/lit/ - Literature

I want to fap.

>>3613015

Fapping can wait.

Our future is more important.

I dred the day when Buddhism gets revamped into a more western language friendly. We'd see shit ton of psuedo-deepfags running around spouting about compassion and emptiness.

>>3613030

Buddhism is a better alternative to Abrahamic religions...

>>3613030
>I dred
dread
>the day when Buddhism gets revamped into a more western language friendly
It's called New Age.

>>3613033
No, thats what you get when you don't understand buddhism and think its a religion about peace and love and about sex/drug/rock&roll. Fucking 60s people are the worst.

>>3613033

I look around and I either see decadence or (Abrahamic) religions, what fucking New Age?

I'm not sure when but the Dionysian traditions will slowly become less demonized and hopefully accepted by the masses in so far as they leave the people who wish to accept those traditions alone.

>>3613031

No. mainstream Mahayana & Theravada are trash cultic insanity functionally indistinguishable from the Abrahamic and a couple of weird monastic groups that came up with some cool ideas doesn't change the fact that the religion is dross.

>2013
>still being a üntermensch faggot striving to find grand narrative
>not embracing the greatness of New Enlightenment
>ISHIGGYDIGGYDO

>>3613042

Greek mythology? Humanity as a collective is, unfortunately, too smart to believe in those again.

>>3613043

Ooh, tell me: Do they have laws as controversial as Biblical or Sharia law?

>>3613043
Abramahic religions have the politics/government by the balls in the western hemisphere. Buddhism doesn't come close in the west to Abrahamic religion. Stop kidding yourself.

A singular meta-narrative wouldn't be enough. You'd need several competing ones.

Oh, look! What do we have out there? Several competing meta-narratives.

>>3613047

I personally am not striving to find a grand narrative. However, the majority of people do strive for grand narratives and those who want to settle for one usually pick up religion. The problem with religion is that the religious do not keep it to them fucking selves and try to shove it up my butt.

I find it strange that no contemporary man has been able to come up with a grand narrative that works as successfully as those proposed by "prophets" 1000s of years ago.

We will either disintegrate into degeneracy and spiritual death or a Demigod forged of indomitable will and power will unite us all.

Your choice.

>>3613062
Could we then have a meta-meta narrative? Or would that be for the future's future?

>>3613062

> Oh, look! What do we have out there? Several competing meta-narratives.

Yes, and they suck, and they make people want stupid things like Sharia.

Are we unable to come up with new meta-narratives to replace the old Middle Eastern ones?

>>3612990
Transhumanism.

>>3613065
>Demigod forged of indomitable will and power will unite us all.

Exactly. Why have we failed to invent a contemporary Demigod forged of indomitable will and power to unite us in this time and age?

The world has been at the mercy of the Abrahamic God for too long.

Conquerors of the Void

Mankind fires its cockrocket to fuck the skypussy.

The expansion of humanity to the other planets (for now), and the stars beyond (later), offers a unique chance for humanism to generate a new breed of conquistador, one rooted not in the notion of capturing indigenous tribes for the sake of Christianity, but in preparing empty landscapes for settlement. Since it will be centuries or more before we encounter some other life form, we actually have time to prepare, to be ready intellectually and philosophically for whatever Other might be waiting.

>>3613052
Well they sat women can't into enlightenment and being a woman is therefore a lower stage of reincarnation. If you're a good housewife that makes tasty donationfood for the monks you might level up next time.

>>3613064
We have replaced the patriarchal and religious framework of our ancestors by a democratic framework inherited, in its outlines, from the Enlightenment. There are still narratives going on there on massive scale in this framework: progress (social and technological), religion, equality, market economy, european construction and such. Most people give credit to at least one (if not many) of these narratives. It is just that their authority is no more as deeply embedded in our cultures as the old narratives were, and that we have the means to analyze any of them from a critical distance. But we are still buying myths to a great extent. We simply do it in a more relative and self-conscious way, as entailed by a democratic coneption of ideology.

>>3613086
>Obsessed with Philosopher Kings
>Not making Philosopher citizens

>So, what is a possible meta-narrative that should be installed over whatever going to succeed our contemporary liberal societies?

You're a fool. It really doesn't matter "what" meta-narrative, for fuck sake that is all our society ever does, debate about "what" meta-narrative ought to describe us best. What we lack is the means to actually put ANY meta-narrative what so ever into action because we're always considering and debating things, and nobody comes to a resolution on anything.

What meta-narrative isn't important at all, what's important is how to discover the means to impose one.

http://alife.co.uk/essays/nietzscheanism/

I want this twisted sci-fi misinterpretation of Nietzsche's thought to become mainstream. Sort of a militant darwinism.

Let me give you an example of what I mean here:>>3613102
We could all gather in this thread and hold the most intelligent debate that has ever been conducted on Earth and come to the most profound conclusions that are ever likely to be discovered by anyone, and then we would all turn off our computers (probably not before masturbating to some porn) and go to bed satisfied with ourselves for being so clever and wise, and proud of the discoveries we made - and then in the morning nothing would have changed and we'd still be on /lit/ trolling each other with our opinions of DFW.

>>3613090
>they said
Who are you quoting/paraphrasing? Buddha once said women are not fit for monkhood due to their attachment to children/family/hardship through societal norms. But he certainly changed his mind after one of his female family member argued other wise.

>>3613102
Well he can look at history for that. First violent imposing of the narrative and after a few generations people will be properly born into it.

>>3613122
Also societal reward for adhering to the narrative. A bunch of vikings converted to Christianity because it was better for trade, lelel.

>>3613084

It is too early for that.

>>3613088
7/10
pretty cool grand narrative

OP-I'm curious to hear your reasoning as to how "western liberalism has failed" and specifically how "society is quickly disintegrating."

We live in a society with more opportunity to learn than any in history (with the internet) and a longer life expectancy. What exactly would you call a "good" society?

>>3613088

Either that or it will be Islamic conquests and Crusades in space.

>>3613088
>Other
Want happens if we run into a Solaris scenario?

>Camus
>Based Mediteranean Humanism
Camus argued against the "vertical" narrative of Christian (and you might as well add Buddhist, Islamic, etc) dogma as well as the "horizontal" narrative of Marxist, nationalistic, etc. dogma. Instead he advocated "Mediterranean" humanism. Essentially, a take on existentialism that pissed off the implacable Marxist Satre.

>>3612990
>>3613065
>>3613086
I think we'll just limp along in ambiguous mediocrity into the forseeable future.

>>3613099

Well, two particulars myths (Christianity and Islam) are gaining traction (in Europe, Africa, and China), and they are angry and preparing to engage in a grand war again.

Cannot we do anything about it? And no, New Atheism is failing.

>>3613117
> and then in the morning nothing would have changed and we'd still be on /lit/ trolling each other with our opinions of DFW

And why does it always end this way?

Buddha could do it. Jesus could do it. Muhammad could do it. Even Marx and Hitler could do it. Why cannot we do it again?

I am not blaming you, or /lit/.

But only the revealed religions, treated seriously, contain the revolutionary spirit of man.

>>3613127

Not OP.

Read this:

http://www.vice.com/read/john-gray-interview-atheism

>>3613139

Is Camus' narrative accessible enough for the layman to "convert" to the same way they convert to Islam or Christianity?

>>3613148

Or all convert to Islam.

>>3613151
>Christianity and Islam
>Myths

B-but, religions aren't myths.

>and they are angry

B-but, late capitalism.

>and preparing to engage in a grand war again.

B-but, neo-atheist fantasies.

>>3613054
Visit Sri Lanka some time

>>3613088
>Thinks we have the resources or the combined will to achieve space colonization
>Implying we're not all going to die on this rock

>>3613163

Well, not everybody agrees that those religions have been truly "revealed".

And I find it strange that our contemporary philosophers cannot study those religions and extract what *works* from them and run with it the same way we can inject arbitrary DNA in cells and let them multiply.

>>3613054
>this is what White internet "Buddhists" told me

Stop kidding yourself.

>>3613151
New atheism is pretty stupid anyway. If you are an atheist, you don't need to posture as a New Atheist just to feel like you are engaging in the great war aainst "obscurantism forces".
Islam and Christianism have been proeminent on a continentale scale for centuries and they have deeply influenced our culture. Even modern atheistic values come in part from christianism. It is no wonder they are still attracting people, particularly in poor countries. But the most powerful nations are laïcal nowadays, and they provides a model on how to integrate religion in a non-religious framework. I don't think we have to fear any kind of "religious takeover" anytime soon, and as long as people are left free of practicing or not the cult of their choice I'm good with people converting to Islam. Again, the worries over the spread of Islam, for instance, is a political more than a religious or cultural one. The question is how will we deal with emergent Muslim countries ? How can we craft a responsible patnership ?

I think laïcal democracy deserves to be defended, but don't worry, it doesn't lack defensors, and New atheists aren't the only one.

>>3613180

> B-but, religions aren't myths.

Mmm...

Those religions have enough signs of human craftsmanship on them. But their divinity is irrelevant, what matters is that they offer good enough purpose for people to follow and they work.

I would not have bothered about them if those religions were nice, but they aren't. They come with crusades and inquisitions and conquests and Sharia.

> B-but, late capitalism.

Yeah, right.

> B-but, neo-atheist fantasies.

New Atheism's death is long due.

>>3613134
Honestly, I'm fundamentally optimistic about the prospect of encountering alien life. In the future. Mankind now isn't ready for the strain and difficulty of full on communication with some new entity. As we move forward though, I think there's going to be real improvement in the nature of man, especially among those we send out beyond the protective sleeve of earth.

Our emissaries will be better than us, that's something I sincerely believe about the future.

>>3613133
The religious crusade option doesn't seem likely to me, at least not in the familiar sense of the word. There won't be any of the tribal satisfaction of convincing pagan hunter-gatherers of our spiritual RIGHTNESS, there are no Martian temples to conquer and burn, therefore confirming the destiny of our religion.

And when you consider the growing comfort the world has with secular, or at least vastly multicultural, education (doubly so in the sciences), I think we might have a degree of protection from that sort of hegemony.

>>3613189
>>3613195
>in the west
>thread about western countries
Stick to the relevancy and not going OFFTOPIC.

>>3613159
Not all new thought can be a world-shattering revolution. These kind of events don't happen unilaterally whenever someone has a great ideas. I takes tremendous amount of time, petty peculiar cicumstances, wide mass movements. The ideas are but the broad direction, the wave vector, to borrow from electromagnetics, of the phenomenon. There are many more thnigs at stake, on which we have little control. Change is already happening in our world. We just can't expect it to follow suit gently after a great conversation on 4chan or anywhere else for that matter. It would be naive and even rather childish.

It's too late.

Could we have stopped this - could we?

>>3613191
Well, DNA manipulation is no trivial matter, and after more than two thousand year of western philosophy we still don't know what make ideological system "work".

>>3613031

What has Buddhism contributed to the sciences?

The Abrahamic religions (at least for Islam during it's earlier days, and Christianity during the Renaissance and Victorian era contributed greatly to mankinds technological, philosophical and scientific progression)

Buddhism is stagnant.

>>3613197
>New atheism is pretty stupid anyway

I agree with you 100%.

> But the most powerful nations are laïcal nowadays, and they provides a model on how to integrate religion in a non-religious framework.

B-b-b-b-but, Islam is taking over!

> I don't think we have to fear any kind of "religious takeover" anytime soon, and as long as people are left free of practicing or not the cult of their choice I'm good with people converting to Islam.

But.. Sharia?

> The question is how will we deal with emergent Muslim countries ? How can we craft a responsible patnership ?


That's a totally different question. I am worried about either Islam or Christianity taking over (again, for the latter) our countries, or our countries crumbling for lack of grand narrative (which will push us into re-adopting religion the same way poor countries are doing it).

Seriously, why is contemporary humanity incapable of inventing a meta-narrative that can "take over" the continents dominated by Abrahamic religions? Marx almost got there, but then the USSR shat its pants and died.

When people only care about getting drunk and getting sex, its not a spiritual problem. It's a problem of overcoming a hedonistic plague. Have you heard the lyrics to pop music kids are listening to these days? It's difficult to find a song without the depiction of partying. Kids are going to party more than ever. Partying is the act of drinking so that you don't have to think about your shitty self. It's not a fun thing; you are in a room full of depressed, escapists; they drink so they don't have to be themselves, and thus, a party is a room full of people who have lost their identity for a brief period, and aren't really interacting with each other at all. Just inebriated senseless monkeys, throwing their drunken bodies to and fro like sailors on a ship mid-seastorm, tossing its powerless, sad souls to and fro before a lightning bolt strikes the ship and it splits in half.

>>3613200
Do you seriously think the major unrests and political battlegrounds in the world today are caused by religion and not by the consequences of capitalism and Western imperialism?

>>3613220
>the Welfare State
>foreigners

lyl

>>3613127
>western liberalism has failed

Some sort of movement to inspire people to seek out spiritual and mental enlightenment, whilst not forsaking material goods, but at least giving them less value.

That one's my favourite. Then it's class struggle again.

Why do we need a meta-narrative? What is wrong with hedonism?
Must we pursue something greater than our own existence, constantly strive toward an unreachable goal, forever pursue bleak rainbows in vain hope of acquiring some trivial treasure?
We should appreciate life, the art that is our existence, our universe; we should cherish it and adore the impossibility that is. A "meta-narrative" only distracts from this, let each enjoy their own personal goals, strive for their own aspirations which may be formed as a part of their own hedonism.
I am all for progress, and of becoming great, but the "meta-narratives" that you are attempting to prescribe only hinders progress, it is what denies us greatness.

>>3613200

All major conflicts and political battles since WWII have been because of socio-economic inspired ideologies. Religion has nothing to do with that and the only reason why it is relevant is because those regions happen to have vast oil reserves - one of the most coveted substances today.

>>3613227
The Renaissance just went off of the accomplishments of the Middle Ages and claimed the for their own.

>>3613159

Hitler was the last in the western world, I suspect. In this era, no one individual can wield control over what is published and what is not: that is established by the competition between various corporate interests. The problem is that these interests have no need to supply us with a new metanarrative because their current metanarrative ("buy until you are happy") suits them all just fine.

>>3613248
Rambo isn't real.

Europeans were never 'tuff'. Western people's default position is being beyond nigger-ape behaviour, not this 'tuff alpha american' ideal. Go fuck yourself.

>>3613270
It's because he was the last guy to wear a mustache. Now everyone is a faggot.

>>3613245

>empirical evidence observed and stated as is

>replies with a stupid /b/-tier response

>>3613248
Nice cherry picking.

>>3613229
>lyl SHAREEAH LAW

This is embarrassing. Read Kamali's Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence before you go full /pol/ again.

>>3613253
because not everyone is yet able to be hedonistic, many die before they have the chance.

>>3613271

Sure thing buddy.

>>3613248
>Rambo isn't real
>War crimes aren't cool
>Looking like that in any period of Japanese history was considered hard gay as serene beauty was considered the epitome of what both genders should strive for.

>>3613277

It's true. That's why I don't shave my whiskers.

>>3613278
>empirical evidence observed and stated as is

Oh wow.

>>3613286
The Japanese always looked like faggots. they're mongolids.

>>3613296
>>>/pol/

>>3613229
Judging from the "B-but" I guess you are joking about Shar'ia. But even if you were serious, it is still more of an economical and political problem. Africa had dictators who enacted ideologies way harsher than Shar'ia (with corruption on top on that) for decades and to be honest the West has benefitted from more than it has been harmed by it (because our governments had no qualms about harnessing the situation). I don't see why we couldn't treat Shar'ia as a problem of diplomacy, poverty and political desillusion. Not to say it will be easy to solve, but framing it as a grand cultural confflict while it is actually about people being hungry and tired of being the playtnings of a bunch of corrupt autocrats is rather delusional. The problems of Africa are rather daunting, but it is because Africa is a dauntingly complex place. Our supposedly threatened Western culture is not the central issue here.

As for religions taking over (more to the point of your post, then) I don't think that's gonna happen, at least not in Europe or the U.S. Roman Catholicism is an old thing, and while it is still progressing, it does slower than anywhere else in the world and has strong opponent (think about France adamant laïcal tradition, France invented modern edgy athesim because it was fed up with the Church, and this feeling is still largely shared among the French population. Die-hard Catholics are more organized and more noisy, but really they are a minority who shouts because it feels its clout shrinking). In the U.S, people tend to be more religious, but their religion had been blended for so long with laïcal democracy (there are Christians who support abortion rights because they value indivudual rights strongly) that it will not be a problem as long as the fundamentalists keep ridiculing themselves and the moderate keep valuing their own moderation.

Furthermore, I don't think we need that much grand narratives. They were natural when everyone was part of a rather tiny society, but in the global world in which we live now, it has become way too complicated. Not that the complexity of history has been reduced to uniformity, contrary to what some claim. There are still mass movements and wide sweeping ideas over there. But we have acquired a hard-earned maturity in the way we regard those naratives.

>>3613235
>people getting drunk and havind sex
Shortest accurate abstract of human history ever. Congratulations.

>>3613227
Islamic society is known to have translated many Indian texts. Islamic Golden Age occurred right after the Indian Golden Age. Indian Golden Age was also when Buddhism was shining in Asia. Philosophy, logic, medicine, math, and astronomy to list few major contributions to society/science. Trade across Silk road flourished. Both goods and ideas were traded.

>>3613165
Thank you for the link, this is an interesting article and in fact I may read this book if I get the chance.
As a history student, I agree that social/ethical progress is little more than a pleasant myth and that we are not really better than our ancestors, in a moral sense.

But my question is not one of morality. OP, if you are still here, I would like you to explain how you think society is quickly disintegrating. I don't believe that we are getting better, nor do I believe that people have ever gotten better nor can we get better in the future, but on the other side of the coin I think it's a bit silly to say we are getting worse. Western liberalism hasn't failed any more than anything else in history, and my question is what exactly do you think is bad?

I brought up information and life expectancy because they are pretty solid ways to say that people live "better lives" (not morally better, mind you) than we have in the past. More people definitely have more time on earth and that is measurable fact thanks to progress in the sciences. So what exactly are we failing to do? That is my question to you-what exactly is wrong that you think used to be right?

>>3613313

>mass movements

In the white west? surely not.

Hey OP have you ever heard of Christianity? Yeah, just do that.

>>3613285
That guy would have been considered a dweeb in any time period, including now.

I think we're going to have a return of a cyclical view of life in response to the current linear liberal one.

Rather than view each person as an individual, every nation as new, and time separating us "modern" people from the "savages", I think that as we learn more about the past we'll adopt a view of history closer to that in "The Decline of the West".

Our current idea of the afterlife is being destroyed, but our desire for one isn't. I think that we'll start to adopt a view of each generation repeating the thoughts and emotions of the previous one, and that this will follow a family/genetic line (both providing more personal significance to it, and in rejection of the current low birth rates and antifamily mentality of liberal capitalism).

This will lead to families and cultures being valued over nations and industry. Nationalism, or at least, a form of it (probably closer to a pro-multicultural stance with lots of cultural and ethnic pride) will become the norm.

As society's view of morality gets more and more nihilistic (and it's certainly moving that way), the idea of morality will collapse and move towards a life-embracing and family/nation oriented form of egoism.

Artists will start adopting pagan gods as a way to express timeless personalities and virtues, and as metaphors. The western worldview will collapse, and we'll get some strange form of left wing, egoist, amoral, life embracing fascism in it's place. Somewher along here, space travel will take off, and the colonies will start seeing themselves as the spiritual successors to the Greek golden age. Everyone will read annotated versions of Nietzsche. Eventually Spartan style Socialist/Communist/Fascist states will break out into a series of world wars, Platonism and Christianity will come back under another name, civilization will more or less collapse, and the universe will be splintered into a series of extremely culturally and ethnically different planets, comparable to the pre-colonial world.

Well, I'm planning on being a chaplain, but I have no 'meta-narrative' at the moment, or at least mine is constantly changing.

If I find one I'll let you all know.

>>3613341
>Spartan style
>Not modeled after Athens instead
>Top lel

>>3613216

I do not expect the next revolutionary idea to come out of 4chan. However, I thought someone could say something intelligent about what is going in the philosophical academic bubble.

>>3613341
I cant copy/paste, but that last paragraph was interesting.

I've been studying the story of Cupid and Psyche and I've been thinking about trying to make my own version of it to tell people, one that might be more modern friendly.

>>3613355
>Implying people are going to value civilization over culture, or thought over action

We're already moving that way, with the collapse of the autocratic class and the fetishization of prol culture.

>>3613370
>the fetishization of prol culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law
Learn it, love it.

>>3613237

The major unrests and political battlegrounds in the world, as you said, are results of socioeconomic and geopolitical problems. However, you cannot ignore the strength of meta-narratives like religion or Sovietism.

Ozymandias got it right.

>>3613253

Educate yourself: http://www.vice.com/read/john-gray-interview-atheism

>>3613376
Not sure what you mean by this. I was referring to the mass culture movements that value things like second hand goods, anti-materialism, rap music, ect. Look at gangster rap and the beat generation, compare this to people wearing large wigs and crowding their homes with expensive junk.

Society is starting to value prol culture over "high culture", and it shows.

>>3613281

You don't have to jump and defend Islam whenever it gets mentioned, you know?

You are becoming really annoying.

>>3613248

Oh man, that reminds me. I still haven't seen Rashomon.

>>3613313
>They were natural when everyone was part of a rather tiny society, but in the global world in which we live now, it has become way too complicated.

What is political Islam? What is Israel?

> But we have acquired a hard-earned maturity in the way we regard those naratives.

George Bush?

>>3613387
>Society is starting to value prol culture over "high culture", and it shows.
This has always been the case. Do you think serfs concerned themselves with Plato and Aristotle or with dirty limericks?

>>3612990
>enthrones the state as our God. Without any greater-than-life purpose we quickly spiraled into decadence and hedonism
you have no idea how humans work

>>3613335

I am an agnostic, and I think modern day Christianity is largely an O.K. grand narrative to live by. The only problem is that it is either to convert Muslims (who happen to be fucking the world in the anus at the moment) to atheism than to Christianity.

>>3613395

get on that shit right 'way son

>>3613419
>/r9k/ on sexual morality

Also didn't Japan use to be fairly open to screwing around for both genders?

>>3613405
>you have no idea how humans work

Educate me.

>>3613253
Ideally, >>3613341 would be a combination of both.

Eternal life would be defined by the extent in which a culture or family line is able to survive. People would continue to value certain states of being while not believing in an "end goal". An amoral worldview will become more excepted, and life will be thought of as inherently tragic and beautiful.

>>3613408

Not the guy you're talking to. While I am wary of anyone claiming that back in the days culture was culture and men were men, I think that there has been a dying out of "high culture" as a concept as the sheer volume of "proletarian" individuals with the ability to create, disseminate, or consume text has skyrocketed in the last few generations. It's one more stage in a process lasting centuries already, whereby the cultural empowerment of the "low" leads to the "high" culture being buried.

>>3613428
No, going for boys was for purity reasons, not hedonistic sexual satisfaction that we currently live by in this era. They were in some strange ways "conservative".

>>3613408
No, but I think that serfs and the bourgeois saw "high culture" as desirable and inherently valuable, while now people are starting to view prol culture as owning more "artistic merit".

>>3613433
>"low" leads to the "high" culture being buried.
Academia and history have always acted as great filter for this. If anything this might be best as it makes it much harder to ever lose a "great" work.

>>3613331
Depend on what you think qualifies as "mass". A presidential election has many traits of a mass movement and many mythical aspects too.

>>3613408
>This has always been the case

Where are the Einsteins, Kochs, and Darwins of our time?

Society does not really celebrate great intellectual achievement like they once did and yes, back in previous history these people used to carry far more weight on the social scene than they do now. Now they've been shunted aside where previous they at least had an equal footing with sports stars, musicians etc.

>>3613446

The problem is that academia is itself a facet of the "high culture". I don't think higher education will pass out of favor within my lifetime since to some extent it's economically necessary to have men of letters in the world, but I wouldn't be surprised if it loses its relevance to all but a minute subset of society.

>>3613451
>equal footing with sports stars, musicians etc.
People back then wanked on more about leaders, musicians, warriors then many of the great minds we admire today. There's a reason the term gnat fly of Athens was used.

>>3613356
My point was precisely that revolutionary ideas, wherever they may come from, are just not all the deal of revolutions. The October Revolution in Russia was a consequence of WWI (which itself was a consequence of an infortunate series of circonstances) as much as of Marxist ideology.

>>3613451

>Where are the Einsteins, Kochs, and Darwins of our time?

I don't think this is a symptom of any sort of change in cultural standards. The kind of broad theoretical work that made Einstein and Darwin famous (can't speak as to Koch) is not relevant to a modern scientific milieu, which is in large part devoted to experimental exploration of the ramifications of corollaries of the sweeping theories the late 19th and early 20th centuries proposed. It's a very interesting topic in its own right but it's primarily a phenomenon within academia, not I think connected to broader social trends towards a "lowering" of culture.

>>3613451
>Society does not really celebrate great intellectual achievement like they once did and yes, back in previous history these people used to carry far more weight on the social scene than they do now
There are literally 10000x more intellectuals today than there was intellectual 100 years ago. Advent of Universities made intellectualism available to the mass. The advent of internet made things even more easier. We are living in the times of great intellectual (compared to any other time in our history). 100 years from now, I could almost say more than there would be nearly 100x more intellectuals than there are today.

Decadence you say?

>>3613486
This. We currently live in an era of exponential development compared to other periods of history.

>>3613492

See:

>>3613220

>>3613401
>political Islam, Israel
Well, they are example of the complexity of modern narratives. Not everyone is a religious Jewish or a Muslim even in Middle East, and even among Muslim they are feuds. Not to mention Israel, which is torn between the laîcal majority and the opportunistic alliance of the military and the religious communities. It has indeed become extremely complicated. Those examples simply further prove my point.

>Georges Bush
He hijacked the country in a time of great trauma. Traumatic events are bound to generate their own narratives, but you already see people discussing wether 9/11 changed their life that much. Barely ten years after. If anything, the narrative has been challenged rather fast. And most people agree that George Bush's take on Middle-East wars was disastrous.

I never said religious narratives didn't matter anymore, but that they were no more monopolistic and unchallenged, and that i was the same for all great narratives.

>>3613507
>Not everyone is a religious Jewish or a Muslim even in Middle East, and even among Muslim they are feuds

What about the political Islamists in the West (i.e. Europe)?

>>3613494
>exponential development
What the hell does that mean? You mean we produce more reality TV shows and frozen dinners than at any other time?

>>3613472
This. Also
>where are the Einsteins, Kochs and Darwins of our time
You haven't heard of them because the were less media-friendly than Einstein and their researches didn't led to the developpment of a radical new weapon in a time of world war. The more sciences progress, the more complicated the great change become. Aside from that, you can't expect science to revolutionize itself every decade. We had three major paradigmatical shifts in physics in the twentieth century, I think that's enough. We are still busy unraveling the conseqences of 20th century discoveries.

>>3613524
Amount of information produced each day currently would be mindboggling to people 100 years ago. And unthinkable to people 1000 years ago. Seriously.

>>3613524
If you want an example simply look at your computer.

>Any antiquated historiography approach to large societies needs to artificially apply a false awkwardly overarching narrative that destroys true historical academic approach.

Common people are happy fucking feeding and fighting.

>>3613433
"High" and "low" cultures are artificial notions. Shakespeare was a part of the theater scene of his era, and sure the guys did love to pander to the crowd and indulge in dirty puns and overdramatization. Shakespeare's plays were written to be staged in front of a crowd of dirty peasants throwing vegetables at the actors. Granted, they were also written for the court, but a good playwright as Shakespeare wrote was able to please both. High culture doesn't lie separated from low culture, it arises from it.

>>3613549

My point is that this is not happening any longer. Where is the rising high culture?

>>3613539
Also, you learn more in a single issue of a weekly magazine nowadays than most people would have in a lifetime in the century of Shakespeare. I don't think you realize how shit was the life of the average guy onr century ago. People living past sixty were exceptionnal until way into the twentieth century.

>>3613549
You know nothing about theatre history if you think the groundlings were jumping over each other to get a spot in the Globe.

Forget everything your English 101 teacher told you: Shakespeare's theatre was mostly attended by regulars, and none of them had dirt on their faces.

>>3613515
I never said they didn't exist. But surely you won't argue that political islamist are considered the only valuable voice of opinion in the West. Pretty much everyone is defiant of their narrative. Dissenting opinion is inavoidable in a complex democratic society, it doesn't mean that one minority opinion is bound to overthrow the whole society. If you can't deal with that, I'm afraid the only soution will be to buy your own island or to retire in a convent.

>>3613220
You could of voted for ron paul.
Why didn't you listen?

>>3613245
welfare is essentially just free money, thats decadence
foreigners are flooding the first world because of how well they're doing and just leeching off of welfare.
The future looks like shit.
Remember the future people from that south park episode where everybody was exactly the same?
Thats our future.
US gets mexi flood
UN gets muslim invasion.

>>3613568
>You could of voted for ron paul.
Boy it sure is 2008 in here.

>>3613557
Except Shakespeare's plays haven't been staged at the Globe only, and that they do contain a fair amount of deliberately base stuff.

>>3613572
Not to mention that the nobles in the court could probably enjoy a dirty joke from time to time.

>>3613553
>Where is the high culture ?
All around you. You are on the internet. Just do some research and you will see plenty of amazing stuff. The real difference is that culture is now spread among a variety of media. But if you are dedicated to find worthy stuff you definitely will.
Also >>3613557: everyone was rather dirty at the time of Shakespeare. The rich much less so than the poor, but still.

You've read my mind OP.
If I were to become religious, I'd become Catholic. If there is a greater power, something
that guides the universe or set it into motion, then you're right, there is no chance that
we could ever understand it. Scientists can probe into their specialist fields, but to have
an understanding of the whole thing at once is impossible. That's why I don't dig the
Protestants or Buddhists. There's no amount of meditation or prayer that will give you
special insight. The best we might do is to come into a symbolic relationship with God.

Maybe I'm rambling. Someone else have a comment on this?

>>3613607
>catholic
Thats like second worse religion after judeaism.
satanic pedophiles.

>>3613568
>Implying US=The world
Nationalism is on the rise in Greece, and India and China (which both are in huge contrast to our modern, liberal, christian society) are starting to emerge as superpowers to replace the US.

Hell, even in North America, Canada is slowly overpowering the US economically and culturally, while retaining a very European culture. Even the immigration, although high, is from a generally wealthy and educated upper class, and the ethnic/cultural groups stay mostly self-segregated.

>>3613678
>Hell, even in North America, Canada is slowly overpowering the US economically and culturally, while retaining a very European culture. Even the immigration, although high, is from a generally wealthy and educated upper class, and the ethnic/cultural groups stay mostly self-segregated.
This. In the future the whiter northern parts of the US may as well join Canada.

this is some weak bullshit

>any big society needs a meta-narrative
>society needs a meta-narrative
>society needs
>society
>needs

Nope

Prepare for the arrival of Robotic Oliver Cromwell.

A sentient, ninety foot bronze colossus who dispenses justice, enforces strict Puritan morality, and leads the Commonwealth Empire into battle against papists, freethinkers, and savage recreants.

OH COME YE LORD PROTECTOR

>>3613678
>my sides
Stick to talking bout books, darling. You're clearly clueless about geo-politics.

As for you OP, I'm glad we've escaped the tyranny of the meta-narrative. Such things were only used to justify exploitation and oppression. Good riddance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSfYrPdTKVA

Here's our narrative.

>>3613784
ps fuck john smith

>>3613678

The multicultural hordes have their claws deeply embedded into Canada, I doubt that they will become the next beacon of western thought.

>>3613697
>Implying Canada wants or needs any 'mercans.

Anyways, the whiter parts of the US are the ones pushing mass immigration and assimilation. I enjoy having European neighborhoods in Ontario and Chinese ones in British Columbia, why would I want American liberals pouring into this country pushing for Canadian "freedom" from the Queen and a melting pot culture?

You Americans made your own grave, lie in it and leave Canada alone.

>>3613799
>Multiculturalism
>Bad

It's only a problem for "melting pot" America. In Canada most of our immigrants are wealthy and stick to their own kind and culture. Just because your immigrants are poor Mexicans which move next door to you doesn't mean everyone's immigrants are.

Humanism is the grand narrative of an ineffable meta-narrative as the OP put it, you complete and utter faggots.

>>3613799
Yeah that's right Claps multicult very bad very scary. Now please stay within your side of the border.

>>3613227
Catholic and Orthodox churches are arguably some of the most important institutions in the history of science and technology. No matter what uninformed people on the Internet claim those churches protected, preserved and promoted learning, science and technology when no one else was willing to do so.

>>3613326
I am not sure but it seems like you are trying to attribute the Islamic Golden Age to Indian Golden Age which is not exactly a good interpretation of events. In addition I'd like to point out that Gupta Empire saw already a decline of Buddhism in India and rise of Hindu thinkers.

>>3613822


Oops. I completely spaced.

Humanism is the meta-narrative of the ineffable.

>you complete and utter faggots

>>3613819
>>3613825

>Multiculturalism
>Good

The idea that I should embrace something that neither I, my parents, nor my grandparents didn't ask or vote for is utterly ludicrous. They try to hide that behind vicious character assassinations of anyone who questions the wisdom of bringing conflicting cultures and disparate ethnicities, races, languages and religions together; as well as using silly buzzwords like 'vibrant', 'urban' and 'diverse used to mask what they really mean. I'm quite happy within a monoculture to be honest.

Freedom is Slavery.
War is Peace.
Diversity is Unity.

>>3613864
>I'm quite happy within a monoculture to be honest.

And that's why you're one of the most boring people known by everyone who knows you.

I bet you speak only one language, too. Christ. You're a walking embodiment of AM radio.

>>3613864
>I'm quite happy within a monoculture to be honest.
Hahaha fantastic. Please don't come Canada then, thanks a million.

>>3613864

This... this might be the year's worst post on /lit/.

>>3613864
The point is, multiculturalism as you fear it is an American problem. As a Canadian, the different races are divided on cultural, linguistic, and ethnic lines, not political and economic ones like you 'mericans. In Canada we have a very fasces view of race and culture, where there are many nations and ethnic groups are walking in step under a greater banner of Canadian identity.

>>3613881
America got along quite well before half of Mexico came over.
>>3613890
Well you're free to live in your multicultural utopia if you want to, but why can't I say "Yeah, no thanks."?
>>3613897
Why?

>>3613910

But why go through all that shit? Why risk problems?

>>3613917
Go live in an abandoned cabin in the middle of the woods if you want. Why shouldn't fellow citizens live where they want just because it makes you uncomfortable?

>>3613917
>America got along quite well before half of Mexico came over.

White American here, married to a Mexican. My bilingual kids (and their bilingual parents) will flourish in America while you and yours sputter and die out. You know that, right?

>>3613932

Why should they be brought over in the first place? Why can't I say "Yeah, diversity isn't for me, I'd rather live in this nice little white town."?

>>3613949

>Being bilingual makes you some sort of prodigy.

Yeah..no. I can learn a language without inviting its speakers round for dinner.

Conformist plebs can just die. I don't need your fascist régime further restricting my already intolerable life. I can't wait for a zombie, nuclear or other apocalypse to wipe out the blight that is mankind.

>>3613954
>Why should they be brought over in the first place?
They jumped all your immigration hoops (if legal) the opportunity was given and they took it. Now unto non-white second generation immigrants why shouldn't they get any autonomy in where they live?

>>3613958
>I can learn a language without inviting its speakers round for dinner.

The fact that you believe this shows you only speak English. There is only one way to learn a language, and that's by interacting with people who already speak it.

>>3613088
>Mankind fires its cockrocket to fuck the skypussy.
Impressive.
I like you.

>>3613972

Plenty of people learn Latin without speaking to Romans. And I can visit their country, they don't need to come to mine.

>>3613985
Nonsense. They learn to read it.

>>3613539
>Amount of information produced

That's not the same as 'development' - consider that there's a greater noise to signal ratio.

>>3613991

And speak it too.

There's some Scandinavian country which broadcasts a radio channel in Latin.

>>3614026

Well there you go then. You don't need to import millions of foreigners to learn a language.

I defy anyone to give me an advantage to diversity that I can't get from cookbooks or CDs.

>>3613917
>Well you're free to live in your multicultural utopia if you want to, but why can't I say "Yeah, no thanks."?
The point is, you can. There are loads of white communities in Canada because WE ARE NOT A FUCKING MELTING POT LIKE YOU AMERICOW PIGS.

There are a shitload of communities that are almost completely white. There are also a shitload of communities full of Asians, or Punjabis, or Natives. We all get along, work together, celebrate eachother's culture, preserve our own, and generally have a good time. Canada isn't like America at all, and for the most part ethnic conflict isn't a thing. I know this is hard for your mind to comprehend, but it's completely possible to interact with people or share a citizenship with them while remaining culturally and ethnically distinct.

>>3614026
Do you mean Nuntii Latini? I listen it weekly even when I don't speak Latin.

>>3614038
Enriching face to face friendships and interactions with people of different cultures. I certainly enjoy that a lot in Canada.

>>3614058

Define 'enriching''

>>3614058
Don't forget the sex, although it's mostly for novelties sake.

>>3614059
>enriching
Positive towards your development, intellect and general happiness.

>>3614038
>I defy anyone to give me an advantage to diversity that I can't get from cookbooks or CDs.
go away steadman


As for advantages, learning how to deal with people from different cultures for economic reasons is a big one. Learning languages is a plus. Being exposed to people with different backgrounds is mind expanding. I enjoy being able to celebrate both Christmas and Chinese new years. Being around other cultures and races helps you enjoy and recognize the defining aspects of your own culture and race. Finally, there's a special charm to being able to discuss high fashion with Koreans, play soccer with Natives, watch movies in French, smoke pot with Indians, and drink wine with Italians that your Amerifat brains can't seem to be able to enjoy.

>>3614038
>I defy anyone to give me an advantage to diversity that I can't get from cookbooks or CDs.

It's not that speaking another language is 'cool' like your flat screen TV is 'cool'. In America, people who speak both English and Spanish obtain better jobs, have a multi-faceted perspective on damn near everything, and they're generally more apt to be open-minded, astute, and accepting people (which you're obviously not).

The truly great thing about people like you is that you're obsolete. Once upon a time, white, monolingual bores like yourself were only obsolete on a world-wide scale (and not so in your own country) but now--now--you guys are obsolete even in your own country.

>hurr, why can't I be white and speak English

You can, but in 20 years everyone else who is bilingual and enjoying the perks of a multi-cultured nation will look at you with severe pity.

Go to bed, Grand Inquisitor

>>3614038

1st hand experiences, good or bad it helps the mind to process and synthesize differences and similarities into something new to be carried over in the next generation.

We as a society benefited from it greatly, it's not that you have to do it everyday but the absence of it is much more damaging than one might believe.

A good example of this at work would be math.

>>3614038
is this seriously your line of argument? the speakers of latin doesn't mean ROMANS it just means PEOPLE WHO SPEAK LATIN

who the fuck learns latin without speaking in it to other people, like a teacher and the other people who are learning latin?

>>3613864
I didn't vote for this cultural change!

>>3612990
THE CORPORATIONS AND THE MONEY.
The true Gods of modern society.

>>3612990
The West is dead. Best get used to it.

Technological utopianism has already become the new narrative of the Western world.

if we had just let women lead then this wouldn't have happened

>>3614124
lol society would have collapsed instantly

>>3614135
yeah nah

>>3614118
This is the now.
>>3614122
This is the next?

I agree the people is getting used to the ideo of replacing government by corporations (something I fear leads to a dystopian future), but the next seems singularity based, a cyberpunk perhaps?
I like more the cyberpunk idea, but I really dont like the idea the greedy business men touching by brain, not even like in neuromancer.
I prefer a computer, they at least make less passionate decisions, pic related.

>>3614143
i would have taken over then

>>3614118
With the daily Ayn "Rant" threads sure we praise corporations over God.

If our lives are losing all purpose, regaining that purpose is a goal in and of itself.

>>3613030
>Implying this hasn't already happened.

>>3613043
>Implying Buddhism is a religion and not a philosophy.

>>3614166

>>3614145
The dystopian future is already here, its just not all the way finished yet.
It started with 9/11, that was the great inversion, now we live in fucking bizaro world.

>>3614193
>>>/x/

>>3614193
By christsake man, I didnt meant that, I gently invite you to >>>/x/

>>3614197
Its relevant to the thread jackass.
And politics aren't paranormal
>inb4 >>/pol/

>>3614193
>hating on monsanto

you best embrace the power structure

>>3614203
>9/11
ITT conspiranoics from >>>/x/

>>3614203
Let me help you out newfriend.

>>>/pol/

>>3614184
>reincarnation
>not purely faith based notion

>>3614210
You'll be enabling your own death by taking it like a bitch.

>>3614203
Please dont bring /pol/ here, I didnt meant to bring your political in this trhead. Just wanted to state my point over the modern view on corporations.
Just go to /pol/

>>3614221
>You'll be enabling your own death by taking it like a bitch.

I only consume quality.

>>3613220

>>3614224
This thread was political from the start.
Sorry for showing you your own enemies you ingrateful piece of shit.

>>3614216
You're a fucking idiot if you think they haven't been milking the fuck out of 9/11 to increase their power structure.

>>3614217
I-AM-SO-SORRY
This is why I dont speak about corporations, every time I talk about corporations some right wing dude just want to speak about obama.
I hope the troll go away.

>>3614229
You don't understand what monsanto does.
If they keep raping the fuck out of everything, there will be no more organics in the future.

>>3614234
Why do you bring that. Dude I didnt vote for obama I voted for cthulhu, you cant say shit to me.

>>3613088
I'll take this one.

>>3613962
>Uses words conformist, zombie, and apocalypse all in the same post.
>How's high school?
Please leave.

>>3614245
I (not the person you are responding to) am willing to say 'shit' to you.... Specifically: Really? You are claiming that by not participating in democracy properly that you aren't responsible for the outcomes? Ha! NOPE! A democracy only works if its citizens inform themselves and then vote, and you have failed on both accounts. You are the problem, period. No matter what, republican or democrat, it is people like you who tear democracy down.

>>3614309
>matter what, republican or democrat, it is people like you who tear democracy down
I cant argue with that.

>>3614309
What if we want more choices than "A or B".

What if, every 4 years, it's a choice between two jerkoffs, and you don't want either?

>>3614324
Its just than politics became a downer with fox news say shit all the time.
But is cool man, you are right.

>>3614329
And this, people telling me I should not choose any party.
I can tell you man after a while these trolls get my nervs.