/lit/ - Literature

>fantasy

Nigga can't write for shit.

>what is it that you dislike about the series?
It's popular, mainly. And it has a decent, entertaining storyline instead of being exclusively prose based. Also, the TV series means that retards are talking about it, so I can't feel superior for reading some obscure book that nobody else has heard of.

>>3619394
>all deez projections

>>3619389
>>3619393
These

>>3619389
So the majority of /lit/ don't like the fantasy genre? why?

>>3619398
How was that a projection? Do you even know what 'projecting' means?

>>3619389
>thinking we dislike fantasy

Shit nigga, what are you doin?
Honestly a lot of people on /lit/ are those kind of pseudo intellectuals who believe they are better than everyone if their favorite author is someone you've never heard of. GoT isn't groundbreaking or the best series, it is a political drama set in a low fantasy world. Honestly the first three books were pretty good and entertaining, the next ones went downhill from there. People in /lit/ hate it because it is popular.

I don't know why most even care.

fluff

>>3619407
>projection involves imagining or projecting faults onto others

what you're doing is the definition of projecting. you dislike being called a pleb so you imagine that the people who are devaluing a series of books you like are doing so facestiously, when in truth the books are just fucking shit and our dislike for them has nothing to do with popularity.

i bet you think "hispters" exist

>>3619411
modern fantasy is pretty damn shitty, either left wing propaganda or some sort of grimdark garbage.

>>3619419
facetiously*

>>3619411
I don't mean to speak on behalf of /lit/ but in my couple of years here, yes, I have noticed an overwhelming disdain for fantasy and science-fiction

>>3619429
Most people on here hate it because there are not a whole lot of "classics" that fall into those categories. If it isn't a classic, /lit/ goes full retard and hates it. This place is full of people who try to patrician their way to intellectualism. I remember someone on here attempting to tell me Infinite Jest was children's literature.

>>3619421
You obviously aren't looking hard enough. There is good fantasy out there.

Personally, I have nothing against it, I like the characters, and as was earlier stated, the first three books are pretty good. It's one of those things retards latch to and act like it's the best shit since sliced bread, thus making all other fans of the series look bad, which in turn leads to the series being maligned by those who want to keep the shitty fanbase away from their community.

>>3619438
name some good contemporary fantasy then

>>3619419
>what you're doing is the definition of projecting.
Unfortunately not. Try reading a definition of 'projection'.

>you dislike being called a pleb
I have no real concern for your /mu/ insults.

>so you imagine that the people who are devaluing a series of books you like are doing so facestiously
Try looking for a definition of facetious too. Pro tip: save words like that for when you understand them.

>when in truth the books are just fucking shit
Can you provide a critique of his writing? Things like pronoun play, physical devices as metaphors for plot reinforcement, free indirect style, themes... You know, basic stuff. Also, an analysis of the particular 'shit/good' dichotomy you're using. It needs to be external to a subjective interpretation.

>and our dislike for them has nothing to do with popularity.
Maybe not, but I dislike them being popular. Especially with the fan base they have accumulated.

>i bet you think "hispters" exist
Umm, okay.

I like them. them My brother is crazy for the series, and I got around to watching season one late last year, so I borrowed the books from him and blasted through them in a couple of months. They're very entertaining, and just because he doesn't write with any grace doesn't mean the books are bad I think. I have seen people on /tv/ call his writing detailed and complex though, which is just not true.
In terms of criticising the story, I think the religion and magic aspect of it is retarded. It seems very ambiguous as to whether or not any gods exist and to what degree magic is possible.

>>3619438
>There is good fantasy out there.

>>3619455
I think the ambiguity is the point, though.

>>3619448
I quite like the works of Joe Abercrombie, though it's edgy as fuck.

allowing pulpy fantasy to be discussed on their board would compromise their carefully constructed self-image as a group of budding intellectuals.

>>3619452
Fortunately I'm not a descriptivist piece of shit so things like "pronoun play, physical devices as metaphors for plot reinforcement, free indirect style, themes" are meaningless to me

>>3619448
I enjoyed the Jackelian Series, The Kingslayer Chronicles, Gormenghast, The Book of the New Sun, The Worm Ouroboros, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, His Dark Materials, Discworld, The Once and Future King, and Lyonesse just to name a few.

>>3619452
He just linked the definition of projection in the post you responded to. Can you read?

>>3619469
Ha ha, what a cop-out.

>>3619461
Yes, i've read his stuff, he falls under grimdark fantasy

appears he released a new book last year, maybe i'll dl it.

>>3619469
So why do you believe his books are shit then? What parts of them do you not like, be specific.

>>3619470
several of those are not contemporary

>>3619475
Because he heard it from some equally ill-informed teen on /lit/.

>>3619469
>the books are just fucking shit
>I'm not a descriptivist piece of shit
Okay, kid. I can dig that. How did you arrive at your in depth analysis of 'shit'.

>>3619476
My bad, most of them are though, so focus on those.

>>3619474
You mean Red Country? That's the one I haven't read yet. Apparently it's western inspired, though. I really liked the First Law trilogy, especially the last book. The Heroes was kind of eh, to be honest, and Best Served Cold is fucking great. They take place in the same world, and are chronological, but you don't necessarily have to have read The First Law in order to read Best Served Cold, though there are several recurring characters, and past events are referred to.

>>3619470
Have you read the Lies of Locke Lamora? A bro has been trying to get me to read that for ages, so I've been considering picking it up.

>>3619480
Unfortunately no I have not, but I have heard it's pretty good. I would recommend giving it a look.

>>3619477
I realize, but I want to see him struggle to find reasoning.

>>3619469
Behold: the face of /lit/.

lol

>>3619452
I dislike the fact that Martin uses grimdark thematic devices to cover up a glaringly obvious lack of skill in his writing style. I like sex and violence when it serves to move the plot or characterization along. There’s nothing wrong with gratuitous sex even when it doesn't do those things , provided if it’s well written and titillating. The sex in Martin’s works isn’t titillating.

But that's just me.

>>3619488
What sex? Did you only watch the TV series or something? My memory may be betraying me here, but I don't really recall any sex scenes in the series.

>>3619488
It seems like you only watched the show, the sex is few and far between in the books. Come on, you can do better than this. Please try to not let your retard show.

I actually like some books in the fantasy genre.

ASOIAF is just not that well written, tbh.

That's the only reason I don't like the series.

>>3619499
Can you not find something that isn't very well written entertaining, if not for the character interactions and scenario alone?

>>3619473
>>3619485
brillaitn counter-arguments, faggots

>>3619475
I think they're shit because I think they're shit, and for no other reason. Move along if you can't wrap your head around that.

>>3619478
see above, fuckstick


The fact that you retards think framing an argument for something being shit with "literary analysis" has any affect on the merit of that opinion shows how little you know about both literature and linguistics

Pros:
- wit
- pseudo-archaic vocabulary which helps immersion
- intricate foreshadowing and symbolism
- readability and lucidity

Cons:
- somewhat trite figurative language
- occasionally clumsy syntax
- over-reliance on cheap cliffhangers
- crude, awful sex scenes

>>3619479
They're shit too.

(in mah humble opinion)

>>3619495
Is this a troll or something?

>>3619495
>but I don't really recall any sex scenes in the series.
I really like the series, but his sex scenes - which were fairly frequent - were cringe-worthy:

“I’d sooner fuck you.” One quick slash unlaced her jerkin. Asha reached for her axe, but Qarl dropped his knife and caught her wrist, twisting back her arm until the weapon fell from her fingers. He pushed her back onto Glover’s bed, kissed her hand, and tore off her tunic to let her breasts spill out. When she tried to knee him in the groin, he twisted away and forced her legs apart with his knees. “I’ll have you now.”

“Do it,” she spat, “and I’ll kill you in her sleep.”

She was sopping wet when he entered her. “Damn you,” she said. “Damn you damn you damn you.” He sucked her nipples till she cried out half in pain and half in pleasure. Her cunt became the world. Only his hands mattered, only his mouth, only his arms around her, his cock inside her. He fucked her till she screamed, and then again until she wept, before he finally spent his seed inside her womb."

>>3619502

Not really.

If something's poorly written, I read it the way you would listen to some yokel or somebody with downs and try to decipher what they're saying.

Trying to interpret what's happening gets in the way of the entertainment and events in the plot, at least for me.

>>3619509
You're allowed to not like something, you are however not allowed to disregard it as shit. There is a difference. The quality of something and your opinion of it are completely separate. If you can not come up with an objective reason as to why it is low quality then there is no helping you.

>>3619517
>She was sopping wet
>Her cunt became the world.
>his cock inside her.
>He fucked her till she screamed
>he finally spent his seed inside her womb.

>>3619517
Ah, okay I remember now. Yeah, that's terrible. I don't really like lewd things in either what I read or watch, so that's probably why I forgot about it.

>>3619516
Having a bad memory is trolling now?

>>3619495
>>3619498
3/10 ruse, made me briefly consider that I was remembering the series incorrectly before I came to the conclusion that you're both fucking retarded

>>3619517
Yes, they are rather bad, but at least they are as predominant as most people make them out to be.

>>3619527
You should probably get yourself checked for a tumor or something if you couldn't remember the sex in ASOFAI

>>3619385
>>3619538
>ASOFAI

>>3619538
I already said I don't like lewd things. I mostly skimmed over it to the part where the actual story started again.

>>3619488
Jon's sexual relationship with Ygritte is crucial to his character development and his sympathy for the wildlings. Cersei's sexual relationships are the catalyst for most of the major plot points. Tyrion's sexual relationship with Shae influences many of his decisions as Hand. Did you even think about this before posting?

>>3619509
>I think they're shit because I think they're shit, and for no other reason.

That's okay. I think all classical music, blues, jazz, rock, and anything 'electronic' is shit. I also think elephants, medicine, airplanes, Ghandi, bungalows, and Greek sculptures are shit.

>>3619543

>ASOFAI

>>3619523
>If you can not come up with an objective reason as to why it is low quality then there is no helping you.
>objective reason
>objective

What is going on with /lit/ today? Am I being trolled or has everyone gone fucking insane?

>>3619550
No one cares

>>3619556
It has been exceptionally stupid today.

>>3619556

I think everyone's just insane.
Or stupid.

>>3619544
my fucking sides

>>3619556
No, I am being serious. Come up with reasoning why his plotting is shit, why his prose is shit, or why his characters are shit. "It is shit because I think it is shit." is not and never will be an acceptable argument. You are allowed not to like it, but not dismiss it as low quality out of hand.

"Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta.

Her cunt was usually sopping wet in the mornings. I fucked her till she screamed in slacks. I sucked her nipples at school. But in my arms she was always Lolita.

Did she have a precursor? She did, indeed she did. In point of fact, there might have been no Lolita at all had I not loved, one summer, a certain initial girl-child, who also had a sopping wet cunt. In a princedom by the sea. Oh when? About as many years before Lolita was born as my age was that summer. You can always count on a murderer for a fancy prose style.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, exhibit number one is what the seraphs, the misinformed, simple, noble-winged seraphs, envied. Look at this tangle of thorns."

-GRRNabokov

>>3619559
I care. And I expect he does too. You even cared enough to comment.

>>3619567
If you want an 'objective' assessment, you first have to agree on rigid criteria that you regard to be good writing.

You can have your personal objective spectrum, ranging from 'good to shit' if you want, but first you have to agree on specific qualities to use in your spectrum.

>>3619588
I'd like to hear _your_ criteria and where ASOIAF fails to meet them. In more depth than "durr it's shit".

>>3619567
see the bottom part of
>>3619509

and read much, much more.

also, I'm very interested to know where you're getting this idea about what people are and are not allowed to do in literary criticism. You realise, of course, that an argument based on arbitrarily derived parameters of criticism has no less merit than an argument that simply states something as shit, other than to people who who place arbitrary value on those parameters. People like you are why literary academia is a fucking joke.

>>3619573
absolutely god awful

how are there people defending this shit?

>>3619588
>>3619592
Yes, and so that means that my belief that it is good simply based on my preferences is completely valid, and so are the ones of all those who like ASoIaF. Personal taste is what is important and the entire thing is subjective anyway. Thank you.

>>3619394
/thread

>>3619601
Sure, it's completely valid, but I'm still going to think you're a fucking retard for liking it, as will anyone who actually reads literature and not fantasy.

>>3619607
And why is your opinion on that valid, more so than those who read ASoIaF?

>>3619603
The thread did not end after that post, and I would be very disappointed if anyone actually held that viewpoint seriously

>they can't possibly not like something I like! they must be doing it because it is popular! those dirty hipsters

ahueheuheuheuhe fuck off

>>3619610
It's not. Can you please just fucking read what you're responding to before you post. My god.

>>3619419
You're a fucking idiot. Stop using terms you don't understand.

>>3619618
It just appears you're making large generalizations " as will anyone who actually reads literature and not fantasy" and what not. Not liking something is perfectly fine, as I have stated. Saying someone else is a retard for liking it is frankly silly.

>>3619626
>saying someone else is a retard for liking it is frankly silly

Yeah, this is just another retarded opinion though, very similar, in fact, to that other retarded one you've been harping on about all thread. You know, that fantasy is literature and all that.

>>3619622
Brilliant argument. Kindly fuck off.

>>3619593
For me, my criteria is subjective -- I don't try and set up objective standards, I just hold the work to everything else I have read and place it somewhere in a spectrum for specific things. So, to me, his writing is pretty bad. I have read worse, but it's bad. He doesn't have a good grasp of structure, tending to focus mainly on single clauses, and two clauses joined by a conjunction. He has no stylistic flair, and neglects a wide range of prose styling techniques in favour of plot. As someone else said, 'free indirect style' - he never used this once. In terms of writing ability, even Palahniuk has a better grasp of how to play with syntax.

As bad as his writing is, his ability to form plot is decent. He has fantastic exposition and foreshadowing, believable character flaws, a very well structured fantasy world. He has some great ideas in his head, but presents them in a way that's stylistically bland. He doesn't know quite how to 'write' his complex ideas, and bloats them with badly written scenes that could have been better structured, better written, and read for writing as well as plot.

This whole thread is a perfect example of why literature discussion, or discussion about anything subjective, or anything at all, for that matter, should never take place.

Epistemelogical nihilism really fucked our shit right up.

>>3619649
I'm not trying to argue about anything you dumb shit. I'm just telling you that you're a fucking idiot, and if you're going to say someone is projecting then fucking learn what it means first.

>>3619511

This has been the only post of an merit whatsoever in this thread so far. Keep it classy, /lit/

>>3619672
>I'm not trying to argue about anything you dumb shit

Yeah no shit, fuckstick. Now fuck off.

>>3619675
This post has no merit

>>3619672
>being descriptivist scum
>the year of our lord 117+1896

le shigs

>>3619675
So is >>3619656

>>3619385

Because I'm that guy...

He touches on the subject of arms. The way he describes the use of such, the logic behind the forms, and beyond this military procedure is... frightening.

Food. Food, food, food! Awkward and less-than-tactfully handled sexuality. Dionysus would cringe. Food! Although, it could be worse. At least no one tugs on her braid every other sentence.

Sundry linguistic faux-medievalisms as an apology for the utter lack of prose. I won't go so far as some here. He occasionally does display some beauty of form when it is quite obvious that he isn't trying to force-feed you semi-historical illusion.

All that said, he has his moments as a story-teller. Taken for what it is - escapist literature targeting a genre-loyal audience - it is less objectionable by far than some particular examples I could name. It occasionally made me smile, and that's enough for what time I do invest in it. Yes, I'm pleb shit; get on my level, come at me, etc.

>>3619679
lold

>>3619679
And now, we descend into a spiral of name calling. Thank you all, my work here is done, another ASoIaF thread ruined again.

Keep classy /lit/. I just want to let you know, of all the boards of 4chan you are by far the most arrogant (more than tg), bitter (worse than v), and easiest to troll (worse than x).

Rot you scum.

>>3619688
Descriptivism is the opposite of prescriptivism, retard.

>>3619698
hahahahaha mad as fuck

run along back to >>>/b/ now

>>3619715
Yeah, what's your point you fucking dumbass faggot

>>3619693
Very well-written post, anon.

>>3619721
I am not mad, this is what I wanted. I pushed the thread in this direction. And you continue to give me what I want, thank you.

>>3619734
The thread is not limited to one discussion, and as you can clearly see, provided you're not braindead (admittedly this is unclear), the original discussion continues.

>>>/b/

those things don't gel at all. the periods of my life seem to pop into existence without consideration for the other parts of me. they just arrive and settle in, and only sometimes when i look back do i realise the gulf between the present moment and the past.

>>3619743
Yes, keep directing me to /b/. How many of the arguments in this thread aren't name calling?

>>3619726
Is another good example.

>>3619726
You're mixing them. Your own disregard for correct usage actually makes you 'descriptivist scum'.

These "highbrow readers" seem very immature -- even more so than the "fantasy plebs". Strange how that works, isn't it?

>>3619755
>being prescriptivist scum
>missing the point
>being dumb as fuck

>>>/g/

>>3619764
Why can't people like both?

>>3619768
Wait, why did you direct him to /g/. I'm honestly confused how that board is relevant.

>>3619764
Take your arbitrary value judgements elsewhere, prole

here there be nihilists

>Highbrows going around yelling how the books are shit and that those who enjoy them are retards and/or faggots.

>fantasy plebs attempting to argue logically why GMM isn't that bad and that this is all a matter of clashing opinions.

I see what you mean.

>>3619764
>measures maturity by level petit-bourgeois manners

>>3619775
People there are fat and this guy is clearly fat as fuck

>>3619782
I...what? We're supposed to be the intellectual board dammit! We're pushing towards the retard event horizon here, there is no going back once we cross it.

>>3619786
>Because calling someone a raging faggot and refusing to explain your reasoning as to why something bad is super mature.

There is no hope left, this board really is that bad.

>>3619787
why do place value on "intelligence"? how do you measure "intelligence"?

you don't know what you're talking about, do you?

>>3619790
So leave. I can assure you you won't be missed.

>>3619791
You can measure one's intelligence by their ability to articulate an argument (which is what we are doing at the moment) or perform some other task of difficulty. What the post I responded to did was clearly not that.

The reason one places value of intelligence is because that is what advances our damn society!

>>3619798
>Judging a fish by it's ability to climb a tree

>>3619794
What is worse is that most of the board won't even acknowledge how bad it has become and strive to fix it. Why let yourself rot when there are such better alternatives.

When did this place become filled with 14 year olds?

>>3619806
>Judging a fish by it's ability to climb a tree
So you're saying, that on a literary board, I should not judge someone on their ability to write an argument? Then what is the swimming event I judge the fish on here?

>>3619809
Because it's fucking 4chan and not a nation

>>3619814
>making judgements at all

what a fucking faggot

>>3619815
Please return to /b/.

>>3619818
I see what you did there.

>>3619809
You do realize that's pretty much every board, right? I haven't really been here for too long, but the same problem is on /a/, and it's what killed /v/.

>>3619823
Not some of them, /tg/ seems to be actively striving to make themselves better. Getting rid of off topic stuff, supporting their OC, and trying to make the /tg/ gets shit done mentality a reality.

Some other boards are taking this route as well. Why not try and be like them?

>>3619815
No, but it is an online community you are a part of.

>>3619825
>>>/b/

>>3619831
I do try, but /a/ has this terrible complex where they blame any and all shitposting on /v/ or this near mythical "IRC group." /v/ is long past any hope of redemption, so I'm just riding out spring break on the slower boards.

>>3619831
>No, but it is an online community you are a part of.

And I am meant to assign arbitrary significance to that becaaaaaauuuuseee?

Did you ever contemplate the notion that what you value in a board will have inherent differences compared with what someone else values in a board?

>>3619846
Then what do you value in this board? All we have in large amounts is arrogance and bitterness. I would assume others would like this board to be a place where actual discussion could take place and people were not immediately scorned upon entering.

>>3619861
>All we have in large amounts is arrogance and bitterness.

yeah, and it is entertaining, which is what most people that come to 4chan are looking for. If you want actual literature discussion (although, speaking from personal experience, it is equally as shit), go study it at uni

>>3619917
/lit/ is better than actual literature students often. /lit/ at least has the potential to be funny.

>>3619940
this is true

>>3619954
Yes, we have the potential. I would say we have higher high points and lower low points than most discussions. Sure we do well, but when we are shit we are fucking terrible.

>>3619646
You don't even know the definition of literature. Moron.

I love it when some pseudo-intellectual vocal minority tries to enforce its little uppity (and completely deluded) vision of what is literature and what /lit/ should be. Many tier charts suggest that /lit/ should be a very close circle of "patricians" (concept stolen from /mu/) collectively circle-jerking about Ulysses, Finnegans Wake and Infinite Jest. In reality, no one has ever read FW, maybe three people have read Ulysses and IJ is mainly used for trolling purposes. It's also funny to watch how /lit/ used to love ASOIAF back in the days and then started hating it with all its guts because it was adapted in a "popular" (!) TV show. Those who remember the shitfest that was early /lit/ (the same shitfest that made mods create an artificial rule 3 about Ayn Rand) can't and won't ever take /lit/ seriously.

>>3619389
people like you are almost as bad as those /tv/ users who look at a great film or director and call them shit or pleb because they aren't obscure or artsy enough. A movie can't be good unless there is no narrative, apparently.

That being said, GRRM just gets flack because he's too popular. I enjoyed reading ASOIAF (well, not the 4th one... holy crap). It wasn't amazing, but still a good read. It's no different than Drive, TDKR or Shame - pretty great films that are constantly assaulted with shouts of "autism," "worst movie of the year" or "first world problems." Honestly it's like people just see a small problem with something and base a film or novel's criticism around that.

I won't defend GRRM or these films as worthy of the hype they get, but I will address the fact that they are only attacked so hard because of how popular they are.

Fuck you.

Handling of women
Handling of different races,
Daenary's lack of character development for a large amount of her active time.
Filler including people being caught only to escape and escaping only to get caught, and inefficient use of characters.

That, plus his prose, are the major problems. It's obvious that he had a general outline, but he's not pacing what he had well.

Despite all that, /lit doesn't mind ASOIAF, for the most part, though there are several here who loathe it with a passion. Most just place it as a guilty pleasure. It was even up on the recommendations, though I haven't checked through the sticky since it changed recently.

That's it basically, he's not able to juggle well all the balls he's thrown in the air, but what he's written is a good time, and not nearly as bad as some things we could name cough*Sword of Truth*cough

Daily ASOIAF troll thread.

Fuck you /lit/.

It's a good series. I just stopped reading after starting the fourth book and realizing that the series will never be finished. It's so disappointing to get immersed into something like that.

ASOIAF taught me to read only complete series. Because of it, I read Stephen King's The Dark Tower-series, which I found excellent. It's just so much satisfying to invest time on characters and story that actually have a closure.

>>3620120
deadwood ;__________________;

>>3619517
Is this seriously straight out of GRRM novels?

Jesus Christ dude...

>>3619448
shadows of the apt

>>3619698
U mad brah?

>>3620298
I'd like to see what /lit/ would prefer when describing a rape.

>>3619517
>his face as he wrote that

>>3619415
Second.

>>3620518
This is brilliant

>>3619693
Oh /lit/, you do make me shake my head.

>He touches on the subject of arms. The way he describes the use of such, the logic behind the forms, and beyond this military procedure is... frightening.
Why exactly?

>Food. Food, food, food!
Why is this a bad thing? Why does this board complain about the detailed descriptions of banquets and clothing? Am I the only one who loves how it contributes to the immersion of the world, how it uses the mundane to build the physicality of that world and strengthen your mental image?

>Awkward and less-than-tactfully handled sexuality
Half the time it's mean to be awkward. That should be obvious even to the very unperceptive reader. There is hardly any physical expression of love or lust in those books that isn't motive driven or the expression of dominance over someone. It's a reflection of the wider society. The lack of tact reinforces this. Although Martin being able to write better wouldn't hurt though.

>Sundry linguistic faux-medievalisms as an apology for the utter lack of prose.
Firstly you don't know what prose is. A book can't lack prose; it can have bad prose, which Asoiaf does half of the time. Secondly you're revealing your insistence of prose at the expense of every other tool literature has at its disposal. It's an aweful, narrow-minded ideology. Those faux-medievalisms (I actually like that) are the least significant manifestations of Martin's historic inspiration. He does 'semi-historical illusion' in the best sense.

>I won't go so far as some here.
Believe me, you got pretty close.

>Taken for what it is - escapist literature targeting a genre-loyal audience
All literature is escapist by you reasoning.

>>3620742
awful*

>>3620742
Why did you sage a relevant post?

>>3619394
Nigger, you went full hipster.

>>3620781
I'm harbouring the dark suspicion that he was trolling.

>>3620826
Isn't he being the opposite of hipster?

>>3621469
the opposite of hipster is hipster

>>3621502
what must one do to not be a hipster? or is trying not be hipster completely hipster?

>>3621521
Everyone is a hipster anon. You, me, your grandmother; everyone is one of them!

>>3621536
>Your motorized cart is red? What kind of pleb are you?

>>3621622
fail pleb by the look of it
>red being in style

>>3619457

He's right.
There is good fantasy out there.

You aren't looking hard enough.

>>3621690
> falling for a troll post that stupid

Book of the New Sun is the Ulysses of the science fiction genre.

>>3621749
wo wo wo
let's all just relax and take a deep breath
no need to start all that

>>3621752
What?

>>3621745

>thinks some anon don't sincerely hold this belief on /lit/

cmon now m8

>>3620742

Sorry, took me a while to get back to this.

Firstly, his description of the weightiness of harness. It is portrayed as tiring to fight and move about in, which is patently wrong. The most offensive example, of course, being Bronn's duel with some such knight over the dwarf's freedom. Secondly, the Dothraki are a classic iteration of the magic-mongol bow myth, which has as much basis in reality as a Nazi reading of Imperial German history.

Describing a repast is one thing. Detailing sights and smells is natural. Martin, however, takes this several leaps and a bound too far - In my opinion, of course, which is the only one I can speak for. As for sexuality, it is not the situational but the descriptive method that I find awkward. I suppose that is more of a criticism of his written style itself.

I thought it obvious that by "utter lack of prose" I was intimating an absence of good structure. If you wish to hold me to such precision, however, I will not contest the point. I beg pardon. That said, I find the inability of medieval-fantasy authorship to distance itself in any sense from such medievalisms and historical grasping to be confining and proscriptive. Martin proscribes the mood for the lonely purpose of later modernist contrast. In my humble estimation, that goes something farther than unsubtle and into heavy handed.

Literature is a window. Through the mind of an author we are able to explore philosophy, history, or even something so insular as the beauteous use of language. Even in (good) fiction, there are relevant illustrations of the aforementioned and other important concepts. What can we learn about Early-Modern England from Shakespeare? What of English as a language; playing with words and casting allusions? The truth is, any activity can be used as an escape; but some things are of no use outside of that.

>>3622670
>I will not contest the point. I beg pardon
don't beg pardon against semantics

First time ever on /lit/

Is there any book out there you enjoied reading?
For me it seems that everyone in this bord about books is mentaly unable to have fun reading the said.

>>3622715
Juliette by Marquis de Sade.

>>3622715
I think all the people who have been asked about the Book of the New Sun said that it was a pretty damn good book. And that Gene Wolfe was a pretty damn good writer.

The books feel extremely bloated to me, like they're in need of a lot of editing. Martin seems to spend his time deliberately forcing his characters down the longest possible route to apparently achieve very little. Why was it necessary to send Tyrion through the entire Vale sequence? All we learn is that Lysa is crazy and doesn't like Lannisters (already knew this) and that Bronn is now Tyrion's sellsword.

Arya trots around the woods for a hundred hours in circles only to miss returning to Catelyn (the goal of her little journey that we're invested in) by a few minutes. This kind of near-miss crap happens so often I just stopped believing in them. He goes into detail about what everybody is wearing like a shopping list, but all the time he's doing this he's not giving information on the atmosphere or mood.I dislike the chapter structuring too. The minute something interesting apparently happens to a character, we're snatched away from them for 100 pages at a time. It makes reading it feel like a chore.

The best thing about these books is the concepts of the characters and the potential relationships between characters, it's a written soap opera more than anything. Yet Martin is determined to keep all his interesting characters apart. Jaime and Tyrion would appear to be an interesting relationship, and we're constantly told that Jaime is the person Tyrion's closest too, who actually has affection for him. We get one scene with them at the start of the A Game of Thrones. The next time they interact is at the end of Storm of Swords, like some 1,000,000 words later. We never get Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin together in a room even when they're finally all in the same building.

I kept reading because I'm a sucker for what-happens-next and wanted to judge on the series as a whole, but I realized I rarely felt satisfied whether in the quality of the prose or the plot developments and directions, just frustrated.

>>3622767
I agree with all of your points.

>>3622767
Also fuck all these Brienne chapters. We don't need them. At all.

>>3622715
I think most people that read enough to come to a literature board enjoy reading.

Just because something isn't sci-fi, fantasy, or a thriller (nothing against those. I don't dismiss genres) doesn't mean it isn't enjoyable.

>>3622767
>All we learn is that Lysa is crazy and doesn't like Lannisters (already knew this) and that Bronn is now Tyrion's sellsword.

After Catelyn captures Tyrion Tywin starts mustering his troops and Jaime attacks Eddard in King's Landing

Though i can agree on the fact that his books are in need of editing and cutting. Every book could be reduced by 100 pages more or less without much damage at all.

Take this as you will: my brother has a genuis level IQ, is a engineering physics grad at 20 and started reading novels at six. His favourite series of all time is ASOIAF.

You can't apply your personal social stigmas when evaluating a book's quality. I think the most definite trait of a pseudo-intellectual is the hipsterism mainstream-is-trash-I-gotta-do-my-own-thing-cuz-peaople-are-stupid-and-im-totally-not

>>3619993
It really does make me laugh that you deluded faggots simply can't wrap your head around people disliking something you like. You have to come up with these retarded reasons about why we're being disingenuous that are clearly ridiculous even you probably know you're a dumb cunt

>>3622922

One of my favourite series is Harry Potter (first four at least). I still think ASOIAF is poor. It has nothing to do with how mainstream the series is.

I wonder what specifically it is your brother likes so much about ASOIAF. Is it just the universe he likes to escape to? Or does he find the prose quality? Or what?

>>3620826
>>3621469
>>3621502
>>3621521
Hipsters do not exists and you may immediately disregard the opinions of anyone who thinks they do.

>>3622948
>I wonder what specifically it is your brother likes so much about ASOIAF. Is it just the universe he likes to escape to? Or does he find the prose quality? Or what?
I'm not him, but I can answer. It's the first or second novel-size, not-young-adult fiction book he's read.

>>3622954
Hipster detected.

>they still think fantasy books are literature

>>3622963
“Hipster” is a term co-opted for use as a meaningless pejorative in order to vaguely call someone else’s authenticity into question and, by extension, claim authenticity for yourself.

It serves no conversational function and imparts no information, save for indicating the opinions and preferences of the speaker.

Meanwhile, a market myth has sprung up around the term, as well as a cultural bogeyman consisting of elusive white 20-somethings who wear certain clothes (but no one will agree on what), listen to certain music (no one can agree on this either), and act a certain way (you’ve probably sensed the pattern on your own).

You can’t define what “that kind of behavior or fashion or lifestyle” actually is, nor will you ever be able to. That’s because you don’t use “hipster” to describe an actual group of people, but to describe a fictional stereotype that is an outlet for literally anything that annoys you.

The twist, of course, is that if it weren’t for your own insecurities, nothing that a “hipster” could do or wear would ever affect you emotionally. But you are insecure about your own authenticity - “Do I wear what I wear because I want to? Do I listen to my music because I truly like it? I’m certainly not like those filthy hipsters!” - so you project those feelings.

Suffice it to say, no one self-identifies as a hipster; the term is always applied to an Other, to separate the authentic Us from the inauthentic, “ironic” Them.

tl;dr: if you believe hipsters exist, you are a plebeian.

>>3619385
I really liked it

>>3622973
You're right, Hippies and Punks didn't exist either.

>>3622987
>being this unintelligent

>>3622973
>Suffice it to say, no one self-identifies as a hipster
I do. I fully accept that I'm a hipster. I wear tight chinos, checked shirts, actually listen to vinyl. I reject anything 'mainstream', including television, and I deliberately consume media that's obscure for the 'patrician' status. The strange thing is I actually grew quite font of the obscure things I consume, and my persona become real. But yeah, I'm a hipster and I don't care. I also wear a knitted hat and wear thick rimmed glasses to appear more intelligent, even though my eyesight is only marginally off 20/20.

>>3623011
>WARNING: DISINGENUOUS POST

>>3623011
Even if all of those things were true it doesn't make you hipster, you stupid faggot

>>3622943
I'm saying that people call it worse (and often better) than they think it is because it's so popular. I don't even think those books are that amazing but some people just shit all over them out of some need for attention.

It's like that craze for hating Metallica after Black album and Load/Reload came out. They weren't bad albums, but they were "mainstream" and so were rebuked. Maybe you shouldn't get so irate over someone else's popularity and go beat off in private.

>>3623018
>but some people just shit all over them out of some need for attention.

No they don't. Stop being an idiot and read some actual literature instead of fantasy books.

>>3623018
I don't know a single person who doesn't hate Metallica. You seem out of touch with reality (or you have retarded friends)

>>3623012
No, not at all. The majority of my friends and I are genuinely hipsters. We embrace hipsterdom and everything that comes with it.

>>3623014
>it doesn't make you hipster.
Umm, who are you to tell me what I can't be? I am a hipster, and I am proud to be one.

>>3623018
>Maybe you shouldn't get so irate over someone else's popularity

How many times does it have to be spelled out to you that this is not what is going on, it is just what you're telling yourself to defend your affinity for shit literature. I'm sorry for berating you, anon, I'm just trying to broaden your horizons and break your delusions.

>>3623031
>Umm, who are you to tell me what I can't be?

You can't be something that doesn't exist.

>>3623034
I do exist, you fucking solipsist.

>>3623036
I'm sure you do. Hipsters do not.

>>3623039
I am a hipster. I have gone out of my way to be a hipster. I am accepted as a hipster by everyone I meet, and have frequently been called a hipster by strangers. I am a hipster despite you not believing in me, and I will continue to be a hipster for the foreseeable future.

>>3623046
Incorrect.

>>3623047
Fuck you, I have spent a lot of money on being a hipster, and I wont stand for this bullshit. I'm going to read some alt-lit now.

>>3623052
This is ridiculous, just give up.

>>3623055
I will not give up being a hipster.

>>3620120
Ha!

I'm sorry, I'm just laughing at the irony. Because I got into Dark Tower when there were only 5 books and Stephen King got in a bad accident and we were just like the ASOIAF people are now. "It's never going to be finished"

It's fun to get into series that are not quite closed, because you get a lot of energy worked up wondering "What's going to happen" But closed ones give you the peace of mind knowing that something will turn out.

>>3622767
I disagree about the vale sequence but other than that you've got it spot on.
Martin is good at creating interesting characters that have great potential relationships, (like a soap opera)
But the problem is all the filler. All the things he has them go through that don't develop their characters, just keep them busy until it's time for their "scenes"
Which would be okay if they were off-screen, the problem is he started out having them take turns telling the story, and that means every single one of them is going to have some part in the series where they're on stage but there's nothing for them to do yet.
Now he must have realized his problem, because he cut the cast in half and had some of them updated in one book and had the others updated in the next. But that's not going to solve the problem entirely. What he needs to do is shake them up, have a bunch of new interactions that he's never dealt with before, identify the characters that need character development the most and give it to them.

The worst, in my opinion, was Daenerys, I didn't want to hate her, but damn it I couldn't help it. Her character development has been so badly handled that you can't connect with her, there were just too many scenes where her circumstances would change. But we'd only get to see her change once in a while, when we were lucky.

Amazing series. Amazing characters. Amazing story. Amazing world. Amazing 1st season TV show. Okay 2nd season TV show.

Amazingly long for him to write the fucking series.

>>3619517
At least it's honest. In this world events don't unfold as fucking pretentious descriptive poetry.

He wanted to describe animalistic sex / rape. He did a good job of it.

>>3619573
Another great passage of an honest description of lust. Sex isn't always floating on clouds made out of roses shit. Writing should be honest.

>>3623105
His series would benefit from editing, though. With a proper editor you'd could cut down his books down to 300 pages or less, and they would be improved as a result.

>>3623101

> I didn't want to hate her

Why not? I'm still really surprised when I see people who think Daenerys is a sympathetic character. Martin's a middling writer, but he's not so stupid that he thinks she is likable or sane. She's one part tragic hero mirroring Ned - her compassion for others inevitably comes back to ruin her - and one part mentally ill teenager buying into her own legend. She is not a good person. She is not even a nice person. There's a reason Martin keeps comparing her to her father.

The fact that she is also boring to read on top of this is what's really inexcusable about her character, but Martin simply does not possess the writing chops to do such a monumental concept justice. Then again the only fantasy author I can think of who had any degree of success in something similar was Herbert.

>>3623149
I would agree for the last 2 books. Even though A Storm of Swords was 1000+ pages it was so brilliant I wouldn't sacrifice any of it.

>>3623157
I would hardly call it a sacrifice. As mentioned before, GRRM is very inefficient writer - he wastes pages on things that have no effect on the story or provide insight into the characters. It's all excess fat, ready to be trimmed. He's not being paid by the word, so it's just plain laziness. For instance, I'm convinced that you could represent the entire character arc of Cersei or Catelyn with, say, three dialogue scenes.

>>3623151
When it opened and she was being sold into marriage, I was interested for a little bit, but I started getting pissed as her sections kept interrupting the actually interesting developments in Westeros, Then I started getting pissed because of the reasons you illustrated.
There is just no "one note" that is strong enough to carry a character through four books. "I'm Daenerys, I'm ambitious but compassionate!" It's just not enough. People like Tyrion, because he has highs, and lows, wants and fears, strength and weakness, and he has complex relationships with people who are both more moral and less moral than he is. Daenerys is always determined, even when she's being compassionate, and it's 100 times worse in the show because you get no internal monologue.
'Bran is dreaming" "Arya is wandering" "Daenerys is overcoming obstacles"
There's just not enough change and development and they end up as updates.
'Bran is still dreaming," "Arya is still wandering"
"Daenerys is still overcoming obstacles"

But Arya's changed, though it was risky for a while. I don't know if she's going to continue to be interesting or if she's going to become filler, but she's never going to be as bad as Daenerys.

Sansa had long periods of slow growth, but she was always in the middle of the action at King's Landing. So people with better character were interacting with her constantly. And she's had this redemption arc from being a naive idealistic haughty girl.

But when you try to tell people that Sansa is a better character than Daenerys, they're like. "No,..B-But But, Strong Woman!"

First time on /lit/, but I enjoy the series. Sure his prose and style of writing is nothing to write home about, but I enjoy the deep histories and complex politcal atmosphere and not knowing what will come next. Then again, I've always been a sucker for anything relating to medieval times. It's an entirely different world to escape to full of it's own history and "current events".
Coming from a civil engineering student at UT Austin, and I've read my fair share of "quality literature".

>>3623854
Everyone's allowed to enjoy it, it's not one of those "Shall not be spoken of" books like Twilight or Atlas Shrugged. But when people come on here asking "What are it's flaws," or "what's wrong with it?" They're going to get an earful, because even though we like it, we can still dissect it like crazy.

>what do you dislike

Nothing. I fucking love it and it's great. Go troll somewhere else you uncultured swine.

Only read the first book and I liked it. The book doesn't try to be poetical, it just wants to tell a story. If you get that, you can like it as it is.

the wall

>>3619517
"This scene will win me the Pulitzer!"

>>3619693
>Food. Food, food, food!
Heh. If I read the phrase "lamprey pie" one more fucking time...

>At least no one tugs on her braid every other sentence.
I smiled.

>>3623661

I hated Sansa at first, wanted to slap the shit out of her every time she showed up. Somewhere during the 4th book, I realized that not only was I enjoying her chapters, but looking forward to them. It was weird.

Dany is a whole different story. I liked her when she was wandering around with Drogo but interested started dropping off in the second book. Then she conquered Astapor and suddenly I was excited for her chapters again. It was all down hill from there. She proved that not only was she an incompetent leader, but a raging psychotic. Then the 5th book came and every one of her chapters was just her whoring around, thinking about Daario's cock, being an incompetent bitch. At least Cersei had people who could go above her head and fix her bullshit mistakes.

>>3619470

>all that garbage

And to think I share fora with such swine

>>3620518
DYING

>>3623998
Which one of those are bad?

>>3623105
Stop making fun of your own limited vocabulary by repeating "Amazing"

When anything's described as amazing a little warning flag pops up.

>>3623877

>likes ASOIAF
>calls others uncultured swine

top lel

>>3622715
Yes, A Song of Ice and Fire.

It's really annoying how he keeps using /milk of the poppy' like thirty times in each book. It would have been slightly clever if he had used that once, but it seems like he was really proud of himself for thinking of that and keeps using it over and over again.

these books are so fucking bad

>>3624175
It's really annoying how humans keep using penicillin like all the time. It would have been slightly clever if they used it once but it seems like they're really proud of themselves for thinking of it and keep using it over and over.

>>3624200

>this fucking guy

While we're griping about shit he says all the time, just about every one of Jon's chapters north of the wall has the phrase "sentinels and soldier pines".

>>3624200
How would you like to have to read about it every-time someone used penicillin.

Now what if they didn't call it penicillin but gave it a flowery nickname.

It's the kind of thing that an efficient author would trim back on.

No ones saying the series isn't fun, it's just bloated.

>>3619656

This man . . .

This man knows what's up.

>>3623008
>beingt this retard

I don't know about any other womyn, but I dislike GRRM because his works are basically conjuring up a playground for the privileged. Only a white cis male would ever think of being entertained by a rape scene in a book, because they can't fathom that some people have actually had to experience it. I'm surprised ASOIAF didn't have chainmail bikinis in it, that's how primitive it is.

>>3624359
privilege checked/10

>>3619394
My apologies, but after the third book the writing went to shit, almost as if he started cranking out books because he was afraid of being sued by HBO.

Anyways OP, there are tons of great books out there, this isnt really one of them. Entertaining I guess, good to read on the shitter.

Hmm

>>3623998
>criticize other people's choices
>don't offer your own choices to be criticized

>m-muh p-p-p-p-prose...

>>3624377
>almost as if he started cranking out books because he was afraid of being sued by HBO.

A Storm Of Swords - 2000
A Feast For Crows - 2005
A Dance With Dragons - 2011
Game Of Thrones - 2011

Yeah, he really started pumping them out in fear of HBO.

>>3624377
Cranking out books to satisfy HBO? It took him 3 years to write the second, 1 year to write the third, 5 years to write the fourth, and 6 years to write the fifth. He only made the HBO deal in 2010. The writing went to shit because he couldn't figure out where to take the story and lost interest.

>>3624377
It went to shit because it got too big for him and had expanded past what he had originally planned for.
Daenerys was obviously going to come into Westeros and be a force, but he knows when he does that the dragons are going to tear shit up and he's having too much fun in westeros,
So she's in a holding pattern.
At least he's started pulling triggers with other characters. Can't wait for Cersei to find out that she's been treating Tyrion like a bitch all his life, but it's going to turn out that Jaime is the brother that fucks her over.

You guys would treat ASOIAF the same way you treat The Wheel of Time if it wasn't mainstream.

>>3619385
Hodor, hodor hodor, Hodor hodor hodor—hodor hodor. Hodor? Hodor hodor hodor. Hodor / Hodor.

>>3619667

discussion can take place, its just that people are to afraid/unable to attach definite normative context to their aesthetic opinions, and or dont realise that the fact-value dichotomy isint really a dichotomy.

>>3624475
Read more fucking Kierkegaard you cretin. Real meaning exists, but you aren't humble before it.

>>3619411
fantasy is a poor setting, because it no longer inspires imagination

It's so formulaic

>>3624493

>>3622715

noone on a likes anime, v hates video games, lit hates literature.

it makes me think that, perhaps, the demographics are even a slight bit above thenormal effluent youll find discussing things on the internet.

>>3619421
You should read 'Gagner la guerre' and 'Janua Vera' by Jean-Philipe Jaworski.

That is, if you read French. Those two books reconciled me with the genre, even if I still think 99.9% of it is shit.

>left wing propaganda
The right wing propaganda is no better.

>>3624535
The more you like something, the more joy you get from bitching and complaining about things that are wrong with it.

>>3624490

thats sort of what i was trying to imply.

>>3624548
Well, describing the value-fact distinction as a dichotomy isn't really helpful there, it sounds more like a Nietzschean imposition of a human ordered absolute.

>Fantasy

>>3622922
>engineering physics
Well, that explains his shitty taste.

>>3622922
From a formal analysis, the work is poor.

You can enjoy it, and good for you.

You can eat shit seven days a week for breakfast and good for you.

>>3622922
No surprises there. STEM folks usually have pretty awful taste in everything.

Nothing

>>3624429

superior

>>3619385
I genuinely enjoyed the first few books.
And then it all went to hell.
.
>mfw I've invested so much time.
>mfw I can't fucking quit now.

There will be one righteous moment of comeuppance in the story. And when that moment comes, I will slam down the book, unfinished, throw in the others, and burn that shitpile to the ground.

>>3624175
>these books are so fucking bad
lol no they're not silly.

>>3622687
It isn't semantics; there's a vast difference between bad prose and not having prose.

>>3624578
The work is terrific; the writing is often poor, but then there's far more to the work than the quality of its writing. In fact, the books' strengths aren't even wholly dependent on the quality of the prose, which, as this thread proves, /lit/ fails to understand.

>>3624986
Yeah, droolingly long, pointless and uninsightful unreliable narrators. No that hasn't been a staple of pulp ever.

>>3624535
Most of the people on /a/ love anime. The folks on /tg/ love traditional games. /ck/ loves cooking.

There are boards who like what they are meant to. We're just being a bunch of arrogant and bitter fuckwads.

>>3624998
What are you on about and how does it relate to anything I said?

>>3625009
Formal analysis includes character, plot, theme and any substantive point.

If you haven't realised that none of the narrators are trustworthy in this book, why don't you read Lolita until you get the point.

>>3625013
...when did I imply that the narrators were trustworthy?

And how is a narrator meant to be 'droolingly long, pointless and uninsightful'?

>>3625029
Clauses can have implied nouns.

>>3622670
>The truth is, any activity can be used as an escape; but some things are of no use outside of that.
I hope we're not implying ASOIAF is of no use outside of escape.

>>3619411
Good lord this is true. Half of /lit/ thinks the second anybody other than them has heard of a book, it's suddenly bad. I feel like most of them read through a bunch of "underground" books they dont understand and/or absolutely hate just so they can say they read it and be proud of themselves for being such "intellectuals".

>>3619411
In the areas asoiaf devotes itself to most of all, I'd say the series is pretty fucking groundbreaking. The first three books at least are terrific, despite Martin's language.

>>3625786
If a song of ice and fire never became a best selling series, or never had a television adaption made, I wonder how /lit/ would regard the books.

>>3619385
People who think ASOIAF is riddled with sex/rape scenes have obviously never read the series. They're always implied or referred to, rarely described.

>>3625814
They'd probably think it's the best series.

>>3625819
Why the hell read them then?

>>3625853
For theplot.

>>3625856
You you double pleb.

I've not read any of the books but I think the show is fairly entertaining. This being said I don't give it credit for anything else. It's entertainment and nothing more. I only watch the show when I need to shut my brain off.

But then again almost every show is like that because the vast majority of people only wants to be entertained when they turn their TV on.
It's sad to see shows like The Wire barely get any recognition outside of some dedicated fan communities.

>>3625890
I want /mu/ to leave.

>>3625890
>he still believes in the false pleb/patrician dichotomy

>>3625892

go back to /tv/

>>3625892
Damn, /tv/ masturbates all over The Wire. And while I consider the show amongst the very best there is, there do exist better series.

As for Game of Thrones, it's definitely very enjoyable but at the same time a pretty poor adaption of a source material that, despite what this board tries to convince itself and others of, is more than entertainment. Sorry /lit/ but if you gave the books more of a chance you'd see this to be true.

>>3625956

>despite what this board tries to convince itself and others of, is more than entertainment. Sorry /lit/ but if you gave the books more of a chance you'd see this to be true.

Fucking hell. Despite what you're trying to convince yourself and others of, nobody on /lit/ is refusing to give the series a chance, there are people criticizing it here who've read all 7 books, and I don't give a shit how mainstream or popular they are, they're still sucky in many crucial elements.

Don't ask why we think the series is garbage if you're just going to tell us we're on an agenda when we give our reasons why.

>>3619601
Valid/Invalid, True/False, Good/Bad, none of these binaries can in fact be validated, so none of them can be called true. So, without any other options, they all must be false. And none of them can be called good either, because if they were good they could be validated, since validation would be inherent in the very nature of the goodness: thus they are all bad. Therefore, all your opinions, for and against, are invalid, false, and bad. And my opinion too is invalid, false, and bad: but that alone does not free you, because the law of non-contradiction is also arbitrary - it too is invalid, false, and bad - so everything is held in the bonds of one conclusion: all opinions are false, invalid, and bad.

>>3626000
The fact that the series doesn't even consist of 7 books makes me think you're precisely the kind of person who doesn't know a thing about these book's 'elements' and just latches on to whatever current bandwagon herd mentality is going around.

And another thing: this board NEVER gives reasons why these books are so supposedly horrible. You just regurgitate the same automatic phrases and go-to cards. "Soap opera genre pulp". That's all that's ever said. It's meaningless drivel.

>>3626026

A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords: Steel and Snow, A Storm of Swords: Blood and Gold, A Feast for Crows, A Dance With Dragons: Dreams and Dust, A Dance With Dragons: After the Feast

>>3626034
There's 5 books, my friend. The mass market paperbacks released two of them in two editions.

>>3626042
There is five books?

>>3626042

I generally think of a book as each individual physical volume in my hand and SoS and DwD came as two books each, the paperbacks at least.

This is GRRM with his ex-wife.

>>3626053
he has a huge head

>>3626053
Bitch is wearing the Amulet of Kings.

>>3626053
They look like they're at an Eyes Wide Shut-style orgy.

>>3626068
He's illuminati, I knew it.

ALL MY RAGE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSPFJcxCNM#t=08m04s

>>3626095

Ibs her 1 redebbing cwalibty dab an her cheebbones :DD

This Thread:
"Do you like these books?"
"Yes,"
"What do people think something's wrong with them?"
"Well, there are several reasons, here let me list them...."
"You're such a pretentious elitist! Your opinions don't matter,You just don't like ASOIAF because it's not a yellowed old classic that you can show off to your friends!"
"But I do like it, I've said that."
"But you can't like something and acknowledge its faults!"

Well I'm sorry, I did my best, but I'm out, I'll let the ones who hate the series battle it out with the ones who think GRRM can do no wrong. It's just too exhausting.

>>3624377
>Anyways OP, there are tons of great books out there, this isnt really one of them. Entertaining I guess, good to read on the shitter.
Goddamnit i fucking hate this argument and it gets posted all the goddamn time on this board. You guys treat the novels like it's a generic 80's action flick with no deep story whatsoever which is not the case at all. It's a special kind of mature fantasy where unexpected things happen and the main character is not a guy who's village got burned or something.
He doesn't focus on the philosophical but the themes are there atleast. There's conflicts of war, destiny, family and honor. His prose isn't bad either and his characters are fucking well written.
The main problem i see with the books is that they're too long, and there's way too much filler.

I personally love the series. It's fun and exciting.

The show is okay

I just like hearing what the characters are thinking.

>>3626197
Subverting traditional fantasy conventions does not make your work good.

> Unexpected things happen

Like what? He kills off the guy you thought was the main character. Oh wow, how fucking thrilling. I can't wait for the next twist.

With that said, to be honest my biggest gripe with the series is the kind of people I see reading them: Fedora neckbeard engineering or IT students. All of my hate.

>>3626242
Add a drop of lavender to your bath and soon you will soak yourself calm.

>>3626245
Actually sounds soothing as fuck.

Thanks for helping me subvert traditional bath norms, something that certainly does make your bath good.

Because its fans think it's something more than entertainment.

>>3626256
But all art is entertainment, Anon.

>>3626242
>>3626255
Wow, you're a faggot. I could've written a long response to your clever arguments but i'd rather just insult you and trust that someone will make you realise that you're wrong somewhere down the road.

>>3624043
>assberg thinks writing a post on 4chan has to be a literary achievement.

>>3626311
Could you have written a clever response?

Indulge me.

>>3626358
No, i couldn't. Read again, read my former post too, if you like and while you're at it how about you read the actual books too?

>>3626368
> I could've written a long response... but I'd rather jus insult you

Well can you at least write a long response then?

Also, I don't which former posts are yours, no IDs in /lit/. So I can't read them.

Why are so crazy about defending GoT to some strangers on the internet?

If you enjoy it, is that not enough? Must it have literary merit from those that would catapult it into the canon* for you to really enjoy it?

*(Not suggesting /lit/ are canon inducing demigods)

>>3626387
I accidentallyd words. You get the gist, though.

>>3625892

>showfags

>>3626387
>If you enjoy it, is that not enough?
You act like you enjoy it because it is interesting and entertaining. In fact, it is neither. You only like it because it's one of the first adult books you've ever read.

>>3626951
>telling someone why they enjoy something
>your enjoyment is false and without meaning, when you see the light you will realize you weren't having REAL fun

You are the worst kind of person.

>>3626965
Your enjoyment is not 'false and without meaning'.

The fact is, it stems from the fact that it's the first adult fantasy novel you've read, not from the content of the novel itself.

The same is true of video games, music bands, TV shows, movies, etc. -- the first of a genre you experience always holds a special place in your heart, even if it actually sucks on an honest, objective consideration.

>>3626965
>>3626951
>>3626894
>>3626991
Yay, this thread's almost reached it's bump limits.

>>3626242
0/10

I wish /lit/ would stop baiting us asoiaf fans. Do you really have nothing better to do with your lives?

>>3627644
better is a meaningless word. it's what im doing right now.

Sage.

>>3626387
Why are you so crazy about criticizing GoT to some strangers on the internet?

>>3622767
>>3622770
>Why was it necessary to send Tyrion through the entire Vale sequence?
Really? Jesus, that was basically the event that sparked off the war. Cat arrests Tyrion, Jamie demands the release of Tyrion, Ned refuses, get's attacked, demands Tywin to answer for Clegane.
Also it was the first substantial look into cat's character. We learn she's stricken enough to arrest a lord on nothing but suspicion, and thus endanger the relationship between the houses. This thoughtlessness due to emotion over ridding sense is, as we later learn, a fundamental flaw in her character. It was a great example of the author being able to delve into the minds and emotions of people through describing events, rather than fanciful prose (which I admit he can't do).
It's also the first instance where we witness Tyrion's capability to manipulate others and situations. His trial made for a great read in itself, but this talent is fundamental to his personality and certain events down the road.

>This kind of near-miss crap happens so often I just stopped believing in them.
I honestly don't remember any of that happening.

>He goes into detail about what everybody is wearing like a shopping list, but all the time he's doing this he's not giving information on the atmosphere or mood.
His particular approach to atmosphere and mood is to create it through the actions of people first and foremost. Martin doesn't describe atmosphere or mood; he lets his characters develop it for him. I personally find this method very affective. The result is natural, rather than the author trying to feed us mood through beautiful writing.

>>3627977
Tyrion being seized was necessary and sparks the war, yes, not him being transported to the Vale and back in a sequence that long to achieve so little. I thought it was going to have relevance when Tyrion declares he's going to take the Vale for the tribesmen, but that thought ends straight away. We do learn about Tyrion's ability, but the event seems to affect nothing and nobody very much, with no big revelation or twist either, for what is basically the bulk of his adventure in aGoT. It's a good example of bloating in the series.

>I honestly don't remember any of that happening.
Arya spends weeks/months travelling to Riverrun, misses Cately and Robb by about 10 minutes before TRW events. Brann travels for weeks north, and is in the Tower in Storm of Swords when Jon arrives in the same village, but they never see each other, Brann is luckily in the Tower an hour or two before Jon arrives. The boat to take Sansa and Arya back to Winterfell if I recall was leaving later that same day, but luckily Cersei and Joffrey seize power shortly before, preventing Sansa and Arya leaving. Jaime, Brienne and Cleos leave the inn (on their journey to Kings Landing) a few hours before Arya/Hot Pie/Gendry arrive, they were pretty close to taking a bed too which would have brought them all together. There's a determination in Martin's writing to keep all the interesting characters apart by design, and seeing the interesting characters clash is one of this stories strengths, so that's frustrating.

>mood
Maybe it's a preference then, but, especially with lesser characters I don't find them powerful enough to create the mood on their own. Maybe this is why Tyrion has some of the best chapters, because he's perhaps the strongest character.

>>3628133
Tyrion going to the vale was most likely the best option to have him tried, given the situation in the capital and the likelihood of any Lannister agents following the party back to Winterfell. Cat, due to her emotional rashness, was certain Tyrion was responsible for the attempt on her son; a trial accusing him of such was practically inevitable, and the only safe place to conduct it was the Vale.

As for the outcome of his capture and trial, I too was expecting a subsequent conflict between the vale and Tyrion/tribesmen. It only made sense since Tyrion secured his life with promise to free the mountain tribesmen from the rule of the Vale.
Thing is, as I began to learn the more I read, the story of these books isn't based around the typical structure you often find, where people do this and that because they're set up to do so. Martin instead goes for a decentralized tapestry of different stories resembling the way history often plays out. Events often fizzle out in anticlimactic ways, or are changed by unseen forces. Once he arrived at his father's camp with the tribesmen, Tyrion, for all we know, was forced to put his vengeance on the Vale on hold due to his house's duties. He had to serve at the capital, so he made the natural choice of using the hill tribes as protection/tools. He saw that he could use them without fullfilling his obligation to them. By the time the Battle of Blackwater Bay was over, the tribesmen saw that they were being used and left. Tyrion's priorities were affected due to the circumstances placed on him; they went from The Vale and the tribesmen to the work of the Hand.
Things not happening according to the way we expect them can't be used as an excuse for pointless writing. We have to determine the reasons why events didn't transpire the way we were led to believe they would. Hence, Martin's specific approach based on historical causation.

>>3628302
Also, the issue of seemingly incredible timing and characters just missing one another. I think this tendency is in large part due to the author's goals I stated above: emulating the vicissitudes of real life over typical literary structure. The desire to continue to story partly through coincidence I find fits with a stylistic version of that emulation. I understand that it can be frustrating to see characters miss one another by moments, but with most of the examples you cited, the events wouldn't have been altered by much in the long run had characters found each other. I doubt Arya reaching her mother and brother before the RW would have changed the outcome. I think that's the defining issue; had these coincidences prevented significant changes in events, I feel there would be more reason to be annoyed.
Characters intentionally being kept apart is a symptom of this approach. It's as unlikely as these coincidences that so many characters would find themselves interacting with one another as often as you'd prefer, such as Tywin, Tyrion and Jamie. They're all involved in separate circumstances and events, and I think the relation between Jaime and Tyrion is far better explored through minimal contact between the two. We explore that relationship through proxy events, such as Jaime being a dumbass and confronting Ned in order to free his brother, with no regard to later consequences. Could be purely preference, as you say, but I think that approach is the more powerful and memorable in the end.

>>3627977
>Why are you so crazy about criticizing GoT to some strangers on the internet?

I'm not madfag. Just wondering what your deal is. Are you mad at me because I picked you as a fedora-neckbeard doing an IT and/or engineering course?

Don't worry, you'll have all the jobs in the future and can read GoT to your hearts content with all your tech buddies. I'll just be setting there flippin' burgers, don't you worry about that.

>>3628465
I'm neither mad, nor the same person you were talking to, nor a fedora-neckbeard, nor an IT and/or engineering student.

The projection is strong with this one.

>>3622767
So much truth in this post. Particularly in regards to developing interesting characters and then finding myriad ridiculous ways to keep them apart.

>>3628605
>and then finding myriad ridiculous ways to keep them apart.
>>3628367