/lit/ - Literature

define 'really'

>>3641546
objectively

>>3641553
If they are, they are intelligible. It probably is not the same as 'exist really'. I hope it helped with your dilemma.

Obviously

>>3641553
Nothing exists objectively, silly.

>>3641610
>Nothing exists objectively, silly.
But, Monsieur. Does your inability to objectively prove the existence of something prevent it from existing?

>>3641627
It prevents it from being relevant or worthy of discussion, at least. Which should technically lead merely to scepticism, but I like to make a stand and cut it out of consideration altogether. Nihilism is scepticism that has lost it's patience. Theoretically unsound, but pragmatically fruitful.

of course they do

We are but figments of your imagination OP.
I'm breaking the rules by telling you this. I'm doomed, but i must end your torment. Everything is built up around *you*. We are not real. You percieve us as real, your belief of our reality makes us that, but we do not exist, only you. If your little piece of land in the sea of nothing you call real has two characters called "God" and "Satan" who would know? Believe them, and they will be very real.

The idea that two entities are fighting over my soul makes me feel loved? No.

>>3641723
le twilight face.exe

moar mermen pls

>>3641534

they exist...in the deepest layer of our unconsciousness

they both really exist...at the core of everyone's spirit. you must use the mind's eye mirror. be careful. it's a dangerous road. you might not like what you find. ambiguity on one hand and certain faggotry that inspires posts like this on the other.

>>3641894
>>3641836
seconded.

>>3641642
>>3641894
Shit. I don't know what to believe.

I guess I'm a daydream believer.

>>3641894
I ate a lot of mushrooms and listened to this and even read the Bible.

Nothing of value was gained within the literature, but perspective was gained that there is a dichotomy, but I refuse to play that game. Sorry.

>>3641954
>perspective was gained that there is a dichotomy
>not spectrum
Eat some more illegal narcotics, hippie.

>>3641954
ween is my girlfriend's favorite band. i'll never understand this side of her.

>>3641960
The ends of the spectrum seem rather silly and nuanced, my friend.

>>3641972
Life is a big colossal joke to her, my friend.

Being forced to make a decision about something that lies at a person's core? How plebbie.

>>3641978
It's a "lifestyle choice" not a religious ultimatum, plebbie.

>>3641534
i don't know.
agnostic master race here.

>>3641995
But within agnosticism, you can choose to consider it or to not think about it at all perhaps.

>>3642013
They usually "get you" when you are a babbie, and do the "Shock n Awe" to force you into their mind control machine.

>>3642066
"They" being MOMMY

>>3641534
I don't think so.

I like the God and Satan characters however.
Listen "Lapsed Catholics by Future of the Left".
Describes my opinion well.

>>3641995
agnosticism is such a retarded religious position
it's like you're smart enough to realize that you can decide not to believe in some jewish storm god, but not smart enough to move on to a more advanced conception of religion and god, and too much of a pussy to just say you're atheist.

>>3642066
getting mad at your parents for indoctrinating you into some religion is as stupid as getting mad at them for "indoctrinating" you into their style of dress or something

>>3641836
Pro-tip: Jung did not mean this literally.

>>3642295
American detected.

I fucking hate this conversation, everyone on every side is a fuckwit if they agree to the popular conception of the topic.

>>3642307
This. In Europe proper it's considered borderline child abuse to raise your children religiously.

>>3642312
Europe is correct on this.

It would go so far to say it IS child abuse.

>>3641610
nothing can exist objectively unless there is a single objective truth [God]

>>3642319
>Single objective truth
>[Sex]
Fixed.

>>3642314
Why?

Religious people are happier, produce more children, earn more . . .

>>3641534
>God and Satan are just characters in literature, amirite?

Yes

>I mean, they don't exist REALLY???

Conclusion does not follow from premise.

>>3642328
Are these "objective facts"?

>>3642345
"Objectively" you have to break a few eggs to make on omelet. Nobody cares about a few faggots that don't jive with religion. It mostly is successful, so there.

Objective is a fancy word for physical force.

>>3642328
It causes massive cognitive dissonance and alienation in a secular society and increasingly so as time moves on. Believing in God is like believing in the Easter bunny among the young. I also don't think the statistics (if even) you mention hold sway for Europe. If anything, I thought that Danes are the happiest people, yet they're mostly non-religious.

>>3642373
>It causes massive cognitive dissonance and alienation in a secular society and increasingly so as time moves on.
seconded.

>>3642373
yes, but no one is harmed by raising your child in your custom.

If the boy is a fool and is religious as well then no harm, and if the boy is not a fool and tosses faith to the wayside then why bother complaining about his upbringing. He's all the smarter for coming to his own reasoning instead of never questioning it.

>>3642422
>yes, but no one is harmed by raising your child in your custom.
Your child is.

>If the boy is a fool and is religious as well then no harm
Except he will have a hard time finding friends with the same beliefs, leading him into the arms of somewhat secluded religious communities, creating an outsider position for him that will grow increasingly distant from mainstream society as time goes on. Being a fool this can lead to more and more trouble and suffering.

>and if the boy is not a fool and tosses faith to the wayside then why bother complaining about his upbringing. He's all the smarter for coming to his own reasoning instead of never questioning it.
Costing him years of his life, struggle, crisis possibly depression, alienation from his parents and a life long coming to terms with an indifferent universe that is contrasted with the comfortable but unmaintainable coping mechanisms of his parents.

In both cases probably accompanied by all kinds of guilt. It's downright cruel.

>>3642422
But the thing about true indoctrination is that it doesn't matter if you're a fool or not. I think we're all aware of the ways religion has of sort of circumventing regular reasoning.

>>3642422
Instilling your child with the belief that 'everything because of X and X will take care of it' in it's formative years when it's basically biologically inclined to take everything you say for truth in the full knowledge that society will destroy those ideas later on, leaving him suddenly without a reason to be and a reason to be end well, is abusive.

>>3642463
but society indoctrinates everybody with millions of beliefs with little to not basis in reality that may lead to pain if they turn out to be false

human existence is abusive

>>3642463
>the full knowledge that society will destroy those ideas
what about when this happens without that full knowledge. i think it is kind of hopeful to give a child beliefs, and on the off chance that they don't become crushed by the shit of the world imagine how lucky they will be.

>>3642478
>"It's not wrong"
>"Okay it's wrong
>"Everything is wrong so it's not wrong"

I think that's a circular argument, but I'm not sure

>>3642493
Perhaps emblematic of the harm done.

>>3642493
if indoctrinating children is wrong, pretty much the entirety of human socialization is wrong. you just have a bone to pick with religion.

>>3642493
he's saying that if you wish to not instill the boy with religion, at least drop the bloody pretense and don't instill any of the false beliefs society holds which we both know won't happen.

>>3642463
In it's early years its too young to be having these crises, so we delay them until they grow older.

Just like society needed religion in its formative years you twat.

I know that religion helped me out of an existential funk or two back when I was 8 or 9

>>3642443
And yet you say it yourself, most intelligent youth today aren't religious.

>>3642505
but don't you know that liberals hold black magick rituals in order to get their beliefs to take hold

>>3642327
Sex is a social construct.

>>3642522
It's my favorite. Don't knock it.

>>3642524
but it's the only think I can knock

>>3642478
That doesn't justify adding even more to them. But I agree, there is a certain inherent cruelty to having children. Not that I'm an antinatalist in general, but I couldn't justify doing it myself.

>>3642488
But they will be crushed. Keep in mind I'm still talking about Europe here where religion is mostly a peculiarity of the elderly and immigrants and can't be helped but be looked down upon.

>>3642503
Growing up is hard enough without providing your environment with extra ammunition for ridicule and exclusion. It's not as much about falseness of beliefs as it is about their incompatibility with society.

>>3642510
Children don't need religion in their formative years. See secular Europeans.

>>3642546
Wouldn't the environment of creating such a hostile environment against religion be the basis for alienating and isolating religious individuals?

Aren't you just replacing one social dissonance with another?

Being agnostic in a Christian environment fucked me up when I was a kid but I would expect the same in an inverted situation. There's too much hostile doctrines with and against religion regardless of our own positions.

>>3642577
>Being agnostic in a Christian environment fucked me up when I was a kid

Nah, you were just a pussy.

>>3642546
>but I couldn't justify doing it myself.

Well thank God for that...

>>3642546
>See secular Europeans.
The virile continent you mean? The continent which is dying of old age? The continent that is regressing?

No, thank you, keep your coffee and croissants Europe (and rapidly increasing mean age).

>>3642584
I know, and because of that it was worse for me. I got my ass kicked and ganged up on several times.

>>3642546
>Growing up is hard enough
>Children don't need religion in their formative years

Do you not see how divorced these two sentences are?

>>3642584
a pussy as a result of his genetics coupled with environment. It's not his fault, it was predetermined. Why should he suffer?

>>3642599
When religion is poised to alienate homosexual youth, how can you say it is universally good? Perhaps some judgment can be used, if it's not too much trouble, based on who your child is.

Religion is a perfect circle, don't knock it with reality.

>>3642609
Maybe the Earth is flat and we just bend it when we look at it.

>>3642577
>Wouldn't the environment of creating such a hostile environment against religion be the basis for alienating and isolating religious individuals?
Yes, but that's the way it is. Putting a child into the world you'll have to work with what you get. In a secular environment that means no religion if you want him to be well adjusted.

>>3642592
I mean the continent with the highest standard of living and the greatest intellectual climate, yes. Couldn't think of a better place to live, even if its regressing.

>>3642599
Religion makes it harder in a secular environment where you will eventually have your toys taken from you.

>>3642607
Not all religion isolates religious youth.

>>3642618
>isolates homosexual youths

Woops, at first I thought I wrote not all homosexuality isolates religious youths which would have probably been a bit more humorous

>>3642607
>When religion is poised to alienate homosexual youth, how can you say it is universally good?

>tolerance of homosexuality as a measure of how 'good' something is.

Ladies and gentlemen, the progressive mind.

>>3642616
>Religion makes it harder in a secular environment where you will eventually have your toys taken from you.
Youth in the US embrace atheism by the time they are 15.

>>3642607
There are homosexual movements that attack the social norm. There are religious groups that tolerates homosexuality. There are extremes, there are norms, there are exceptions to everything. The point is that belief, faith, and ideals are not objectively based but rather abstract ideas of conveniences.

>>3642618
The idea is to "save" as many people as possible to be in your group.

>>3642625
We're talking about treatment of children. Religion is concerned about destroying children if they are aware of older gay couples.

>>3642628
We have full blown nihilism for that stage here.

>>3642624
It's not good for the homosexual kid.

>>3642628
Why is your country still so religious then?

>>3642634

>>3642637
Because the youth don't make up 100% of all people

>>3642637
It's only half super religious. It's dying out.

>>3642635
>homosexual kid

>>3642627
That's the idea behind all political, religious, social groups.

>>3642633
And once again only the extremes of the religion actively attacks homosexuality and instills violence into children. That is not rooted into religion but into the parents themselves and their personal choices. As a non-religious individual you can breed the same hate and contempt against individuals and groups into a child.

>>3642650
that was literally my exact response. Who has that image with the proud father and 6 year old "gay" son

>>3642655
>social groups.
Some groups focus on disdain without the group.

>>3642655
The extremes do it while the center shrugs.

>>3642639
>>3642643
When are you going to reach our levels of nihilism? It's liberating.

>>3642669
probably once the world is annihilated in 4 years.

>>3642669
We are building a tower of Babel. brb

y'all moderns need some Tradition up in here

>>3642312
It's not like this in Italy..

>>3642312
>This. In Europe proper it's considered borderline child abuse to raise your children religiously.

Or to reveal their biological sex to them before they're 30.

>>3642683
That's because you're a dumb wop.

>>3642683
I tricked you. I said 'Europe proper' implying that if it's not the case in your country you don't count as part of that. I know it's a bit different in the south though, especially in the Papal States.

>>3642687
Lelno. They actually learn pretty fast since we're not puritans and nudity isn't taboo here.

>>3642724
You don't subscribe to the Paulist notion that the abnegation of sex except for procreation is the basic method of elevating an individual from beast to citizen?

>>3642724
>Lelno. They actually learn pretty fast since we're not puritans and nudity isn't taboo here.

>Implying "penises" are anything but patriarchal social constructs

Everything is a vagina, haven't you been attending your cultural education classes?

>>3642755
This isn't /pol/ you know, your shitty attempt at humor won't amuse anyone.

>>3641534
no, God is an author, we are the characters in literature. Satan is annoying editor trying to get the book to appeal to modern transgressive audiences.

>>3642734
No. See Greeks.

>>3642793
This.

You need to into Creative Imagination, oppy.

>>3642827
Let's get new material to work with, oy?

>>3641534
>>3641534
>God and Satan are just characters in literature, amirite?
>I mean, they don't exist REALLY???

Yeah. Any one who has actually read the source material all the way through from begining to end knows that.

Also I too am a fellow merman lover. Even though they aren't real either

>>3642793
>hating on based Judeo-Promotheus Lucifer

Please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmin5WkOuPw

i'll just go ahead and be the genius rebel criticize modern society’s beliefs.

this thread sure is filled with normalfags

also camus a shit

>>3643100
>modern society
is changing. suck it.

>>3642373
>It causes massive cognitive dissonance and alienation in a secular society and increasingly so as time moves on
Nah, it's only you.

>>3642546
>Europe here where religion is mostly a peculiarity of the elderly and immigrants and can't be helped but be looked down upon
Lol

>>3642724
>I'll give you my definition of Europe
please..

ITT: Dawkins and shit

If by god you mean intelligent design (watch maker god) sure. He just doesn't give a fuck about you or me. There is no Satan.

>>3643411
Stay backwards, Southener.

>>3643957
>he thinks the European south is actually religious

Italy and Greece, for example, were instrumental for Christianity and possess a lot of holy sites, history and traditions which they like to use to attract tourists or reinforce nationalism, which also applies to their ancient past. In practice, this means eating lamb on easter and pie on christmas, much like in the north. If you were baptized, which is pure tradition by now, you are automatically registered as religious/christian unless you unregister at 18, which most people don't care or even know about. If these countries switched some technicalities around their atheist levels would increase by a lot.

>all these nu/r/atheistfags

When will /lit/ not be raided?

>>3643994
>baptism
>modernity