/lit/ - Literature

Not that shit again.

Define art.

I dunno bro, but the MGS series has some of the most erudite intertextuality I've come across in a video game.

yes, but most of them probably aren't, and also this is not a board for video game discussion thx

Of course video games can be art. Some video games are art. Red Dead Redemption, Metal Gear Solid, Beyond Good and Evil, Planescape: Torment, and Morrowind are all examples of video games that are art.
Before we get into that whole shitfest, no, they are not as well written as a book. If you want to read a book, go read a fucking book. However, some of them certainly evoke emotion and sometimes have a message. The most common message paradoxically being "hurr violence is bad."

Art =/= Good

>>3130542

Art is what artists do.

Planescape:Torment was basically like reading a novel.

So I'd say yes.

Everithing could be art. That doesn't mean it's good.

>>3130578

I found that game to be boring as fuck. To be fair, I only made it out of the starting area and into the first couple of areas of the city. When does it pick up, or am I just missing something?

All art is quite useless and I can think of nothing more useless than video games

>>3130578
If it was basically like reading a novel why don't you do yourself a favour and read a fucking novel.

I don't want a novel like experience when I play a video game.

>>3130605
Fichte?

>>3130600

It's a game that requires immersion. Opening dialogue with NPCs and party members is one of the pillars of the game. If you were bored at the starting area then chances are the game isn't for you.

>>3130637

No need to be mad.

Mediums are not art. However, there is no videogame that is art.

>>3130645
Wilde, I'm pretty sure (well picture of Dorian grey in particular) but such sentiments are to be found in a lot of work.

Certainly, but they will never become high art like literary prose

>>3130665
How can you make that claim? Back it up.

Not all books are art. Not all songs are art. Not all paintings are art. Some video games are art.

>>3130657
>>3130657
He has a point. Video games aren't art because they can mimic other art forms. When your gameplay experience is analogous to reading a novel, watching a film or listeing to a symphony then it hasn't done a good job being art.

I don't see /v/ treating them like art so why should we care?

>define "art"

I would think that shenmue is art, in terms of story, characters and gameplay.

The story is very simple, it's merely about a young adult who returns to his home only to find his father murdered in front of him, due to refusing to reveal the location of a certain artifact. The young adult now seeks revenge, while uncovering leads to the villain and the misteries behind said artifact.

The characters are essentially acquaintances, friends, mentors, servants, etc. to the main character, and each have their own motivations and actions, who are only revealed depending on the actions of the protagonist.

continued

>>3130763
The gameplay is interaction taken as far as possible. Most of the furniture can be used, the appliances can be turned on and off, every common person has their own routine and voice acting, and they also remember your actions. There is also a weather system, calendar and clock, to immerse the player further into the world.

Even the combat system relies on learning and practicing the martial art moves before one can use them in straight combat, although not necessarily in the conventional sense the pose, feeling and spiritual side of it is emphasized.

In short, I think Shenmue is art because is sets out to make the player live through a different world and be someone they never thought they would be, and largely succeeds at it, although it turned out to be far too expensive and quite boring for most.

>>3130782
But how come I couldn't break things?

>>3130816
Because you're supposed to be level headed and law abiding, thus preserving the work of others?

>>3130825
No ever minds you entering on their houses, though.

>>3130782
>implying Japan can into art

Can movies be art? If so, vidya can be art.

>debating if something falls into a category which has no accepted definition
This is stupid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl0X_-qejD8

Does it matter? Since when is art the deciding factor of something's worth?

>>3130924
Since some of us aren't base plebians who consume media for the sole purpose of entertainment.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that video games are closer to sport than to cinema or literature?
Go have this argument with /sp/

>>3130936
Can you guys stop using the word "pleb" or "plebian" or everything related to that garbage of a word.

>>3130924
This.

>>3130943
This

>>3130936
We remain unknown to ourselves, we seekers after knowledge, even to ourselves: and with good reason. We have never sought after ourselves—so how should we one day find ourselves? It has rightly been said that: ‘Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also’; our treasure is to be found in the beehives of knowledge. As spiritual bees from birth, this is our eternal destination, our hearts are set on one thing only—‘bringing something home.’

-Nietzsche

Games that are made to make money are not art
Games made purely for entertainment are not art
Games that are made to convey a message or an emotion are art
Then again, I am stupid

>>3130943
Why?

>>3130993
This.

yes. they need to develop more as an art form though. they're mostly trash as art now

>>3130993
Don't worry; he's just a pleb who got called a pleb one too many times and hates it.

>>3130578
video games are their own medium. why compare them to books, film, music, etc because they contain elements of these?

Yes and no. Videogames are made by a bunch of different arts combined.
Also, Hideo Kojima said he doesn't believe videogames to be art.

>>3130989
Usually a game that falls under that third category would include the other two categories as well.

And I don't think "having a message" makes something art. It's more about discernible human expression, which is something I feel video games lack almost entirely.

And so what if it has a "message." How does having a message make something art? And, ultimately, it's up to the reader, or player, in this case, to determine a "message"--not the creator. With books and film, the possibilities for "messages" are much more vast than with video games. This is why people write journals and academic articles and critical essays about them, whereas video criticism is "ya it was gud, u shud buy it." And, with regard to "messages" in video games, they would simply be transmitted through plot. And I don't think that ever makes for good art, at least in cinema or literature. If it were, then I think airport-fiction writers would be held in higher esteem.

Why does it matter if video games are considered art or not?

Yes, but there are very few games I've ever played that I would qualify as art (let alone GOOD art). Most recently, Dark Souls and Spec Ops: The Line.

>>3131023

>This is why people write journals and academic articles and critical essays about them, whereas video criticism is "ya it was gud, u shud buy it."

That statement is pretty ignorant. You're comparing academic journalism to popular critique. I could point out Oprah's book club or Amazon reviews and call literary critique equally shallow.

If you think there aren't scholarly articles and texts written about principles of game design, you're just flat-out wrong. I'm reading one right now:

http://www.amazon.com/Emergence-Games-Charles-River-Development/dp/1584505516

video games are art in the same sense that a blockbuster film would be considered art.

>>3131023
>Why does it matter if video games are considered art or not?
This is the question posed by the thread. This thread is about video games as art. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion don't come in here and question the validity of the discussion. When people are talking about what books they like do you say "What does it matter what book you like?"

>>3131030
but you've confirmed the existence of literary academic journals already, so you can't.

i was mainly talking about criticism with regard to interpretation, or "messages," to use the language of the poster i was responding to.

this book doesn't address any of that. it's about game design. it's irrelevant. it's about making games "deeper" on a really superficial level.

"Emergent narrative, characters and agents, and game worlds are covered and a hands-on tutorial and case study allow the reader to the put the skills and ideas presented into practice."

Can art be video games?

>>3131045
no it isn't the question posted by the thread. I just want some rationale here. Video games just seem very inorganic to me. And i want to know why people think otherwise. hence the question


and I think i typed quite a bit in that post, as biased as it was. I'm just as

Yes. Art doesn't have to be good to be art.

Video games fall into these catagories
-Shit
-Retro games which were characterized by testing a player's tolerance level before they gave up, it's limited capabilities stops it from being art
-Multiplayer focused games (which like a previous poster said, are more analogous to sport than art)
-And Single Player games that attempt to give the player an experience that feels like a second life. If a game manages to succeed in giving a player cherish-able memories, and a sense of wonder and emotion from simply being, than it succeeds in being art.

What distinguishes video games from other media is that by definition they allow the player to interact with them, which most definitely does not disqualify them as works of art. It could be argued that this characteristic prevents the creator from directly affecting the player, but I disagree with this notion because there is a control over the results of the interaction, in other words regardless of the player's choice the creator can always give the response he intended.

>>3131020
I don't think that's what Kojima meant. I would say that the vast majority of video games today are made for definite purposes other than art or creator's intent, namely number of sales, price range, target demographic, game mechanics, etc. with artistic concerns at best a secondary preoccupation related to iconic imagery and identity purposes, and as such they could not be considered works of art in any form.

However, there are certain games which are a culmination of a creator's vision, and as such could be considered works of art, such as the aforementioned ( >>3130763 >>3130782 ) Shenmue.

So in other words, video games as they are made today are not works of art, although there are exceptions to the norm. However, the video game medium CAN be used as a art form.

Video games aren't art becuse I have defined art to mean not-a-game.

>>3131134
>I would say that the vast majority of video games today are made for definite purposes other than art or creator's intent, namely number of sales, price range, target demographic, game mechanics
I think there's more of a desire to view video games as art now than in the past, so it wouldn't be surprising if artistic games become more commonplace. These threads are no doubt syptomatic of this desire.

>>3131190
The single greatest piece of literature the world has never seen.

Legends mode is truly legendary.

>>3131190
my DFW

I think video games can be art. I think anything created by humans can be art. I dont think video games *should* be art.

A video game is a game. A game is designed to produce fun in the player, like porn creates arousal and food tastes nice. Sure, stuff like Shadow of the Colossus can be "deep" and look nice, but I think this is just a more cerebral kind of fun.

If someone wanted to create art in the video game form, I think it would need a different label. The porn analogy seems pretty apt actually. Even if it's really well done, classy erotica, all soft focus camera work n shit, its main purpose is still to arouse, it is functional. Art is not functional, its value is not how well it fulfils its function (to produce fun, to arouse, to taste nice). It has an inherent value.

Just as I typed this though I remembered getting to the end of Sword & Sworcery on my iPod and feeling feels no book has ever feeled me, so now I don't know.

>>3131210
And that it is different each time. That your fort can die in so many ways...

>>3130540
yes. yes they can.
now would you kindly
>>>>>/vg/

>>3131214
Lot's of games aren't made to be fun. Dwarf Fortress is made to be an accurate Dwarf Fortress simulator. Games like Morrowind exist to draw the player into the world and provide a immersive experience on multiple levels. These things are only fun incidentally. They both seek to create an emotional connection between the art and the viewer.

>>3131276
>Dwarf Fortress is made to be an accurate Dwarf Fortress simulator.
How? How can it accurately simulate a Dwarf Fortress?

>>3131281
The developers actually did extensive research in real Finnish dwarf fortresses. I saw a documentary on it.

>>3131281
I always forget how incredulous I was when I first discovered DF. It's really impossible to explain DF to someone who hasn't played it.

>>3131276
but......but......DF is fun. Losing is fun, remember?

>>3130989
Ah yes the Romantic lone creator who cannot help but create art out of a rarefied spiritual compulsion to convey meaning and emotion! Because no great artist has ever profiteered off their skills or even had commissions from the aristocracy and the clergy as their most notable works, nope, no sir.

>>3131175
>art
>creator's intent

These aren't the same thing.

>>3131320
But you can't make a work of art if you didn't intend, unless it came to be considered a work of art by complete accident.

they could

>>3131335
Intent isn't the determinant of any interpretive aspect of a work. Creators only make things.

>>3131345
Yes, but if hypothetically you made a work of art but that wasn't your intention, then while it is still is a work of art, it isn't your creation, so in effect you did not make any work of art - it was a random event.

>>3131358
5/5 bretty good :DDD

Is this disregard for authorial intent a post-modern invention or have people always felt that art is completely subjective depending on who experiences it?

>>3131379
It's a postmodern thing, of course the further back you go the more you find out art wasn't this:

>the Romantic lone creator who cannot help but create art out of a rarefied spiritual compulsion to convey meaning and emotion!

>>3131388
There was like, a double layer of sarcasm there and I have no idea what you're trying to convey.

Even trash like CoD is art by most definitions

When something ceases to be described, it does not cease to exist.

Language does not derive meaning from itself, definitions are only benchmarks.

It is context and intention that fall closest to truth.

Language, as all mediums are, is a system of representation.

It is, inherently, no different than any other medium of communication.

Take painting, for example. Colors alone do not have meaning. They have certain basic connotations, but they are not fixed. Their meaning and purpose are defined by the end they are used for. Sometimes they have no meaning at all.

It is the same with words. Words, like colors, have certain general implications, but they only truly receive meaning when they are being used as specific reference.

Even abstract concepts can only be expressed through their relation to that which is familiar and mutual. You can write for yourself, using your own points of reference, but it will not be the same when someone else reads it. For stories, for novels, for poems, for feelings, for recounts, for illustrations - this may even be a preferred approach.

But for questions?

Language does not quantify. That is, by definition, contrary to its nature.

Asking a question is a direct reference. You can't reference abstract concepts without specificity. It just has no meaning without context.

Yes, a foolish reply to a foolish post. I am probably being trolled. But, nonetheless, I feel that most people do not view language in a way that is conducive to communication, and that is its inherent purpose!

It just seems so silly sometimes.

Maybe I do not understand it either. Who am I to say?

>>3130540
http://www.cracked.com/blog/why-ebert-is-wrong-in-defense-of-games-as-art/

Bare with me, it's pretty good.

>>3130564

Planescape torment is the best example of how not to make vidya. Its a fucking book with a shitty RPG tacked on.

I think vidya can be art but the ways games are made now they are not. I think the best examples of vidya are SoTC,Ico, Portal, and Journey. They almost never take you out of the experience. They just through you in a world and let you experience the adventure without bogging it down with tons of dialogue and cut scenes. Another example is the Elder Scrolls games in that they just through you in a world in let you explore and be immersed in it. Too bad the game is boring as fuck and it has the most generic fantasy setting of all time

No definition for art. Stop using that word like it means something. That aside, Videogames are just as worthy a medium as anything else.

>>3131214

Why do people act like SoTC is deep. Why do people act like the less the story says the deeper it is? Gamers fucking piss me off every god damn game that has a minimalistic story is called fucking deep.

>>3133043
>PST a book with a shitty RPG tacked on
>has never played tabletop in his life
>doesn't know what roleplaying is
>probably likes JRPGs and Mass Effect

>>3133092

If they wanted to make an rpg make an rpg. Having a book with a rpg tacked on doesnt work

>>3133059

What decides depth?

We use the word for a reason, it's meant to suggest something below the surface. Something beyond what is immediately seen and felt.

In novels, it's often through symbolism, or thoughtful and intellectually provocative use of just about anything.

In music, it's something that resonates throughout a great swathe of thoughts and feelings to create something united, more poignant than the sum of its parts.

In video-games, it's different. The value comes from immersion. In games that bear down and give immense detail to their world, there can be quirks or pinches of personal inconsistency that draw you back from it. That remind you what it is you're doing. That isn't always the case, of course, they can be extremely rewarding in that way. But in minimalistic or impressionistic games, the world is what you make it. The empathy, the emulation, the immersion of it is largely up to you. Without dialogue, or fixed and obvious story arcs, in depth explanations of lore, wikis full of terminology... it's all on the player to create the world.

And there's value to that too. Arguably, no more or less, but some are bound to think both ways.

In discussions like this, perspective is important. Unfortunately, it is also what people on 4chan lack most, making discussions like this difficult.

>>3133098
>implying Avellone and Kirkbride's attempts to simulate plastic worlds with a static "multiple choice" DM aren't admirable and virtuous even if they're ultimately doomed
>my face when you are a pleb

Well, there are around 7 arts afaik...

And vidya gaems have:

acting (for 3d models sometimes)
animation
graphical art/design
voice acting
story, plot and/or narration
and the exclusive one - interaction

So it's an "art made of arts".

No they can't be art. Videogames just like fiction books are purely entertainment mediums.

>>3133051

I agree with you. That said the medium is really badly managed from two distinct areas.

- Brattish fans in the (vocal) majority who are rarely open to embracing new ideas or challenging themselves to think about something differently. Gaming isn't as homogeneous as they like to think.
- Publishers looking to cash in on trends and make the quick buck; often playing on the aforementioned point.

If it's too be taken seriously then things need to change (and I think they will over time). Indie games are the most interesting thing in gaming right now but they don't challenge video game conventions as much as they should (some do, most don't).

There definitely needs to be a free medium for expression (well it exists already - PC). Console exclusivity isn't good for the medium at all.

No.

/thread.

>>3133151
Dude, all books, plays, and music throughout history have usually been vulgar shit. Even the good stuff made by the aristocrats. Vidya has a pretty decent ratio of passionate and interesting devs to consumer capitalists, and that's before even considering we're living in Consumer Capitalism: The Era.

The fact that you have not only indie devs but middle-of-the-road devs who want to return to the days before publishers and market demographics dominated everything is fucking heartening. Those guys sacrifice profits and notoriety just to experiment more with their medium and deliver unique experiences. Don't even bother looking at what major publishers do; there's always going to be that layer of "crust" composing 98% of a medium that is artless and made solely for investment returns.

Can videogames be art?

>>3130540
I'd say yes. I've played several that I believed were worthy of the title.

Pathologic.

/thread

>>3133919
I will accept that answer when someone releases a translation that is comprehensible.

Seriously though: video games can be art, but they're unquestionably really, really shitty as literature. They are just kind of categorically worse at narrative than existing narrative media (books / film / comics). If you want to have a discussion about video games as art, you really ought not be talking about literature.

>>3134094
That would be like calling music art because it's lyrics tell a compelling story.

>>3134102
no, music is art, but not because of its lyrics, in the same way that video games are art, but not because of their ability to tell a story

>>3134110
THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CONVEY

>>3134092
Haruspicus and Bachelor are understandable. Devotress is incomprehensible mostly because it uses really verbose and evocative language. I'd recommend trying the first two, have notes handy though, there's a lot of information to remember and the translation doesn't make it any fucking easier.

Anybody else played Okami? This was the first where I considered a game very tasteful in art and music. You guys should try it.

>>3134124
They're sufficiently udnerstandable to play the game. I can't help but feel i'm missing out on some very important details about the story though.

>>3133092
Is this the average /v/ poster?

>>3134134
I feel you there. Sorta want to learn Ruskie just to play it, and read Petersburg.

>>3134134
You're not supposed to fully understand the stroy in one playthrough. What did you feel was you were missing?

>>3134124
One of the devs on the Ice Pick forums said the Haruspicus translation was completely acceptable; the Bachelor translation wasn't great but was adequate; and the Devotress translation was awful and English speaking fans shouldn't play it until the translation was redone. Unfortunately the translation was never redone and very likely won't be ever.
So yeah guess we better learn Russian.

>>3134126

Okami has great visuals and music but its flawed from a game design perspective. You spend the first 2 hours clicking through generic anime style dialogue. Okami would have been the best game ever if they made it in a Skyrim style game. Just have a huge open world for you to explore and if you want to talk to people and advance the story you can. As is Okami is just an anime with dungeons that are kinda shit

>>3134242
The devs can say all they want. If they think those translations were adequate they obviously don't speak English.

>>3134430
>games are better when they're sandbox!
This is not true. Nor is Skyrim a good sandbox game.

>>3134642
But that's not what he said.

>>3134687
>that's not what he said
>Just have a huge open world for you to explore and if you want to talk to people and advance the story you can.
>not sandbox

>>3134696
He said that Okami would be a better game in a sandbox style. He didn't say that sandbox games are better. He also cited Skyrim as an example of a sandbox game, he didn't say it was a good game. Whether or not it is a good sandbox game is irrelevant.

An apporpriate way to respond to him would have been to discuss the cons of Okami as a sandbox game or to argue the merits of it as not-a-sandbox game.

I hope in the future you will make better posts.

I have played over 800 videogames, and finished over 120 (yes, i have counted them) and there is only one game i would call true, pure art

I think art requires an interpretive quality. I can attach my own meanings to poetry, writing, paintings, and other visual mediums. With video games, I've only found that with Journey, and most of them sort of shove the story down your throat.

It's also really begun to bug the fuck out of me that all video game plots basically amount to: SAVE THE WORLD/UNIVERSE/GALAXY/COUNTRY/etc. I realize there are a limited number of plot types, but can we try one of the others please?

>>3134746
Yume Nikki?

Kind of, but it's not great.

>>3134758
we're not talking about if the game is great or not

and now you explain me that ''kind of''

>>3134738
He said that it's "flawed from a game design perspective", and to make it the "best game ever" it would have to be turned into a "Skyrim style game", by which they go onto describe as a sandbox game. So, in fact, it is clear they think Skyrim is not only a good example of a sandbox game (I never said it wasn't a good game, just not a good sandbox game), indeed for them the eponymous example, they do think that hitting a game with the magic sandbox stick will automatically improve it. By this do I mean they must think chess or Pro evo would benefit from being sandbox? No, don't be an idiot.

>An apporpriate way to respond to him would have been to discuss the cons of Okami as a sandbox game or to argue the merits of it as not-a-sandbox game.
Ha ha, go fuck yourself.

>I hope in the future you will make better posts.
You just need to learn to read and posts will seem to become better on their own.

>>3134764
I don't know, there are just some phrases I use for no reason. I had thought you said great.

>>3134746
Holy fuck that game is great. Yes I would say video games are art if you take them as art. Cooking is art if you take it as art. You might be disappointed a lot, but I think it is an art.

>>3134768
His argument still only pertains to that game he was talking about. You have extended it to every game. That's not his argument. Don't get mad because you've been called out on your fallacy.

>>3134746
>>3134779
>yume-nikki
>art
It sounded like it would be, but I was gravely disappointed by it. It's trying a little hard.

>>3134780
>His argument still only pertains to that game he was talking about.
Only if he hadn't used the phrase "flawed from a game design perspective", that then applies to much more than just Okami.
>You have extended it to every game.
No I haven't, stop trying to be an autist that takes everything literally.

>>3134781
What do you mean by trying hard?

>>3134785
He may have meant that the design is only flawed in the context of Okami. A broader meaning could have been that he think that particular type of game is flawed and sandboxes are only one way to improve them.

If refusing to infer any meaing from your given statment other than the one stated makes my an autist then I don't care to not be one.

>>3134793
I think it tried to do the surrealism of games like Earthbound, and failed to do it nearly as well. That aspect to me felt forced much of the time (although it fitted at certain moments). Comparing it to "artsy" games, the story feels melodramatic and even drawn out. I'd rather play something by Ted Cavanagh or Pippin Barr, or those simple pixel games you get from art students sometimes that set out to explore one thing but really well.