/lit/ - Literature

You don't have to, but voluntary poverty is a rigorous life that may lead to madness or death from any number of circumstances.

having a job makes you feel like less of a shit bag and can help your self esteem.

>>3416558
the point of a job is getting paid.
if you don't feel this need,probably is because someone is supporting you in a way or another.

>>3416570
Only because of social pressure. I.e. because everyone else seems to blindly accept that having a job is the most important thing in the world.

>>3416585
I am currently a dependent but I haven't been in the past. I'm getting back out again.I feel the need strongly to support myself and I feel the uselessness of what I have to do, to support myself, the work. Wasting my life to earn wages to feed myself and buy more shit?

>>3416606
you just sound depressed

people get jobs in what they find interesting and what makes them happy.

some people find happiness in being financially secure, and happy.

those who either go for the money, or dont see the value in work are the tedious slaves to idleness and society.

You know you can make money on the internet for very little effort, lol...

Welcome to the slave society
Remember, you're here forever (unless you choose death, which as it turns out is outlawed.)

>>3416606

Yes, it's called survival. It's what everyone who wants to live has to do in one way or another. If you don't like it, kill yourself.

most work that people do is ultimately of no value to society whatsoever

>>3416613
how?

Society isnt based on jobs and most (80% if I remember right) manual jobs are just there so you have something to do with your time. Besides working for our capitalist masters, given the right job, you still can make a little difference and help people, which doesnt sound half as bad, dont you think?

>>3416585
Money shouldnt be that much of an issue if you live in the first world and dont need a house, two cars and traveling in 7 star hotels every week.

>>3416570
This too. Jobs are an extreme simple way to boost your "social rank" and self esteem.

>>3416620
> survival==life
> work==survival
> life==work
Capitalism raised another plump little piggy

>>3416630
create tons of ad-strewn websites that people have to click through to buy useless shit

eh. necessary evil. it does provide structure to one's daily life. that helps prevent the chaos from overtaking your spirit.

but yeah. welcome to the world where the dollar sign is the almightly common denominator. you will play by the rules or you will suffer. and the hole you dig for yourself will only be harder to crawl out of the longer you delay in taking my advice.

>one of us! one of us! one of us!

work to live vs live to work

>>3416642
the animal works to gather food
that food sustains him.
he can now be happy.
but he'll have to work again to get more food.

you believe life should be enrichment and happiness, and work shouldnt rank high on this.
however, the animal spends a majority of its time working.

so youre the plump little pig of complacency that capitalism made.

http://youtu.be/idCFV0KF4uo

>>3416643
That's about half of what I do. I had a network of autoblogs pimping Amazon shit.

Going to create some blogspot spammerroos once I feel some motivation.

>>3416674
elaborate

>>3416663
>does not understand the function of work in contemporary society

>>3416663

HAHA you dumb fuck the animal doesn't "work," its entire life is ENRICHMENT AND HAPPINESS, WHAT COULD BE MORE FUCKING ENRICHING AND HAPPY THAN DOING NOTHING BUT ATTENDING TO YOUR OWN NEEDS ALL DAY. WHAT COULD BE MORE FREE. YOU DUMB FUCK.

>>3416663
>the animal spends a majority of its time working
> work is what makes you happy

It's worse than I thought! Anon may indeed be a Rand-bot

>>3416684
>>3416679

"you dont live like me. you wrong and bad"

A "respectable job" in /lit/ terms is "solid gold" in actuality.

Smart people are more concerned with fulfillment and prestige, so much so that these are must haves. The money and actual survivability of a job vary, but any job that doesnt fulfill or offer prestige is a job a smart person doesnt want.

The problem is that these jobs are really hard to get. You really got to spend time in the game to understand not only what is out there, but also what would bring you the most fulfillment.

I always see people in liberal arts programs always suggest that they will fall back on teaching if their dreams don't work out. But teaching (especially at the university level) is a prestige job in and of itself! They don't give PhD's to just anyone, and the likelihood of getting a really good associate professorship that isnt in Bum fuck Alabama is even slimmer.

There are awesome jobs out there besides entertainment and university. you just gotta find em.

>>3416679

Anyone with a job is attending to their own needs.

>>3416688

I'M
FUCKING
DYING

>>3416663
Fun fact, man spent fewer hours working in hunter/gathering times because they only hunted/gathered when they needed food. They spent the rest of the time socializing and sleeping and whatnot.

Agriculture allowed those in charge to never participate in the work, while the rest worked more and more. This is why the wealthy enjoy leisure and the poor must enjoy work.

>>3416695
not him but wtf man...i work because i dont liek to sit around and im happy...

The only thing that ticks me off about working are the niggers who buy booze and lottery tickets from my money, when they are perfectly capable of working. That's one of the big things that is hurting America but nobody talks about it. So many people are on welfare that really don't need to be.

It is a part of being a part of society. What else do you need?

There are many people who can eat and don't work, and many who work and can barely survive so it ain't obviously for food and roof.

I dont really think you can get a straight answer op, simply cause that question should not arise; if one asks that question the only answer is to check the whole thing and let the feeling of the necessity (of work in this case) come.

>>3416703
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzsovNvII

>>3416703
Its exactly the other way around. Many people are working but their work could be done much better with machines.
Not working was always the goal of high society and instead of focusing on that, we try to actually get jobs.

>>3416701

No you work because you don't have anything interesting in your wretched life to sustain you. Hence why all slaves eventually convince themselves they enjoy being slaves.

>>3416701
I think there is a miscommunication. By work he means a "job", by work you seem to mean activities. We all like to be active, and it's nice to be paid for it, but most labor (jobs) are not what people would do if they had time off.

>>3416672
implying this is viable

>>3416712
no, i work. i like to set goals and accomplish goals during the day. it makes me feel like my days are enriched. i really enjoy it. my goals focus around where i work...

>>3416703
It's not your money. You are paying for less than what you receive from the government (see: national deficit). In short, you owe uncle sam more than what he asks for.

If anything said niggers are spending the money of future generations, but meh

>>3416723
One can have and set goals outside of employment. One can feel fulfilled without a paycheck...

>>3416642
>>3416679
>>3416684

Yawn. Lazy, over-privileged college kids with their bullshit, naive idealism wrought by sheltered upbringings with everything they could ever want handed to them on a silver platter.

>>3416731
This is madness, how can something be more important than to work?!!

Working for someone else and making them richer. lel stay plebian.

>>3416586
You are right, everyone should stop working. Fck jobs yolo.

>>3416716
>>3416703
>>3416663

since when does middle school let out this early?

'Cause capitalism.

But even a socialist paradise requires some labour to function. Ideally our society would require less work.

inb4 Amerifats see how much free time eurofags have for the same standard of living

>>3416745
snow day bro

The urgency in the importance of getting work is so you can retire early.

Best bet: Work until you lose your mind, then apply for disability.

>>3416755
>same standard of living
Nope, better.

>>3416558
It's a more abstract and complex way of getting food and shelter, basically. Which is also what makes it seem absurd and pointless, because the fruit of your labour seems distant to your actual labour compared to an old fashioned hunter, farmer of craftsman.

Luckily there have always been loopholes to get out of it though and today they are more available and less demanding than ever. There have always been those who assumed some other role that doesn't directly relate to the gathering of resources and the like. They often bordered on insanity and being outcast, but managed to carve a niche for themselves into an otherwise pragmatic society. It's the adaptation of the unadaptable. First there were shamans, then priests and monks and now you can simply go on disability. The development of society has made the masses or at least their leaders feel obliged to take care of the useless people and we profit of that now. The strange and unadapted can now plead insanity, rather than supernatural powers or having the ear of the Gods. We now receive our alms out of pity and humanistic ideals. Still, the idlers of old weren't merely respected, they were also feared for their alien disposition. And the donations of society always had an element of ransom to it. Today it's much the same, the crazies are bought off as much as provided for. All in all, everyone seems to benefit.

To opt out you'll have to perform some sort of token act, whether that is beating a drum, mumbling Latin or crying to a shrink. But I don't think that's too much too ask.

Capitalist pig 4 life.

I bathe in the tears of whiny liberal potheads.

>>3416715
That's pretty much what we did. Corporations sent jobs overseas to be done by people (who they exploit like machines) for much less money paid. People here had no jobs, less money to spend, economy collapsed, etc. If machines were to do all the jobs for us and nobody had to work it would be disastrous.

>>3416726
>goverment doesn't know how to handle taxes
>needs more and more taxes

Sound logic indeed.

>>3416745
>implying middle schoolers are on /lit/
if anything they get on /v/ why the fuck would a middle schooler go on /lit/ the most boring board on 4chan

The importance of getting a job is showing to others, but most importantly to yourself, that you have sufficient will to survive and thrive in this world that you are capable of identifying what is necessary to accomplish this, and then doing it.

A thousand years ago that meant being a good farmer. A long time ago it meant being a good hunter. Now it means making yourself economically useful. There have always been outs and loopholes and gradations of difficulty to better/more rewarding occupations, but "fuck it man what's the point :/ I should just get crapped out of a cooter and immediately be set for life" has never been a viable strategy.

>>3416775
*among

>>3416766
Its really that common against americans, not to know what "liberal" fucking means?

>>3416768
>If machines were to do all the jobs for us and nobody had to work it would be disastrous.
Yes, thats what we have now thanks to a society based on some idiotic idea that paper >>>

With work done by machines, the whole "we have to work to survive" idea crashes. So given that, there is no point in working, unless you do something really special.

>>3416771
>making yourself economically useful

pffpffhahahahahahahah

>>3416736
Have fun on your deathbed thinking about all that cubical time. Sounds better than slightly adjusting the system to afford people more free time.

As they say, it is easier to imagine the end of the world itself than the slightest change in capitalism. Stay prol

>>3416775
>Americans knowing definitions
Nope! American here, everyone things socialism, fascism, and communism are the same thing. Frustrating to discuss politics here.

In England the minimum wage is £6.15

If an individual were lucky enough to snag a job, full time, 40 hours per week, for minimum wage they would earn £246 per week.

After rent and bills there is nothing left. And minimum wage jobs are not enjoyable, they are an endless grind. So people make themselves miserable to survive.

"Work is the meat of life, pleasure the dessert."

>>3416796
There are better ways, brother.

>>3416796
England is one of the best places for opportunity - why the fuck would you even go for minimum wage? unless you're polish or indian

>>3416800
It's just a shame no one does real work any more

>>3416665
This is pretty much what capitalism promises. Give someone the majority of your time, and then you can enjoy the little time you have a little more than you ordinarily would. Of course, this promise is now falling apart, as most jobs now barely even sustain an individual.

>>3416775

liberal - annoying college aged white douche. smokes marijuana and has a useless art degree.

>>3416810
Exactly, and everything that isnt far right, is socialism. Come back when you finished high school.

>>3416768
>goverment doesn't know how to handle taxes
Never said "needs more taxes". I am saying you pay for less than what you get, and more generally, once you pay it's not yours anymore. OR: You are paying for what you have received, foreign debt paid for "niggers".

OP come move to alaska with me and we'll live off the land

>>3416765
;_; stop rubbing it in our face. We're trying to support the third-world southerners.

>>3416796
In the US we can't even survive on minimum wage for rent and bills. With the cost of living the way it is we should be making $20 an hour to live normal lives.

>>3416815

>i'm a filthy european and don't understand the concept of words being taken out of context and used to a completely different purpose for comic effect despite the fact that i'm on a website where it happens all the time but i'll act all serious and generalize all americans based on a post from some troll because i'm a stupid, greasy yuropoor.

The importance of a job is to support a family. Liking the job or not shouldn't matter. A real man will make any sacrifice for the good of his wife and children. If you don't have a family to support then don't work. Do whatever you want to do with your spare time and there won't be any real consequences.

>>3416837
Because I generalized.
Obviously there are non retarded Americans but they sadly get drowned in the mass of idiots, which while not being an unique phenomenon, seems rather extreme on the other side of the pound.

Sarcasm on the Internet missed the point often enough, given the attitude here, expecting anything better is pretty optimistic.

>>3416833
Let's not forget that the UK min wage includes comprehensive health care, something reserved for top wage earners in the US.

>>3416845
the problem with that thinking is the things /lit/ want to do involve buying things which you can't do with no money. also i doubt anyone here wants to live their life traveling around the world doing odd jobs here and there and sleeping over in someone elses house.

>>3416853
>also i doubt anyone here wants to live their life traveling around the world doing odd jobs here and there and sleeping over in someone elses house.
I want to do something very similar to that. At least, move and get a new job every 5 years or so.

>>3416853

>also i doubt anyone here wants to live their life traveling around the world doing odd jobs here and there and sleeping over in someone elses house.

id be cool with doing this if it wasn't dead fucking certain that i'd end up as a total hobo

>>3416858
>>3416861
The world is your oyster, anon

>>3416870
As long as they keep a gun with them. Never travel the world without weaponry.

>>3416845
Ha, I can't believe that kind of thinking used to prevail. What noble savages.

>>3416845
whipped

>>3416852
growing up in the UK, I just assumed everyone in the world got some sort of free healthcare. fucking disgusting how the US works

>>3416853
>i doubt anyone here wants to live their life traveling around the world doing odd jobs here and there and sleeping over in someone elses house.

That actually sounds wonderful, but you left out all the parts about going hungry for days sleeping outside in winter, and the constant fear and real probability of being mugged/beaten/raped/killed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwDTiVSJ0

Because money allows you to have vastly more experiences than poverty.

Pic related

>>3416902
What really happens is you get taken into a network of travelers and become either an alcoholic or a junkie.

>>3416926

Money also allows you to not work, which means you have lots of time to do whatever you want. Isn't that lovely?

Unfortunately, for those with very little money, they will mostly remain in their financial bubble until they die, working to survive, exhausted in the little spare time they have, and with no money for any fun or luxuries. Isn't that tragic?

>>3416926
sheltered neckbeard detected.

enjoying your videogame/cartoon experiences?

>>3416945

>Poorfag detected

Bottom of the barrel breeding contempt?

>>3416886
It doesn't work like that. A gun can get you killed, no one will ever trust you, you'll never be able to move properly and you'll be much more paranoid. One should definitely not travel the world with any sort of gun. You carry a knife just in case. It's also less dangerous than people think for things like this, if you have very little and only what you carry, burglars respect you much more, they won't be after you. Sure you have to be smart and talk with the right people, but you should be more concerned with your next meal and where you'll sleep than things like that. I speak from experience.

>>3416558
I honestly don't see what the alternative to getting a job is. Is it subsistence farming? You know that you can work far less and live far better with even a shitty job. Is it going on some form of welfare? I guess this is an acceptable way for some people to live, but you can probably get a real job and live better than welfare will provide. Also, who wants to live with the shame of being a drain on society?

>>3416642
Democratic socialism raised another entitled little brat.

> Get a job
> Get Money
> Money gives you the chance to live your life the way you want to
I don't have a problem with that

>>3417001
>Also, who wants to live with the shame of being a drain on society?
>implying not working is relevant
>implying rich people have problems with it

>>3417031
depends on what one wants though

>>3416775
Is it really that hard for europeans to understand liberal means something else in America.

>>3416558

The world doesn't owe you a fucking living, jesus christ. Work has been the existential condition of virtually every human that has ever walked the earth.

>>3417052
Recommend any good books on labor history, bro?

>>3417052

>labor
>an existential decision

>>3416795
>socialism, fascism, and communism are the same thing.
you have to admit that their practical consequences are basically the same

>>3417046

>Implying being an investment capitalists isn't one of the most useful jobs to society as a whole.

wahhhhhhh the rich

>>3416775
>Its really that common against americans, not to know what "liberal" fucking means?
Nope, which is especially ironic given that the USA was founded on liberal principles.

>>3417059
existential condition

>>3417001
Farming seems like a shit deal to me. Other than that there's being self-employed, crime and begging, mooching and collecting welfare. That's roughly it I guess, apart from hunting and gathering. I don't see why people with jobs "live better" in general. They sacrifice a large part of their lives to other people's goals just to make more money to pay for some luxuries. Also, why would you be ashamed?

>>3417072
Liberal has multiple meanings. When american say liberal they mean social liberal.

This isn't hard to understand.

>>3417065

Same goes for democracy though really.

>>3417054

Read E.P. Thompson's "The Making of the English Working class."

Also check out: "The Fall of the House of Labor" by David Montgomery and "Stayin' Alive: The 1970s and the Last Days of the WOrking Class" by Jefferson Cowie.

ill be able to live off the interest of my familys wealth all my life. ill never have to leave university or worry about a job. get to my level.

>>3417065
Theories are varied, even the third position has nationalist anarchism.

>>3417092
This could be a good thing, but you'll never know the humility of delivering pizzas or cleaning toilets. Both have shown me that I'm not a special little snowflake and that education is extremely important.

>>3417104
important for what? surviving?
all i study, i study out of interest.

>>3417108

Important as in I don't have to deliver pizzas and clean toilets anymore.

>>3417108
and lol only realized the homonymia after i had clicked submit.

>>3417111
so what do you do for a living?

>>3417118

poor academic who still delivers pizzas...fuck

>tfw work refusal is the new nihilism on /lit/

>>3417124
easy to say this from my point of view, but i think id prefer my current academic career over wealth if i ever had to make that chocie.

>>3417133

What kind of academic are you? PhD student, tenured, tenure track, adjunct?

I spend my life maintaining the infrastructure that replaces labour and thus the incomes of others. Does that make me a bad person?

(I'm a Computer Systems Engineer.)

>>3417021
I would be thrilled to live under democratic socialism. Sadly, I live in America.

>>3417083
it's because they are all different variation of command economies. Anarchism is the only way to true freedom.

>>3417093
>nationalist anarchism
isn't this a contradiction?

>YFW college grads can't understand the concept of enjoying work

If you have no control over your perception life WILL kick the shit shit of you. Repeatedly. Get it together before you're 30.

>>3417081
>Liberal has multiple meanings. When american say liberal they mean social liberal.

>This isn't hard to understand.

The problem is: It is hard to understand since the term liberal, socialist, fascist, communist, conservative, etc. is clouded in ambiguity and confusion which leads to stupidity and ignorance. People want freedom, but they want national security. People want to get rid of immigrants, but they want free unregulated markets, etc.

The lines blur and people can't make a distinction. It's like the King James Bible in some respects.

Even if they do have multiple distinct meanings, it doesn't mean people will know the difference. They tend to put it under the same term. Like how Marxism, communism and socialism are used interchangeably.

>>3417149

I'd both agree and disagree with that, freedom is difficult to quantify on any large scale. It's also not necessarily the primary concern in social organization.

>>3417138
postdoc fellow

>>3417075
>Also, why would you be ashamed?
would you be ashamed to make a living through crime? If so then would you still be ashamed if someone else stole for you?

>>3417166
jelly

If I were you, I'd just milk that rich thing you have going and stay a fellow until you retire at 40.

>>3417161
this is why I refuse to have political discussions with people who don't define their terms. All of these ideologies have confused and contradictory popular understandings.

>>3417157
>If you have no control over your perception

That's very telling, because people who say all work is enjoyable are clearly delusional.

Also, to clarify, it's not all work that is the problem. A man could see meaning in working directly for the food he eats, but to go to a factory and put things in boxes for 8 hours a day is meaningless. Capitalism has created jobs that do nothing but make money and work.

>>3417174

Definitions aren't important, so long as the tribe's identity is implied that's enough for ridiculous arguments.

>>3417104
odd, my shitty jobs showed me that education was useless. I decided to drop out of college and start a local business (it's a cafe/bagel shop)

>>3417172
thats the plan. still havent figured out if i even want to teach...

>>3417176

You're delusional if you say it's not. The entirety of society is based on a delusion, pretty much all of economics is. You chose a delusional identity - that's a good thing. Stop choosing an angsty one and start enjoying things that aren't really optional.

>>3417184
Oh man, living the dream right there. I'm not even joking.

Are they tasty bagels?

>>3417168
Nope.
Also, you're free to not pay taxes. (Leave the country)

>>3417184
Can you hook me up with a job? I'm serious.

>>3416665
dat manc accent

>>3417179
you just described /pol/ perfectly

>>3416665
dat doncaster accent

>>3417188
Oh my well I'm going to go believe in God and post and stuff cause you convinced me it its better to live in delusion than attempt to improve society.

>>3417176
>to go to a factory and put things in boxes for 8 hours a day is meaningless
how so? They are goods that have value to people and you are helping to get them to people. Does this not have meaning?

>>3417209

/pol/ is one of the funniest places on the internet

>Whites are superior
>However, Jews run the world

>>3417220

You're improving society by whining on a message board? EVERYONE is delusional, we all choose which bullshit to incorporate into our identities. Try choosing constructive bits and it'll make the inescapable parts of life enjoyable rather than "an oppression of the capitalist elite" or whatever bollocks it was.

If you think you'll be helped by believing in God then do it, what objective standard are you measuring society against?

>>3417190
Fuck yes they are. We make a new flavor every week.

>>3417201
Sorry man, it's a tiny place. I know that desperation of looking for a job though. Good luck.

>>3416755
Europe is always ahead of the US. I think I need to move there. Which countries are the best overall (i.e., work the least while maintaining a high standard of living)?

>>3417168
>would you be ashamed to make a living through crime?
No.
>If so then would you still be ashamed if someone else stole for you?
No.

>>3417244
norway, sweden, finland.
stick to norway or sweden though, finnish is fucking awful.

>>3417223

Ask someone who fills those fucking boxes if they think their job has meaning. Protip: I'm here, and it doesn't.

>>3417244

Do 5 years in London/Manhattan for your career then move somewhere else that's beautiful and leisurely at a higher position than you would have. Life will be easier in the future with a little effort now. It's the useful part of capitalism on a person level. Just don't get caught up in your own bullshit and you'll be fine.

>>3417251
but it does have meaning. Sure, it could be done by machine and is an inefficient use of human labor, but it does have meaning.

>>3417244
Continental Germanic countries, the more northern the better.

>>3417275
>2013
>meaning
lol

>>3417251
Those people usually don't think that deeply about stuff. They live for the weekend.

>>3417275

Most jobs could easily be replaced by machines and a lot of things people pay for are (and soon will be) readily available for nothing. The future of civilization depends powerfully on how much marketing departments can convince people it makes them better people to pay for shit they don't need to.

>>3417236
You've missed my point. They're are ways in which we can alter society, in very real and proven ways, which will reduce the importance of work. Rather than think of puppies while being raped, I am suggesting it is better to end said rape. Similarly, it is better to take medicine than pay.

If course the is no moral realism, but for me I think improving the health and happiness of society (through political action) is a more noble cause than learning to love that you lift crates for a living.

>>3417288
The problem is that while we are shifting to a society where work is less and less needed, we still adhere to norms where people have to work because of our old work ethic. There will be less and less jobs in the future and more and more people, yet we still require everyone to work, which can't be done. We should get used to the fact that in affluent first world societies a significant non-working part of the population will become the norm.

>>3417300
try working in metaethics, i can assure you moral realism does still exist haha
moral facts do not however lol

>>3417288
yeah but that stuff still has real use, value, and meaning. Oxygen has value even if it is in abundance, and it'll be the same (hopefully) with energy, food, and most goods in the FUTURE.

>>3417300

Spoken like a true political activist - empty, vapid rambling. What are these real and proven ways? That you conflate working for a living with rape makes me not want to take anything you have to say seriously.

>>3417305
>rising level of world-wide NEETdom
I think there will always be work for people to do, though it will be less essential to sustaining life (except for jobs to maintain infrastructure/machines). Stuff like service jobs, art, entertainment and the like will never stop existing.

Why couldn't I be born in the glorious and prosperous future where I can jerk off and make art all the time?

>>3417311
THIS IS very intriguing, any recommended reading?

>>3416614

What a rudimentary understanding...

>>3417328

Cybernetics already exist, they're just on a very basic level currently. Live long enough and get a reasonable amount of money and you may never need to die (entropy allowing).

>>3417330
i really wouldnt know what to recommend..
are you new to the field entirely?
or just looking for current defences of realism?

Dumas!

>>3417336
what an enlightening comment...

>>3417353
this is my retirement plan

>>3417359
I have taken some ethics courses but an unfamiliar with metaethics and have never heard a good defense of moral realism.

>>3417328
It's already here. I do that.

>>3417409
there is non, doesnt keep people from trying. really smart people even, ill admit.

>>3417322
Okay, apologies if the rape analogy made you uncomfortable. It was the first tragedy I thought of in which the wronged party may attempt to go into denial during the act.

I'm not advocating anything unique here, we can look to foreign systems and find workers who work less, retire early and get panty of vacation time. All with better education and health care. Hell, they can even support those who are unable to work without calling them a drag on society.

The point is, America has fetishized work and treat the wealthy as some sacred "job creator" god whom we can't burden with social programs. This "learn to love working" is a swell way to make 40 hours off your week more bearable, but ultimately halts societal progress because the current system becomes acceptable.

How do I into workfree living?

Holy shit this thread is fucking awful. Literally every post is awful. Literally. Fuck all of you for being so stupid.

People get jobs because they want things and it's a means to an end. If you don't desire material goods, then don't get a fucking job.

If you do desire material things, then shut the fuck up and get a job.

Nobody is forcing you to do either. You can easily walk around the streets collecting bottles and make more than minimum wage.

So I'm pretty sure my professor is a Marxist and is attempting to indoctrinate the entire class because he talks about how capitalism forces you to either enter into the wage relation or die. Therefore the only real choice being a submission to the all powerful owners of the means of production.

But who says you have to settle with being a "proletariat"? Isn't the whole point of capitalism that you can climb the social ladder? You can aspire to be your own man and an owner of means of production. To me it seems most people settle and just blame the system.

>>3416765
>>3416755
Yuropoors don't have a better standard of living unless they live in Norway or the Netherlands. At least do some research before acting retarded on the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanevelopment_Index

>>3417695
The way i see is, capitalism exists because everyone thinks they will climb the social ladder.

The average proletarian doesnt see himself as a proletarian.

>>3417695
"Wage slavery" is code for "I think the government should use guns to extract wealth from certain individuals I don't like and give it to groups of people that I do like."

>>3417695
Good luck climbing the social ladder making minimum wage. Some people are born into worse situations than yourself, and I can tell you're better off than others because you have a professor. I know a lot of people who work paycheck to paycheck, put in a lot more physical and emotional effort doing shit jobs in comparison to Marxist profs. The tragedy is many of these people will go to the grave with very little to show for it.

>>3417707

I don't think they just want money.

>>3417716
You're right, we should just make the minimum wage $1000. Instant utopia.

>>3417480
ha, americanteen thinks he understands economy while mentally sidestepping the issue of globalization.

>foreign systems
obviously you are thinking of Europe, or more specifically, the Schengen states. they are all tied together, economically. some of them work much, much harder and have shittier social welfare at the expense of other Schengen nations who languish with daily siestas and months of vacation time.

your comment lets me know you don't pay attention to economic news. where do you think the most precarious economic situation is right now? you don't understand what you are saying, you are repeating things you have heard others say, which is especially sad as they, too, lack understanding.

>>3417722
Oh yeah, nice rhetoric.

>>3417716
>>3417695
A lot of people have no other choice than to get minimum wage jobs, and with some cities planned out the way they are people may need to purchase a vehicle to get from work to home/vice versa. This then requires them to make payments, buy gas, pay insurance on top of rent, electricity, food and other necessities. Life isn't easy starting out at the bottom.

>>3417716
Yeah I'd agree that I have it better than others, but not by much really. Sure I go to uni but its only thanks to scholarship and grant money. My family is actually really poor but that doesn't make me think a communist state would be better. To think that in a general sense everyone should be equal (in terms of skills/labor) seems kind of ridiculous to me.

It's not like there aren't programs and things like that to help people get educations and jobs. I think that most people just don't want to put the effort. Those who do, for the most part, succeed.

>>3417727
>nice rhetoric

I'm just pointing out why you're retarded and don't understand economics.

>>3416558
"Wah, I can't travel the world writing angsty poetry about my juvenile feelings." Get the fuck over it OP, life is not about that, and it's not about work. You do work so you don't starve, so you can do the shit that's actually important to you on weekends. So you can feed kids if you got em, afford cable service to watch the shows you enjoy if you like watching TV, buy books if you like books. Someone must do labor to bring you these things, and must be compensated. In order to provide such, you must do labor to earn your own compensation. Only someone from a background of privilege, someone who hasn't ever understood material want, hasn't felt the sting of want, could ask such a stupid question. No, your life is not about having a fucking job. But yes, you have to get one if you want things. Boo fucking hoo. /endrant

>>3417733
Sorry, but I'm just pointing out some of the material realities of the people in this world working harder for less than the people at the top. And I was responding to the ever persisting myth that one can climb the social ladder with just a little bit of hard work.

Sure, I haven't read Milton Friedman, but perhaps if people took their heads out of their asses and actually looked at the reality of our economic situation then we might be able to make conditions better for people.

>>3417722
Is that higher than actual minimum wage in the US? Goddamn.

Essays on work.

http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm

http://cloudfront.crimethinc.com/wk_extras/Mythology-of-Work-print.f

>>3417732
I wasn't advocating communism, but I'm just saying that I know a lot of people who put in a lot of effort and don't get a lot of material success. Again, success depends in this conversation on how we're defining it.

>>3416716
careful boy you gon cut yoself on those edges

>>3417740
ew, i used the same word twice in a sentence. i'm disqualified, OP wins, angsty teens shouldn't have to get jobs, they should just sail about writing poetry.

"If a man walk in the woods for love of them half of each day, he is in danger of being regarded as a loafer; but if he spends his whole day as a speculator, shearing off those woods and making earth bald before her time, he is esteemed an industrious and enterprising citizen."

"If the laborer gets no more than the wages which his employer pays him, he is cheated, he cheats himself."

- Henry David Thoreau, 'Life Without Principle'

>>3416565
Just live with your parents and get a part time job.
Living together and sharing costs helps me a lot.

>>3416570
LOL not for me. Programming all day long 9 to 20 is a pain in the ass.
But. But I have to in order to get Dollars.

>>3417844
>I don't want to get a job but I'm happy to live off the proceeds of the jobs of others
Seems even more shallow than getting a job. Shallow and hypocritical.

I don't want to get a job, I want to hunter and gather instead. Fuck society!!!

>>3417889
There are people that do that you know

I guess dying at 40 isn't much fun however

>>3417918
>living past 40

>>3417795
>complains about capitalism and corporations
>posts a photo from facebook

Middle class anarchists in a nutshell.

>>3417795
>Quoting Thoreau

>>3417924
>being one of the millions in the echo of the "i'm not gonna live past 40" chorus

I'll see you all at 41, ya faggots.

>>3417964
i always thought it was no living past 30

>>3417936
>thinks being an anarchist implies never using anything created by a corporate entity

There are no rules, son.

>>3417969
It's the same sentiment, either way. Narcissists wanting to burn out instead of fading away.

>>3417918
are you 40? if not, stfu, you don't know what it's like becoming an old, impotent, senile, weakling. I assure you, it is an ignoble end, fit only for the trash of civilization -- those subhuman automatons who exist purely to sit on their fat asses, slaving away for the profit of TRUE ALPHA MALES, namely me. I shall live the life of a nomadic warrior, living free of all laws, save for that of nature, and raiding my pathetic sedentary neighbours when I desire. I shall have your women. I shall have your wealth. And I shall have your head mounted on a pike outside of my yurt. You are nothing to me.

>>3417993
Your jaw isn't big enough.

>>3417993
penetrate my ass please.

>>3418020
seconded

>>3417936
this is why market anarchists are the only ones that make sense

>>3417993

post of the week

>>3418020
>>3418033
>>3418100
>trying this hard

>>3416558
A nihilist, are you?

In my opinion, if you have the opportunity and the privilege, you should be devoting your existence to personal fulfilment and/or what you think is important, not working for the sake of having a career. Unfortunately not many people are given this opportunity and privilege.

And that's mainly because our society is based on an economic system that forces and requires people to spend their entire lives working menial pointless jobs, whether low or high paying, simply to earn a minimum standard of living and dignity. People are taught that this is acceptable and an appropriate end in itself. It's a shitty depressing fact.

So what I would suggest is for anyone to pursue, like I said, what gives them happiness and meaning, assuming they are lucky enough to have this chance. Any job should be in pursuing these goals only, not as something to occupy your days.

>>3418122
Confirmed for not knowing what a nihilist is.

>>3418134
Yeah, but the entire reason society exists for people to have that opportunity is because someone else built it. Not working is equivalent to not pulling your share and instead asking for other people to pay for you. What makes you feel justified in being so selfish?

(Just playing devil's advocate.)

Because it's more convenient to exchange services than it is to perform them all for yourself.

Self-sufficiency is not unattainable, but I suspect your concern falls closer to "why doesn't society value me more," than it does "I reject the architecture of our society."

It's a common misconception, don't feel bad. The hippies had the same problem, except instead of complaining about it on the internet, they formed communes and consumed large quantities of hallucinogenic drugs.

>>3417174

Finally, someone who gets it. If someone makes some political claim to me without defining exactly what they are arguing (and thus the terms they use) then any further discussion is absolutely meaningless dribble.

But then again, who is interested in discussion which might be worth having anyway? So many prefer their superficial headbutting.

>>3418173

>I suspect your concern falls closer to "why doesn't society value me more," than it does "I reject the architecture of our society."

That kinda rings true for me. I have an idealistic dream of small communities that share labour equally for food and shelter, and all know each other and get along. I guess that makes sense to me, but me being lost in a capitalist structure and a large, impersonal city makes no sense to me.

>>3418172
I never advised simply not working and selfishly forcing others to pick up after you. I was just talking about the type and, more importantly, the reasons behind choosing a job. Basically that these two considerations should point you towards a life properly lived, not a an occupation whose sole purpose is acquiring wealth, social status etc. The way I look at it is that given the incredibly short time you are alive for, what do you truly believe should be done with your precious fleeting existence?

>>3417457
not >>3417409, but i thought it's mostly a struggle between realism and non-cognitivism with relativism as the ridiculed middle child. how far off am i

Worst thing with wage slavery is that you are ultimately working for your own demise by supporting cancerously self-cannibalizing capitalism. By being a wage slave you are supporting interests of thousands of others openly hostile to you agents before you get to work towards your own interests. Knowing this while being forced to be a wage slave is soul-crushing.

>>3416558
Only on /lit/. Only on /lit/.

>>3418297
And /jp/ and /r9k/

>>3416833
>we can't even survive on minimum wage for rent and bills.
You're joking right? I survived on minimum wage by myself with no benefits whatsoever for 3 years. It's your fault for being retarded with money.

Good god, this thread is full of young and stupid communists who have never worked hard in their life. Pathetic.

>>3418264

You've just described a commune.

It's not an uncommon ideal - if it's a genuine source of attraction for you, move to Portland.

Make some time for introspection first, though - idealized settings are often formed around idealized selves. Unless you can be certain it's something grounded entirely in reality, there's a good chance you'll regret that kind of decision.

Either way, it's a good mental exercise. You might find you're not as unhappy as you think you are.

The spice must flow OP, nothing in this world is for nothing.

Not even trying to be /lit/.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di-HBsF08

>>3418384

http://youtu.be/zI5hrcwU7Dk

You all realize Americans used to work less and make more, right? You all realize Americans work more than any other modern country right? And you know this can be fixed with modest regulation?

Why are you Amerifats actively choosing to work more for less? My mind is boggled. By what metric is such a life preferable? Not even trolling.

>>3418420
>And you know this can be fixed with modest regulation?
You were doing good until this. No amount of regulation will revive the shattered manufacturing base and overabundant workforce. We have too few jobs for too few people and creating a massive bureaucracy hamper business and make the average citizen poorer. The truth is some Americans are going to have to suffer being poor until economic conditions change.

>>3418420
many americans don't like this system

it is especially prevalent in the midwest among the older generation and those of the younger generation who are eager to please

if you are not in school, on unemployment/welfare, and not still living with or receive money from your family, most of the time you will actually need a job to be able to be able to sleep in a place that has heating, air conditioning, water, and power.

It is expensive to rent an apartment or house, and if you would like to live there, you don't just need money, you need a job a lot of the time for them to accept your application.

really kids

go to college/vocational school>take out enough loans to live on>choose a field that you like and that is practical>prioritize school>work if you need money or want the experience>earn a certification or licence

>>3418449
>and not still living with or receive money from your family, most of the time you will actually need a job to be able to be able to sleep in a place that has heating, air conditioning, water, and power.
As it should be. You think living entirely off the state is an acceptable option?

>>3418420
It's true. Production is higher than ever, but wages haven't risen much after adjusting for inflation.

>>3418457
I was responding to the question "why are you amerifats actively choosing to work more for less"

to which I answered "because we have to"

>>3418481
>Production is higher than ever, but wages haven't risen much after adjusting for inflation.
Because too many people are working. There are 2 culprits. Massive immigration and working women. This led to a doubling of the available workforce.

>>3418492
Not to mention everybody thinking they should own a home/their child should go to college.

Or the fact there has been an upward trend of CEO compensation in these same years.

>>3418507
>Not to mention everybody thinking they should own a home/their child should go to college.

Yeah, god forbid people actually want homes and education.

>2013
>needing to work for a living

Haha! I'm going to retire at 26, according to my plans. Simple living is the way, faggots

>>3418517
You don't need college for education, especially the kind of "education" the majority of people receive in the USA now that grade inflation is the norm and a generation of idiots decided to major in education, social sciences, or history just because they thought college was what you should do and never gave it any thought. Not all of them are idiots, but...come one. How much a year for THAT?

And, no. Not everybody needs to own a home. In fact, it's a horrible idea especially when you consider that people are getting ridiculous mortgages and then refinancing them to pay for college. Most of Germany rents, by the way. Their economy isn't so bad.

ITT writer and philosophers a.k.a. poorfags

inb4 eminent butt-hurt

>>3416558
occupying your time so you don't an hero.

>>3418552

Where else can you go for a few hours of the day and get lectured about various topics?

>>3418527
how do you get money?

>>3418594
the internet
your parents/relatives/friends if they're intellectual

>>3418420
Yanks don't understand metric lel

>>3418420
>Americans made more decades ago when there was less regulation
>the solution is to have more regulation

>>3418420
Unless you live in the Netherlands, Norway, or Australia(has a freer market than the US).. America has higher living standards than your country.

>tfw delicious social liberalist hybrid welfare state
>being Dutch best day of my life

>>3416703
Yeah, keep blaming those poor people when the oil companies are actively raping you. Wake up, man.

>>3418877
HDI isn't really all that telling. It's not like the USA has a better quality of life than the Nordic countries or Germany or something.

>>3418420
>"by what metric"
>implying we Americans believe in the metric system

>>3419142
>not realizing that corporate lobbying and entitlement/welfare spending are both fucking up America
ain't no false dichotomies here

>>3419275
>implying the US spends anything near the amount on welfare that they spend bombing sand people

>>3419275
>implying the need for welfare wasn't created by the criminal acts of the rich

>>3419291
do a google search. They're not that different. $0 should be spent on both.
>>3419311
Maybe, but there's always going to be a need for charity/welfare. Does it have to be payed for through taxation?

>>3419353
>should be

nah

>>3416558
because being productive feels good

>>3419353
>$0 should be spent on both.
Enjoy your bandit raids. Buying off the poor is a better method than fighting them. That's why most governments give them just enough to keep them docile. Do you really want to put ghetto people in a position where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain? I can already see the mobs flooding the suburbs.

>>3419353
>Does it have to be payed for through taxation?
Yes. In the past it was done by other sorts of blackmail (if you don't help the poor you burn in hell) but that doesn't work anymore.

>>3418760
i'm an assassin

>>3421633
seriously though

captcha: taorism abia

Well under the categorical imperative, if no one has a job, we would all die

>>3416614
this is becoming increasingly difficult. it's impossible for everyone to do something that makes them happy. someone's always going to be stuck with a menial, degrading job and not always because of lack of effort or intelligence.
those jobs are what developed societies are built from, and what allow a few of us privileged ones to pursue "what makes us happy"

>come to lit
>pol discussions better than /pol/

OP if you dont want to live working every day save up a bunch of money and learn to live and sustain life off of the grid. unfortunately this is pretty expensive and hard to do in todays society.

>>3416707
White people on food stamps: 35%
Black people on food stamps: 22%

Sources: U.S. Department of Agriculture, U.S. Census 2010

Just throwing that out there. That video is retarded as fuck either way.

>>3416726
>you are paying for less than what you receive from the government (see: national deficit)

Is this satire?

I really fucking like how I got banned for 24 hours last week for participating in a thread about poetic lyrics in music and yet this thread is not only still here but it's the top thread on the board.

Way to be consistent, janitor.

>>3422046
Did you just completely pull those out of your ass? The % of blacks on welfare is extraordinarily higher than whites. Liberals through out the red herring "There are more whites than blacks on food stamps!", which is meant to intentionally mislead. That's because there are 9 times as many whites.

>>3422079
I listed my sources, shitdick. There's more white people on welfare in America than black people.

>>3422102

But a larger PERCENTAGE of black people are on welfare.

Of course number-wise there are more white people. They're 60+ % of the population, not 13% like blacks.

Quit being a dumbass.

>>3422046
You fucking piece of shit, misrepresenting statistics. 35% represents the amount of food stamps recipients that are white, not the amount of whites receiving food stamps. There is also a 22.7% category for "other/unknown". I sure wonder if those are more likely to be black or white?

>>3422153

>>3422102

>Be at Wal-Mart buying groceries after working a 11 hour shift
>Buy a bag of potatoes, some rice and beans
>See a huge, black landwhale of a walrus riding a cart stuffed, OVERFLOWING, with junk food: cheesy poofs, soda, frozen pizzas, ice cream
>She rides her cart up and cuts right in front of me
>Then she takes out her food stamp card and throws it at the cashier, "Yo rings up mah food!"
>Then she turns and looks at me and says, "Yea I cut, i knowz that, cuz till I get resperations, I'mma cut in front of the white man"

>>3422129

This thread is still around? Not even trying to be /lit/.

Work if you want to, don't if you don't

Now shaddup

P.S. It reeks of Ayn Rand and /pol/

>>3422163

cool story bro