/lit/ - Literature

read it.
save a screenshot of your question.
then come back to it occasionally for a good laugh.

Haven't read it, thinking of starting Neuromancer though, been avoiding it for the same reason.

It seems for some reason that sci-fi is a genre better suited for media like comic books and vidya rather than novels. I could be wrong, but I have yet to read anything that left a good impression on me.

Do Androids Dream of Electric Ship was also a failure and a disappointment. I only read it because I was a fan of the movie, but it doesn't hold a fucking candle to it.

Yeah, sorta. The writing really isn't very good and the plot will probably make you say 'wut', if you're used to things that make sense. I don't mean it's confusing, just that the main character is invincible and no one actually acts like a human being, which maybe was intentional, maybe not. If you like or at all interested in science fiction, dune is pretty much a must read. You can't really claim to be a sci fi fan without having read it

>Is this stuff any good
Yes.
>I'm thinking of buying a copy if /lit/ approves
It is but that shouldn't be a factor in the decision, why would you care?
>but the writing itself is shit from a literary standpoint
He was a good writer and as so, it's a brilliantly crafted universe. There are a lot of highly skilled science fiction writers.

>>3181717
Huh? Seems like a valid question.
Good ideas are a dime a dozen, but it takes good execution to make them worth reading about.

Haven't read it, thinking of starting Neuromancer though, been avoiding it for the same reason.

It seems for some reason that sci-fi is a genre better suited for media like comic books and vidya rather than novels. I could be wrong, but I have yet to read anything that left a good impression on me.

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep was also a failure and a disappointment. I only read it because I was a fan of the movie, but it doesn't hold a fucking candle to it.

>>3181725
>that sci-fi is a genre better suited for media like comic books and vidya rather than novels
>I only read it because I was a fan of the movie, but it doesn't hold a fucking candle to it

Why are you even here?

>Sci-fi general
>posts Dune
It's fantasy with a thin layer of intergalactic adventure
>>3181725
I hate books
Have no fear. The guy who directed Splice and Cube is directing the Nueromancer move with Liam Neeson as Armitage and Marky Mark as Case.

>>3181725
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep was miles above Blade Runner. Shit son do you even books?

>>3181737
I love reading, and in most cases the book is better than the movie (usually because the movies completely miss the point), but in this case I'm beginning to believe sci-fi is something that's not meant to be confined to text, either because there are things that can't be expressed through text alone, or because the authors who are capable of coming up with those things also happen not to be very good at expressing them through text alone. Whichever the case, every sci-fi I've ever read seems to confirm this.

>>3181756
>usually because the movies completely miss the point

Like Blade Runner? The only reason that film is good is due to its direction/art direction. Did you even finish Androids?

>>3181740
The wahlrus is playing case? I approve of that casting

>>3181769
Listen to this man.

>>3181769
>Did you even finish Androids?
Yes, my point wasn't how much of it the movie accurately portrayed, it was that the book was horribly written. And that I'm beginning to believe that maybe it isn't possible to write a good sci-fi novel, even though I love novels and I love sci-fi as a genre.

>>3181769
>Did you even finish Androids?
Yes, my point wasn't how much of it the movie accurately portrayed, it was that the book was horribly written. And that I'm beginning to believe that maybe it isn't possible to write a good sci-fi novel, even though I love novels and I love sci-fi as a genre. If it is possible, I've yet to see an example.

>>3181781
Pic's for your uncultured ass bro.
I'd say it's pretty obvious you only enjoy sci-fi for it's science fiction only.

>>3181781
>the book was horribly written
Sorry to hear it wasn't up to your quality standards that usually shine through in video games and comics.

Just because you prefer the film's take on the book doesn't mean it's horribly written. The film glosses over a lot and bombards you with stunning visuals, that's what you want to see. You just need to reconcile yourself with the idea that you don't enjoy crafting the imagery in your head.

>>3181717
(what was meant:) yes.
the writing is as good as the idea behind it.
it is good, the writing.
the writing. it is good.
good is the writing.
writing heap good.
verily, verily.
go ahead and read it, op.

>>3181796
>quality standards that usually shine through in video games and comics.
you'd be surprised

>You just need to reconcile yourself with the idea that you don't enjoy crafting the imagery in your head.
For the third time, I love reading novels, so that's not the problem. It's just that they are usually so horribly written that you can tell that writing is not the author's strong suit, even though the idea behind it is brilliant.

>>3181809
>you'd be surprised
Surprise me.

>It's just that they are usually so horribly written that you can tell that writing is not the author's strong suit
Alright, just as an exercise and to try and ascertain the validity of your claims, what exactly is so horrible about his writing?

It is the greatest science fiction novel ever written.

People who are wrong will disagree.

>>3181809
As a poster from /co/, /I'm/ surprised that you seem to think scifi is somehow much better in comics and video games than in books. What are you basing this on? Poorly structured stories and wonky narrative, or maybe the forced dialogue and character interactions? What video games and comics are you referring to here? There's a a few gems, without a doubt, but not enough to say, definitively, that either medium is better than books.

>>3181822
That Mass Effect 3 man. Don't you know it has legendary prose?

>>3181822
I'm assuming he's talking about comic book adaptations as well. There's no denying there's fantastic sci-fi in comics but video games? I don't even...

I've always thought that Dune was more fantasy than sci-fi.
It's not sci-fi in the traditional sense, anyway. It is a great book though, both the book itself and the idea behind it.

I haven't read either Neuromancer or Androids but I hear they are also pretty neat.

>>3181844
>I've always thought that Dune was more fantasy than Sci-Fi
I once tried to explain to a friend that Star Wars was fantasy in a futuristic setting. He got so offended he quit speaking to me for a few days. No real point to that little anecdote. I just felt like sharing. ;_;

I love how everyone in this thread seems to think that sci-fi only means high sci-fi.

Novels like 1984, Brave New World and even Flowers for Algernon would definitely qualify as sci-fi, and they are all magnificent pieces of literary genius.

Also, I know this is /lit/ but there are some excellently written video games out there, so know that there is definitely more to the medium than pulp like CoD. Comic books are still at their earlier stages, but there are the occasional literary masterpieces like Watchmen. Just saying.

>>3181880
>there are some excellently written video games out there
Such as?
>Comic books are still at their earlier stages
I'd say it's the other way around.

>>3181880
Sure there are, but not enough to say that they work better in comics and video games than in books. That's what the conversation has been about, at least as far as I'm concerned. Of course there are well written and excellent works in both mediums. As for Watchmen, Moore is entertaining, but I wouldn't quite go that far. It /will/ be fun to watch the next few years though, what with big names doing more creator owned work now that they realize the two big publishers are absolute shit to work for.

I've been meaning to get into Isaac Asimov and Stanislaw Lem, been hearing lots of positive things about them, but then people will like just about anything, so I can't be sure.

What does /lit/ think? I like to think that we're better read than a great deal of the internet, so I trust you won't be fanboying out about them just because you happened to read them when you were a kid and thinking about them gives you the nostalgias. Doesn't help either that most asimov fanboys are also trekfags.

>>3181894
>>there are some excellently written video games out there
>Such as?

Not who you're replying to, but Braid is generally considered good enough to be thought of as literature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid_%28video_game%29

>>3181894
Hot Coffee.

>>3181935
>Braid is a platform and puzzle video game
>Tim is a man searching for a princess who "has been snatched by a horrible and evil monster."

You'll have to elaborate

>>3181943
>tfw you plunged too early

>>3181961
The plunger is the most difficult level by far. So hard to hit that sweet spot.

>>3181950
You have to play the game to get the full impact. Technically though, that is what the story is about, though the entire thing is a metaphor. In any case, I don't think it's ever relieved a negative review, and the story is one reason why.

>>3181950
There's supposed to be some metaphor about nuclear arms. I call bullshit.

Don't bother with videogames for a decade or two yet. There's not much there. What is there is firmly in the babby's first intellectual thoughts category. You'll just be wasting your time.

>>3181894
There are plenty of story based games.

Braid like another person said.

Bastion is a good, subtle story game, really draws you in.

Video games have the benefit of being more visual, so it's easy for them to convey themes, but they definitely exist.

Even in mainstream games like Skyrim, there is so much writing in that game, there are full books all over the place that are pretty passable, and especially impressive considering they are a small part of the game.

>>3182053
careful there, your newfag is showing

>>3182059
by full books do mean 5-10 pages? because that's what they contain

>>3182059
>... Skyrim ... there are full books all over the place that are pretty passable

So ... you'd rather spend 20 hours reading mediocre shit in a game, than reading a proper book? What is wrong with you?

>Bastion

Is a fun game, has great music, and has some cool story moments. It's a really great game. Does not match up to good books, however.

>Braid

Is shit.

Bastion is really the only game I'd recommend. It's the closest that videogames have come to fulfilling their promise.

>it's impossible to have a well-written science fiction novel
>but what about masterpieces like 1984 and Brave New World?
>to hell with science fiction! let's talk about VIDEO GAMES!

this thread depresses me

>>3182075
Some may consider The Legend of Zelda series trite, but I find it wonderful, and it has inspired me in much the same way literature has.

>>3182074
/lit/ is a much better place to talk about video games as a literature level medium than /v/ is though.

>>3182053
It's a metaphor for naturalism and nuclear physics. Sort of. It is a very clever game, the writing as well as the game itself.

>>3182085
probably but it just fucking depresses me when a dude dismisses the entirety of written science fiction and fantasy in favor of fucking skyrim or braid

like, seriously, what the fuck is that shit? it's not the talking about video games that annoys me so much as the way it's being talked about in opposition to written sf&f which i find really dumb and aggravating

>>3182090
Why are you getting upset at what is obviously an idiot or a child?

>>3182098
good point, good point. kind of one of those things where you come in at the middle of a thread, and see people being really stupid without having the full understanding of the history of the thread to understand that they are idiot children.

>>3182059
skyrim is shit, they worked better in oblivion/morrowind though.
another good example is mass effect saga, the characters are amazing, there are tons of read about the universe and the plot is great too ( except for the last few minutes of the game, but you can overlook that because of the overall experience, or you can read on some player theories about the ending ( one of them is really convincing, it's like the writers were trying to show another ending to very thorough players and leave mainstream ending for everyone else))
the theory : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

>>3182104
So your position here is that the Mass Effect games (and more generally, science fiction video games in general) are better than published science fiction literature. I just want to be clear that this is what you're claiming.

I'm also curious about what SF the people arguing against the genre have actually read.

>this thread

I was really interested because if there's two things I love discussing, it's science fiction and video games. But then I read the thread.

>>3182096
It's just a hipster super mario bros.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxXkcg-stLE

Games aren't a good medium for telling stories, the gameplay just gets in the way.

>>3182116
Not that guy, but wow you take that out of context, he's only arguing they compare, not that they are better.

>>3182104
>the characters are amazing, there are tons of read about the universe and the plot is great too
>mass effect

I uh... wow I don't even know what to say to this. I'm glad you enjoyed the series to such an extent, but I have to vehemently disagree. I found the Mass Effect trilogy beyond the first game to be around the same quality as a shitty SciFi channel show. The "moral choices" were all incredibly trite, the characters were fairly generic archetypes, the universe was a stock standard space opera environment, and the plot felt schizophrenic and lazy.

If you like space opera, though, I'd really recommend some Peter F. Hamilton.

>>3182117
The thread has kind of wound up nowhere.

Let's get back to written science fiction and direct all the ME fans elsewhere, /lit/.

>>>/v/

>>3182090
As far as I've read, nothing negative has been said about fantasy in this thread.

The problem with sci-fi, in my opinion, is that so far it has failed to produce the equivalent of lotr or even pleb fiction like asoiaf.

I'll just come out and say that every sci-fi book I've read so far has been pulp. Despite its promise, it is a greatly underdeveloped genre, at least in the written medium.

>>3182122
The arguments that I can see: science fiction is not well-suited for novels; video games are better suited for science fiction than novels; Mass Effect is an excellent example of a video game with a good science-fiction story.

It's hardly a crazy extrapolation to get where I got. And it's exactly why the set of arguments he's used are fucking stupid: because they get us to a place where he's defending a fairly unoriginal space opera which would be considered dull and hackneyed had it been published as an example of really good SF/.

>>3182138
What science fiction have you read? Since you feel you've read enough to make broad claims about the genre as a whole.

>>3182119
I disagree. Games can be a great means of storytelling if you let the gameplay actually shape the narrative, and I mean beyond arbitrary moral choices a la Bioware.

Hell, I'd say the best games for storytelling are open sandbox games like Dwarf Fortress. There's no established plot there, the player and their interactions with the NPC dwarves provides the narrative as it goes along, and the result can be quite entertaining. I don't know how many DwarfFort story threads I've read over on /v/ or /vg/, but they're always really interesting. There's too much of a force within the games industry compelling developers to construct their games like films, they're really missing the potential for what could be a revolutionary storytelling medium.

>>3182142
>Mass Effect is an excellent example of a video game with a good science-fiction story.

Seriously, GTFOO /lit/.

>>3182138
Consider who science fiction is written for, though. Smart people make only a tiny fraction of the population. Even stupid people can appreciate fantasy.

Anyway, science fiction will become the predominant genre soon enough as more people become technologically savvy and the genre becomes more relevant to everyday life.

>>3182147
Right, but that's not an example of a game which contains a narrative, it's an example of the player interpreting a narrative from the events of the game, which is different, to me.

Still interesting. But it doesn't mean that "games are good at storytelling and narrative" because the game is leaving the storytelling and narrative up to the player. Same with sports simulation or nationbuilding games.

>>3182154
That's my gloss on his argument, not an argument I am myself advancing. Because it's clearly wrong and dumb.

>>3182074
What could you possibly have against 1984 and Brave New World?

>>3182156
I suppose you're right. I'd just argue that because of this, you have to view games in a different context to books/films/other linear means of telling a story. Games have one thing none of these mediums as yet have, which is interactivity. At least on a scale never before realised.

>>3182164
Using them as the sole examples of science fiction that is good is busted as fuck. I mean, I generally think they're fine if a little basic in terms of their speculation, but saying "No, no, guys, science fiction is clearly good because we have 1984 and BNW" is an argument that I scorn on.

>>3182168
Which is true. But the standard /lit/ argument is that this very interactivity hinders the ability for the game (as opposed to the player) to create a narrative.

Will I be flamed for saying Half-Life 2 tells a good story?

>>3182171
Listing all of the science fiction that has merit would take a really long time ...

>>3182171
Making value judgments on an entire genre is stupid. Hell, I would hesitate before saying that teen paranormal romance is entirely irredeemable trash.

That said, I've read a lot of science fiction that I consider really great.

>>3182178
No, but I disagree that it "tells" a good story. It gives you a window into a really interesting set of ideas, but I'd say the storytelling of Half-Life has always been rather obscured and left in the background. The sequence of events that make up the games always seemed sort of disconnected from the wider narrative of trans-dimensional shenanigans that I found really interesting.

>>3182179
Right, I agree. I think part of the problem is that if you use BNW and 1984, it kind of has the effect of shitting on the genre as a whole, because you're saying "all the things that are published as genre SF are bad, but some things that are more mainstream are good." I think. I mean, that's explicitly what the guy who brought up 1984 and BNW was saying.

>>3182180
Me too, anon. Me too. I'm saying it's good for reasons other than BNW and 1984.

>>3182187
True.

And video games that tell(rather than show) their story usually are not very well received by gamers. Leaving this disagreement on whether or not video games can "tell good stories" to last into perpetuity.

>>3182188
... I kind of have to agree with that, unfortunately. A lot of the harder sci-fi is just terribly written. Even a lot of softer sci-fi is terribly written. The sci-fi that I consider good is the sci-fi that transcends the genre, more often than not.

But then, I think that about every genre. Genre writing is often terrible. Almost exclusively, it's the writing that manages to be more than its genre that I consider good.

>>3182222
I don't know what you mean by "transcend the genre" or what you've read so it's hard to say whether I agree with you. But, I mean, it kind of sounds like you're doing the old "anything bad is genre, anything good transcends the genre" thing. What about the New Wave writers? Do they transcend the genre? Sam Delany? M John Harrison? Thomas M Disch?

>>3182222
Okay, what would you recommend as good books that also happen to fall under the sci-fi category, apart from 1984, BNW and Flowers for Algernon?

>implying Call of Duty 4 isn't the GOAT video game narrative

>>3182238
Light, by M John Harrison. The Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand, by Samuel Delany. Camp Concentration by Thomas M Disch. Collected short stories of James Tiptree. Collected short stories of Ted Sturgeon. Collected short stories of Harlan Ellison. This Immortal, by Roger Zelazny. Stand on Zanzibar, John Brunner. Several works by Brian Aldiss. Collected short stories of Ted Chiang. Collected short stories of Michael Bishop. Stations of the Tide, Michael Swanwick. Work of Ursula K Leguin.

Off the top of my head and incomplete, but I'd say most of that is pretty good.

>>3182229
Those books that don't transcend genres are small, in execution and/or ideas. I mean, I love Issac Asimov's ideas, but he's a terrible writer. Someone like Lem has good ideas and good execution. His words aren't just words, they're the way they are for a reason (making some allowance for translation, obviously). His ideas aren't just there for the entertainment value of What if?, they're there because they tell us a poignant story about the clash of our species and technology. Douglas Adams doesn't just write sci-fi, he writes comedy, he's smart, he has gems worth entire books wrapped up in short, witty sentences. Dune isn't just a tale about weird dust, it's about politics, and psychology, and technology, and culture ...

Bad sci-fi is to good sci-fi as ... Mars Attacks is to Moon. That's a lazy example, but you get the point.

>>3182252
>>3182252
That's fair enough. But then I'd say that there's a good amount of stuff that's published as science fiction (in the way that 1984 and BNW were not) that still 'transcends the genre' in your terms. (Don't know if you really argued against this position, just saying)

>>3182257
>>3182222

Can someone actually list some "genre transcending" scifi? Otherwise stop it.

>>3182238
Dune (I know people will argue that it's not sci-fi; I'll point out that there's plenty of technology, some of it incredibly futuristic)
Flowers for Algernon
Oryx and Crake
1984
Brave New World
We
The Lost World (the plot doesn't stick together, but the ideas are brilliant, he's a competent writer, and the book has some big questions to take away)
Le Guin's stuff
Never Let Me Go
Into The Forest
etc.

>>3182279
Oh shit forgot
Douglas Adams

>>3182298
And
Solaris
Any of Lem's stuff, really