/lit/ - Literature

hello?

>>3426824
No, not the least bit.

>>3426885

Why then do Western Muslims circlejerk over this argument?

>>3426824

I don't think there's a single book where scholars in the field haven't said "yes, but you miss the nuance in the translations".

Stupid argument is stupid.

Clearly Finnegan's Wake is the work of God.

>>3426898
Because they are religious?

Meh. It seems to me this is a good argument for Muhammed being "inspired", though this doesn't imply any kind of literal miraculous revelation, just some sort of spiritual and.or psychological "enlightenment".

Such an argument would only be evident to people well-versed in Classical Arabic and the development of Arabic language and literature

So why bring it up here?

>>3426974
But it doesn't make sense even then.

For two reasons:

1) Highly original works can be witnessed in any tradition.

2) The challenge is based on qualitative standards.

>>3426996
>But it doesn't make sense even then.

In terms of influence, it does. But that's beside the point. Sage

>Here, I think I've produced something that matches the Qu'ran

>Obviously THAT doesn't match the Qu'ran!

>Well what about this?

>Ha, nice try!

>Or this?

>Puh-leaze. You could never, ever produce something so great as the Qu'ran.


The argument is completely circular. By what standards do we measure "Arabic language," "prose," "poetry," and completely nebulous qualities like "content" and "rhetorical devices?"

>>3427006

What do you mean by influence?

>The development of an entirely new literary form is beyond the scope of the natural capacity of any human author, hence a Divine entity, Allah, is the only sufficient comprehensive explanation

pfffff

>>3427036
I like that argument. It implies that _all_ current literary forms are authored by God. Yes, even that 16 tome fantasy epic based on an RPG game is the word of God.

>>3427029
>What do you mean by influence?

It's the foundation of Arabic literature and written language; grammar and other aspects of literary Arabic were standardized based on Qur'anic usages, the entire case marking system was developed during the period of the Qur'an's proliferation in order to make the language easier for foreigners to master. The entire canon is further indebted to it stylistically and often thematically; its position is like that of the Bible or Homer or (for English) Shakespeare. So in terms of historical influence on language and literature, it wouldn't be impossible to imitate it. Some people scribe religious significance to this status, others do not.

>>3427070
>wouldn't be impossible to imitate it

*would be impossible to imitate it

>scribe

*ascribe

The argument is not sound but the literary merit of the Quran is a miracle in the secular sense.

>>3427070
But it's not a miracle.

A miracle is a suspension of natural laws by divine will.

You cannot call it a miracle, and the point out qualities that the Iliad, with its non-existing gods, has.

No. I speak Arabic and I've been having this argument with muslims for years (including my own parents). Each time I tell them there are flaws in the Quran, they tell me
>You are not a scholar, you don't know anything
>Who are you to doubt the words of Al Azhar professors and theologists?
if the Quran is a universal literary miracle then shouldn't anyone be awestruck after reading it? (provided they speak Arabic)

>>3427089
Where are you from??

>>3427091
Morocco

>>3427095
And you don't find the Quran to be beautiful despite the flaws? Literary merit is scarcely diminished by factual inaccuracy.

>>3427086

>But it's not a miracle. A miracle is a suspension of natural laws by divine will.

Take that up with the author of the page. I'm not defending his argument.

>You cannot call it a miracle, and the point out qualities that the Iliad, with its non-existing gods, has.

Don't know what you're saying here but I didn't mean to imply that the Iliad or whatever else was a direct parallel.

It means nothing because the whole "beauty" argument is based on subjective opinions of how it is interpreted, regardless of whether it is more beautiful in Arabic or not.

>>3427100
Some parts are very poetic and everything but as a whole, it's not very impressive. Some souras are extremely repetitive and tedious. I think the mere fact that someone can find it flawed is proof it is NOT a miracle.

>>3427089
>Each time I tell them there are flaws
>flaws

By whose judgment?

>>3427118
Not that guy. But why the fuck does it matter? By SOMEONE'S. A work of literature being flawed is a subjective claim.

>>3427129
>Not that guy. But why the fuck does it matter? By SOMEONE'S. A work of literature being flawed is a subjective claim.

Right. So this entire discussion is pointless.

>>3427129
the death of the author and the death of God converge!

>>3427132
welcome to interpretive theology

bump

God, I hate such explicit dogmatism.

Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Donne were divinely inspired. They've met an English analog to the challenge, there's is the inimitable word of God.

>>3427190
theirs

The Key (الفاتحة) chapter consists of 7 verses, 29 words and 139 letters as shown here:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الحمد لله رب العلمين
الرحمن الرحيم
ملك يوم الدين
إياك نعبد وإياك نستعين
اهدنا الصرط المستقيم
صرط الذين أنعمت عليهم غير المغضوب عليهم ولا الضالين

Not only 7, 29, and 139 are prime numbers but their digit sums (7=7, 2+9=11 and 1+3+9=13) are also primes and the sum of these digit sums (7+11+13=31) is yet another prime.

What’s more, joining these prime numbers left-to-right (729139) and right-to-left (139297) also produces primes.

>>3427114
Arabic speaker here. I think it takes a lot more than being a native speaker to appreciate it. It requires years of literary study and historical background.

Just as most english speakers can't appreciate shakespeare.

>>3427217
Mans affinity for meaningless number games are astonishing.

>>3427217
Why did you stop at 31?
>3+1
>A prime number
See? I can do that too

>>3427217
Prime numbers are magic.

Only The Bible Codes are legitimate.

>>3426824
>Is the linguistic miracle of the Quran argument sound?

Nah, I wouldn't touch the Koran it's full of mudslime shit, fucking sand nigger.

>>3427217
I don't have any sources on this, but in muslim exorcisms they do this thing where they chant Qu'ran verses and something in the rhythms of the chanting is what makes it work, like in hypnosis where there are some sort of hypnotic rhythms that put people into a state of trance. Is this mathematical unity part of what makes that effective?

>>3427217

Wow, so Allah prefers the decimal system where the digit sum thing works? Why not the binary system? the tertiary system? the hexadecimal system?

In the hexadecimal system 7, 29, and 139 are respectively represented as 7, 1D, and 8B.

7 = 7 prime, 1 + D = E (14 in the decimal system, not prime), 8 + B = 13 (19 in the decimal system, prime).

71D8B is 466315 = 5×93263 in the decimal system, not prime.

B8D17 is 757015 = 5×7×43×503 in the decimal system, certainly not a prime number.

C'mon, Muslims, you can do better than numerology.

>>3427271

> Muslim exorcisms
> exorcisms

Seriously?

>>3427352
Just because you don't believe in literal demons doesn't mean that people don't suffer from psychotic episodes and cannot be treated or cured via psychosomatic means, such as inducing trance.

>>3427348
Haha I love you, anon!

>>3427364

> Just because you don't believe in literal demons doesn't mean that people don't suffer from psychotic episodes and cannot be treated or cured via psychosomatic means, such as inducing trance.

I want you to read what you wrote out loud slowly.

>>3427271

Not that guy, but all proper Qur'anic recitation is done according to certain rhythms. I don't know enough about it to speculate on their mathematical significance though

Rhythmic chanting and movement is also used in Sufi gatherings to induce a state of ecstasy and ego death.

Most Islamic numerology focuses on the number values of different Arabic letters and how they relate and add up, but it's unfortunately one of those sciences that has become more obscure over time and few resources exist on it in English.

>>3427380
I just did. Your point was?

>>3427348
>C'mon, Muslims

>One poster is suddenly 'Muslims'

Infidel pls

>>3427369

Anon is an ex-Muslim mathematician whose native tongue is Arabic.

Seriously, the only reason those arguments are very popular is that they are not familiar with the language (Arabic) and when most of them learn it they do through Arabic schools / Islamic centers where the teachers are simpletons / naive immigrants who reiterate this shit.

Western Muslims who copy-paste this shit should take it to the linguistics and philosophy department at a reputable university (Cambridge, Oxford, MIT, etc.) to be told those arguments are full of crap.

>>3427382

They are read according to certain MUSICAL SCALES: Arabic Maqamat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabimaqam

The reciters are practically professional singers, they professionally choose scales that are suitable for the content (e.g. the hijaz maqam for warnings because it sounds sad).

Listen to this to know how those maqams sound like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPH607oZo

Now listen to this and notice how the guy reads one part and the girl replies by reciting the same part to another scale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUd7UQjdE

Listen to this short where a stoned guys makes fun of famous Quran reciters by immitating their style with famous Egyptian songs (wait till 0:40 for it to start):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0olY5PFRM

And finally listen to this English song to know how those maqamat could be used with languages other than Arabic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAV-17Bjs

Western Muslims know nothing about the Arabic culture and are impressed by what the ignorant imams tell them.

I doubt arab vocabulary even has some complexity above: 'rape', 'pillage', 'murder', 'allah', 'jihad', 'virgin', and the modern acquisition, 'bomb'.

>>3427423
>Western Muslims know nothing about the Arabic culture and are impressed by what the ignorant imams tell them.

lel. I hope this isn't a reference to me. I'm an American IR student focusing on the Middle East; I don't have an imam.

I don't know why you're so desperately insisting that your former religion is fraudulent or whatever... why does it still concern you at all?

انا مطلع على ثقافتك وتاريخك والآداب العربية الخ الخ ... وكنت طالبا في الشرق الاوسط لوقت قصير. لماذا انت غاضب ؟

>>3427425

so fahnny joke

>>3427505
I wasn't joking, arab is amongst the lowest possible forms of a man

even african savages are better than arab cockroaches

>>3427519

Boy, do I have a >>>/pol/ for you.

>>3427505

Who said anything about anger?

And having been exposed to my culture, history, literature (and studying in the ME for a short while) you should have been exposed to things like maqamat, no?

>>3427519

It's the culture.

>>3427572
>And having been exposed to my culture, history, literature (and studying in the ME for a short while) you should have been exposed to things like maqamat, no?

Sure. But I'm not a student of music or tajweed.

>>3427505

It still concerns me because I still have to tolerate Muslim supremacists rubbing their shit in my face on a regular basis.

>>3427572
>Who said anything about anger?

You seemed a bit upset

>>3427576

O.K. My claim was simple: There are many things about the Islamic faith that impress some Westerners enough to convert and those things are not that impressive or unique in the Arabic culture. The uniqueness of the style of the recitation of the Quran is one of them as it is based on Arabic music theory.

>>3427579

Have you tried being less confrontational?

>>3427593

Mmm, they do manage to get on my nerve and get me heated up. I try to stop getting involved but it is hard to hold my horses when I see some smug waving his theocratic penis around.

>>3427595

OK, I understand. I can tell you that of the Western converts to Islam that I've talked to (admittedly few), none of them mentioned anything superficial or aesthetic as a reason they changed religions.

>>3427613

> none of them mentioned anything superficial or aesthetic as a reason they changed religions.

Cf. OP's link.

>>3427593

Tell you what? You do have a point, though I left Islam I haven't still moved on.

What do you think I should do?

Absolutely not.

Of course they think the Qu'ran is the best thing ever written. They are taught from an early age to revere it.
It's like seeing a crowned King in his regal clothes surrounded by his guards. Of course it gives you the impression of divinity, you've been conditioned to see this display as divine. Put that same guy in rags and have him sweeping streets and see how divine his face looks.