/lit/ - Literature

I think it's because most of the people who have the time to both read and play videogames a lot probably don't have the time to leave the house and talk to you.

>>3606006

They seem to manage just fine talking to me on the chan.

>>3606008
You said you didn't think you'd ever met or spoken to one of them.

Were you referring exclusively to real life or including the internet? There are a load of /lit/erati who play games, too.

gaming is awful

>>3606011

Both. And who here plays games seriously?

>>3606018
Could you please define your standard for "seriously"? I play a lot of games.

My favorite books are The Brothers Karamazov and The Glass Bead Game

>>3606023

Oh God, I dunno, I dunno. Own at least one console, and own at least 30 games. Hard to qualify or quantify these things.

>>3606027
>console
>serious gaming

I used to be a 'serious gamer' as a teenager, but when I got older I realised that it kind of paled in comparison to reading.

>>3606027
I own a PS1, PS2, 360 and a gaming PC. Used to own a Sega Master System, but sold it. I have 188 games on Steam, and a bunch more on other platforms that I can't be bothered to count. Mostly play on PC.

I read a lot, too, although that's been slacking recently due to having to write lots of shit on stuff I've already read for educational purposes.

>>3606005
I had a job immediately after high school taking these pictures; really interesting in a DFW how-do-we-deal-with-boredom and practice empathy sort of way.

my favourite book is Blood Meridian and my favourite video game is Morrowind

I abandoned /v/ a long time ago, around the time the /v/GA crap started and attracted the attention half the goddamn Internet

>>3606012
Correction: modern gaming is awful
You can thank big business corporations yet again.

I collect books and vidya.

If /lit/ has never played a video game, I suggest trying out a 90's RPG. A real RPG, not like Skyrim or Mass Effect.

is that young pizza teen

>>3606071
No, gaming is awful.

>>3606107
why?

>>3606119
Childish, shallow media. A timewaster, progresses backwards.

I don't play video games as much as I read, but that's because I don't really have any friends that game. I mostly play single player games.

>>3606124
Says who? Are we just supposed to take your word for it there, expert?

>>3606124
What a shallow view of an entire medium. I assume you don't like film either?

>>3606124
You mean 'regresses', chumlee.

Only games worth playing are strategy games.

i.e. Paradox games, Total War series, Civilization series, etc.

>>3606142
Yes.

>>3606132
That is not how criticism works.

>>3606133
But the same assertion with film is not entirely correct. With videogames, however, it is.

>>3606137
No, it is a progress. From toys to flashy toys.

In terms of art it is degradation.

>>3606150

Video games are a waste of fucking time.

They serve as distractions. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing to be learned from games that can't already be learned from books twice as better and more in-depth.

>>3606171
Not true. As the guy above said that the only games worth playing are strategy games, I've learned a lot about history from them.

>>3606171
>Entertainment is bad

What does serious gaming even mean?

Games are pretty much by definition never serious.

>>3606181
You can learn a lot more from books.

>>3606182
Good entertainment is good. Videogames are not.

>>3606027
I can easily meet that criteria

>>3606197
Where do you get your definitions from

>>3606199
>Good entertainment is good.

>>3606181
You could learn more about history from books, which was my point. Read my post again.

When you compare strategy games and books in terms of knowledge, the former gets blown out of the water.

>>3606182
There are dozens of better entertainment methods than putting in hundreds of hours into virtual, non-existent pixels. The entire essence of video games is gambling-based mechanics and rewards on a timer. The lowest form of entertainment designed specifically to hook the weak-willed.

You can keep telling yourself that just because it makes you happy it's worthwhile and therefore can't be criticized, or you can throw some shitty quotes like "Time you enjoyed wasting was not wasted" and that's fine and dandy, whatever floats your boat. At the end of the day however, video games add nothing of value to your mental or physical evolution.

>>3606206

Values are not real, and nothing is preferable to anything else.

>>3606206
>I have never played a video game
Please, continue. I find your lunacy amusing.

>>3606206
Is learning facts the sovereign good?

>>3606210
>Values are not real

Haha okay pal.

The argument turns into a joke when you utter something as retarded as that.

>>3606212
You dont even know

>>3606213
I dont know, but video games are sure as FUCK not the sovereign good.

>>3606227
I'll tell you something for nothing, and it'll be my last post in this thread: stop believing everything you hear on the news about video games.

>>3606227
Hedonism seems to be a decent value to aim for though. You should have fun once in a while instead of trying to just store up as much information as possible for some vague reason.

>>3606232
Crossed my mind earlier:

Have video games replaced pulp fiction? Seems to late in the game for that. I was reading Lanark (Alasdair Gray) and in the 50's kids would read pulp SF for fun same way they'd probably play an iPhone game

What killed pulp?

I'm playing demons souls and braid. I'm reading The Myth of Sisyphus and The Selfish Gene.

Video games and books are easily the two things I spend most time on (outside of earning a living).

Interestingly I'm sure that I spend much more time gaming than reading books (I read for 1-2 hours per day and probably play vidya for at least 3), yet I'm pretty sure that I've read more books than the average /lit/ poster without having played nearly as many video games as the average /v/irgin. Go figure.

Of course since the two games I've clocked most hours by far on are WoW and LoL, you might not class me as a serious gamer anyway.

>>3606229
I'll say it again, if you're a little thick to not understand implications.
I've played games for fucking years, I know what Im talking about.

>>3606232
Hedonism is on the same level as nihilism. There is nothing to gain or learn or become by being hedonistic. It's a pointless philosphy that only weak-minded go for because it's the easiest one to understand. The whole premise is maximizing pleasure, the end. It doesnt even take into account an individuals surroundings and that sometimes it's better to put someone else in front of oneself.

It's an empty, hollow and pointless school of thought.

>You should have fun once in a while

No shit. That is not what Im arguing against at all. Lets be honest with ourselves and not pretend like games don't take up at least 4-10 hours of a persons day on average. That is way beyond 'once in a while', that is bordering on addiction but god forbid you attempt to tell that to /v/irgins because they'll say they can quit anytime they want, while acting serious.

>>3606227

>The argument turns into a joke when you utter something as retarded as that.

This argument was already a joke, because you have not provided any arguments to justify your sweeping assertions, any more than did I. But it's good to know that you completely lack self-awareness as well.

I used to play a lot of dota, but it was impossible to read and play vidya a lot while maintaining a healthy lifestyle so I quit all vidya. I haven't really enjoyed it in a long time anyway.

>>3606206
>The entire essence of video games is gambling-based mechanics and rewards on a timer
That's completely false and shows that you know very little about video games.

But why does it matter? Must I spend all of my time doing what you consider objectively "the best"?

>>3606246

I play video games less than an hour a day mostly, because I have work and many other things to do. Keep projecting your videogame addiction onto others, though.

>>3606246
I greatly enjoy good video games and thus spend a lot of time with them.
There is nothing to be gained save pleasure, but that's a good end.

>>3606246

>Lets be honest with ourselves and not pretend like games don't take up at least 4-10 hours of a persons day on average

Dude, what? You're taking hardcore basement-dwelling nerds as the 'average' vidya players?

I dunno if you're completely out of touch with reality or just trolling with an impressively light touch.

>>3606246
I'd love to stick my head in the sand (And I pretty much do for the concept of ethics so I don't lose my mind) but I really can't see anything other than relativism if I look at it rationally. Just because you don't like the conclusion doesn't make it false.

>>3606206
Are chess and go also the lowest forms of entertainment?

Alright, I want to become a super cool dude and hate video games.
Where do I start?

>>3606256
>hardcore basement-dwelling nerds
>6 hours of vidya on average is hardcore

Yes, and I'M the one that's out of touch.

>>3606258
You cant prove something false when it comes to a situation like this because people will always cry about "muh personal pleasure". That is the point where most argumentation techniques fall apart, because you cant prove to someone video games are a waste of time when they're blinded and hide behind the veil of something as idiotic as hedonism.

Im not looking to logically prove anyone here wrong, because logic ends where emotions begin. I am merely telling you that wasting your time on something as petty as video games just thwarts your potential. It's disappointing.

I read Infnite Jest and Gravity's Rainbow and play Shin Megami Tensei. I get all the women.

>>3606273
What should he do instead?
>>3606272

>>3606277
>resorting to passive-aggressive side remarks to provoke a reaction

Top lel.

>>3606273
Reading is a waste of time if you don't apply what you read.

>>3606280
It is passive-aggressive, but I would like a legitimate response anyway.

>>3606273

What the fuck are you talking about? "Potential" is a myth. Nobody has got magical abilities that they could unleash upon this world IF ONLY they stopped playing videogames.

>>3606283
I dont know? There isn't a specific list of things to do to stop playing vidya or cut back on it at the very least.

Im not anyones personal mentor.

>>3606285
>Missing the point 101

Amazing. Because when I said 'potential' I meant they're secretly super heroes and their only weakness is video games but they don't know it yet.

>>3606273

>Yes, and I'M the one that's out of touch.

...seriously. Are you high? Many, many people who play vidya have jobs and earn a living. You cannot do that while playing for 6 hours per day, it is impossible. Many others have demanding study courses which similarly preclude total devotion to gaming. Others just have other hobbies, social lives or commitments.

I'd be willing to bet one of my testicles against the price of a beer that the average video game player - by which I'm willing to accept either the median or the mean, whichever you prefer - plays for less than 4 hours per day.

>>3606290
> the average video game player plays for less than 4 hours per day.

This. If we're going to criticize a certain medium, it should be the Internet. I spend way more time on the internet than I do playing video games or reading books. At least my mind is focused when I'm playing video games, when I'm browsing online I just zone out and go with the flow.

This thread is silly and it's not going to go anywhere.

>>3606290
>>3606293
Yeah.
I have no life and still spend more time on the internet than play games.
I'd rather play games.

Hopefully I will learn to loathe them and grow up at some point.

Video games are bad because I dislike them and not because I can form a coherent argument against them.

>>3606302
You cant form a coherent argument against someones personal tastes you fucking moron.

>>3606287
Maybe not a super hero but I'm genuinely curious as to what you meant by "potential"

>>3606302
They are bad because:

1. They are toys and thus childish.
2. Other media are much better at doing everything except being interactive, which is, as previously stated, the quality of a toy.
3. With the time spent on video games one could do any number of superior things.

>>3606304
It's not a matter of personal taste. Video games are objectively the worst medium and one of the biggest wastes of time ever conceived.

>>3606307
>I enjoy repeating myself over and over with half-finished arguments
>objectively
>objectively
>objectively

Fuck right off

>>3606307

>3. With the time spent on video games one could do any number of superior things.

No, one could not. There's no alternative to what exists.

>>3606308
Then give me a retort that isn't "b-but subjectivity!"

I'm not him by the way, I don't even necessarily agree, I'm just arguing for the sake of it.

>>3606309
Semantics. With the POTENTIAL time wasted on video games one could POTENTIALLY do any number of superior things.

>>3606310
How can I argue against something that is "this is superior because good things are good"

What the fuck's even meant by superior things?

>>3606312

>POTENTIAL

stop using this word, it does not mean anything. there isn't any potentiality. what can happen happens.

>>3606263

Ever since the Russian and Jewish autists ruined the game of chess, absolutely yes.
As for go, I don't fuck with chink shit.

>>3606313
Things that improve you as a person.
While video games may improve you as a person, none of them are superior to books that would achieve the same thing.

>>3606202
Same place everyone does.

>>3606307
>3. With the time spent on video games one could do any number of superior things.

With the time I spend reading, I could be masturbating or looking for a job. I don't even play video games, but there's almost always a better way of spending your time. Discussing your distaste of video games online isn't the best way to spend your time, but do you see me recommending you to do something different?

Books are bad because:

1. They are toys and thus childish.
2. Other media are much better at doing everything except being words, which is, as previously stated, the quality of a toy.
3. With the time spent on books one could do any number of superior things.

>>3606322
Most books are not toys.

>>3606319
I think this is a linguistic trick-room that repeats ad nauseum but...

what do you mean "improve as a person"

I'm basically just fractally looking at what you consider value as and you just keep moving it along but never answer it

>>3606327
Improve your knowledge, intelligence, physique, skills, etc.
If you aren't spending most of your time doing those things, you are living incorrectly. And how could you not?

>>3606324

Books are toys. They are objects of cognitive play.

My favorite books are The Stranger and Infinite Jest
My favorite games are Metal Gear Solid 2 and Shadow of the Colossus.

I probably have shit tastes in both arenas, but I like the think I play quality games and read quality literature.

>>3606324
Can't you give a retort other than "b-but subjectivity!"?

This thread just made me play a video game for the first time in weeks. Thanks guys.

>>3606331
Forgot pic

>>3606331
There are many games better at being games than those which you mentioned, but someone who isn't very passionate about games would likely have similar tastes to yours.

>>3606307
>Interactivity
>The quality of a toy

>>3606335

Likewise for the books, actually.

>>3606333
Think of what you could do instead of playing that game.

>>3606334
Sell all of those and use the profits to buy literature, healthy food, etc.

>>3606330
>They are objects of cognitive play.
Doesn't follow brah.
>>3606332
What do you think?

>>3606328
What's the point in knowing about history? Being fit enough to run 26 miles when you're a computer programmer that takes a bus to work? You've improved a skill, but you're not like more valuable or anything for doing it.

>>3606335

Really? Be specific re. MGS2

>>3606340
Neither set is bad though, and you'd really have to dedicate yourself to one medium or the other at the expense of other things to reach their greatest extents.

>>3606343
Alpha Centauri has more depth and takes more skill to play than MGS2, and is thus a better game.

>>3606341
Think of what you could do instead of reading that book.

You could throw out empty statements like that in response to anything, faggot.

>>3606347
Reading a book (a good one) is always better than playing any video game.
Can someone back me up here?

>>3606334
Lately though, with quality writing being in heavy decline in the video game industry, I've been reading and writing more than gaming. I only game probably once or twice in a month.

>>3606345
That's not how objectivity works, bro.

>>3606342

In what sense does it not follow? Just because reading does not involve frolicking about, it isn't play? This is nonsense. By any worthwhile definition of play, a book is play. You can spew forth all the blather you please about how you are improving yourself, but the only reason why anyone reads books is recreation.

>>3606251
>I play games less than an hour a day

Then you're not a serious gamer, and should not act as if your experience contradicts his point.

>>3606350
You really shouldn't play games with writing as your primary focus. That's extremely silly and ignores the strength of games, which is being games.

>>3606345
So I looked at it on wikipedia and it seems barely related to MGS2 in any way other than being SF and a video game. How is it better at doing what the creatord of MGS2 were going for than MGS2?

I would never play video games because it would take time from my day that could be spent reading. I could substitute my internet time for video games, but if I'm going to do that, once again, I might as well use that time for reading. I suppose the bottom line is I just don't give a shit about playing video games. It's expensive, it's headache inducing, and I can think of about a hundred things I'd rather be doing.

>>3606356
See, this guy has the right attitude. Games are utterly useless.

>>3606345
>>3606354
See, I'd disagree. I think games should be a medium of artistic expression. And for awhile they were achieving that point(Journey comes to mind as well), but as the industry becomes more business focused, they're losing that quality more and more. Hence why I hardly play anymore.

There has not been a single rebuttal of "video games are useless wastes of time and you would be better off spending your time elsewhere."
I consider the argument won.

>>3606358
so are books

>>3606362
Like 'shoot the head' and watch it explode?

>>3606359
So you don't like games that are focused primarily on deep, enjoyable game mechanics?

>>3606356
I would never read a book because it would take time away from my day that could be spent working out. I could substitute my internet time for video games, but if I'm going to do that, once again, I might as well use that time for working out. I suppose the bottom line is I just don't give a shit about reading books. It's expensive, it's headache inducing, and I can think of about a hundred things I'd rather be doing.

>>3606365
Are you fucking retarded? I won't dignify that with an argument.

Video Games cater to those who enjoy mechanical/spatial operations, competition/struggle, cognitive puzzles, and have an individualistic social strategy.

Since most of /lit/ is male, most of /lit/ likely enjoys video games.

video games are, at their best, derivative

this isn't a subjective opinion or a matter of me not liking something

video games can only take ideas from other media, they can't convey any ideas on their own

all the 'art' games /v/ tries to play off as sophisticated and insightful are just taken from a very childish understanding of some Eastern religious tropes

>>3606360
That's not a meaningful statement, though. You could fucking say that about anything.

>>3606362
Why can't a game have both? I think SotC and MGS2 are plenty enjoyable as games.
But they also have gripping stories and themes, which, for me, takes it up on a a more refined level of enjoyment.

>>3606372
You are forgetting the most important aspect of a video game: the fucking GAME.

>>3606367
I would never work out because it would take time away from my day that could be spent working. I could substitute my internet time for working out, but if I'm going to do that, once again, I might as well use that time for working. I suppose the bottom line is I just don't give a shit about working out. It's expensive, it's headache inducing, and I can think of about a hundred things I'd rather be doing.

>Muh protestant work ethic waaahh "improve" yourself for the benefit of your bosses

>>3606374
They can and should, but a game that is exceptional at being a game is more valuable than a game that is exceptional at being, well, a movie.
I'm not referring to MGS2 or SotC, of course.

>>3606372
>>3606372

>video games can only take ideas from other media, they can't convey any ideas on their own

You say this as if it's a logical axiom or something.

The sensation of "fun" from any non-social recreational activity is comparable to video games void of a sophisticated plot (mario, collectethons, etc)

>>3606378
I would never work because it would take time away from my day that could be spent meditating. I could substitute my internet time for working, but if I'm going to do that, once again, I might as well use that time for meditation. I suppose the bottom line is I just don't give a shit about working. It's expensive, it's headache inducing, and I can think of about a hundred things I'd rather be doing.

>>3606376
games are so mindless and boring they have to ban bots from doing it because simple scripts programmed to do repetitive motions are much better at the game than humans are

>>3606356
>>3606358
Nice samefag.

>>3606384
A computer can solve a puzzle much more easily than a human.
The human solves the puzzle because he enjoys it, not for the sake of solving it.

>>3606384
>high level rts
>mindless

I always find it amazing how the people who argue in favor of video games can't even for a moment consider that you can enjoy something which is just a time waster. Seems to me like a glaring red flag that there's too much emotional investment(and by extension too much time spent on them) to be able to form a proper analysis.

>>3606384
books are so mindless and boring they have to ban bots from reading them because simple scripts programmed to do repetitive motions are so much better at reading than humans are

>>3606388
its too fast paced to require actual thought, like speed chess. Its a game of apm not intelligence.

>>3606380
>a game that is exceptional at being a game is more valuable
But that's due to consumer demand having desires for playing mindless games--and since the industry is so young, has been completely overtaken by corporate entities, and games are so expensive to develop--the industry suffers.

Film and Literature has many more activists within their respective industries that work in their craft so they can present a vision. The video game industry is losing creative forces of that nature every goddamn day. Before games hit the mainstream and while after it first popped up in the early 80s, gaming was starting to shift towards a more artistic platform. It simply got too popular, too fast, and mainstream consumer demands more or less killed any chance of video games becoming anything more than entertainment.

Fucking shame, that.

>>3606395
>its too fast paced to require actual thought, like speed chess. Its a game of apm not intelligence.
LOL

>>3606391
>inb4 you can extrapolate from books in a way a computer can't

Which applies to games

>>3606390
We haven't spoken of that because we assume that it is a given. Stop that.

>>3606395
That's a bit of a misconception really. APM matters less to top players than implied + it's barely relevant to just about everyone below that

>>3606367

great post. didn't even swap out everything needed to make it make sense, completely disregarded the fact that reading is one of the least expensive hobbies you could have, and went with one of the few things that actually has a limit, meaning you can't and shouldn't work out like that, considering you have to give your muscles a break. really, good job.

these faggots from /v/ sure are fucking stupid.

>>3606398
Exceptional games are not mindless. Your premise is flawed in that you assume that all games are mindless.

>people think claiming subjectivity is a poor argument

>implying objective value

I thought /lit/ was smarter than this.

If a nigger could exist in an endless simulation of mining diamonds and raping people, why would he turn it down? Because you disagree with the way others receive pleasure? Do you seek to change them? Is anyone else your property? Who are you to discern what they ought to enjoy?

Nobody posted that 'let him rot' image, and just look at what happened.

>>3606352
Simply being able to wrangle in the word play in relation to an object doesn't make the object a "toy", or we'd all be watching Shakespeare at the Globe Toy, being told by Lacanians about our objet petit toys, and foreplay would be all about pleasuring a toy rather than using a toy for pleasure. It's got to be one of the dumbest non-sequiturs I've seen.

>>3606407
What is that image?

>>3606403
>Reading
>Inexpensive
Do you even read?

>>3606408
look at all those negative statements that don't actually convey anything of value

>>3606405
I don't though. And when I say mindless, I mean from a story and plot perspective. Obviously stuff like RTS and Strategy titles require a lot of cognition.

But stuff like your Call of Duties, and your Bulletstorms, and your Gears of Wars do not. And outside of that, they don't really emotionally or mentally engage the player either.

>>3606413
Mainstream everything is mindless in that way. If you take just a moment to look there are still good games being released.

>>3606410

Only if you are one of those germophobe pussies who can't check books out from the library.

>>3606415
>stop being so negative! It doesn't make me feel better!
Good. Try coming up with actual points in the future.

>>3606413
>reading books for the story/plot
Where do you think you are?

I've only started "hardcore reading" 2 or 3 months ago, but I'm still a really hardcore gamer. I hate people who claim they are gamers because they play Skyrim or CoD an hour a day

You aren't going to meet many people who enjoy both because for starters they tend to be time consuming, so generally there's only room to fully explore one or the other. Secondly most people who are serious about literature consider video games a waste of their time - and on the other end of the spectrum, serious game players have deluded themselves into thinking video games are superior to every other form of entertainment and art.

>>3606420
ow my sense of irony

>>3606422
You could read a whole lot more if you cut out the games.

I play competitive SSBM and read a fair amount, although probably less than the average /lit/izen.

>>3606240
>What killed pulp?
Pulp never really died, it just lives on in a much humbler form within the pages of playboys and similar magazines.

>>3606424
I take it you despise games?

>>3606027

Are at least 5 hours of gaming a day enough?

>>3606426

But I don't want to, what's the problem with that?

>>3606424
Or they just really like games.

>>3606417
They are, but they're rare. Games like the ones I enjoy are on the decline. I worry that with the way things are moving in the industry, they might end up disappearing forever. Hence why I play much less than I used to.
Big part of that probably has to do with growing up as well. I definitely played a lot of trash when I was younger.

>>3606421
Themes and philosophies as well. MGS2 has got that in spades. Great goddamn game.

>>3606410

>lol how do you read without going to barnes and noble and spending 300$ on the entire collection of your favorite fantasy series?

get out faggot

>>3606434
The problem is that video games are a waste of time and books are not.

>>3606078

>or Mass Effect

You're talking about one of the best sagas ever you know?

>>3606436
Can I get like, ten examples of games you consider trash including some which are generally not regarded as trash?

>>3606400
>we assume it is a given

You(or whoever is) wouldn't be going through so much trouble to prove games have more than passing semblance of value if you truly believed it was a given.

>>3606443
I just want to play my games leave me alone.

>>3606171

Books are also distractions, want to learn something? Then study

>>3606434
Nothing. You're on the /lit/ board and people are gonna shit on you for playing vidya over reading.

I say do whatever the hell you want. I wish I still enjoyed video games as much as I did, they were a big part of who I was when I was younger, and some are even heavy sources of inspiration for the novel I'm currently writing.

>>3606440

Why? Is the same thing

And I'm talking about real games, not that Cock of Duty crap

>>3606440
The problem is that books are a waste of time and games are not. ETC. Can we stop making these stupid posts?

>>3606451
What I said is true and what you said is not.
It's that simple, plebby.

>>3606453
What I said is true and what you said is not.
It's that simple, plebby.

>>3606448

Figured that, full of pretentious fags who think reading is better than anything else.
For these ignorant fucks somebody who does not study or work and just games all day is an useless moron, but someone who just reads is oh so fucking cool.
Is the same shit, you know?

It's threads like this that make me wish this board wasn't a part of 4chan. You know it's the only reason anyone is defending video games here. The majority of the userbase of 4chan is losers who are into anime or losers who are into video games. In most cases, it's both. And no board is safe from them and their shitty opinions.

>>3606429
>despise

No, but I do consider them about on par with tv sitcoms as far as artistic merit and entertainment value are concerned.

>>3606341
>Think of what you could do instead of playing that game.
Because the hours you waste here on 4chan every day are so fucking productive.

>>3606459
>entertainment value
That is certainly subjective, moreso than anything else in this thread.

>>3606453
If you are only capable of discussing like this then you aren't learning anything valuable from your books and you should get a new hobby.

>>3606457
You don't belong here. Seek greener pastures.

>>3606445
>leave me alone

You're more than welcome to leave the thread.

Expressing an opinion that video games are of low value does not stop you from indulging in them.

>>3606460
THIS

This thread is so fucking entertaining, I'd love to see this discussion irl

This thread has convinced me.
How do I grow out of video games? What's some good entry level literature?

>>3606142
Fuck Paradox. Their DLC policy is worse than EA/Activision.

>>3606005
I do both.

They are exclusive in their contents and stimuli, therefore making them perfect to enjoy all the possible spectrum.

>>3606459

Do you know shit about games? The crap you play in your phone, Call of pussy or FIFA are not the only games out there

This thread has convinced me.
How do I grow out of books? What's some good entry level video games?

>>3606442
The majority of whatever is releasing as of late. Lemme try and think of titles that are specifically enjoyed but I believe don't really do anything for the industry, and through their high sales, are in effect damaging the industry.

Final Fantasy XIII(and all subsequent releases)
Whatever the latest Call of Duty is.
Metal Gear Rising
Gears of War
Far Cry 3
Tomb Raider
Uncharted 3
Dead Space 3
Crysis 3
Any game that's a sequel to a once well-respected franchise that only exists due to it being a forced project by the publisher as a cash-grab.

>>3606460
/thread

>>3606478

Why don't you start by growing out of being a retard?

>>3606478
your brain has already been permanently morphed into broken thinking patterns, there's no way you can enjoy any kind of academic inquiry at this point

>>3606451

We can stop making these posts when you realize that objectivity exists and video games are on the shit end of it. You act like you're making some point by repeating every argument for reading like it works the same way for video games. It doesn't.

P1 "Here is this good thing, it's better than shitty things."

P2 "NO U, this shitty thing is actually the good thing, IMO, you should respect the opinions of people who like shitty things."

>>3606495
>Objectivity exists

Says who?

>>3606491

Only game I disagree with is Far Cry 3. Is a really good game, one of the few cases where the sequel is better than previous releases

>>3606491
Uncharted 3 is so good. U cray.

>>3606495
Except that you haven't actually argued the greater value of literature. You post your opinion without any support and then repeat it forever. Fucking moron.

>>3606488
>>3606494
Why? I'm scared now.

>>3606491
>metal gear rising
Why the hell?

>>3606479
There you go.
Games do have the capability to immerse and engage its entertained in a way that literature and film cannot.
Granted, it's not being utilized as it should, but the possibility is there.

The theme of 'Never Letting Go' in Shadow of the Colossus was unbelievably portrayed -through- playing the game and taking control of the character. It's never outright stated to the player, but if you take the time to think about the story, how you grabbed hold of these Colossi to murder them, and nearly brought about worldwide calamity to save the one you love; the game was pretty goddamn impressive and did something that a book can't do.

Now I don't think that makes games inherently better than literature, but it does give you a different experience within another medium. You get something you can't get anywhere else. Shame games like SotC are few and far between.

>>3606465
>subjective

There's that word again.

One day you'll learn how intellectually lazy of a copout that is. You may not come to any agreement with the person you're talking to, but at least you'll have a real debate and not 'muh feelings'.

>>3606519
Objectively tell us why books are superior then. Remember, it has to apply to every book and every video game ever created.

>>3606519
No, I mean some people really like puzzles and spatial-mechanical shit, which is more entertaining to them than other things.
I only use subjective when I really think that the thing being argued is subjective.

>>3606482
>do you know shit about games

Yes and I still came to this conclusion.

>>3606479
>>3606516

This.

Two different things, can't say one is better than the other.

>>3606503
Didn't expand on what U2 did, played it way too safe with the story.

It was the end of the trilogy and took the least amount of risks out of any title in the franchise. Series are supposed to push the boundaries of what they do as they move forward, not hold themselves back.

>>3606512
Get the fuck out. If I have to explain it to you, then you aren't worth talking to. I seriously dislike you as a human being.

>>3606457

Fucking oath cunt.
I wish all these weeaboo and vidya faggots would quit coming to /lit/ to try and find validation for their shitty taste in entertainment.

>>3606510
Please? I don't want to be an idiot.

>>3606527
I only played the demo but from what I played the gameplay was excellent.
I'm unaware of the things that make you hate it, I guess. I'm sorry, I just thought it was a good game without having played all of it. My mistake.

>>3606527

The problem with the videogame industry today, is that most companies only care about money, therefore they dumb down the games, making them accesible for a wider audience with a 6 second attention span.
The only game I can think of right now that's doing everything right is The Witcher series, TW1 was a great game, and TW2 was even better

>>3606527
I mean. It wasn't pushing the boundaries or anything, but it was still. An entirely pleasant experience. I don't regret buying it like I do AC: III.

>>3606507

Because it's a fucking nonissue. It's so blatantly obvious to anyone who isn't mentally retarded that just the notion of having to explain it to someone is fucking embarrassing. A meal cooked with fresh, healthy foods has more value than some processed trash you get from McDonalds. It's that simple.

>>3606536
So we agree that video games are better than books?

>>3606534
It's a fine game from a mechanics perspective.

It just takes one of(imo) gaming's most beautifully constructed, emotionally developed, and philosophically potent characters, and mutilates everything about him.

Somehow worse than MGS4 had already done.

I love Rising as a game, but as a Metal Gear, I couldn't get past the first two hours of it.

>>3606536
The nutritional value of food can be objectively stated. Please. Objectively state to us why books (remember, EVERY BOOK EVER) are better than video games (EVERY VIDEO GAME EVER)? I'm genuinely curious.

>>3606540
And sorry for raging out on you.

>>3606530
/lit/ come on help me.

>>3606536
It seems like all you have learned from books is how to go off on meaningless tangents and avoid forming coherent arguments.

>>3606540
As I understand, you must feel the exact same about Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

After all, it has Snake in it, retroactively ruining the Metal Gear universe.

Surely there can't be people who like playing video games? I understand if you're addicted to the repetition and fear the freed time you would have if you were to quit them, but you can't seriously enjoy spending hours of your day just pushing at buttons and making the screen flash like some kind of rat in a lab experiment. The only people who play video games are the ones without self-control; that's why they're always so fat, unclean, and unable to take up any basic responsibilities.

>>3606554
Also MGR is not a sequel.

>>3606537
>The problem with the videogame industry today, is that most companies only care about money, therefore they dumb down the games, making them accesible for a wider audience with a 6 second attention span.
Precisely. I think I stated as such earlier.
Here: >>3606398
It's not just the corporations that run the industry, its the consumer base as well. And vidya hitting the mainstream too early in its lifespan.

>>3606538
Oh fuck, I forgot about AC:3. Christ man... Christ. Biggest disappointment I've been dealt by this industry, by FAR.

>>3606555
That's like reducing books to "you can't seriously enjoy spending hours of your day just flipping paper and looking at ink".
I mean that sincerely.

>>3606536
Since when are you in charge of objectively defining this?

>>3606554
MGR is canon. SSBB is not.

>>3606557
Yes it is.

>mfw there are people arguing video games are on the same level or superior to books in /lit/

Why the fuck are you people here exactly? I feel like I'm in /v/.

>>3606563
> what's a spinoff

>>3606012
I'm sure you've played every game ever made and i trust your obviously non-biased conclusion.

>>>/v/

>>3606564
You also look like you belong in /v/ with your poor reading comprehension.

>>3606559
fucking Assassin's Creed

> we have a game that is about climbing historical architecture

> let's make a sequel that has much better architecture

> what did the previous games feature again? no architecture? sounds about right

>>3606561
But you can take some personal fulfillment from reading a book. After a book you can say, "I'm glad I read that, it really changed my perspective."

After a video game all you can say is, "I've sat in a chair mashing these buttons for the past 24 hours and I can't remember a thing I've done all day." It's literally just stimulating enough to grind you through for a few hours while you are essentially doing nothing at all.

>>3606574
Are you that easily swayed in your view on life by reading books, master trole 2013?

>>3606171
Games are as much as a waste of time as books are - none at all in my opinion. You can't learn from games as you can from books but you just get something different from games. An experience. No book has given me such chills I got while playing Shalebridge cradle level in Thief 3. Satisfaction I get from puzzle solving and exploration in Tomb Raider games is something I can't get from books.

>>3606574
But you can take some personal fulfillment from playing a video game. After a book you can say, "I'm glad I played that, it really changed my perspective."

After a book all you can say is, "I've sat in a chair turning pages for the past 24 hours and I can't remember a thing I've done all day." It's literally just stimulating enough to grind you through for a few hours while you are essentially doing nothing at all.

>>3606574
the amount of bias made my chest ache.

>>3606568
>implying he needs to

>>3606581
after a video game*

This is bar none the worst thread on /lit/ right now.

>>3606581
your replacements are just getting weaker and weaker as your argument crumbles in your hands

>>3606574
The personal fulfillment is "I'm glad I played that, it really challenged my abilities" or "I'm glad I played that, it was a really immersive experience", or something.

>>3606584
>Implying you don't need experience with something to make a relevant comment about it.
retard

>>3606592
You think video games are shit right?

>>3606592

Possibly of the year so far, really.

>>3606246
I really like games, but it is true that I'm addicted. I want to change it for addiction to books, but I can't seem to find motivation.

Video games? Come on, guys. When are you going to grow up? What are you going to do when you start dating?

>>3606598
this is what you get when /v/ermin start invading your boards

I don't think I've ever met or spoken to someone who loves both unicycles and books. I'm not sure why. I know people who unicycle and read, but not both seriously. You know, they read tons, but only unicycle on weekends. Or, they unicycle while juggling chainsaws, but have only read Brown and Grisham.

>>3606593
your original statements are just getting weaker and weaker as your argument crumbles in your hands.....oh wait you have no argument to begin with

>>3606601
Co-op videogames?

>>3606565
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d7BTtiAQuZ0
>0:40
Still canon. A proper spin-off would've put the game in an alternate universe completely. Rising doesn't do that.
But we're getting off topic and this isn't the place for this discussion. Also, you can go back to fucking yourself for defending this shitty fucking piece of shit excuse for a plot.

>>3606607
> A proper spin-off would've put the game in an alternate universe completely

It's possible that you have brain death.

> Also, you can go back to fucking yourself for defending this shitty fucking piece of shit excuse for a plot.

But I don't defend MGS2.

>>3606574
Did I already not mention MGS2 or SotC? I really feel I did.

I find it baffling that there are people here who can't find a single thing to like about games.

>>3606601
>Dating

I don't think I've ever met or spoken to someone who loves both banger racing and books. I'm not sure why. I know people who banger race and read, but not both seriously. You know, they read tons, but only drive track occasionally. Or, they race every week, but have only read Brown and Grisham.

>>3606559
You and me both, man. It was really like a slap in the face. I've never been so let down by a game in my entire life.

Is /v/ down?

>>3606635
It's a cross thread. It's got just as much reason to be on /lit/ as on /v/. Unless you've got anything relevant to add, fuck off.

>i'm better than you because I don't play video games
Whats it like to be cancer?
You'd be in the non-existant gas chambers if hitler was still around.

I find it amazing that people with such an intellectually stimulating hobby are so incapable of forming even the most basic arguments against video games. There are legitimate concerns with video games as well as things that video games do well. I have only seen two or three posts in the whole thread with well-balanced and well-informed opinions.

I don't think I've ever met or spoken to someone who loves both /lit/ tripfagging and books. I'm not sure why. I know people who tripfag and read, but not both seriously. You know, they read tons, but only lurk. Or, they tripfag shit threads everyday, but only read postmodernism.

>>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/ >>>/v/

>>3606641
meaning you and the other /v/ sperglords are giggling in a thread on /v/ while you pretend you're raiding us

the sad part is so many of you actually believe the things some people are spouting in this thread

i am a chef.lol

>>3606595
>implying you need an abundance of experience with gaming to form an opinion of it

Lets stop pretending there's something deep to gaming that he's missing. The vast majority of games are nothing more than variations of an objective-reward cycle, and they don't pretend to be anything else either.

>>3606651
> needing to raid

No, /lit/ is shit as it is.

"I am better than you because I read books" - the board.

>>3606658
Let's discuss pretentiousness in literature.

>>3606658
It's just the attitude /lit/ has, that playing video games at all for any reason is worse than the holocaust, that bothers me.

This sucks. I'm gonna go play some video games.

NOT! haha, can you imagine?

>>3606658
Lets stop pretending there's something deeper to reading that he's missing. The vast majority of books are nothing more than variations of letters and spaces, and they don't pretend to be anything else either.

>>3606651
Nobodies here who doesn't also read books.
Calm your tits granny and get that sand out of your vagina.
You're the one doing the raiding and shitposting itt.
You can hide threads you know.
You're just complaining for the sake of complaining.

>>3606661

"i'm overly defensive because i'm a time wasting, mouth-breathing manchild who still plays video games and i shouldn't have to change and grow up everyone else should just become accepting of me and my embarrassing obsession." - /v/, the poster

>>3606667
Playing computer games is for little children. Most of us have grown out of it. If you still like playing on you n64, fine, but don't expect to be taken seriously.

>>3606609
Its probably only faggots who've only ever played call of duty or other x-box bullshit thats just essentially propaganda for the military.
This thread almost convinces me that /lit/ is more autistic than /v/.

>>3606680
Reading books is for little children. Most of us have grown out of it. If you still like reading your Dr. Seuss, fine, but don't expect to be taken seriously.

>>3606641
This thread is actually much more relevant in /v/ than here, as it's much more pressing as to why /v/ doesn't read in contrast to why /lit/ doesn't play games.

>>3606678
>>3606680
>>3606683
This thread was actually kind of alright at its start. Complete shit now. Shittiest shit I've seen on /lit/.

How does /lit/ feel about strategic videogames like Starcraft or other RTS type games?

Also does /lit/ not believe in just relaxing? I like to read books when I want to expand my mind or learn things but is there anything wrong with just chilling out with your drug of choice and playing a mindless game or watching shitty tv after a long week?

>>3606687
I am actually quitting /lit/ after this thread

I now understand the sort of mentality most posters have here.

>>3606684
Most of /lit/ probably does play games, sometimes.
Here's a question: is reading genre fiction (well-written genre fiction) better or worse than playing video games?

>>3606678
You're not acting very grown up, broseph.
You should read that quote from CS lewis on fairy tales and growing up, because you're acting like a child by trying to act super grown up.
And how is enjoying your time and what you do with it a waste?
What do you do with your time thats so much better?
From this post I can tell your no fucking ghandhi.

>>3606695
Reading books is a way of life, not a hobby.

>>3606692
Mad that they don't like vidya?

>>3606684
I think it's pressing that /lit/ is too stupid, too pretentious, or too intellectually lazy to form actual arguments in support of the hobby that defines them.

>>3606694
That's not even my argument.

>>3606692
I'm gonna get back to writing. Wash this bad taste from my mouth.

>>3606694
The majority of the people defending both sides are fucking idiots.

>>3606699
What is?

>>3606698
All the more reason why you should be able to form an argument rather than flinging insults and a vague sense of superiority.

>>3606661
>I'm better than you because I read books

Only people who never read would actually be offended by that sentiment though. As people who do read(at least reads more than genre fiction) implicitly and explicitly understand that the greater levels of knowledge and understanding that comes from regular reading is a good thing for humans.

>quit playing with your mathematics, nerd!
>becomes a top broker on Wall Street

>quit reading those books, nerd!
>becomes an influential public intellectual, president consults him for top issues

>quit playing those video games, nerd!
>lives with his mother mooching off of social security benefits, eating chips and Mountain Dew from his floor

>>3606701
The "I read books for smart people therefore I am so much better than you" is a mentality of a twelve-year-old hipster offspring.

>>3606706
Dat Strawman

>>3606705
Rephrase your statement to be less pretentious, contain no true scotsmen and don't base it on such a strong assertion.

>>3606709
>hipster

there we have it, guys

he finally said it

we can all go home now

>>3606693
Well written genre fiction is better than video games.

>>3606692

if just one of you "gamer" scum stops coming to the board after this then i'd consider the thread a success. well done everyone.

>>3606714
Nice argument.

>>3606713
> waaaah

>>3606706
>quit reading those books, nerd!
>becomes a pseudointellectual who lives with his mother mooching off of social security benefits, eating cookies and earl grey from his floor

>>3606716
Hey, Joyce is so amazing.

everyone must read his book, whatever it is called, but I am so incredibly smart for having read the plot summary on wikipedia.

>>3606706
>quit reading those books, nerd!
>becomes a bum that lurks in the library

>quit playing those video games, nerd!
>makes millions of dollars in prize winnings at tournaments, hosts events for charities

>>3606706
If the people itt are the kinda people that the government consults with problems, than that might explain how shitty our government is.

>>3606695
>implying the upper crust of /lit/ is participating in this thread

Also I take it most of /lit/ takes it as self evident why reading is a good thing.

>>3606727
"Self-evident" isn't that different from "well, it just is" if no arguments are offered.

>>3606727
>>3606730
Everyone here thinks reading is a good thing. That isn't the argument.

this is hopeless

Does anyone really need someone to explain why Shakespeare is more valuable than any given video game? Than every video game that been released or will ever be released, collectively? And that is just a fragment of the world of literature. Just one man. And you want to know why video games are inferior to the whole cannon? All of our mythology, all of our histories, all of our culture; we owe it all to literature. What have video games done?

>>3606718
>nice argument

You didn't ask for one.

>>3606726
Shit.
'why' not how.

>>3606742
>everyone here

Don't speak for others, it weakens your argument.

>>3606755
It's an asinine, ridiculous assertion with no arguments to support it.

>>3606753
Shakespeare is awful though and a possible fraud.
He stuff has good themes, but the execution of them and prose is just awful.

>>3606753
The value of the past doesn't devalue the present. Video games inherited the same culture and historical background as books that are written today.

Wow. Just...Wow. I mean, this thread was the best derp-fest I've ever sat down and read.

So let's try and lay down some rules.

I. Video games are not Books.
What does this mean? It means they are completely different mediums. If I wandered in from /ic/ and started to spout on about how books mean nothing when you can LOOK at this art and experience it, the posters would still give you a cock-eyed look.
Again, they are different mediums. You don't experience a game like you would a book.
II. You can study Video Games like you would books
No really, you can. You can apply lit theory to a video game. Being that it's a visual medium, you can even apply film theory to it. Take a AAA game like Bioshock, and sit down with it. Play it. What is the setting like? What are the characters motivations? What kind of symbols and devices are being used? You -can- pull it apart. Perhaps when you do there isn't much to find, or that some games are far too abstract to pull apart. Sometimes you have literature that you can only experience, and there isn't much to work with. It happens.
III. Video Games can be vapid and terrible. So can books.
And finally,
IV. Like, holy shit, Video games properly have only existed for less than a hundred years. Get off the medium's dick for not having a James Joyce yet.
Despite what many think, there aren't just about 100 canon books in all of human literature. There are so many more books that exist that have not survived or have not been of quality, your library to draw from is so fucking deep it puts all the others to shame. There are so many books being written. So many that they'll probably Congratulations, your medium has existed for a great deal of humanity's history. Books have had SO much time to be refined and explore how they can be experienced. Other art forms like film and video games are blessed to have books because there's so much about communicating an experience that are universal.
Cont...

What about games who's function is tell a story?

Video games are a different medium through which a story can be told, just like cinema. Hey, there are trashy games with little value just like there are trashy books and trashy films with little value. It just so happens that the gaming industry is dominated by this trash - the medium of video games is very easily accessible and conforms much more comfortably to the average Joe's attention span limits and weak imagination and things like that, which means the masses have flocked to it, the markets cater to those masses, and there's also a lot of snobbery over video games which stop so-called intellectuals flocking to it and demanding sophisticated games... But that doesn't mean that the medium is incapable of being the platform for stories with sophisticated narratives, themes, etc. It's just that there's little market for it.

gaming offers a way to be excellent in a condensed time and space. it would take me 10k hours to be an expert in something like golf, while it would take me about 700 hours to become an expert at a particular video game. as you repeat the process of gaining expertise, patterns emerge. as i am an expert in one game, it's easier for me to become an expert at another. as i am an expert in one thing, it is easier for me to become an expert at any other.

>>3606730
This is true, but several times the argument about gaining knowledge and understandig has been brought up in regards to why literature is superior to video games and is been side stepped or dismissed.

>>3606762
>>3606762
That fraud accusation isn't held in high esteem with shakespeare scholars.

It was leveled at the bard like 200 years after his death by some pompous aristocrat who essentially said "Billy didn't have enough education to make those plays".

also wtf are you saying. it takes like 2 days worth of work to get with his lingo and then all you see is how fucking brilliant that dude was.

>>3606760
>one shallow medium is better than another shallow medium

I wouldn't call that asinine.

lol! toasting in another epic sunhock bread! archive quick!

Would you hand a 12 year old The Brothers Karamazov and expect him to appreciate it completely?

No.

So if I walked up to you and said "Well Shadow of the Colossus" or "Ico" are incredible experiences!" and make you play them when you don't know how games worked, of course you wouldn't see it.

If you've only read books, it's not /fair/ to expect you to understand video games. This is not calling readers stupid, it's just saying there's a language that games have and there is -some- learning curve to it. The more you experience something, the more you are capable of experiencing the nuances of the medium. The same applies to comic form.

If you don't sit down and learn how to experience, then of course you can't find value in it. If I made you read something in a language you didn't know, you wouldn't enjoy it at all because you wouldn't even understand what's happening.

>>3606765
you are ignoring the 'game' part.

>>3606780
How are videogames inherently a shallow medium? How is genre fiction? I call both assertions ridiculous.

>>3606798
I wish ludology would have gotten more attention

>>3606791
Thanks for bringing that up!

Because just like there are aspects of books that don't translate to other mediums, video games too have their own aspects that don't translate!

This means that things like gameplay have their own methods of analysis, and how the affect your experience of the game. Tetris feels different than Mr. Driller, even though they are both puzzlers.

The issue is that there isn't a lot of academic writing about analyzing gameplay, but it is growing.

Deleted because I repeated myself for some reason.

>>3606779
I'll have to go back to his stuff sometime soon then.
I actually haven't read anything of his since when I was in school and they forced me to read him against my will.

Most cancerous thread on /lit/ in months.

10/10

>>3606786
Your analogy doesn't completely hold up because games like shadow of the colossus are noteworthy and special largely because it didn't follow a 'traditional' game formula, it has little standalone value.

On the other hand I can read The Brothers karamazov or les
Miserables and deem them very good or great on their own. Their value isn't dependent on what they look like next to twilight.

>>3606819

See rule IV. and my follow up post. You've spent /years/ reading. Even as a child you were taught to read.

>>3606818

Why?

Also, >saging a thread that's auto-saging

>>3606753
Value is in the eye of the beholder, though.
And a lot of video games utilize old literate mythologies.

Shit, heres a game people of /lit/ can all enjoy.

http://greatgatsbygame.com/

>>3606819
I think you're misunderstanding the analogy. It's not a comparison between brothers k and twilight but between a 12 year old and a more experienced reader.

>>3606819
Sure it has standalone value. It's one of the best things to express the "you really should think about what your doing instead of just doing it" theme in my opinion.

>>3606819
>>3606791
Dammit, people with actual thoughts and arguments came back and my interest has been rekindled.

Stop being so closed-minded about things. You're arguing the pretentious belief that no other medium has the capability to present art, themes, or philosophies in an interesting and unique way because you believe books to be the end all be all of artistic expression. While I personally love books more than any other medium, I'm still able to realize that there are other art forms that provide new forms of experiences and expression.

Granted, standalone, video games haven't achieved the same level of groundbreaking themes and philosophies, but as a former anon described, it's a very goddamn new medium. Written word has been around for millenniums, man. Games have been around for thirty years.

But the value between the two can't really be compared all that much to begin with. The two mediums are wholly different and provide the creator with two totally different means of expression.

>>3606845
Didn't mean to respond to:
>>3606791

>>3606848
Even so, what about the 'game' part?

>>3606851
What about it, specifically?

>>3606793
>inherently

No one said that. Video games - or rather an interactive digital medium - could be much more than what it is, but it's not.

Stop mixing in potential with reality. Games are what they are because the people who make them are not aiming for anything more. If fiction was nothing but pulp and never attempted anything else then people would have equally disparaging things to say about literature.

>>3606852
It's important that a game is good at being a game, is it not?
You don't think that all games are mindless by their very nature, I hope.

>>3606856
So would you say that people who had an interest in fiction before it reached its potential were stupid?

>>3606862
No, I don't. And I get that games were developed primarily as a form of entertainment, and for awhile that's all I viewed them as. But when I played Metal Gear Solid 2, I realized there was a way to combine gameplay aspects with philosophical ideas and questions, and give the player an experience that no other medium can provide. MGS2 wasn't just potential, it was a success.

Using Raiden as an example of a controlled being in the Man vs. Machine debate was incredibly well executed. In the beginning of the title you are told to create fake dogtags for Raiden so he could continue on in the story; the idea being that you'd put your own name down on the tags he'd wear for the majority of the game, thus signifying you as the person who controls Raiden.

But as the story persists, you come to find that Raiden is(and has been) controlled by more or less everyone he has ever come in contact with since he was recruited as a child solider. His superiors, his government, the technology around him, and even his long-term girlfriend(also manufactured by this terrifyingly imposing government).

The overbearing theme of the story is control, and how its currently threatening to make itself known all across the globe. And while Raiden doesn't necessarily succeed at breaking the bonds that tie humanity down in a traditional feel good ending, he does come to the realization that he himself can break the bonds around him. This is beautifully signified by Raiden taking the dogtags he had worn for the entirety of the game(which symbolizes player control), and throws them away. Signifying that he would never allow himself to fall into the pitfalls of Machine over Man ever again.


Of course this was bent quite intensely by his reintroduction in MGS4, and absolutely shattered with Metal Gear Rising. But still, MGS2 as a standalone title, presented a theme and philosophy that was unique and gripping in a way never seen before.

>>3606903
THIS is how games should utilize their mechanics. They should blend them with their plots in a way that's so artistically potent that the mechanics and stories compliment each other in equal balance.

>>3606903
Quality entertainment is good too.

>>3606914
They both have their place. It's just the latter has taken over the former to a pretty horrifying degree.

Games like MGS2 are becoming more and more rare as time goes on. Last one I remember was Journey, and before that, Shadow of the Colossus. There's games that slightly emulate what MGS2 did, but nothing that really pushes the boundaries it set.

If you'd ask me of my honest opinion, I'd say video games are devolving.

>>3606923
Hence why I read more than I game.

>>3606923
Go play Pathologic and/or The Void. I hear those are artsy.

>>3606927
You must not do much for entertainment then. Which is a good, admirable trait.

>>3606941
I'm not completely against it. I've just grown past my obsession with it.
Entertainment is entertainment; it's fun and works as a great distraction. But if you ask me, people spend to much time trying to be constantly entertained and not enough time with themselves.

As I said, entertainment has it's place, but I don't think it should be at the forefront of the human condition. That's just asking for societal stagnation.

>>3606872
The problem here is that fiction has never been just pulp, since the conception of the written word(and before) people have been trying to express serious deeper qualities of the human experience through stories. All things considered pure escapist genre-fiction is a relatively new thing, and a bit of a regression.

>>3606964
>All things considered pure escapist genre-fiction is a relatively new thing, and a bit of a regression.
Goddamn, couldn't agree with that statement more if I tried.

This is what I view as the major issue with video games in the now. There hasn't been a title that pushed the medium's expressionist nature in too long. Lately it's been entertainment for entertainment's sake.
Looking forward to checking these out though: >>3606937

>>3606973

Final Fantasy did a good job right up until after X, gone down hill since.

>>3606964
You could say the same thing about video games. The differences that it's more difficult for video games to reach their full potential and that the method of expression is designed around interaction rather than a simple narrative.

>>3606973
Even genre fiction has themes and shit, give it that much credit.