/lit/ - Literature

bretty good

6/10 as literature

how about i take a shit and you class that as poetry? How does that score with /lit/?

>>3306975

>that juvenile anger
>denying the realness of the hood's artistic output

>>3306961
Perfect.

>>3306961
Seems like something written by an average high schooler.

Oh look, another rap thread. You guys are so desperate to seek validation for your shit music that you make the "are comics literature?" fags seem self-assured and secure.

>>3307094
from hell is as substantial as any book i dont suppose you've even read a comic because you assume it's all silly faggotry about retards in costumes with powers

>>3307579
>what the hell is this? guys in trenchcoats instead of superheroes? this shit must be deep

>>3307608
feigning ignorance isn't sophisticated humour

Why get past the ebonica?

It's an intrinsic part of the poetry.

So post his best lyric so we can judge hin

>you might have been a crack fiend, (momma)
>but you've allays been a black queen (momma)


tupac is a better poet then most rock stars who are regarded as poets.

I like how sincere and heartfelt his lyrics are, but he doesn't possess much craft.

Why would you want to lay out Tupac's raps, when he's just decent when it comes to lyrics and flow?

>>3307697
because his lyrics are more substantial and interesting than almost any other rapper's?

3/10 - no publishing deal

the best pop lyricist i've come across is mark e smith and his lyrics are not great literature

>>3307701
There are plenty of superior rappers in the abstract and conscious hip-hop game.

>>3307701
>because his lyrics are more substantial and interesting than almost any other rapper's?
>almost any other rapper's

that's only true if you're comparing him to the rappers that sold as well as him. and still Biggie wins.

if i don't like him, i don't like him; it don't mean that I'm hating. but if "rap as literature" is your goal, I don't think he's even on the list. he was a good rapper, though.

>>3307743
>conscious hip-hop

more like self-conscious hip-hop. none of those fags are even close to being as profound as pac.

I don't feel like his lyrics are particularly poetic. I feel like he concentrated more on substance and message... perhaps these were groundbreaking for some people, perhaps his main audience hadn't thought of the issues he was talking about at the time...


ex:
>>Come on come on
>>I see no changes. Wake up in the morning and I ask myself,
>>"Is life worth living? Should I blast myself?"
>>I'm tired of bein' poor and even worse I'm black.
>>My stomach hurts, so I'm lookin' for a purse to snatch.
>>Cops give a damn about a negro? Pull the trigger, kill a nigga, he's a hero.
>>Give the crack to the kids who the hell cares? One less hungry mouth on the welfare.
>>First ship 'em dope & let 'em deal to brothers.
>>Give 'em guns, step back, and watch 'em kill each other.
>>"It's time to fight back", that's what Huey said.
>>2 shots in the dark now Huey's dead.
>>I got love for my brother, but we can never go nowhere
>>unless we share with each other. We gotta start makin' changes.
>>Learn to see me as a brother 'stead of 2 distant strangers.
>>And that's how it's supposed to be.
>>How can the Devil take a brother if he's close to me?
>>I'd love to go back to when we played as kids
>>but things changed, and that's the way it is

I never found his rap to be all that revolutionary. The message I get from this is mainly: violence within the black community is destroying lives and is perpetuated mainly by the establishment that is providing weapons and drugs to the youth, and ironically though the song speaks about changes, and how changes has occurred, the overall idea is that this situation is insurmountable.

But from a literary standpoint? Lot of forced rhyme and assonance. He also uses mirror rhyming a couple times. He uses very simple language and vocabulary. Some interesting rhythm (I like line 6 particularly).

i feel like 2pac's apparent artlessness is actually his music's best quality

My coiled hands around this microphone are lethal
One thought in my cerebral is deeper than a Jeep full of people
MC's are feeble, I came to cause some pandaemonium
Battle a band of phoney MC's and stand the lonely one

Imitator, Intimidator, Stimulator,
Simulator of Data, Eliminator
There's never been a greater,

since the burial of Jesus
Fuck around and catch all of the venereal diseases
My disses will smash a stereo to pieces
My accapella releases
plastic masterpieces through telekinesis

That ease you mentally,
gently, sentimentally,
instrumentally,
With entity,
Dementedly meant to be

Infinte.

You heard of hell
well I was sent from it
I went to it serving a sentence for murderin' instruments
Now I'm trying to repent from it
But when I hear the beat I'm tempted to make another attempt at it

I'm Infinite.

>>3307750
>none of those fags are even close to being as profound as pac
Mos Def, Nas, Atmosphere, Cannibal Ox, El-P, A Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy. The list could go on. Hell, even Kendrick Lamar is all in all a better rapper (as well as a more authentic one, fuck that thugs life bullshit).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TB5WtiOzIk

>>3307794
cannibal ox and early nas are the only ones i will accept. mos def is exactly what i was thinking of when i made the self-conscious comment.

>>3307791

/lit/ likes rap? How come?

I am suprised...

>>3307840
its the most literate and poetic form of music. Dumbass.

Ancientfag here.
My main gripe with rap in general is how monotonous it is. The words always basically say "I am the greatest" or "I've seen some shit" and that's it. The style of delivery is very similar from one rapper to another. A lot of the musical riffs are ripped off from actual songs.
I wouldn't mind that in small doses, if they also actually sang and wrote original melodies and wrote words about other things.
The Beatles wrote "Love Love Me Do" and "Please Please Me", but also "Yesterday" and "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Hey Jude" and "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da" which are all very different lyrically.
Don't want to make this a white vs. black thing, so let me add that I find Eminem just as boring as Snoop Dog (or Lion or whatever), and I find Earth, Wind and Fire just as interesting and varied as the Beatles.

not literature

>>3307844
Calm down, you faggy twat

>>3307845
see
>>3307796

if you lay out bob dylan's lyrics, right
how does he score with /lit/?

>>3307791
good rap, shit poetry

>>3307840
i like some rap as pop music. i have never heard any rap that has genuine literary value. i have never heard any pop music that has consistent literary value in the lyrics.

there is a reason people become pop musicians rather than writers...

I'm >>3307746, but I'll grant that this >>3307681 is true. In spades.

>>3307852
5/10

>>3307845
>he likes the beatles and earth, wind and fire

could you be any uncooler?

>>3307845
i like rap (used to like it more than id do) and agree with your points. the pleasure in rap is the sound of the words and the flow of them and the occasional odd/weird/funny simile, also the beats of course. if you want thematic depth or genuine insight the art of under-educated semi-literate males who smoke a disproportionate amount of weed is not the stuff to pay attention to.

>>3307852
He's one of the greatest. Even if he massively stole from other poets, but well... who doesn't. Some may call this "being influenced".

>>3307845
I agree with you, it still remains my favorite genre.

>>3307881

>He's one of the greatest

i don;t know how you can say that. i've only heard dylans big ones from the 60s till around blood on the tracks but there was not any great poetry in those records to my mind

>>3307870
Indeed I couldn't.
But I wonder what exactly happened to African-American music. Even if you don't like EWF, you can see that there is a huge difference between, say, pre-1985 African-American music (Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Nat Cole, Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, the Motown scene, Jimi Hendrix, EWF, the disco scene, Michael Jackson) and post-1985 (the rappers).
It seems that there was some kind of rejection of all that that earlier music stood for and thus of the whole idea of musicality. Sometimes I say that rap is the anti-blues: blues singers sang about their woman leaving them, having no money, etc. while rappers rap about having all the pussy they want, handing out hundred-dollar bills and drinking Hennessy.
I just wish that rap would die a natural death or at least bring in some more melody, singing and more varied lyrics.

>>3307852

Ignore his lyrics and listen to this then judge his poetry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0OdNY8Aybw

>>3307893
I meant one of the greatest lyricists in music.

>but there was not any great poetry in those records to my mind
Then you should listen to them again.

Also:
Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, King Crimson (Pete Sinfield, Richard Palmer-James), Procul Harum (Keith Reid) and Kayo Dot (Jason Byron)

>>3307940
which songs have great poetry in the lyrics?

>>3306961
>get past the ebonica
>this isn't white peoply enough
>dismissing a poets culture and form of expression and thereby castrating his work

Check your racism.

Is there some website that can translate the ebonics?

>>3307845
I'm not a hiphop fan, but as I understand it, the genre originated from DJs' improvised commentary, so sampling other songs was there from the start, before it evolved into a more independent form of music. It was never conceived of as "ripping off" because it wasn't some kind of secret plagiarism.
As for "monotony" and "actually singing," rap is vocal percussion. If you don't think it counts as music, you should also be complaining about the existence of drumming.

>>3307932

I listened to 3 minutes. That is very mediocre poetry in my opinion.

>>3307957
fo sho ma man with the plizzy, just hedizzle over to wizzy wizzy wizzy dizzle translizzlemynizzle dizzle cozzle ya feel?

>>3307750
Lol, Pac's a bitch for deep white kids. BIG's a million times more talented.

Also, I think that music as we know it today is a progression of poetry wherein standardized meter gives way to the song's rhythm. This is basically true for any genre.

Check it.
http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/leftovercrack/clearchannelfuckoff.html

>>3307852
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/itsalrightmaimonlybleeding.html

>>3307951
>obsessively supporting ebonica
>obsessively being highlighting pro-whiteness
>obsessively approving a poets culture and form of expression and thereby acknowledging his work

Check your marxism.

I guess his class struggle shit has some merit, even if they are low grade observations.

>>3307983
His lyrics are more interesting as insights into his mind than as actual social commentary or whatever.

>>3307969
I'm not american. I'm very insecure with the ebonic type of music. I can't understand anything, i hardly get english, (have to translate much). It isn't my native language, thats why I wanted to translate. i don't see how that is soo bad..why are you sarcastic??

>>3307975
Also, Check out Talib Kweli for powerful lyricism

>>3307999
>can't understand black people

you're not missing much.

>>3307989
You mean the hypocritical and paradoxical gangsta shtick?

>>3307989
sounds like some marxist-type mental acrobatics, striving to legitimize it. Asking a marxist about rap is like asking a christian about "christian science". They will never acknowledge it as pure idiotic garbage, made for idiots by idiots.

>>3307957
rap genius

>>3307976
>calling ebonics ebonica

>>3308011
But I do

I'm not sure you understand Marxism

>>3308010
Yeah. His relationship with masculinity and authenticity is interesting as hell.

>>3307845
pushing-40-fag here. I grew up with rap and rock.

you make a good argument, but it makes me think that the good stuff isn't getting to you, because I'm pretty over "I am the greatest" or "I've seen some shit" too, though there's great stuff there, particularly when that territory hadn't been mined as much.

disagree about the style of delivery being uniform. like >>3307880 touched on, rapping ain't singing, it's more similar to public speaking as entertainment, similar to stand-up comedy. comics all get up in front of a brick wall with a bottled-water on a stool and talk about their lives and observations. but Carlin is not Gabriel Iglaseis.

also,
>A lot of the musical riffs are ripped off from actual songs.
that's the entire history of music and culture generally. when the technology caught up to our need to repeat ourselves, we invented DJ techniques to do it and samplers. before that, it was cover songs, 12 bar blues, the oral tradition, etc.. the collage aesthetic is what is interesting about hiphop. re-contextualization is hot since the 60s and 70s up to now. if you're not into it, that's fine, but it's valid. Warhol, Lichtenstien, and DuChamp and Picasso much earlier, saw that it was the vanguard and were respected for it (eventually.) hip hoppers and 4Chan are reviled for it, but it's the same concept.

>>3307951

>Check your racism.

Shit.... oh phew, it's still there. You had me worried a sec. I thought a nig-nog might have stolen it.

>>3308011
>Implying I'm a marxist

>>3308046
>A lot of the musical riffs are ripped off from actual songs.
You shouldn't even try to justify this because it makes zero difference to the listener and it's a retarded, irrelevant argument.
>"this sounds worse because it's stolen"
You can only use it to question the artist's authenticity, which is also irrelevant to how much you enjoy the output.

>postmodern era
>complaining about recontextualization

>>3307971
I wouldn't want to listen to drum solos except as the occasional novelty, and I wouldn't want to listen to rap except as the occasional novelty.

>>3308046
My complaint about riffs being "stolen" was not really to complain about them being stolen, it was to lament the lack of originality. Why can't they write their own riffs?
If it were doing it as an interesting commentary on the original work, as Warhol and Lichtenstein were doing, then I could see it. But taking the riff from "Super Freak" and putting "I am the greatest" lyrics to it is just stupid (to name the first example that comes to this oldfag's mind).

If you were to look at the best lyricists of any genre of music, they would still be mediocre to middling poets.

>>3308131
>But taking the riff from "Super Freak" and putting "I am the greatest" lyrics to it is just stupid
agreed. that's the worst rap. you like melodic music and cite Beatles and EWF, not brittney spears or New Kids on the Block. fucking MC Hammer is not representative of my argument, but I'm not going to debate you anymore because you choose to remain willfully ignorant.

>>3308131
That raw sampling style isn't very common these days anyway. It made more sense in the early days of electronic/hip-hop music when technology was more primitive. Now it's usually composed from scratch or twisted beyond recognition ("raw samples" are usually used "consciously").

>>3307670
I agree with this. A lot of great literature from the African-American canon includes ebonica. I don't think it should be constantly regarded as ignorant, especially if the writer is able to switch between that an prosier language, like Junot Diaz does in The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao.

if ee cummings can write with no punctuation then 2Pac can write in ebonics

Ok, look, the greatest rap lyricist is Dre + Snoop.

Their lyrics are truly beautiful, complex, intelligent, fun, and entertaining.

If you're a student of the Bard's Sonnets, you will find that Snoop + Dre used almost every single one of Shakespeare's techniques. And probably more skillfully.

Here's nuthin but a g thang's lyrics with my commentary:

>"Nuthin But A "G" Thang"
(feat. Snoop Doggy Dogg)

The title alone is a complex construction. Words are being spelled incorrectly to denote class, pronunciation, ethnic group. The meaning alone is interesting. Dre and Snoop are constructing a fantasy of what it means to be a "G". The music video (directed by Dre) enhances and extends the atmosphere of the song.

>[Snoop Doggy Dogg]
One, two, three and to the fo'
Snoop Doggy Dogg and Dr. Dre are at the do'
Ready to make an entrance, so back on up
(Cause you know we 'bout had to rip shit up)

The first line establishes the structure of the music they're about to perform. On top of this is grafted a metaphor of knocking at a door. They're about to "make an entrance" at the metaphorical door. They are also about to introduce this new musical, narrative, and thematic concept. You need to "back on up" because they're about to introduce something extremely important.

>[Hook: Snoop Doggy Dogg]

>It's like this and like that and like this and uh
>It's like that and like this and like that and uh
>It's like this and like that and like this and uh
>Dre, creep to the mic like a phantom

The line in the chorus, "It's like this and like that and like this and uh" is a reference to itself. It's saying, here is the musical structure of this song, repeated over and over as the chorus. Dre "creep[s] to the mic like a phantom" because he is about to deliver transcendent art. Yes, this is a huge buildup, but this song basically invents an entire genre of music (intentionally!) so it's warranted.

>[Dr. Dre]
>Well I'm peepin', and I'm creepin', and I'm creep-in'
>But I damn near got caught, 'cause my beeper kept beepin'
>Now it's time for me to make my impression felt
>So sit back, relax, and strap on your seatbelt
>You never been on a ride like this befo'
>With a producer who can rap and control the maestro
>At the same time with the dope rhyme that I kick
>You know, and I know, I flow some ol funky shit
>To add to my collection, the selection
>Symbolizes dope, take a toke, but don't choke
>If ya' do, ya' have no clue
>O' what me and my homey Snoop Dogg came to do

Just gaze in wonder here at all the metaphors Dre conjures. They sometimes overlap. A single line like "You never been on a ride like this befo'" has a literal meaning all by itself, but it also works with the metaphors established in the proceeding and later line. And those other lines *have different metaphors*!

>>3306961

>get past the ebonica

Racist even when you're trying not to be, heh.

>[Hook: Snoop Doggy Dogg & Dr. Dre]

>It's like this and like that and like this and uh
>It's like that and like this and like that and uh
>It's like this, and we ain't got no love for those
>So jus' chill, 'til the next episode

Now a metaphor of a television show. This can obviously mean a great many things. One of the more interesting interpretations is that Dre + Snoop are purposely giving you a fantasy.

>[Snoop Doggy Dogg]
>Fallin' back on that ass with a hellified gangsta' lean
>Gettin' funky on the mic like a' old batch o' >collard greens
>It's the capital S, oh yes, the fresh N-double O-P
>D-O-double G-Y D-O-double G ya' see
>Showin' much flex when it's time to wreck a mic
>pimpin' ho's and clockin' a grip like my name was Dolomite
>Yeah, and it don't quit
>I think they in a mood for some mothafuckin' G shit
>So Dre. (What up Dogg?)
>We gotta give 'em what dey want (What's that, G?)
>We gotta break 'em off somethin' (Hell yeah)
>And it's gotta be bumpin' (City of Compton!)

There is a curious self-awareness to these last three lines, almost as if it's acknowledged that a product is being crafted for an audience to enjoy and consume. Notice the conceit is a behind-the-scenes conversation about the very song they're currently performing. Meta to say the least.

I missed a few lines, so I'll go back:

>Ain't nothin' but a G thang, baaaaabay!
>Two loc'ed out G's so we're craaaaazay!
>Death Row is the label that paaaaays me!
>Unfadable, so please don't try to fade this
(Hell yeah)

"Unfadable"? Like the Bard, Dre + Snoop invent words.

>But, uh, back to the lecture at hand
>Perfection is perfected, so I'm 'a let 'em understand
>From a young G's perspective
>And before me dig out a bitch I have ta' find a contraceptive
>You never know she could be earnin' her man,
>And learnin' her man, and at the same time burnin' her man

earnin', learnin', burnin'. Beautiful. Notice how this could mean a great many things including venereal disease. Contrast with the Bard's, "love's fire heats water".

>Now you know I ain't wit that shit, Lieutenant
>Ain't no pussy good enough to get burnt while I'm up in it
>(yeah) Now that's realer than real-deal Holyfield
>And now all you hookas and ho's know how I feel
>Well if it's good enough to get broke off a proper chunk
>I'll take a small piece of some of that funky stuff

These lines are dense with meaning. Notice that there is a difference between "hookas" and "hos". Military imagery is conjured. A champion boxer. Drug use is compared to sex. You get a vivid and complex image of how Snoop feels about women.

>>3310302
comedy gold

>[Dr. Dre]
>It's where it takes place so I'm a ask your attention

I love the use of present tense. Also, saying It's, instead of This. The usage calls attention to the moment.

>Mobbin like a mothafucka but I ain't lynchin
>Droppin' the funky shit that's makin the sucka niggaz mumble
>When I'm on the mic, it's like a cookie, they all crumble
>Try to get close, and your ass'll get smacked
>My mothafuckin homie Doggy Dogg has my back
>Never let me slip, 'cause if I slip, then I'm slippin'
>But if I got my Nina, then you know I'm straight trippin'
>And I'm a continue to put the rap down, put the mack down
>And if your bitches talk shit, I have ta' put the smack down
>Yeah, and ya' don't stop
>I told you I'm just like a clock when I tick and I tock
>But I'm never off, always on, 'til the break dawn
>C-O-M-P-T-O-N, and the city they call Long Beach
>Puttin' the shit together
>Like my nigga D.O.C., no one can do it better

Just a wonderful assortment of references. He's like a clock. He's also always on. Or, is it the recording that's always available? Meta. Wonderful use of language here. Like the rest of the song. There's a reference to what could be violence, but he says if he has his "Nina" he'd be "trippin'", so perhaps he's condemning violence.


>[Hook: Dr. Dre & Snoop Doggy Dogg]

>Like this, that and this and uh
>It's like that and like this and like that and uh
>It's like this, and we ain't got no love for those

I think this line should be "we ain't got no love for hos" - a mistake.

>So jus' chill, 'til the next episode

Again, conjuring the metaphor of fictional TV. Meta.

This song is a defining moment in American music. Dre single handedly invents a new genre pretty much intentionally. Language is playful, violent, misogynistic (possibly), and full of metaphors. This is closer to Bob Dylan than Sugar Hill Gang.

I'm done. Just want to end with, if you want to study rap music as a literary form, look at Dr. Dre. Eminem's stuff is great as well.

Good line by line analysis:

http://www.understandrap.com/dr-dre/chronic/nuthin-g-thang

>>3307791
You just cannot fucking deny that flow, though.

>>3310302
Damn good critique.

I don't think we should be judging Pac's lyrics "as poetry." Rap was meant to exist to sampled beats. Flow, instrumentation, and the way he spits are intrinsic parts of the work and its message. We should not divorce the lyrics from these aspects.

>>3310395
wisdom