/lit/ - Literature

>>3377562
bump

i have no clue what you're talking about OP

No. Haven't you been to GRRM's forums?

Arya steals Dany's Dragon, and ends up on the throne. But she abolishes the monarchy and sets up a parliament.

If Stannis dies then I'll either root for the Others to wipe out humanity or just stop reading the series.

>>3377570
I want to believe it

>>3377573
He's the only person in this entire series that hasn't caused an atrocity

>Roose Bolton

>>3377570
yeah i also want stupid boring shit to happen in my fantasy book

>>3377580
Not yet. I like the theory that he will "break" and become a Night's King parallel. Of course this theory entails him taking command of the Night's Watch at some point soon -- perhaps after being betrayed by the Northerners once there's a Stark in Winterfell?

>>3377580
He's also the only one that has legitimate claim

>>3377586
Or if Jon Snow is alive

I can dream right?

>>3377573
Melly Sanders got Azor Ahai's location right, but the wrong person. AA is Davos, Stannis will be his Nissa Nissa.

>>3377586
>betrayed by the Northerners once there's a Stark in Winterfell?

Why would that happen? We're getting a Stark back in Winterfell pretty soon all because of Stannis.

>>3377592
I've decided that Azor Ahai is just bullshit. Its been so many different people at this point

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai/Theories

>based stannis

>>3377597
Because they are separatists. They're just using Stannis as long as it's convenient. I also think that Asha may be in the process of contriving some peril for Stannis. I don't like the feel of her plan to lure him into the weirwood.

I'm rooting for this guy.

Everybody else in the story can suck it.

>>3377610
>tfw Bronn is the only safe character in this series

>>3377612
>tfw no bronn

>>3377599
I'm 90% convinced that "Lightbringer" is actually the Night's Watch (the clue is in their vows), so it stands to reason that AA will be their commander -- Jon or his successor (Stannis?)

>>3377630
That's actually an interesting theory, ive never heard that before

>Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer when he killed his wife Nissa Nissa, his most beloved
>Strong hints that Jon could be Azor Ahai
>Nissa Nissa backwards read Assinassin
>pretty close to assassin
>Arya is an assassin
>Jon kills Arya in order to forge Lightbringer, his most beloved
This will happen, fuckers.

>>3377667
if Ygritte was still alive, it would make more sense, since he loved her, and John doesn't even know if Ayra's alive yet. Also we don't even know if Jon is still alive.

>>3377672
>if Ygritte was still alive, it would make more sense
No, from the very first chapters in AGOT, we know that there is a special bond between Jon and Arya. A bond that is still pretty strong. That bond is better then a girl he fucked because of hormones. He liked her, but not the same way he likes Arya.

>Also we don't even know if Jon is still alive.
come on. He ain't gonna kill off Jon. Not with all the foreshadowing of his character. It was meant as a cliffhanger. His fate was supposed to be unknown. It's not like GRRM to end a book with the death of a Stark. It's first off, incredibly anti-climactic, but also, detrimental to the story.

The fact that Arya can hide her face now and she's in the process of becoming someone else entirely is all the more evidence of her fate.

>>3377685
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ygritte

>>3377692
>http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ygritte
Yeah and? Write motherfucker.

Arya is one of the most mysterious characters to me right now. I really don't know where her story is going. I guess she will kill someone significant, and I also think she is likely to be the only remaining Stark to die before the end of the series. Are there any plausible theories about her future? I don't really buy the stealing/assassinating a dragon stuff.

>>3377697
>Jon Snow sees her as beautiful.
>she dies in his arms
>o save Jon, Ygritte lies and tells Mance that the two are sexually involved. This knowledge helps to convince Mance that Jon has turned his cloak in truth. That night, Ygritte seduces him, and the two begin a torrid, intensely sexual affair as they march for the Wall.

>tfw Jon will ride the Wight Dragon.

>>3377714
But did you see Lightbringer in any of that? No, because Ygritte isn't really part of this. She's dead. But it wasn't Jon that killed her. Your arguments are poor.

I think Ygritte's role was just to distinguish Jon from Robb. Where Robb abandoned his duty for his first love, Jon was able to eventually resist his love/lust and place his duty first.

>>3377723
That's why i said if she was STILL ALIVE it would make more sense, that way he could sacrafice her for lightbringer.

>>3377711
Into darkness. All the characters are kinda terrified by her by now. Even the Faceless Men are kinda sceptical because of her bloodlust. The Ghost of High Hearth fled when she met Arya because she saw only blood. The Hound thought the same about her. And her mindset is really fucked. She witnesses all these fucked up things and it's starting to get to her. She's starting to kill people on her own iniative due to her bloodlust. And when she's Nymeria, she seems to really enjoy the killing and eating of animals and even men. Whereas the other Starks are kinda reserved about the whole warging thing. Save Bran maybe but he's a cripple fuck so that explains that.

As if this "identity loss" wasn't enough, the faceless Men now have taught her how to change face. It all leads down to a dark path.

>>3377733
>if she was still alive
But she isn't. And even if she was, it still wouldn't make more sense because Arya means more to Jon than anyone else save Robb maybe.

>>3377736
>tfw arya creates the assassin brotherhood and kills Roose and Daenerys

>>3377728
except the part where he fucked her several times. He even said it himself that he's starting to enjoy it too much for his own good. The situation of the too isn't really the same. Jeyne wasn't a love crush to Robb but more of an obligation to marry her because he slept with her once. Jon didn't face the same dilemma because he's in the Night's Watch and they take no wifes.

>>3377737
>being this autistic
>/lit/
pick one

>>3377736
So how do you think that will manifest itself in terms of plot? Do you see her "qualifying" as a Faceless Man or do you think her Stark identity will eventually win out? Will she loiter in Essos or will she return to Westeros soon? What other major characters will she interact with? Who will she kill?

>>3377743
I'm not being autistic. Your argument makes no sense and it doesn't refute any of my points. It's just a "what if" scenario you've imprinted in your head.

>>3377751
Well, she did hid Needle from the Faceless Men so there's that. But her biggest problem isn't really the Faceless Men, but herself. I can bet my left nut that she will meet Jon again in one way or another.

But you're right. It's hard to tell where any of the characters will end up by now.

>>3377751
My feeling is that she finally reclaims her stark identity, and allies with Stannis, leading to the few stark supporters in the North to rally against the Boltons. I think she'll go back to westeros, and be the one to kill Ramsey snow.

>>3377741
He could have ditched the Night's Watch for her. He fucked her and technically broke his vows, yeah, but he never abandoned his duty. He even killed her, or at least fought against her, when she threatened the thing he was sworn to protect. Jeyne being pregnant obviously makes Robb's decision a little more complicated, but he still basically chose her above his duty to the North.

>>3377769
Those are two complete different scenarios. If Jon had sided with Ygritte, it would've meant he would've marched against the Night's Watch. That would be the equivalent of Robb marrying Cersei Lannister. Jon's choice was also easier in that in wildling culture, it's not really shunned for a woman to sleep with several men. Whereas if Robb had left Jeyne at the Crag, he would've left her to a life of shame and guilt.

Jon and Robb are really similar actually. Probably why GRRM decided to kill one off

>>3377761
>It's hard to tell where any of the characters will end up by now.

It's easier to theorise about most of the others, though. Another unknown quantity to me is Euron. He seems like he's shaping up to be a major thorn in Dany's side, so I suspect that perhaps the oft-foreshadowed second Dance of Dragons will actually involve him rather than Aegon. He's also definitely going to smash the Redwyne fleet. The Tyrells are due some misery.

>>3377777
Yeah, especially because he's Daario. Hence why Moqorro is shit-scared about the threat he possesses to Dany.

Reach is about to get fucked from three different factions if Dorne is to ally themselves with Aegon. Their political power will be further decreased by Cersei's shenanigans.

>>3377773
I'm not saying they are exact parallels, I just think that comparing the two situations highlights that Jon is the stronger character. Robb made a great act of self-sacrifice, but damned the North in the process. Jon is smarter and tougher.

>>3377782
>Yeah, especially because he's Daario.

Unless it is all of sudden revealed that teleporting is a thing in Westeros, this is actually impossible.

>>3377786
Jon is probably smarter than Robb because he knows the life of the outcast. But at the same time, save from Cat's treatment, their raisings were pretty similar. Both were raised by Eddard Stark and hence why they share most similarities with him.

>Jon is the stronger character
Again, I think it's because you see them in different context. At one point, Robb Stark was fighting the most powerful and fearsome man in the Seven Kingdoms and he didn't even doubt a second about his cause being just. At the age of 15. That is balls no matter how you look at it. And the fact that he's willing to carry out justice no matter the political consequences highlights his immense character integrity and strength. That sort of strength is seen with few characters in these books. And that strength is probably what doomed him at the end.

And it wasn't Robb that damned the North. His actions indirectly led to its doom, but he isn't responsible for its fall.

>>3377793
>Melisandre

>>3377797
>His actions indirectly led to its doom
>indirectly

He trusted Roose and Theon and virtually spat in Walder Frey's face. I'm not questioning his balls or his ability as a war general, just his nous and his ability to make (correct) hard decisions.

>>3377805
The discussion at hand was who of the two Stark brothers showed the greatest strength. But fine, he made some dumb political decisions. And trusting Theon did not really alter Balon's retarded plans to invade the North. His army was already ready when Theon arrived.

Actually, the reason why I think Jon did better than Robb was that he didn't have Cat around. It was Cat that urged Robb to trust Roose. It was Cat that released The Kingslayer. And it was Cat that started the whole mess in the first place. Jon doesn't need to deal with any of that shit. But he fucked up aswell, remember? Both of them failed because they put too much trust in men close to them.

>>3377805
A recurring theme in ASOIAF is the futility of the Westerosi notion of 'honour'.

>>3377813
Jon had the strength to put his duty before himself and indeed before any other individual. Robb put honour before duty, and it fucked him over. He made an emotional decision out of weakness. Not martial weakness but moral weakness. The honourable thing is not necessarily always the right thing -- see Jaime's character arc for an example of this.

>>3377827
Granted Cat is an idiot. Funnily enough, though, he ignored the one good piece of advise she did give him -- to trust Greywind.

>And trusting Theon did not really alter Balon's retarded plans to invade the North. His army was already ready when Theon arrived.

It was Theon's idea to take Winterfell.

>>3377827
His decision wasn't that of weakness. A weak choice would've been to ditch Jeyne to rot with no one noticing what an asshole he was. Because that choice would've come with no consequences to Robb himself but it would all fall on Jeyne. I don't understand how you think Robb is weak by taking the huge leap of breaking his oath in order to save a woman from eternal shame. The opposite would've been true.

>The honourable thing is not necessarily always the right thing
By Westerosi standards, marrying Jeyne wasn't honorable. It was dishonorable. But it was the morally right thing to do.

>see Jaime's character arc for an example of this.
Jaime's decision to kill Aerys is pretty similar to that of Robb's to marry Jeyne actually. The one doesn't disprove the other.

And Jon broke too. He would abandon his post to march south and reclaim Arya. Don't forget that.

>>3377840
>It was Theon's idea to take Winterfell.
The bias of hindsight.

>Why didn't Robb realize that instead of accepting to an alliance of mutual gain, Balon would abandon all reason and attack the North in a foolish attempt to claim a land that is too big for fucking vikings to control, and then, Theon would abandon his good friend only to make a sneak attack on Winterfell that was previously thought impossible because Ser Rodrik was guarding it. Oh but Ser Rodrik acted like a fool just this once and then Theon acted like a fool and then Ramsay came (whom all thought was dead) and decided to burn it all down. Yeah, why the hell did Robb not know this by releasing Theon?!

>>3377847
>But it was the morally right thing to do.

Maybe in the immediate short term, but in the long term he directly condemned thousands of people to death, including some of his closest friends, his mother and himself. And Jeyne is hardly the happiest woman in the world right now, either, is she? The North put its fate in his hands and he pissed it away for 'honour'.

>And Jon broke too. He would abandon his post to march south and reclaim Arya. Don't forget that.

You're right, and he paid for it. And when he is alive again, he will have learnt his lesson. Even so, I still say Jon is and always has been tougher in a more essentially Northern, Starkish way. Where Robb subscribes to a romantic, valiant form of honour, Jon is more duty bound.

>>3377854
It may not be reasonable to expect him to predict the exact outcome of trusting Theon, but he should have been a good enough judge of character to realise Theon wasn't trustworthy. Cat knew it.

Jon is generally a better judge of character.

>>3377880
>directly
No, indirectly is the word you're looking for. You're blaming Robb for something he had no part in. Nobody could've anticipiated the Red Wedding. It was an immense over reaction by Walder Frey to show his allegiance to Tywin Lannister. I would argue it was still the right thing to do.

>>3377885
Jon is indeed a better judge of character. But again, that's because he's more familiar to how rotten people can be compared to Robb's upraising which consisted of everyone treating him like he was the greatest. So no, Jon did not trust Theon. For your information, Cat didn't really find Theon untrustworthy. It's just that she didn't saw fit to release a ward just yet.

Jon managed to manuever both Stannis and the wildlings to his advantage. That alone takes huge skills. And he seems to know his stuff in battle aswell.

>>3377893
>risking a war, and a kingdom over a woman

No. Learn to realpolitik. Mistresses and bastards are perfectly acceptable and can be well taken care of, and if Rob had won the war no one would have been able to question him if he wanted to divorce the Frey bitch and marry Jayne. You can't let honor and emotions interfere with grand strategy, it just leads to more suffering. Even without knowledge of the Red Wedding Rob should have known to put Jayne on the back burner until the war was over

>risking your supply lines and a major ally over a woman

As they say around these parts: "not even once"

>>3377711
I reckon she'll have to assassinate Sansa, and this will cause her to choose between her past identity and the new identity she's taken.

imo
Robb did wrong both morally and strategically since he was basically betrothed to a Frey woman and dishonored it.

>>3377973
Who would hire a Faceless Man to kill Sansa? If she is to be reunited with Sansa any time soon, it would make more sense for her to kill Littlefinger and stumble across Sansa then.

>>3377983
Sansa has potential to become queen in the Vale/Winterfell, causing her to become an immediate threat. Having her killed would end the problem.

>>3377994
hiring a FM would still be overkill. as far as I'm aware Euron is the only one crazy enough to hire a FM so far in ASOIAF. though some theories suggest Jaquen is doing Varys or Littlefinger's bidding.

I still think Jon will become the Night's King but we'll learn more about the Night's King and his role in the story. I dunno, I find him living out the AA prophecy very dull and cliche.

>>3378002
Cersei mentions considering hiring a Faceless Man at one stage in the 4th book. So it certainly does happen.

If Stannis is able to let his priestess murder his own brother with a vagina fart, I'm sure someone would happily have Sansa disposed of. And Varys wouldn't want a Stark/Littlefinger taking hold of the throne, since he's holding out for a Targaryen to take it.

Then again, having Sansa cause Cersei more trouble would help Varys too... Cersei may go mad once she discovers that Sansa is still alive and may consider Sansa's existence as a threat through the prophecy. Thus, she'll focus all her attention on fighting the Vale/Winterfell, and ultimately destroying herself in the process.

>>3378025
>with a vagina fart

>>3378025
I think Cersei will not rise to power anymore since Mace is the Hand and half the council was Lannister before Kevan's and Pycelle's death. Though Cersei still might have influence through the Rock.
Now that Kevan has died, before Cersei has had his trial which leaves her out of the politics till the trial ends, Mace has full control over the council and will most likely name himself or his own man the Regent further extending Tyrell's power.

Can't wait for the next book.

>>3378260
Also, Cersei doesn't want to leave his only son alone in KL which means she most likely will not leave for Casterly Rock and having a castellan weakens her grip over the West.

>>3378260
Nah, Cersei is gonna wreck shit in TWoW. She will reclaim her regency after Robert Strong slices Lancel to pieces in her trial, then she will holocaust those stupid sparrows, then, when Mace Tyrell is marching south to confront Aegon, she will murder Margaery. After Aegon smashes Mace's army and surrounds King's Landing, she will do what Aerys never could and burn the city to the ground with wildfire. Tommen's death might be a catalyst to one or more of these events. She will finally be killed by Jaime, or perhaps Robert Strong if it turns out that one of his hands is Jaime's old hand.

Tommen on the throne

With Littlefinger's hand on his shoulder

>>3378331

Why not Sansa? Cersei was always going about how she was going to preper Sansa for the role of a queen. And so does Littlefinger. It follows that Sansa will eventually show her cunning side and tear them a new one.

>>3378357
I don't think Sansa is the killing sort, plus it was prophesied that Cersei would die at the hand of her younger brother, IIRC.

>>3378363
I do like the idea that Jaime's hand is attached to Robert Strong. Either way, she is going to go fucking mental. Can't wait.

Dunno if she'll murder Margaery though. Part of me would like Margaery to take a serious ruling role or cause some serious shit.

>>3378374
Part of me wants her to die for a the shitstorm that would ensue.

Too bad the books will never get finished.

Anyone who contests that anyone but Stannis would serve as the King most suited for dominion of Westeros is tragically mistaken. The quintessentially fuedal nature of Westeros necessitates a leader who is supremely austere in the aspect of the law, but less so in the face of morality, is more liable to engender fear than love in his subjects and constituent vassals (to this point I reference Machiavelli's "The Prince"), and lastly percieves power as an obligation of the mighty and rightful rather than an indulgence. If you concede that these arguments hold water than you must by all lucid reasoning support Stannis for the throne.

>>3378430
Well spoken, I agree.

Davos is azor ahai and he'll fix everything.

>>3378430
True

At this point Stannis is the pretty clear choice. Not many people are contesting that.

What is up for debate right now are the fates of some of the more interesting characters.

Is Jon dead or did that niggardly fuck Marsh just mess with his shit?

Where is the storyline with Arya going?

Will Tyrion's storyline stop being painfully boring and go back to being buckets of fun?

is Danny's story finally done being shit and ready to start being buckets of fun?

Then there's the debate on whether or not Robb made a mistep with Jeyne or was Frey just being a nigger.

>>3380812
Oh snap.

It's a 'fantasy epic series'.
It doesn't _have_ a 'storyline', it's a fucken soap opera.

>Then there's the debate on whether or not Robb made a mistep with Jeyne or was Frey just being a nigger.

Care to elaborate?

>>3380922
Robb made a mistep, he should've honored his oath to the Frey's since that secures and alliance, and to be honest he should've allied with Stannis to begin with. Robb was warned many times that Walder was a big dickhead, he should've played it cool and kept Jeyne to the side. Nevermind her house is sworn to the fucking Lannisters.

>>3380812
>is Danny's story finally done being shit and ready to start being buckets of fun?

She'll spend 75%, if not 100%, of TWoW faffing about on the DOthraki Sea. Quote me.

Can't wait till Euron fucks her shit up.

>>3380879
I think Martin's elaborate foreshadowing proves that the story is in fact heading somewhere.

In that case there is nothing to debate about - he obviously made a misstep by dishonoring the betrothal with the Frey's. Instead of marrying with a great house he chose to marry with a lordling's daughter who was a vassal of the West.
Robb didn't heed the warnings he was given and that their honor has also been slighted before.

>>3380940
>Euron
Do you think Euron will mess with Victarion's plans somehow?
>inb4 teleporting Daario-Euron
I do believe Euron knew what Victarion would be up to if he had chose to accept his offer to sail east.

Most straightforward would be Victarion marrying Dany, sailing west to help his relative Aegon and winning the Iron Throne, but GRRM never is straightforward.

>>3380951
There's not a chance in hell Victarion manages to out-manoeuvre Euron. I reckon Vic will probably be killed by Mormont or Selmy in TWoW, anyway.

>>3380944
> I think Martin's elaborate foreshadowing proves that the story is in fact heading somewhere.
Soap operas survive solely based on pointless 'elaborate foreshadowing'.
You're an idiot if you think that means the story is heading somewhere. (Or you should watch more soap operas from other genres, I guess.)

Victarion might not out-maneuver Euron, however Damphair is still pro-Victarion and might interfere helping Victarion to get the edge.
inb4 black priest is somehow Damphair helping Victarion.

>>3380977

Everybody seems to think that Moqorro was a black guy.
Really, his skin is just charred to shit.
I think Moqorro is Renly.

>>3380992

>R'hllor is the spirit of the sun
>After his assassination Renly is resurrected with the essence of R'hllor, and becomes his one true prophet
>the process chars his skin
>he now looks like a black guy
>he kills Stannis, who has become the Night's King
>he looks over his brother's corpse eating a peach
>Westeros has been saved by a Gaynigger from Outer Space

Anyone else thinks that GRRM will die of obesity before finishing the series?