure no one who is important is aware.

back off op, mask girl is MY waifu

If you give something to others and take pride in it then it can be seen a display of power over the recipient. This makes the act oppressive rather than helpful.

>>3760308
Do we want to talk about whether taking pride in ones good deeds is actually good or bad, or just how it is seen?

Socially speaking, it is true that it is very easy to look like an attention whore for doing charity--particularly for the very rich and powerful. ...donating money to a fund so your name can be on a museum wall or creating some other kind of monument to yourself. Still, there is a certain amount of socially acceptable pride one is allowed to feel for their good deeds. The line you cross, I guess, is if you talk about it without being asked.

...But that's all just on the "appearance" side of things. For ideas about whether pride in one's good deeds is ACTUALLY good or bad, go to the views listed in >>3760224

>>3758366
Being obsessed with your self-image is the cause of a lot of mental suffering. Doing good deeds and taking pride in it enforces this obsession. It's a form of vanity. If you care about being a good looking person you will be upset when you have a bad hair day or break your nose or get a scar or a pimple or whatever. When you aren't obsessed with how you look, these things will leave you relatively unphased.

The same goes for some kind of ethical vanity. Taking pride and identifying yourself with good deeds will set you up for a load of suffering when you fuck up, which is bound to happen. And so this vanity gets in the way of any peace of mind.

Being charitable and proud of it only benefits others. Being charitable selflessly benefits both yourself and others.

A lot of these selflessness tricks end up in your own benefit and what can seem denying yourself joy will end up making you happier in the long run.