/lit/ - Literature

Don't mean to sound like a whiny liberal but why do Conservatives always go around focusing on the most harmful or dangerous ideas in society.

>>3622109

Well that's really their raison d'etre, isn't it. Progressives are meant to be on the look out for how to improve society, conservatives to stop it from getting worse.

>>3622109
isn't that what makes them conservative? I mean, the whole point is that you think society is pretty nice, and needs to be defended from change.

So you go around trying to find what the most harmful or dangerous incoming change is, and you fight it.

>>3622114

Yeah, true. Just think it's a very US conservative thing to make a list of the most harmful books.

Favourite quote in article is about Marx's Das Kapital

>He could not have predicted 21st Century America: a free, affluent society based on capitalism and representative government that people the world over envy and seek to emulate.

Man, I can understand them putting origin of the species, but ...

>On Liberty
>by John Stuart Mill

He could pretty much be another founding father.

I now want a list now that isn't completely biased to right wingers viewpoints.

I'd start it off with Infinite Jest

>>3622121

The article reads as a parody of itself, really. Origin of Species as an honourable mention? Come now.

That list was stupid.
And I consider myself more conservative than (American) liberal.

>>3622130
That one about capitalism that that Russian-American immigrant woman wrote; the one that supported it; capitalism, I mean. It was a really extreme form of capitalism, if I remember.

>>3622318
Ayn Rand, objectivism?

they got Keynes hilariously wrong
>most dangerous conservative books
I'll nominate The Turner Diaries I guess

>CONTRIBUTORS
>David Harsanyi
>Raymond Ibrahim

>>3622321
The humour was inscribed into the syntax; there's no need for your passive aggressive, 'at face value', 'death of the anon' bullshit here.

i don't see the Bible or the Koran on there anywhere.

fuck it, let's go burn some more witches.

SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT

>>3622370
>Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries.

>Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries.

Retard. Go circlejerk over the 'toxic influence of religion' on rebbit.

>>3622350
are you just realy bad at catching jewish names, or what?

>>3622379
I took an exam on it once, my score was so low they graded me as SS

Why do conservatives so completely misinterpret Keynes? His economics weren't based on ever-expanding government influence and spending. He said that governments should increase spending dramatically in times of recession, and then CUT IT AGAIN drastically once disaster had been averted, in order to build up a new monetary surplus for the next crisis. I don't think there's ever been a real Keynesian politician.

>>3622114
>raison d'être

>>3622370
typical new atheist

>>3622105
>Darwin
>Nader

Holy shit, these people.

>>3622416

u mad for some raison

>>3622105
Banned books should be:

>The Torah
>The Bible
>The Koran
>The God Delusion
>The Communist Manifesto

Prove me wrong

actually a pretty good list, would recommend.

>>3622105
I fucking shed a tear for intellectual-conquest when I read this.

>>3622478
Banned books should be:
>Nothing

>Fix'd

>hey everybody come look at this lame circle jerk in this other internet echo chamber
>on /lit/

>>3622524
What about books made entirely out of heroine?

>>3622532
*heroin

>6. Das Kapital
>"He could not have predicted 21st Century America: a free, affluent society based on capitalism and representative government that people the world over envy and seek to emulate."

>>3622532
The Opiate?
Which libraries carry this book and when can I sign up for a library card?

>>3622536
No, that guy's talking about books with female protagonists, in which case, yes, they should be banned.

OF COURSe the Communist Manifesto of all things is above Mein Kampf. That's hilarious

>>3622540
'MURKA

>>3622130
They hate Mill because he was a feminist

Is this site a parody?

>>3622412
>eynes? His economics weren't based on ever-expanding government influence and spending. He said that governments should increase spending dramatically in times of recession, and then CUT IT AGAIN drastically once disaster had been averted, in order to build up a new monetary surplus for the next crisis. I don't think there's ever been a real Keynesian politician.

Why do you believe they misinterpret Keynes? Most of the people making that point about Keynes are conservatives.

I'd likely would have voted for Keynes not because I misinterpret him but because that theory doesn't work in a democratic regime. Proof? Please point out Keynesians who have defended G cuts in non-catastrophic times or even in times of economic growth.

There are bad ideas that don't even work (Marxism comes to mind) and then there are good ideas that don't work. The later can be as dangerous as the former. In fact, the tyranny of good intentions is often the most oppressive one. The US economy isn't in a recession, the public debt is a ticking time bomb and yet I don't see Keynesians asking for government spending.

So people can consider Keynes dangerous because he didn't realize the unintended consequences of his theories. That they are doomed to fail.

Additionally, one can disagree with Keynes at face value without misinterpreting him. Based on moral, methodological or economic disagreements. Can expand if you want.

>>3622580

It has nothing to do with Mill feminism.

It's because of his utilitarianism. I'd refer you to Russell Kirk's "Chirping Sectaries"

>Here Nietzsche argued that men are driven by an amoral “Will to Power,” and that superior men will sweep aside religiously inspired moral rules, which he deemed as artificial as any other moral rules, to craft whatever rules would help them dominate the world around them.

OH SHIT ESSENTIAL MISREADING THERE, CAP!

>>3622412
One issue with that is that Keynes ignored the actual mechanisms through which the surplus/deficit is controlled: government.

Results the field of public choice show that spending increases are very rarely temporary, even if they were at first branded as such. What, after all, is the incentive for a politician to increase taxes or cut spending for their constituents, when the negative effects are spread out (and thus hard to detect) and far away in the future?

>>3622623
from*

>>3622117
>isn't that what makes them conservative? I mean, the whole point is that you think society is pretty nice, and needs to be defended from change.

>A state without the means of change is without the means of its conservation
>Edmund Burke

Conservatives are aware of the dangers and unintended consequences of change imposed by legislation, non-organic change. Especially those based on abstract and strictly rational thinking. Burke's Reflections on the French Revolution is arguably the founding document of modern conservatism if there's one. Id' recommend reading it or at least about it.

Do you remember many conservatives opposed to the rerforms that dismantled the Soviet Union and other communist countries? Or to Thatcher's reforms?

And they don't necessarily believe "society is pretty nice". In most cases, that's not true. What they don't believe is that you can immanentize the eschanton, recreate heaven on earth through legislating optimal political arrangements.

Conservatism is a bit different from other public policy proposals or ideologies because it doesn't lend itself to axiomatic or conceptual explanations (hence why many argue that conservatism isn't even an ideology). It's extremely grounded on the concrete.

>>3622109
They are the Yin to liberaltards' Yang.

Without conservatism to relay the extremes of criticism, the liberaltards would steer too far left and possibly destroy the society as a whole due to pure naive idealism.

>>3622620
>The Nazis loved Nietzsche.

Lel.

>>3622540
>mfw

>>3622636
But they did...

>>3622682
They didn't really, they misappropriated him to sort of diffuse him. Nietzsche screamed "fuck antisemites and the individual must rule fuck politics fuck nationalism fuck germany all germans are plebs fucking untermensch beer swilling dimwitted cunts" etc etc. Nietzsche despised Germans so much that he claimed to be Polish.

>>3622692
He also officially gave up his nationality and became a man without country dwelling mostly in Switserland and Italy. He didn't even have plans of returning to Germany until they dragged his insane ass back there.

>>3622682

They also loved dogs

>The Communist Manifesto
Oh come on. Blaming Marx's work for the bad shit 'communist' governments have done is like blaming Jesus's teachings for the crusades.

>>3622701
Actually, just read the source
>Powerful conservative voices
Never mind.

Have these people actually read any of these books?

>implying I care what a bunch of ass backwards social cancers have to say about, of all things, literature.

>>3622600
I'm just saying, they have a few other feminists on the list, so it wouldn't be surprising if they hated him for that too

>>3622600
>"Chirping Sectaries"

I initially read this as "Chirping Secretaries" and I was like, that books sounds cool, that's my favorite bird

>>3622370
..I got better

>>3622701
This. Communism is not a bad idea..on paper.

>>3622744
Just like capitalism?

>>3622744
The same could be said for market economies.

>>3622478
>Banning books
>2013
Kill yourself

>>3622744
Thanks for pointing out whatever everyone here knows.

The best way to get people to read a book is to ban it.

>>3622478

>banning books

Well, they're right about all of those books being shit apart from 'Beyond Good and Evil' and 'Das Kapital', which still have major flaws.

>>3622759

So you think Dewey, Comte, Adorno, Mill, Skinner, Darwin, Foucault, Beauvoir, Gramsci, Fanon and Freud's books are all shit? All of these books by noted, influential philosophers and academics? I take it you've read all of them?

US paleoconservative here. Disagree on Das Kapital and Mein Kampf, agree on the progressive bible-type books.

I also happen to like Lenin. This is why neoconservatives need to die.

Glad to see the Communist Manifesto, after 150 years has still got it.

seems legit

>>3622781
>being conservative of any kind

I seriously can't wait until the day the last of your kind dies of old age.

Just keel over and drop dead, really.

You are holding humanity back. You are holding progress back. You live in the past. You're blind to the future. You're shite and everything you stand for is shite.

Fuck you.

>>3622795
So's you're mum.

>>3622795
>holding progressives back

Yeah, that's the idea. We're the only thing holding you idiots from pushing us all right off the fucking cliff.

Go fuck yourself.

>>3622795
transhumanist detected

>>3622795
>this is what progressives actually believe
>laughing jew.gif

>Communist Manifesto is worse than Mein Kampf.

What the fuck is wrong with the world?

>>3622795
>shite
>UK talking shit

How's that progressive utopia treating you, UK? Enjoying all the minorities, gays, police state, and complete destruction of anything British that is deemed "offensive" to shitskins?

>>3622813
DIDNT YOU KNOW

STALIN KILLED LIKE, 500 MILLION PEOPLE

HITLER ONLY KILLED LIKE ONLY 6 MILLION

>>3622795
Enjoy slavery.

>>3622815
What do you have against minorities and gays?

>>3622795
>typical "tolerant liberal"

>>3622815
>complete destruction of anything British

Fuck 'anything British'. Being proud of your country or geographical heritage is idiocy in its purest form.

>>3622824
What don't you have against them? How can someone actually want to supplant their own native culture? Don't you feel any kind of pride? Don't you feel any kind of obligation to the people who died to give you the country you have?

Honestly, no trolling, I can't understand liberals because of that. How can someone want to turn their country over to people who had no hand in making it?

>>3622832
This is incredibly stupid. I think that's obvious to everyone here, but I felt it needed to be stated.

>>3622835
>Don't you feel any kind of pride?

Excuse me but what the fuck did YOU do for your country that you're so goddamned proud of it?

You didnt help build it. You didnt help your great-great grandfather pave the roads and train tracks. You probably don't even know who he was or what was his name.

Being patriotic is being proud of things that are out of your control. It's fucking stupid, period.

>Don't you feel any kind of obligation to the people who died to give you the country you have?

Stop romanticizing history. People didn't die in a hale of bullets going in slow-motion while they sang the national anthem and shed a tear. They died by having a piece of metal go through them and then dropped face down in a pool of mud. And that was that. Meaningless waste of lives after meaningless waste of lives for centuries and we're supposed to somehow be guilt-tripped into doing the SAME EXACT THING. No, fuck you.

Being concerned with flags, nationals, "muh ancestors", and all shit is short-sighted. It's missing the big picture. It's being concerned with irrelevant nonsense.

>>3622835
We're not held back by any ridiculous jingoistic flag-waving. You're acting like there's some kind of power struggle here, that guaranteeing equal rights to immigrants and homosexuals will destroy whatever freedoms you and I have as white males. You've been brainwashed by third-wave feminists into thinking that as a white male, you have some sort of political power, and so now you think that the same people who brainwashed you are trying to eradicate the political power that you don't actually have.

>>3622835
>calling them liberals

>>3622857
>>3622858

>>3622860
jidf pls

>>3622860
That doesn't even make any sense, jews would be arguing FOR the establishment, because they control it.

You're getting your "le epic trol :P" posts mixed up, anon.

>>3622795
>conservatives are holding progress back
>GMOs are evil because magic, nuclear power is dangerous because I wasn't paying attention in math class, all science is crap because my literature professor told me it's all subjective anyway, trade and economic growth are evil because something something something equality, women and minorities should get preferential treatment because of reasons (they voted for us), and children shouldn't receive a good education because that would annoy the unions

top lel m8

>>3622866
No, jews want to replace western civilization with the third world because they can control the third wold better.

>>3622867
>conservative thinking liberals are the ones rejecting science and high-quality public education
>>3622860
epic response, /b/rother =)

>>3622636
It was his wife(?) who edited his texts and made them Reich-approved.

>>3622869
Or maybe because they've been persecuted throughout Europe for centuries and feel more comfortable in a diverse society.

hehe

>>3622869
>control the third wold better.
>currently control the US, aka strongest most wealthy nation on this planet, crown of the first world

Are you retarded

>>3622866
Not that anon but since when the establishment consisted of nationalistic ideas? In my country you can't say the world patriot in /tv/

>>3622875
Let's not forget about how well their neighbors around Israel treat them

>>3622876
>implying most of the US isn't the third world that's just first world because it leeches off a few dozen pockets of wealth

Anon, I...

>>3622884
>doesn't know what third world means

yuropoor detected

>>3622884
Still strongest, yuropoor.

>>3622889
>>3622890
I'm American, though.

I think if Nietzsche had read this article he would have been hurt that he didn't make no. 1.

>>3622889
>>3622890
Why does american insecurity always include this counterfeit bravado, decorated with a beating of the chest and the relentless spamming of 'yuropoor'?

>>3622903
Are you sure there's an underlying insecurity?

>>3622857
>You didnt help build it. You didnt help your great-great grandfather pave the roads and train tracks. You probably don't even know who he was or what was his name.

Do you think inheritance is a bad thing.

Once a parent passes away all their belongings should go to the state and not their offspring?

If I cultivated a beautiful and bountiful garden and then pass on, why shouldn't my children be proud of it? Why should the efforts of my labour be reaped upon by those who have naught to do with it, when I made it in mind to be enjoyed by my children?

>>3622857
>It's missing the big picture

Which is?

>>3622915
Money should go to charities once someone passes away. Not to the greedy children that have done nothing, but 'exist'.

>>3622769

>dewey

inflicted almost ireparable damage to the american education system, which as it exists now, is one of the greatest threats to the solvency of its society.

>Foucault

is typical of many post-modern philosophers, such that its full of deconstruction without aim or prescription (and purposely so, in the case of critical theory).

>Freud

typical of many social thinkers in general, wherein they start with a good analysis/idea, and then go full retard with the conclusion/reasoning. set practical psychology back many years.

>>3622929
Welcome to the land of "no one has any incentive to work because you cannot accrue wealth" land.

>>3622929
damn you must have a fucked up family

lel

>>3622858
>muh race and gender

Get over yourselves.

>>3622936
A few entitled pricks, but nothing too fucked up. Some people honestly think they deserve anything because they simply exist.

>>3622857

>>3622907
Yes, Dr., I'm pretty confident it's there. In Freudian terms, America is struggling simultaneously with its anal retentive father issues, and an only partly resolved Oedipal complex. America shows characteristic symptoms of mingled fear and resentment of authority -- especially European and middle eastern authority -- and the usual accompanying basic syndrome: an ambivalent attitude towards foreigners, in which they are seen both as desired objects and as objects which have betrayed it, and therefore merit its revenge and counterbetrayal.

America has specific womb and breast separation traumas, but the compensatory mechanisms they have evolved include a troubled period of separation from the 'English mother breast', obviously expressed in their macho military industrial complex. America has then never been able to accept the initial loss of oral gratification and maternal protection and this has resulted in its aggressive approach to civil disputes, post-colonialism, issues stemming from the Arab spring, mainland Europe, post-Empire Britain, and 'American' life in general.

In short, America conforms to the Adlerian descriptions of 'siblingless' -- here sibling denotes allied countries (allied, in turn, denoting a mutual respect)-- personality traits, and is content to act the role of 'aggressive adolescent teenager', unable to function in a civilised world. America is aware --above the subconscious level-- of it's many faults, but desperately tries to cover them with a show of bravado. Hopefully, as America matures and becomes less hostile, it will be accepted into the warm maternal bosom of the world, which it so desperately seeks.

>>3622935
If you work for what you have, you deserve to own it. Others should not claim it if they've done nothing to help you acquire such assets/money.

Once you die, your money belongs to charity.

So the logic behind this list basically seems to be "this book has an association with someone who killed a lot of people, so it must be banned."

Is that about right?

>Honorable Mention

>These books won votes from two or more judges:

>The Origin of the Species

What?

>>3622944

i agree, we should therefore end affirmative action forthwith.

>>3622955

youre removing their agency and erasing their identity by not letting them will their estate to where they will, you opressive cis pig.

>>3622955
It's amazing that people like this actually exist. Inheritance has been a part of human civilization since we clawed our way out of Africa.

Oh, wait, you have to be a "forward thinking progressive" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The destruction of civilization is a full-time job.

>>3622964
Trans* people would obviously be exempt.

>>3622967

cognitive dissonance, i chose you!

>>3622964
God I hate Tumblr assholes. To think someone argued with a professor over the made-up meaning of 'Cis'. Some people seriously need to be hanged.

>>3622955
are you saying people have no right to say what's done with their money and things they've worked for?

>>3622965
Stop using mommy and daddy's money to support yourself and get a real job.

>>3622965
Also, they did a study on how aggressive someone may be by the number of stickers they have on their car. That person must be horrible to be around.

>>3622979
Who did that survey? The American equivalent of The Daily Mail

>>3622980
*The Daily Mail?

>>3622979
Yes, liberal atheists are horrible to be around.

>>3622989
But let's be honest...

>>3622960
I want to believe that they voted it because it was used to justify eugenics and social Darwinism.

>>3622985
Yes, because all liberal atheists are identical, right? RIGHT?

Not right. You're a moron.

>>3622990
>because they're all identical, rite guz?

Well, if the banana fits...

>>3622980
Colorado State University researchers have recently concluded a study on driver behavior revealing something that may or may not be surprising to you: drivers who personalize their cars with bumper stickers, custom plates and other such markings are likely to be more aggressive and confrontational out on the road. It's all about marking your territory, say the CSU eggheads. When people use their rear bumper to, say, advertise who they voted for in the last three presidential elections (along with every associated platform issue), brag about how smart their precious kids are, or remind us about the highly unfortunate event that took place on October 27, 2004, it's really the adhesive-based equivalent of what that next-door-neighbor's dog does when he lifts his leg on your gardenias.

Those stickers make cars an extension of their drivers' home turf, which they will defend if they feel you're threatening it in any way. Conversely, people whose autos retain their stock appearance are more likely to show patience behind the wheel. So, the next time you're getting yelled at, honked at, or getting the finger from another driver, try to sneak a peek at the rear bumper as they drive off in a huff. Chances are you'll find some reading material there.

>>3622996
The most aggressive people I've seen are people who tend to be most political, no matter what side they take on any issue or party of their choosing.

>>3622989

we already practice eugenics on a daily basis, people select their partners based on whatever criteria they prefer, sperm banks catalogue the attributes of their donors, babies are screened conditions and hereditary diseases, ect.

its simply social conditioning at work, people precognitively associating certain words and concepts with 'bad' before reason and facts even enter the discussion, 'conspiracy' is another good example.

>>3622990
>typical angry, namecalling liberal atheist

>>3623007
Exactly. Which is why they're called radicals, and are widely regarded not to be indicative of that entire half of the political spectrum. Yet some people in this thread seem to fail to grasp that, seeing one picture of a retarded liberal and going "HA HA, LOOK HOW DUMB ALL LIBERALS, GUYS! HAHA, THIS IS THE FINAL NAIL IN THEIR BULLSHIT PROGRESSIVE COFFIN, THE FIGHT IS FINALLY OVER! :D CONSERVATIVES HAVE OFFICIALLY WON!"

>>3623010
that's a pretty distended definition of eugenics

>>3623010
Assortative mating is clearly an anti-progressive action. You're playing right into the hands of the evil conservatives!

Deny your base, anti-egalitarian instincts and have sex with as many ugly, weak, and stupid people as you can! We all have to do our part, comrade!

>>3623019

>>3623010
What I meant is how some people believe it is their right and duty to improve human race by preventing people with unwanted traits from reproducing or killing them.

The careful reader notes that the audience for this list and others like it is made of people who have not read the works on it and have no idea what is actually in them.

The brave anon is invited to examine, for his own edification and amusement, some of the other published works promoted on other parts of the website, e.g. http://www.regnery.com/imprint/regnery-kids/

>>3623022

>eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement of hereditary qualities of a race or breed

>>3623029
That's basically evolution, just applied to a particular race, believed by idiot conservatives to be 'genetically superior'.

>>3623028

i know what you mean, and im explaining how we already do it, we just dont 'say' it.

the point is that judgment is inherent to every action we take, you making that post instead of doing any other possible thing required an normative stance on your part, and so problems arise when considering ideologies that involve passing off the buck for thinking or responsibility (eg, free market will fix it, the central workers planning agency will fix it, ect).

>>3623030
lmao

>>3623038
the difference between eugenics and simple mate selection is that eugenics is an institutionalized system to deny people the ability to reproduce so as to cater to a semi-arbitrary ideal of superiority.

eugenics is a political philosophy, full stop. Its not related to letting people use their own judgement for mating and reproduction its specifically a philosophy that acts top down to control the gene pool of the human race.

>all these liberals hating their nationality

if you don't care what your ancestors did to improve your country so you could live in a nicer place than they did, why don't you go live somewhere where nobody fought to try make it a better place?

I'm sure the move wont harm you, cause, you know, you're not nationalistic

>>3623078
What's the difference?

>>3622478
>banning books
laughingsluts.jpg

>>3623086
>what's the difference
>is that eugenics is an institutionalized system to deny people the ability to reproduce so as to cater to a semi-arbitrary ideal of superiority.
Not even him, but you're a fucking idiot

>>3623085
>nationalism
nationalism didn't even exist until 1810. People didn't self-identify by state, government, or ruler for the vast majority of human history. most of us are perfectly content to honour our ancestors without assigning a national label to them that they never cared about.

>>3623099
>nationalism didn't even exist until 1810

tell that to my ancestors

>>3623099
It existed, but it wasn't a big political issue. The Italian War for Independence is the best example of this, along with German unification.

It's closely tied to particularism, which is a particularly (lel) relevant topic these days..

>>3622370
You're a fucking idiot

>>3622965
>Inheritance has been a part of human civilization since we clawed our way out of Africa.
>Inheritance
>insert 'Christianity', 'child labour', 'slavery', 'rape'

>4. The Kinsey Report

That's when i realized what kind of site it was

>>3622532
I think drugs should be decriminalized

>>3623113
Some drugs should be. Heroin shouldn't.

>>3623112
Same here dude. I can see the others because of lol political agenda but Kinsey? Fucking why?
>Hurrr sex is evul!

>>3623117
>You now realize that American conservatives are a bunch of terrified old men
Fucking Origin of the Species is in there, and that's just a science book.

>>3623099
You are very, very wrong.
>what is the history of irish nationalism
>what is the 80 years war
>what is the french revolution

>>3623121
>French revolution
>Anything to do with nationalism
I studied it, and I don't see what nationalism has to do with it. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong though.

>>3623117
Also that 95% refers to mastrubation, that is almost the most important revelation of that study and they don't even mention it.
They mad 'cuz they feel uncurfontable with that 1/4 of men having of homo experiences
I read it a long time ago, but i'm pretty sure he doesn't defended pedos at all.

>>3622874
Sister:
>His sister Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche acted as curator and editor of Nietzsche's manuscripts during his illness. She was married to a prominent German nationalist and antisemite, Bernhard Förster, and she reworked some of Nietzsche's unpublished writings to fit her husband's ideology, often in ways contrary to Nietzsche's opinions, which were strongly and explicitly opposed to antisemitism and nationalism

>>3623130
I studied it in my Sociology of Human Sexuality class. He doesn't defend any behavior at all (except for maybe expressing yourself sexually but that was done more form his lectures/personal talks).

>>3622692
Also:
>his rupture with Richard Wagner, expressed in The Case of Wagner and Nietzsche Contra Wagner (both written in 1888), had much to do with Wagner's endorsement of pan-Germanism and anti-Semitism

>>3622711
And expose themselves to danger?

>>3623099
>nationalism didn't even exist until 1810.

In what manner?

>>3622815
>implying england is progressive

>>3622894
Similar to Oskar Maria Graf:
>Graf's books were not destroyed during the Nazi book burning then taking place, rather were recommended reading. As a result, on May 12, 1933, he published in the Vienna Arbeiterzeitung ("Worker's Newspaper") his famous anti-Nazi appeal, Verbrennt mich! ("Burn me!")

>>3623146
>muslims get to use sharia law whenever they want
>constant surveillance everywhere
>high taxes to subsidize lazy poor people

Sounds like a progressive utopia to me, buddy.

>>3623030
Oh fuck.

>>3623161
>muslims get to use sharia law whenever they want
>constant surveillance everywhere
>high taxes to subsidize lazy poor people
i don't think you've ever been to England. I don't think you've even read a newspaper about England, or actually read a book about economics.

Muslims who try to impose Sharia law are arrested if they break the law, surveillance is no worse than it is in America, and the rich should be highly taxed in a period of recession.

>>3623085
non sequitur

>>3623078

i think the better question is, why would you not want to influence good reproductive decisions in a population?

>>3622835
If it wasn't for "gays and minorities" we'd be speaking German now. It wasn't such little englanders fighting in WWI and WWII. Fuck it, without Turing alone we might well have lost WWII.

>>3623174
And then he was driven to suicide because he was gay.

>>3623174
>>3623181
English homosexuality law was ridiculous at the time. It was a leftover from the 1800s.

Turing was prosecuted under the same act as Oscar Wilde.

>>3623161
>muslims get to use sharia law whenever they want
Just as long as it's compatible with british law. Same thing for jews, christians, atheists etc.
>constant surveillance everywhere
What's progressive about that?
>high taxes to subsidize lazy poor people
Yeah, whatever.

>>3623174
*just little Englanders.

>>3622867
Impressive collection of strawmen. Did you compile it yourself, or did your daddy help you?

>>3623174

i like turing, but the outcome of ww2 was inevitable when the us entered the war, there was just a huge disparity between the potential of the states compared to japan and germany, without sea access they were doomed to attrition, the best germany could have hoped for was to sue for peace early in the war when everything was going to shit for the britbongs, which they did infact, but churchil rebuffed him because he had friends with fdr and americas jewish lobby that promised him that they could bring the us out of isolationism.

>>3623174
>we
How old were you in the 40s?

>>3623164
Everything you need to know about our President.

>>3623164
I didn't know this stuff actually existed.

Jesus,the American right is weird sometimes.

>>3623167
>surveillance is no worse than it is in America

Britain has 20% of all the cctv cameras in the world, for less than 1% of the world's population.

>>3623204
It's a standard grammatical practice to use the pronoun "we" when discussing the history of the country of the speaker's birth. It doesn't mean anything.

>>3623214

everything is topsy turvy in america, even the word 'liberal' in political discussion means the exact opposite of classical liberal, anyone who advocates things like gun control or the like certainly isint championing personal libery.

>>3623222
That's what nationalists truly believe.

>>3623218
America has roughly 30 million CCTV cameras, which is about 1 for every 10 people.

The United Kingdom has roughly 1 for every 14 people.

Fuck off.

>>3623199
>implying those aren't all core issues for the left

I forgot the anti-vaccine movement, btw.

Religious nutjobs are pretty looney, but ultimately they do no harm. A few gay people are butthurt at not being able to marry, but frankly that is nothing in terms of the big picture.

How many children die every year because they're denied vaccination?

>We’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it’s connected to the vaccines. This person included.

I'll let you google that to find out who said it.

>>3623201
Churchill himself said it was the cracking of the enigma that won the war. A slight exaggeration, but it makes the point of how important gay people have been in Britain's history.

When I look back at the culture and history of my country, the people I'm proud to be associated with are dudes like T.E Lawrence, Turner and Shakespeare, all of whom were arguably flaming faggots. It doesn't count for much, but it is nice to come from a culture that sees these characters as some of its greatest heroes.

>>3622867
>>conservatives are holding progress back
That's pretty much what conservative means brah.

>>3623228
What the hell do you thin collective pronouns are even for?

>>3623239
And the strawmen just keep coming.

>How many children die every year because they're denied vaccination?
I'm sure you're going to tell us exactly how many.

Oh, look who's anti-vaccine:
>Some conservative U.S. Christian groups oppose mandatory vaccination for diseases typically spread via sexual contact, arguing that the possibility of disease deters risky sexual contact.

>>3623252
Not for talking about people in the past I've not been part of.

>>3623239
>>3623239
But the conservatives are the anti-vaccine ones, what are you talking about?

>>3623253
It's also the right wing tabloids that inevitably do the whole scaremongering "give your kids vaccines and they will get AIDS/Austism/anything at all" thing

>>3623257
Google it motherfucker.

Also of course conservatives aren't anti-vaccine are you fucking retarded? It's moronic hippies that think "chemicals" are evil.

>>3623258
Vaccines generally aren't "chemicals". They're usually a culture of weakened or similar but less virulent pathogens.

>>3623254

unless you think causality is a 'social constuct', it is reasonable to view things as contiguous wholes, wherein the actions and ideas affect and persist temporaly.

>>3623258
Of course conservatives are anti-vaccine, you fucking retard. One of the main reasons for opposing them is on religious grounds, which funnily enough is what conservatives do next.

>>3623266
But I wasn't part of what happened 50 or so years ago, therefore it doesn't make sense for me to say "we".

>>3623254
You know they can stretch over time, right? Language is crazy useful like that.

Look at this: "All 4chan posters are faggots". That includes not only you and me but people who posted on 4chan before either of us even knew it existed.

Here is another one "People from England measure time by bongs" after which I can go on to say "This is the only way we are able to tell what time it is. Ever since druids constructed the tower in ancient times we have practiced this way of timekeeping."

>>3623264

...which are present in the carrier liquid, which can have all sorts of stuff in it.

personally, i think alot of vaccines are suspect too, not in principle, but specifically because they are not subject to alot of regulation or oversight, similar to how gene modding food crops is a worthwhile venture, but its monopolisation by a single company is causing problems.

>>3623214

Really? A biography of a remarkable President -regardless if you like him or not- for kids?

The only weirdness I see here is yours for thinking that is weird.

>>3623271
Your second example doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't use "we" but "the english".

>>3623269

sure it does, you are an exponent of whats already happened.

youre giving antifas a bad name by being so myopic, not that they didint already have a bad name mind.

>>3623272
There's a big jump between that, and between saying that vaccines cause autism or are inherently bad, and should be banned.

What you're describing isn't a problem with vaccines, but a problem with legislation surrounding vaccines.

>>3623279
It's the other way round.

>antifa
What are you babbling about?

>>3623272
If anything's suspect like that, it's antibiotics. Vaccines are very straightforward, relying on the body's own immune system.

>similar to how gene modding food crops is a worthwhile venture
It's an academic venture, it's not a worthwhile venture. High cost for little gain.

>>3623278
It is stylistic. You might be more inclined to use "we" if, for example, you were presenting your nation's history and culture to a group of foreigners. Using "we"helps ground the idea that the group talked about is one that exists to this day and the speaker is apart of.

>>3623289
i.e. Nationalistic.

>>3623289
>and the speaker is apart of
Maybe that's the problem. I don't consider myself to be part of any country.

>>3623282

some existing vaccines DO influence autism spectrum symptoms, though.

i can just tell from your language that youre arguing from a preconception that resists challenges to those preconceptions, even when you grudgingly grant the premise in the same breath.

>>3623288
>If anything's suspect like that, it's antibiotics
How come?

>>3623293
Its only reasonable to assume you are. I mean, what is a country comprised of, if not in part its people? You may not want to be, but you almost certainly are.

>>3623297
That seems like a slightly weird connection to make, but if that's what you want to believe, then whatever.

If there's evidence for vaccines influencing autism, then feel free to whack it out. If it exists (which I imagine it does, considering that you're mentioning it) I'd be happy to give it a read, and change my perspective accordingly.

>>3623285

>It's the other way round.

are you perhaps retarded? special needs if you prefer? honest question.

>>3623300
But I don't identify as <insert nationality here>. Countries are an anachronism.

Didn't us too long to turn this thread into nothing but a discussion of semantics and who is mentally retarded.

>>3623304
What happened in the past was not of my doing. Therefore it does not make sense for me to say "we" when referring to past actions.

>>3623310
Isn't that what /lit/ is for?

>>3623312
Was meant for >>3623309

>>3623309
Seems to happen so very often these days. although the topic of the thread was a somewhat controversial topic in the first place, and likely to invite trolls and bickering.

>>3623307
Mallards don't identify as being a part of the genus anas, but they sure are. I'm not sure anachronism means what you think it means. If you don't want to be a citizen of the country you are legally a part of, there are ways for you to renounce your citizenship. Nothing is stopping you.

>>3623317
I'm having a nice time actually. I think we cooled things down.

>>3623298
They get pumped into food animals and into the environment, bacteria have shown a clear response to them with "super bugs", many commonly used antibiotics are non-discriminatory which is a problem for the approx 15% of you (dry weight) that is bacterial flaura, there seems to be a link to developing allergies.

>>3623297
There isn't at any link at all. The only research to ever suggest links was flawed. This is why it's heralded as a classic example of media scaremongering.

NO FUCKING PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION?!

>>3623321
Then perhaps it can be understood why I'm somewhat skeptical. The right seem to fucking love media scaremongering.

>>3623303

dont get passive agressive on me now, youre just making me feel smug about my own preconceptions about you.


per your question, i usually have a few things saved on txt files for quick access on common topics.

http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227?goback=.gde_2169172_member_188815624

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf

>>3623325
I wasn't being passive aggressive at all, Jesus. I'm giving it a read now, and if it's convincing then I'll change my mind.

>>3623321
>They get pumped into food animals and into the environment
That's more the abuse of them, though.
>bacteria have shown a clear response to them with "super bugs"
That's simply evolution: Random mutations cause some bacteria to be more resistant to some antibiotics, so they survive and multiply. Rinse, repeat.
>many commonly used antibiotics are non-discriminatory which is a problem for the approx 15% of you (dry weight) that is bacterial flaura
That indeed.

>>3623310

what happened in the past shaped who you are what whats around you, it would be a mistake to draw definite demarcations between it, which is the point.

>>3623310
Homo Sapiens have existed for about 250,000 years. We separated from homo erectus around this time in Africa and later migrated out northwards, spreading across the globe.

>>3623331
Then maybe I don't say "we" to demonstrate that I want nothing to do with that past. Also that past changes depending on where I'm currently living, reducing the past's influence on myself.

>>3623322
Hows it going /pol/?

>>3622720

Those feminists on the list are substantially different from Mill.

There's a reason why "The Subjection of Women" isn't Mill's book listed.

Actually the reason many conservatives don't like Mill, including myself, is because On Liberty is an extremely rationalistic book, one that offers a world-view based on radical, conceptual and abstract principles. "The Subjection of Women" is actually, from this perspective, a very conservative book. I bet most of the voters in this poll will gladly subscribe it.

>this entire article
also /pol/ pls go

>>3623335
In that case it makes more sense to use "we", as the species is common.

>>3623346
In the case of a nationality it makes sense to use "we", as the nationality is common.

See? See how retarded you sound?

>>3623267
>Of course conservatives are anti-vaccine, you fucking retard.One of the main reasons for opposing them is on religious grounds, which funnily enough is what conservatives do next.

Please name those "anti-vaccines" conservatives.

>>3623338
That is a dishonest (somewhat childish) move. Unless you want to put your money where your mouth is and renounce your citizenship you might as well accept you are in the collective pronoun for your country.

>>3623347
Not really, as I reject nationality.

>>3623356
You reject the fact that you were born in the same place as some people and are descended from them?

You're not sounding any less dumb.

>>3623353
>somewhat childish
>implying I care what an anon calls me
>your country
There's the problem: It's the country I live in, not "my" country.

>>3623350
>Some conservative U.S. Christian groups oppose mandatory vaccination for diseases typically spread via sexual contact, arguing that the possibility of disease deters risky sexual contact.

>>3623359
>implying I live in the same place I was born in

>>3623361
Way to avoid the argument in the post quoted. You realise that when someone puts a comment in brackets it is taken to be an aside, not central to the meaning of the sentence?

>>3623339
You don't consider protocols harmful to humanity and europe's jewish population? how is that /pol/?

>>3623350
Here you go: accination has been opposed on religious grounds ever since it was introduced, even when vaccination is not compulsory. Some Christian opponents argued, when vaccination was first becoming widespread, that if God had decreed that someone should die of smallpox, it would be a sin to thwart God's will via vaccination.[8] Religious opposition continues to the present day, on various grounds, raising ethical difficulties when the number of unvaccinated children threatens harm to the entire population.[81] Many governments allow parents to opt out of their children's otherwise-mandatory vaccinations for religious reasons; some parents falsely claim religious beliefs to get vaccination exemptions

Literally straight from wikipedia

Here's another quote:

"These comparisons emphasise that, regardless of how the medical establishment feels about anti-vaccinationists, it is important to understand that they have deeply held beliefs, often of a spiritual or philosophical nature,11 and these beliefs have remained remarkably constant over the better part of two centuries. The movement encompasses a wide range of individuals, from a few who express conspiracy theories, to educated, well informed consumers of health care, who often have a complex rationale for their beliefs, related to a “mixture of world views held about the environment, healing, holism . . . and a critical reading of the scientific and alternative literature.”

Cite some liberals now, if you want.

>>3623359
that'd be ethnicity

>>3623366
>>3623361
This is a really stupid argument. It is literally entirely founded on "I DON'T LIKE NATIONALISM BECAUSE IT DOESN'T APPLY TO ME, SO NOBODY ELSE SHOULD AND IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE."

please just stop

>>3623377
>literally
and you have the audacity to think you're intelligent enough for debate

>>3622370
Whoa, the Bible wasn't written until the 1800s?!

>>3623377
Nationalism isn't even the issue here. It's just one of grammar. The anon you quoted seems to think his or her own sensibilities have the power to change how collective pronouns work. It's quite funny.

>>3623389
Because I used caps. Caps generally tends to give off the impression of anger.

Can we make this Most Harmful Books since 1500?

I'd like to nominate Leviathan.

>>3623377
>SO NOBODY ELSE SHOULD
Where did I claim that? And why do you sound so buttmad?

>>3623386
It's still being written: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Bible_Project#Conservative_Bible_Project

>>3623390
>implying "we" doesn't carry a nationalist connotation
>implying words have fixed meanings and can't be changed

>>3623396

>>3623396
They can be changed, but that changed can't be forced.

>glove doesn't mean glove any more because I feel it has connotations with baseball. It now means microwave, and I shall use it as such from now on until everyone else comes around.
See how retarded that sounds? Change in meaning has to come fluidly.

>>3623403
he seems to have trouble breathing

>>3623407
>but that changed can't be forced.
Who's talking about force? Are you a conservative by any chance? They seem to be obsessed with force.

>>3623413
God no, i'm incredibly progressive. Since when has the use of particular words, in entirely different contexts, been indicative of an entire political perspective?

>>3623394
Really? What harm did Leviathan ever do?

>>3623407
I don't think me not using "we" when talking about the past actions of the people of the country I'm currently living in will make communication any more difficult -- contrary to your strawman.

>>3623420
>The Young Earth creationist opinion is that Leviathan and Behemoth are names given to dinosaurs which existed in Biblical times.

>>3623420
Social contract theory is based on assumptions about humanity that are unfounded at the least. Hobbes openly admitted that he based it on what he thought he would do if there were no law to stop him. At most this means that Hobbes would have been dangerous without authorities keeping him in line, and it's probable that he made claims about himself which he thought would make his case stronger.

>>3623420
Undermined the logic of the monarchy.

The bastard.

>>3623396
That is the first non retarded post in your entire argument so far. Well done. I still think you are wrong, and that "we" is perfectly acceptable when talking about the country you are a part of. I am militantly anti-nationalist when it comes to anything but an idea of a shared culture. I think the two are distinguishable, contra the whole "nationalist" movement, which in my opinion was one of the worst things to ever happen in the history of humanity. It's not going to stop me being glad I come from the same culture as King Arthur, Shakespeare and so on.

>>3623428
>Being this retarded.

No..I just don't..

>>3623430
Uh, that was the exact express opposite intention of Leviathan. It's a work written in RESPONSE to those who try and undermine the monarchy's right to rule. Hobbes argued that not-only is it God-given but an a priori necessity that everyone would be foolish to argue against.

You guys'll just go on and on and fucking on, won't you

>>3623429
Maybe he would've gone on a rampage if he hadn't written Leviathan. So far it only looks like him writing it was a good thing.

>>3623439
Don't tell me you've never seen the documentary "The Flintstones".

>>3623444
You know it.

>>3623446
I was more referring to someone on /lit/ not recognising what the book called Leviathan is.

>>3623437
>I still think you are wrong, and that "we" is perfectly acceptable when talking about the country you are a part of
That's the nice thing about language: It's inherently anarchistic, so we can both keep our respective ways of talking about the past.

>5/31/2005

Fuck I thought some people were going to try to argue with me about Hobbes for a second there and my wasted years studying philosophy might have been justified.

>Books
>Harmful
People actually believe this.

>>3623419
He's saying that the change of "we" to encompass nationalism wasn't a forced change you dolt

>>3623394

throw malthus on that pile.

theres a big difference between a bad idea, and a dangerous one. dangerous ideas are dangerous specifically BECAUSE they contain some insight or revealed truth, to prevent whole discount. and given the right (or wrong, depending on your perspective) audience, it can either cause people to precognitavely accept everything else enumerated in the idea, or it subverts some existing useful convention, with the result in either case being the acceptance of something that is not the case by the subject, in which case one can then use that train of reasoning to prove any given statement as true, quite literally intellectual poison.

>>3623492
books contain ideas, and ideas are the most dangerous thing to any society.

>>3623441
What Hobbes undermined was the idea of Divine Right. Did you read him?

>>3623132
it was also one of his friends.
Peter Gast would "correct" Nietzsche's writings even after the philosopher's breakdown and did so without his approval

>>3623116
why the fuck not

>>3623373
not that I would call him and his ilk liberal

>>3623517
Hobbes never argued against the Divine Right of Kings. He merely added new weight to the arguments supporting absolutism. He is the most important pro-monarchy writer in all English philosophy.

You might be getting him confused with Locke.

>>3623543
He is getting him confused with Locke for sure.

>>3623373
I did, the president of the united states.

>>3623181
>>3623185

>"It is tragic that Alan Turing was convicted of an offence which now seems both cruel and absurd, particularly... given his outstanding contribution to the war effort. However, the law at the time required a prosecution and, as such, long-standing policy has been to accept that such convictions took place and, rather than trying to alter the historical context and to put right what cannot be put right, ensure instead that we never again return to those times."

>>3623240
>but it makes the point of how important gay people have been in Britain's history.

Yes - because it was for the fact that he was gay that he had such a brilliant mind wasn't it!

>>3623288
>It's an academic venture, it's not a worthwhile venture.

>GM food
>not a worthwhile venture

Oh the ignorance...

>>3623517
You mean Locke right? In Hobbes Leviathan, half the book is spent defending Christian Kings, while the first half is its intro by establishing the need for absolute monarchies.

>>3623297
>some existing vaccines DO influence autism spectrum symptoms, though.

Citation.

>>3623761
How much money has gone into GM?

How much money has been saved?

What time frame of return are we talking as of this minute?

>>3623288

>an academic venture

This explains perfectly why virtually all the cotton and corn grown in the USA are GM. Glyphosate-resistant crops are an academic venture in the same way that washing your hands before you begin surgery is an academic venture.

>>3623783

>A comprehensive 2012 study by PG Economics, a UK company, concluded that GM crops increased farm incomes worldwide by $14 billion in 2010, with over half this total going to farmers in developing countries.

>>3623783
Adoption rates of GM crops in the developed world are ~80-90% depending on the crop. They wouldn't be used if they didn't provide a benefit.

>>3623757
That's the opposite of what I said.