/lit/ - Literature

>doomed to studying religion

>but without a detailed background of every event depicted, including names, geography, etc, you get lost easily.
You really shouldn't.
You might just be retarded. No shame in it.

Footnotes

>>3128444

What exactly are you getting lost at? The majority of the "Demons" are just pagan deities from the nations surrounding Palestine, other than that it's pretty intuitive.

That said, you should be fairly familiar with the Judeo-Christian canon anyway if you want any sort of contextual background for pretty much all of Western lit ...

>>3128465
Cutting out the text wont save you, redditfag scum. Your kind is killing 4chan.

inb4 le butthurt XXXXXDDDDXDXDX

It is meant to be read aloud. I did the whole thing like that to prepare for a final and there was only one 500 word question on it.

said between us, milton is a genius in the dialogues and in the construction of the characters, but I find that he is very boring in the description of the environments and battles.
So do not judge by the number of yawns that you will do in the beginning but expect to get eden, you'll see that his reputation is not unmerited.

>>3128537
I don't care about 4chan, I post on /lit/

>>3128553
I sincerely hope so.

>>3128493
Names are being thrown all over the place. Look, I want to enjoy it, but I really can't get into it.
>>3128543
I'll try reading it out loud again.

>>3128563

Paradise Lost is not difficult. It takes a while to get "into it", and Milton's poetic voice becomes booming and dominant which wears on you a little when you've been reading for hours, but Paradise Lost is one of the most enjoyable and beautiful works of literature ever written. If you're not getting anything out of it, it must be because you can't understand it -- no other reason is possible -- which in turn must be because you haven't read enough 17th century poetry. Try to rectify this and hopefully Milton should come more easily to you.

How have you plebs never read the fucking bible

even those backward religious hicks you badmouth so much are better read than you are

Where I would always get lost is when Milton starts going into some long drawn out epic simile so just keep a look out for those and I don't see how you could get too lost OP. Maybe you should get used to reading other stories written in verse first.

If it's too complex try Rape of the Lock or maybe Don Juan?

>>3128593
Good suggestions. thank you.

>>3128588
I'll take note. Thanks

>>3128592
>even those backward religious hicks you badmouth so much
/lit/ is predominately pro religion bro.

>>3128553
>the number of yawns that you will do in the beginning
Wait, what? Book 1 is supremely enjoyable, very much unlike Book 4 (after Satan´s soliloquy), Book 7, and other Edenic lullabies.

>>3128563
>Names are being thrown all over the place.
Every decent edition of the poem has plentiful footnotes, doesn´t yours? If not, get a better one. Mine is Oxford World´s Classics, which cost me less than 8 euro on bookdepository.

>>3128636
>/lit/ is predominately pro religion bro.
No. A couple of the militant agnostics are very vocal and love bashing Dawkins, but /lit/ generally doesn't embrace organized religion. They seem to appreciate religious texts as pieces of literature, just not the theology.

>>3128646
3128553 here
I don't say that the first part is bad, all soliloquies are interesting in their own way, but I think the start it's less interesting than the arrival of the devil in Eden, and the part with Adam and Eve.
Maybe I'll say a foolish thing, but I find common in many classics of the most famous pieces are located at the beginning, as the madeleines in "in the search of lost time" or windmills in "Don Quixote."
In my opinion this is because to the too many people who over time have not reached the end of their books / sagas

>>3128693
In comparison to most of the Internet, I'd say /lit/ is cautiously pro-religion. It appreciates religious texts as literature, it doesn't often engage in bashing religious people as stupid (or any such bashing is likely to provoke vociferous argument), it can appreciate religious people and religious systems for themselves, and it's not anti-religion in any outstanding way. Which by the standards of the Internet...

>>3128734
>In my opinion this is because to the too many people who over time have not reached the end of their books / sagas
Ha, that´s very well possible. Nevertheless I think Book 1 to be the crowning jewel of the poem, so loaded with powerful expressions and powerful ideas, so captivating, so energetic. And it gets much deeper when you reconsider it after having read the whole thing. Let me quote Satan, just for the heck of it:

Is this the Region, this the Soil, the Clime,
Said then the lost Arch-Angel, this the seat
That we must change for Heav'n, this mournful gloom
For that celestial light? Be it so, since he
Who now is Sovran can dispose and bid
What shall be right: fardest from him is best
Whom reason hath equald, force hath made supream
Above his equals. Farewel happy Fields
Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail horrours, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less then he
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.

>>3128636
That's not true. If anything we're an even split between people who are spirtitualy inclined, nihilists and commies.

lrn2internet faget.

>>3128750
>Book 1 to be the crowning jewel of the poem

u wot m8

Book 2 was the best to read, because of >dat flyting between Satan, Sin and Death. Book 4 was the greatest artistic achievement -- best verse and structurally perfect.

>>3128781
Fuck your bad vibes, bro.

It's strong and famous, but for me the arrival of the devil in the eden is even more beautiful. put your hands at book IV

Upon himself; horror and doubt distract
His troubl'd thoughts, and from the bottom stirr
The Hell within him, for within him Hell
He brings, and round about him, nor from Hell
One step no more then from himself can fly
By change of place: Now conscience wakes despair
That slumberd, wakes the bitter memorie
Of what he was, what is, and what must be
Worse;

>>3128750
sorry, I forgot to mention that I replied to you
>>3128800

>>3128800

Satan's soliloquy on Mt. Niphates in the beginning of book IV is definitely the best part of the entire poem.

>>3128814
I agree, but if you're a fan of Tolstoy also add Book VIII

To whom thus Adam, cleared of doubt, replied:—
“How fully hast thou satisfied me, pure
Intelligence of Heaven, Angel serene,
And, freed from intricacies, taught to live
The easiest way, nor with perplexing thoughts
To interrupt the sweet of life, from which
God hath bid dwell far off all anxious cares,
And not molest us, unless we ourselves
Seek them with wandering thoughts, and notions vain!
But apt the mind or fancy is to rove
Unchecked; and of her roving is no end,
Till, warned, or by experience taught, she learn
That not to know at large of things remote
From use, obscure and subtle, but to know
That which before us lies in daily life,
Is the prime wisdom: what is more is fume,
Or emptiness, or fond impertinence,
And renders us in things that most concern
Unpractised, unprepared, and still to seek.

>>3128814
>>3128800
>Hell within him
Yes, truly beautiful, but I enjoy Satan more in his heroic pose. Which is not to deny the beauty of his soliloquy; but simply to state my preference for expressions of power to those of weakness. (Yes, I do understand it sounds like a gross, edgy oversimplification. It´s just, like, my opinion, man.)

>>3128872
yes, I respect your opinion, I just wanted to point out the "meaning" behind the epic, the desolation behind the greatness.
Now I'm reading Moby Dick, and I must say that I find in Ahab the same sense of "Hell within him" that i found in the devil of milton

>>3128693
>Dawkins is immune from criticism
>militant agnostics
Oh boy, that's a new one

>>3128814

I'm particularly fond of the closing lines.

Paradise Lost is fucking amazing. If you're getting lost, perhaps watch the relevant lectures here. I haven't watched is Paradise Lost lectures, but I watched the first few in the course. He's pretty good. Also try rereading certain passages and reading parts out loud. You don't get to achieve the status of Paradise Lost without not only being rich in content but also being extremely lyrical.

http://oyc.yale.edu/english/engl-220

What moral do you gain from this book? Perhaps the disobedient loose Eden and the obedient gain Eden. What do you think?

>>3129159
Shelley said in one of his essays that Milton's devil is morally superior to God (which is something Shelley, of all people, would totally say).

I've generally contrasted Milton's devil with that of Dante and the ones depicted in the Faustian legends. Milton's is certainly the most sympathetic one, and I think he just plays more at, you know, the things that make us suffer and whatnot.

Forgive me for my incoherent ramblings. I'm quite tired.

>>3129166
The devil was cast from heaven as Adam and Eve were cast from the garden. Disobedience is viral. Enlightenment is remedial.

>>3129194
You said it, homey.

>>3129166
It is unquestionably true that modern man is more sympathetic to Milton's Satan than to Milton's God, and the average /lit/ reader will easily notice this. The edgy, dangerous qualities he represented were frightening in Cromwell's England, but have more or less been accepted as legitimate positions in the modern developed world, and certainly among the intelligentsia. It isn't really up for debate any longer.

A fallen angel can return to a state of grace. However that angel would no longer be the evil devil.

>but without a detailed background of every event depicted, including names, geography, etc, you get lost easily.

What the fuck are you talking about? The only settings are Heaven, Hell, and Eden. The only events that happen are the fall of man and the war in heaven. While lots of characters and Biblical passages are referenced in the final chapter, there's really only a few characters: Satan, God, Adam, and Eve-- a couple angels, a personification of Sin, and Jesus are the only other characters and they appear briefly-- and they fucking introduce themselves in lengthy passages. If you can't keep tabs on three settings and four characters... I mean, come on.

The only reason to be confused is if you're not at all familiar with the book of genesis.

Knowing good from evil is the force that ends ones poverty. The parable of eating of the tree of knowledge is misleading.

>>3129296
Many visitors to this site are secular. It is kind to remind them of the basics.

Here's a question open to debate (or not, depending on your level of conviction) that I think the browsers of /lit/ would enjoy.

Who is the maddest artist to have ever lived?
Philosophers, poets, playwrights, novelists, painters, and composers are all fair game.

>>3129399
Sorry, meant to make this as a new thread while I was monitoring this one.

>>3129307
>secular
you mean ignorant?

>>3129166
And then you of course have Stanley Fish´s reading.

To put it briefly, Fish claims Milton intentionally made Satan likable to get us sympathize with him only to realize later later on what a colossal and utterly unheroic asshole he is. In this way, Fish claims, we get to reenact the experience of the Fall while reading Paradise Lost and thus we are forcefully reminded of our sinful and fallen nature that is prone sin and evil.

" The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devils party without knowing it." -- William Blake, 1793

I'm personally of the belief that Milton did not intend for Satan to be seen as the hero that Shelley sees. It just doesn't make any sense if you consider that Satan just goes about being an asshole. He does everything because he's angry at not being able to overthrow God. People tend to focus too much on his speeches at the beginning of the poem.

>>3130046

I'd agree with this. Adam and Eve are far superior beings before Satan comes along. He's just far too bitter and spiteful to be considered the hero.

For the OP, if you're having trouble and are willing to spend a bit of money, I'd recommend the Longman edition. The footnotes are on the same page as the poem so you can easily reference things. I have definitely got good use out of mine.

>>3128915
>the desolation behind the greatness
That is of course true, but conversely, in Satan´s speeches in Book 1 and 2 you can see the greatness to which even a desolate character can ascend.

>>3128465
He's right. religion is a big time deal. It was not and is not merely there, or by any means benign. Also not an atheist here.