/lit/ - Literature

Run away OP, this thread will end in tears.

>>3151460
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MON2HL02mec&feature=related

>>3151504
I was hoping to avoid this by not posting on /pol/

>>3151505
thanks, will watch it. still would appreciate some book suggestions too

The "conflict" in a nutshell.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

>>3151523
>>3151524
These are clearly both unbiased sources.

>>3151523
I never had a real look into the history of the conflict. Is this picture legit or is it a troll?

After WW2 all the Jews living in nice countries decided it would be nicer in a shitty country. They waited till the Palestinians went to work and while they were gone they broke into their houses and started to live there. Then when the Palestinians came back to get their houses the Jews called America and America saved them from the angry Palestineans.

>>3151527
The biggest problem with that picture is that it ignores that from it's birth Isreals largest source of income has been aid from western nations. Krav Maga has a whole section based around using an M16 in martial combat. M16.

Charles D. Smith - Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict: A History with Documents

Best overview of the conflict.

>>3151527
>Is this picture legit or is it a troll?

It's silly bullshit.

>>3151460
>tfw antisemitism is instinctive among all peoples

>>3151528
so much this.

>>3151530
No, the biggest problem is Comic fucking Sans.

I've studied the conflict in a university setting for some time now, and the core issue is really quite simple: a foreign population is squatting on land that belonged to others in the very recent past, and some of those others are willing to use everything at their disposal (including violence) to stop this from happening. My current professor is a conservative Israeli, and he's a fine guy and everything, but I just can't bring myself to sympathize with his side very much at all.

That being said, read about the conflict and reach your own conclusions. There's plenty of interesting history surrounding it.

>>3151578
>americans take land from the natives
>perfectly legitimate
>jews take back land that their people have lived in for centuries
>EVIL OCCUPIERS!!!!! GET OUT OF PALESTINIAN LAND!!!

Israel is just as legitimate as America is. The Japanese weren't the first people to inhabit Japan, so is their country not legitimate?

>>3151590
>Natives sell land to Americans
>Get small pox and die
>To sick to effectively voice their sellers remorse
>Now live comfortably on reserves

Compare to

>Jews forcibly displace Palestinians
>Recieve support from America to quell arab retaliation
>Continue to oppress non-jews every day

>>3151590
>America
>legitimate

>>3151590
>jews take back
>take back

The land was never taken from them by Arabs. The Arabs took it from the Byzantines.

>that their people have lived in for centuries

Maintaining a nominal presence in a region that your purported ancestors ruled thousands of years ago doesn't leave the door open for you to come and conquer it any time you'd like.

Besides these inaccuracies, your comparison is asinine. You'd have us ignore 200 years of history, wars, and developments in international relations and law. Whether or not Israel's founding was 'legitimate', their claim to any land acquired by conquest isn't. Allowing the 1967 borders to be the basis of negotiations is already generous on the part of the Palestinians, as far as I'm concerned.

In all honesty, you will end up sympathizing with Palestine, and rightly so. Read some Derschowitz, Chomsky, and Finkelstein. They are the biggest figures in the I-P conflict.

Jews got prosecuted during WWII, so they left for Palestine. Lots of broken promises and the Jews receiving more land than they should have.

Just bomb the entire shithole, fuck the Arabs and Jews

>>3151590

The Unites States has universal suffrage and equal rights for all, including Native Americans. Native Americans are citizens of America. Israel is occupying the Palestinians who have no such rights.

Moral standards have changed since that period. Did you know that slavery was legal in America at the time America was taking land from the Natives? Nowadays we recognize that slavery is wrong and it is no longer practiced. Does the fact that slavery was once legal entitle you to go and put a person into slavery? No it does not, and the treatment of Native Americans in the past does not entitle you to conduct the same acts today against the Palestinians.

>>3151610
>They are the biggest figures in the I-P conflict.

In what sense?

>>3151632
>Moral standards have changed since that period.
>it was ok when we did it, but now it's not anymore

>>3151634
They are the loudest about it. Regularly hold talks that hundreds of people could to, there are shitloads of debates between them (Finkelstein and Chomsky are pro-Palestine, Derschowitz is pro-israel) on Youtube, and they have released the most books on the topics (at least that have reached the mainstream).

At least you wouldn't go wrong starting with them, and then beyond that looking up the history and being critical yourself.

>>3151613
>Jews got prosecuted during WWII
>prosecuted
Jews, this court charges you with conspiracy to promote race-mixing, usery and the death of Jesus Christ. How do you plead?

>>3151635

Just like slavery.

>>3151613
>prosecuted

>>3151636
>could to
I meant go to*

>>3151636

I think Dershowitz, at least, is a waste of time. There are other Zionist scholars who are less propagandistic. Benny Morris, for starters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians
these guys are generally believable
they are generally zionists, but they acknowledge all the bad shit, justifying it with the fact that every country is founded by being exclusionary assholes (which is not a horrible argument)
even finkelstein acknowledges that these guys aren't lying, he just hates them for being zionists. now dershowitz, holy fuck i cam't believe somebody wants you to read that cunt

Some background:

Henry Ford: The International Jew

>>3151632

Arabs living in Israel are full citizens, and they are not subject to jewish religious laws and they do not have to serve in the military.

The palestinians are refugees for complex reasons that involve them, israel, and surrounding arab nations. no one is fully to blame for them. but, as long as they are at war with israel, why should they be treated as citizens?

>>3151523
JIDF detected

There used to be lions all over that region. Once humans settled it they killed the lions. Then they started acting like lions. The media is almost all from the human's point of view, it's very biased.

>>3151715
Kill yourself faggot.

What I'm about to suggest, at a glance, won't make sense, but a great place to start would be: Jerusalem: a history. By Simon de. . Can't remember exactly how his name goes and on a phone at work so can't Google. It's a great, violent read though.

You need a decent founding in the history if the region because all sides if the spectrum will be quoting history and pre history as their justifications. The founding of Israel is covered as well towards the end.

>>3151638
>>3151641

Fuck off nazi cunts.

>>3151527
Its pretty real (except the 1972 war, lots of US help from there on out), the Jews have had it rough. I just finished Jerusalem, A Biography by Montefiore (a Jew, but a british national), and he certainly doesnt stop at pointing out the Jewish idiocy throughout history, the idiocy of the Hasidim, and the brutal massacres perpetrated by Jewish terrorists like the Lehi against both the British and the Arabs, who were both dicks too.

There are no good guys in this fight, but you gotta respect the cagey Jewish guerrillas who decided enough was enough.

Mobi for those interested: http://www.mediafire.com/?y428k51h61tscfu

>>3151528
Partially true, but there were plenty in "nice" countries that were filled with anti-semites, or "nice" countries where they had been put in camps because of their religion.

>>3151602
>dat american history
Confirmed for ignorant Whitey.

>>3151936
>>3151528
Jewish landowners had been buying up a lot of Palestinian land for a while by that point, and then you had Britain imposing international sanctions against Jews buying Palestine after the fall of the Ottoman empire. It's these sanctions (and a few other things) that gave rise to the demonisation of Churchill by Zionists despite his backing of the Balfour Declaration.

The sad thing is, Palestine has had a lot of shit for centuries now, whether it be from the Ottomans or Britain or Egypt or Syria. And then along come a bunch of Europeans and Americans that, because of their matriarchal lineage and mistreatment in Europe and America, think it gives them the right to make things even worse for the Palestinians.

>>3151950
To be fair, the British were more than willing to give Jerusalem to the Hashemite Kingdoms, the Jews took it upon themselves to take it back.

>>3151959
>the Jews took it upon themselves to take it back
The last time they had had it was when...? I can't see how the Jewish people had any legitimate right to modern Jerusalem. Now that we're a generation or so after the fact it's somewhat different, but the whole idea of taking it "back" is ridiculous.

>>3151969
The only time the jews were removed from Jerusalem was after the 79BC (and the resultant guerrilla that resulted in the diaspora) and during the Crusader state. There have been Jewish communities in Jerusalem, usually making up 50% of the population under Arab, Mameluke, Ottoman, Egyptian, and British rule. Actual Palestinian Arabs only ruled there under Abdullah and some guy in the 1830s who was swiftly crushed. If we are talking about existing populations, the Jews have been there just as long as the Palestinians.

Not really interested in fighting over this, since im not jewish and hate zionism (and its effects on the US vote and policy), but insofar as a population deciding to exert hegemony the Jewish claims are as valid as the Palestinian claims, and both have better claims than the French or Hapsburg scions. Since their claims are both valid, the Jewish state chose to exert their claim by force, and lets face it, when Arabs/Levantines/Turks ruled the area it was a stagnant pile of rocks.

>>3151992
I mean there have been laws keeping Jews off of the temple mount and away from the dome of Omar since like 750 AD or so.

It's pretty much impossible to find an unbiased account of the subject. Read both sides and make your own opinions.

The only way this conflict will end is if the palestinians stop firing rockets every day over the border. Israel wouldn't aggress if they weren't being attacked. If Israel attacked without provocation they'd get sanctions up the ass in a heartbeat; it's in their interests for a peacful resolution through diplomacy. It's the arabs that are the obstacle at the moment.

>>3152001
See
>>3151935

Pretty decent unbiased book. I mean, if you can have a jew mourning the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre its about as unbiased as you can get.

>>3151992
>The only time the jews were removed from Jerusalem was after the 79BC (and the resultant guerrilla that resulted in the diaspora)
In other words: We believe God gave this land to our forefathers and then some other forefathers relinquished that claim. This is why I'm putting it in terms of the Jewish people having a right to Jerusalem. There's no issue with there being a Jewish population there, or indeed anywhere.

This is all quite ideal though, practically the whole single state or two state solution debate does have legs. Though it is saddening we've got to a stage where we have to consider attrocities that one side will cause should a certain solution be put forward.

>>3152011
I wouldnt say they relinquished the same, I would more say they were taken away in chains to build the Colleseum because they got their shit packed in by an outside group that REALLY had no claims aside from being an empire

>Political discussion on /lit/

Delete this thread.

>>3152026
This is history and a discussion of unbiased sources. There is no /pol/ bullshit and everyone is behaving themselves. If this is to be deleted than so should every meta-philosophical bullshit thread that pops up and gets 250 replies from undergrad students.

>>3152018
Diaspora wasn't an external idea imposed in, it's a very Jewish (I guess) idea prophesied by Moses and Isaiah and all that. I guess you could argue some kind of claim, from earlier Diaspora, but it really doesn't gel with how national politics are done now. I couldn't buy up Paris and declare myself king of France for example. Trying to extrapolate a law from previous instances with God also doesn't make sense as far as trying to establish legitimacy.As far as Roman claim on Israel goes, they had plenty of claim by the standards of the time.

>>3152001

>The only way this conflict will end is if the palestinians stop firing rockets every day over the border. Israel wouldn't aggress if they weren't being attacked. If Israel attacked without provocation they'd get sanctions up the ass in a heartbeat; it's in their interests for a peacful resolution through diplomacy. It's the arabs that are the obstacle at the moment.


Get real. Israel is hellbent on colonizing the West Bank. Hamas doesn't run the West Bank, Hamas didn't even exist prior to the late eighties. Yet Israel marches on and expands settlements there. If Israel wanted a just resolution with the Pals, they've had since 1967 to make once. Rather they want to have their cake and eat it too, to continue colonizing the West Bank and cruelly sqeezing the Palestinians, and to suffer no consequences from that whatsoever.

>>3152443
I like the way this is after talk about finding an "unbiased" account.

>>3152033
>unbiased sources

>implying those exist

>itt: usfags clap for the israel palestinian conflict

never understood this. just let the sand niggers kill each other. why should you give a fuck one way or another how it goes?

>he thinks the conflict is intricate cos there is a lot of buzz around

here's a short summary just for you:
pro-israeli
>hurr i don't like the other guys and i wanna fuk em up
pro-palestinian
>hurr i don't like the other guys and i wanna fuk em up

here, saved you some time

>>3152478
It's one of those crazy religious right-wing things with America as the chosen country that gets to go to heaven. A lot like manifest destiny.

>>3152478

That would >imply that the jewish people are not the most important people in US politics. Many sources on the internet believe that the jewish people control the US government, and they wouldn't allow them to say that on the internet if it were not true,

>>3153183
>Many sources on the internet believe that the jewish people control the US government

The inordinate amount of influence that Zionists wield over US foreign policy has been acknowledged time and time again by mainstream scholars and pundits. It's not really a big secret, most people just aren't aware of it.

>>3153183
>>3153224 is actually right.
You don't have to buy /pol/'s oh-so-edgy neo-nazi shit to know Israel buys out a great portion of the American political process. Hell, our Presidents have to agree to the ridiculous notion that 'nations' have 'rights' to exist, which is of course nonsense and counter-intuitive if you apply it to Palestine.

>>3151523
100% legit

anything by Chomsky
hell just check his website
http://chomsky.info/articles/20121104.htm

>>3153224
pleb tier
the USA has backed numerous atrocious regimes
There has been no over-arching conspiracy of an Indonesian Lobby coercing America into aiding them East Timor or South African Lobby manipulating it into helping everything it did or Chile/Argentina/Brazil/etc Lobby or Philippines Lobby or South Korea Lobby or Iran Lobby or any number of other cases
It backs Israel because it is a strategic asset
It is its intervention force in the region
It keeps the puppet dictators in line
And the same time keeps them in power, it trains their security forces and if their power faulters and the population shows signs of taking over who will be going in
It is a hub of high tech investment and development
It is a major purchaser of arms
And this spurs on everyone else in the region to buy second tier equipment
>>3153355
Not long ago Armenians were trying to lobby some congressmen or senators to pass resolutions regarding the Armenian Genocide
This would of course cause problems with Americas ally Turkey
And who is of more strategic importance?
The executive branch put the kybosh on this lobbying
Strategic Interests determine policy not lobbyists

>>3151523
how do I Nakba

>>3153980
>pleb
>>>/mu/

>>3153980
>It is a hub of high tech investment and development
>It is a major purchaser of arms
it is these lobbyists who determine policy
Pentium has set up their largest microchip plant in Israel
How much do the defence contractors make selling them helicopters and jets and missiles?