/lit/ - Literature

>>3103795
>). My writing is generally legible, but the problem is that if I have to write quickly or a lot (or both, as is often the case), legibility suffers, and more importantly my hand starts to cramp quite badly.

A fountain pen can remedy that.
I've found my own handwriting has in fact improved in the two years that I've been writing with one.

Flowing writing, that is neither cramped and illegible nor cramp inducing.

1. Get a fountain pen
2. Write everyday
3. Do practice lessons

>www.palmermethod.com

pic related: I just ordered this bad boy, 1950's Pelikan 140 GW FLEX Gold 14K F Nib

>2012
There's absolutely no reason anybody should still be using shitty disposable ballpoint pens when you can get great Chinese made fountain pens for a few measly cents more

>>3105473
>recent influx of fountain pen threads on /lit/
>reddit sees these
>fountain pen becomes mainstream on reddit
>soon all hipsters will have them

:(
2 years time tops.

They are so god damn easy to sell.
>eco friendly
>superior craftman ship
>retro as fuck
>cheap
>superior quality

>>3105481
>cheap
Yeah not all of them.

Somehow I don't see your usual le reddit hipster shelling out more than what it costs to get a Lamy Safari.

>>3104472
Post-war semi-flex Pelikan 140?

Why not a pre-war full-flex Pelikan 100?

(does your cap have a full nest of 4 baby pelicans? I don't think so.... full-nest masterrace reporting in!)
(poor mother Pelican - now she only has one baby left! So sad.... now I fear the whole company will disappear soon enough and then the bird will be extinct.)

>>3106639
What did the German Nazi bureaucracy write with? What did the Allies - French, British, American - write with? This post got me really curious in a small detail of the war - what were they all writing with, fountain pen-wise.

I started up a journal a week ago in part to practice my handwriting and in part because I have nothing better to do with my time. I found that after ten or so pages my handwriting started to look good and it's been getting better ever since. Generally, small letters, contrasted with long horizontal strokes and a consistent slight curve, with words and letters not spaced too far apart will look good. Make sure it's legible, or what's the point. So yeah, just practice.

I'm still slow as shit though. Takes me at least twice as long as it takes me to write normally, but hopefully that will change.

>>3106639
Wow, yes I'm jealous. How did that cost you?

Where should I buy them?

>>3107182
e-bay or other auctionhouses, also, do a good bit of reading before buying.

>>3107209
thanks

>>3107219
I'd recommend http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/

Affordable Quality brands:
Pelikan
Namiki
Parker
Old Sheaffers

>>3106716
They would've used the same pens as everybody else. Those in the upper echelons (or just the more wealthy) would've used the more expensive varients of the brands.

Brands didn't really matter as much in those days as they do today, and pretty much every brand had more expensive models and cheaper models (excluding the real "everyman's"/prole pen makers that made pens that are, funnily enough, quite scarce now despite having been made in such great numbers because they haven't lasted - they weren't built to last - like the "Dollar Watch" but for writing instruments).

There are plenty of possible brands Germans would have used in those days, but only about 5 of them remain (in some form or other).

I know that Goering was apparently fond of French pens (for whatever reason) - but none of those brands have survived into the present day.

Hitler, by all accounts, did not use a particulary expensive pen. Folks have speculated that it might have been something like a Geha, or even a Simplo (this is what Montblanc was pre-WW1). It would have been cheap, and not ostentatious (no gold/sterling overlay etc., which was the norm for the Aristocracy and wealthier merchants) - simple tastes for a peasant soul.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Einstein probably used a Pelikan (though not for when he worked on his Theory of Relativity - he used a Waterman's for that - when it was still an American company way back when).

As for the others:
French had their own pen companies, so did the British Empire and the Americans too.

Wonderful pens came out of all these places.

Parker (US) was really top of the world mid century - my my my how the mighty have fallen.

Of these brands, very few remain (and those that do are not really the same companies at all and are usually pale shadows of their former selves).

>>3107304
>Hitler, by all accounts, did not use a particulary expensive pen. Folks have speculated that it might have been something like a Geha, or even a Simplo (this is what Montblanc was pre-WW1). It would have been cheap, and not ostentatious (no gold/sterling overlay etc., which was the norm for the Aristocracy and wealthier merchants) - simple tastes for a peasant soul.

And on this, his pen was taken by his adjutant on death, and I think that guy was eventually detained by the Soviets (so who knows what happened to the pen?)

The only person who, today, claims to know the make and model of Hitler's pen is Irving (I'd belive that he does) but he's never mentioned what it was exactly.

Incidentally, I've read that when a pen collector visited Auschwitz they (were surprised, but not really) found bottles of Pelikan ink - it was used for the tattooing of the inmates.

That's not all that surprising; Pelikan is a very old company (1830's) that originally started out with art supplies and, more specifically, inks.

Does that stop me from using and collecting their pens and inks? No. Just as such things don't stop me from getting into Krupp lifts and riding on Thyssen escalators, amongst other things.
(such were the times that one can say it's likely that every austere, war-time
German pen has some kind of odd provenance - it is difficult to remain innocent in such times).

Funny, with the world against them the German pen makers still made damn fine pens - no gold or precious metals allowed and yet their chromenickel/palladium nibs rival 99% of gold nibbed pens today.

>>3107310
>chromenickel/palladium nibs rival 99% of gold nibbed pens today
No, not rival, I should say are far superior to 99% of gold nibbed pens made today.

>>3107182
Do not buy a vintage pen for a first pen; if you don't know how to use and maintain it you will ruin it (they're precious - they're not being made, and certainly not to the same standard, anymore).

If a first fountain pen, please start with modern pens:
German:
Pelikan - Pelikano/Pelikano Jr.
Lamy - Safari (favoured first pen) or the ABC (if you're an elementary schooler) or the newer Nexx

Japanese:
Pilot Varsity/V-pen - a disgusting, disposable fountain pen (bleh), but it will give you a taste to see if writing with one is to your liking and whether or not you wish to continue (favoured pre-first pen)
Pilot - 78g
Pilot - Prera
Platinum - Preppy (another favoured first pen; cheaper than Lamy Safari)

Taiwanese:
TWSBI - Diamond 540/vac700/mini - these start at 50USD, so best for a second pen (after you're sure a FP is for you). By god you get a lot of pen for 50 bucks. Superb, really (surprised that they can be offered for so cheap! Any other maker - European or Japanese would've priced these well over 100USD).

Chinese pens:
Too varied to number - mixed bag lottery in regards to quality.

There are Parkers and Sheaffers too, but I don't know enough about them (not liking what those once-great companies have become)

>>3107226
>>3107318

Thank you.

>>3105481
>It becomes mainstream and then hipsters get them

No, we are the hipsters. What you said is literally the opposite of how it works.

>>3107146
About 150USD.

I had been holding out for a pre-war 100 to round out the collection for a while (wanted "the Original" Pelikan pen), but had been waiting for one with a good price (the 4chicknest models can get pricey).

I got it cheap because the ebonite cap and piston knob have oxidised to that characteristic (of oxidised ebonite) brown colour, and the ink window has so ambered that it is functionally completely opaque. Oh well. If a specimen comes along that's in better nick then I'll pick that up too. I don't flex the nib all that much, though it is easier to flex than my semi-flex Pelikan 400nn's nib (which is the same nib as the one on your 140) - it is very old, after all.
(and it's not like such nibs were designed for constant copperplate/spencerian in mind anyway)

Here it is pictured next to my modern M405 and M800 - the 100/n's, 120's, 140's and 400/n/nn's are all good sizes, and comparable to the M200/M400/5 series.

I'm thinking about getting the M1000 - the last of the Pelikan's children and the largest pen they've ever made, to round off the other end of the collection, but am intimidated by the size (har har ahr)

>>3107326
>we are the hipsters
No, hipsters don't use things for logical reasons, they're willing to inconvenience themselves in order to stand out from the crowd.
Using a fountain pen isn't an inconvenience.

>>3107323
Just a note on this:
>>3107318
>Chinese pens:
>Too varied to number - mixed bag lottery in regards to quality.

The pen that this guy's got:
>>3105473
Is one of the known good Chinese pens.
It is called a JinHao 159 (an knock off of the Montblanc 149 lol) - it is massive, as far as pens go.
But you can get them for like 10USD (shipped) on ebay.

Though I cannot agree with everything he says or has done, this dutch fellow:
http://www.youtube.com/user/sbrebrown/featured
has some vids that will be of use to an aspiring fountain pen user.

So will these people:
http://www.inknouveau.com/
They man a popular online store for fountain pen stuff.

>>3107330
Hipster merely means someone who is involved with what is hip. They are more setters than followers of mainstream trends. They ride the wake of the true avant-garde but are ahead of the mainstream. Hipsters and poseurs are not necessarily the same thing.

What people call hipsters today is merely a caricaturised image of the 2000's "indie" aesthetic, much like the media image of the "beatnik" created in the 60's. Who were also called hipsters, like other subcultures have been before them.

>>3107338
Oh, and the forum that's already been linked above (the Fountainpen Network) is _the_ english language community for all things fountain pen (inks, paper, pen-friend finder, hand writing improvement - you name it).

Also, there is:
>fpgeeks.com

A sort of new hub, but also have pen reviews and a pen selector tool. They have a weekly vidcast every saturday too (for the truly deranged - oh, and that Dutch youtube guy I linked to above is one of the hosts of their show).
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Some vids of interest:

>How Aurora's (an old Italian company) pens are made:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMQ6oDoFE3w&feature=related

>How Pilot's (old Japanese company) pens are made (turn on captions for eng-subtitles):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTjwbemFyRY

>How Pelikan's (old German company und "mein liebchen") pens are made (were made, in the 80's - not that this shit changes all that much):

>And lastly some Pelikan propaganda (because FUCK Montblanc up it's Richemont arse)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1_KQFC_D3U

>>3107349
>*news hub,

>>3107338
Oh, and the forum that's already been linked above (the Fountainpen Network) is _the_ english language community for all things fountain pen (inks, paper, pen-friend finder, hand writing improvement - you name it).

Also, there is:
>fpgeeks.com

A sort of news hub, but also have pen reviews and a pen selector tool. They have a weekly vidcast every saturday too (for the truly deranged - oh, and that Dutch youtube guy I linked to above is one of the hosts of their show). They have a forum, but it's not as active as the aforementioned one.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Some vids of interest:

>How Aurora's (an old Italian company) pens are made:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMQ6oDoFE3w&feature=related

>How Pilot's (old Japanese company) pens are made (turn on captions for eng-subtitles):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTjwbemFyRY

>How Pelikan's (old German company und "mein liebchen") pens are made (were made, in the 80's - not that this shit changes all that much):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWhEytzwVmA&feature=related

>And lastly some Pelikan propaganda (because FUCK Montblanc up it's Richemont arse)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1_KQFC_D3U

Hows fountain pens to use if you are left handed? Messy?

>>3107365
pls respond

Look i'm not saying i'm hip. I just want my hobby alone and I don't want moronic youths pushing up prices on 70 years old pen, just so they become the next iPhone thing.

>>3107378
I can't say since i'm not lefthanded by these guys seems to manage.

http://www.nibs.com/Left-hand%20writers.htm

>>3107365
if you're left handed you just write right to left instead of left to right. Problem solvd.

>>3107379
>I don't want moronic youths pushing up prices on 70 years old pen
That won't happen.

Firstly they don't know what to do with them - second, they'll tire of them eventually and then you'll be in for a bargain deal when they need to unload to get credit for the next big thing.

But seriously, buy what you want now, because prices have just been going up and up and up....
(even on some relatively obscure brands!)

>>3107403
>Firstly they don't know what to do with them
And don't know what to look for in the first place - forgot to mention that.

Such a hobby (collecting vintage stationary) requires some back ground knowlege - the type you fear don't have the concentration to be able to do the required reading in order to know what's worht buying in the first place.

>>3107404
>Such a hobby (collecting vintage stationary) requires some back ground knowlege - the type you fear don't have the concentration to be able to do the required reading in order to know what's worht buying in the first place.

Look, they won't give a fuck about that. They just want a pen, which they can show off and throw away if it breaks.

Hell, a market where the pen is expensive is actually what they want. They thrive on exclusivity, obscurity and status.

>>3107404
Incidentally, you know what is _the_ hipster pen?

It's quite new, really.

The Parker Ingenuity.

It pretty much epitomises everything that's wrong with western civilisation at the moment.

It is the only suitable choice for the discerning hipster:

It's not a fountain pen, it only *looks* like one.
So, you don't have to re-learn how to write - it requires no effort, but you can ponce around with an imitation anyway.

So, you're trying to be poncy and write with a fountain in public, but since you can't into FP you get this... thing instead so that people will *think* you're poncing around with a fountain.
...
There are no suitable words, but it's literally disgusting.

Pure image - no substance.

Fuck you Parker (what the hell happened to you?)

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGmNWSz3yUs
A stroke of genius?
No.
A stroke of mass faggotry so vast that it'll swallow the world in it's retardation.

>>3107409
>Hell, a market where the pen is expensive is actually what they want. They thrive on exclusivity, obscurity and status.
Hmm..
That may be so. But I think they'll just go for this:
>>3107410
in stead.

>>3107410
That's how it starts. Then some faggot hipster will realize that it aint obscure enough. And they will buy a Parker 51. Only pro's know how to deal with those. And then some will say "No, Pelikan 100's" are true classic etc. etc. et.c..

2 years time. We will be there.

>>3107412
>status.
There's no status to vintage pens.

The only vintage pen that has "status" is the Montblanc 139 - firstly it's a MB, and what white star is well known enough, and secondly because it's a fucking 139 so every collector would sell his soul for one (if only to trade of cold hard cash or something else he really wanted).

As much as I rail against that company, they really have their marketing down pat. They are so skilled at making people want their products.

It's seductive - even down to the fucking packaging.

I went into one of their boutiques last week for a brief look and a fondle (of the pens), and very almost considered walking out with a 149.
...
I realised what was happening to me and managed to pull myself out of there 45mins later with a bottle of ink instead.

Seductive *and evil.

The Great Satan of the Pen World.

(Montblanc is to Pelikan what Rolex is to Omega what Coke is to Pepsi etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum)

>>3107416
>2 years time. We will be there.
Then you'd best get your buying and bidding on, sonny jim.

>>3107424
I am.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyINGL0IofM

>>3107416
>And then some will say "No, Pelikan 100's" are true classic
Too hard to find.

There are really millions and millions of 51's in existence.

That really is a classic (and is the closest thing to a Hipster Pen as there ever was last century, funnily enough - apparently every man and his dog wanted the fucking thing.)

>>3107426
What's your area? (what are you looking at? - just use abbreviations - I'll know what you mean - if you don't want to tip anyone off)

>>3107428
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyINGL0IofM
So it begins.

The End Times are upon us!

Every man (and his pens) for themselves!

>>3107433
Currently looking for scandinavian pens, brands that doesn't exist anymore. They are probably pretty shitty, but it's mostly a cultural thing. My grandfather used to have one called Runa.

http://www.reservoarpennor.se/index.php?menu=Projekt&page=Svensktillverkat&language=swedish

Lefty here. I've always been interested in working on my abysmal, hand cramp-inducing handwriting. Am I screwed with this fountain pen stuff? I've also had a vague interest in learning to write with my right hand.

>>3107341
HIpsters easily date back to the 80s and 90s lo-fi, twee and post-hardcore scenes. All of it was descended from the punk scene, another cliquish and consciously hip subculture in that era.

>>3107437
>They are probably pretty shitty
I wouldn't think so.

I once made an error (on here I think) of stating that there weren't an pure Scandinavian pen co's, and that they were all just foreign (German or US) subsidiaries in that region - with local factories making things for the internal market.
I now know that that's now precisely true, however they are quite obscure outside of that part of the world.

(it's like vintage Japanese pens - fucking impossible to get unless you actually live in Japan - god damned insular fucking communities and their secret goods)

>>3107445
>I now know that that's *not precisely true,

Fuck this gay tablet bullshit.

>>3107410
>>3107428
>Parker Ingenuity

mysideshaveexploded.exe

>>3107378
It depends on how you hold your pen and such, but if you try to get a fast-drying ink and a dry nib you should be set.

>>3107304
Interesting. How much further can I go back --- can I ask what Nietzsche, Marx &c. --- what writing instruments those writing in the second half of the 19th Century were using?

>>3107338
The great thing about Chinese pens is they are so cheap that you can buy lots of them, and even if they don't suit you, you will always get at least what you paid for.
I have a few Hero pens I can recommend, the 9075, and the 6111 (pic related), you can get these pens for about $5 each, and the Hero 616 comes in packs of 10 for about $15

>>3107461
Indeed, tremendous value if you get the good ones. So I would recommend buying specific models and makes that many other people have had some luck with.
You could still be a trailblazer - that Dutch guy routinely buys the cheapest chinese pens he can find on ebay to see how they hold up - he posts vids about the more promising specimens.

I have a Hero 336 that I bought in the Chinese quarter where I live; it's not bad at all - and I smoothed the nib out and now I use it with a red ink for corrections and annotations - it's quite a fine width nib, after all.
]
I was actually looking for vintage, new old stock Sheaffers, Parkers and others but they didn't have any. Apparently, and I only found that out a bit later, one guy had cleaned the whole area out... one fucking guy - cleans out an entire country of vintage, new old stock pens. Motherfuckingfucker.

>>3107459
>>3107459
I don't know for sure, but I think that it's highly probable that they only used dip pens (or just called "pens" back in the day). Fountains (pens with an inbuilt ink reservoir, and thus didn't require constant dipping into an inkwell) only really became big after Marx had already died. And whatever specimens were around were likely to have been prohibitively expensive at that (aristocracy and wealthy traders/statesmen only). By the turn of the century old Freddy was already mad as the cuckoo clock (then very dead) so I don't think he would've used one of the early fountains.

Very few of those old names are still around (and remembered).

It's getting hard to find pre-Great War pens.
However, things only really got interesting (and infinitely more beautiful and complex) in the inter-war period and beyond. Pens became *colourful for the first time, as before they were dull, pencil thin black affairs.

-=-=-=-=-
Churchill used an De la Rue Onoto, and perhaps a Conway Stewart too (only the Onoto company is mentioned in his private correspondence: he asks his wifey to send him a new one coz he'd "stupidly lost [his]".)

I think Gen. Eisenhower used a Parker 51 for the armistice and the German surrender, and that Gen. MacArthur used a Parker Duofold for the Japanese surrender (so when I say Parker was top of the world - factories one pretty much every continent apart from Antarctica - they really were).

HM the Queen uses the same Parker 51 she's been using for over 50 years.

>>3107459

Nietzsche wrote his books on an Ipad in between sips of hazelnut cappuccino at his favourite Starbucks.

why a fountain pen? Why not just a regular high quality pen?

>>3107501

Reason 1: fountain pens are friction-operated whilst regular pens rely on capillary action. The latter requires more forces and wears out your wrist faster.

Reason 2: If you're a writer you're meant to give a shit about aesthetics.

>>3107483
Oh? Well, I know that Fred was up with the times in acquiring in the 70s or 80s one of the first typerwriters, so I don't see why he would have been lagging in pen tech. Dip pens - were they quills, or were they a bit of wood or bone cradling a nib at the end?

>>3107484
Hasn't read Nietzsche.

>>3107501
Because fountain pens perform better, and are more flexible when it comes to ink choice.
There's no such thing as a regular high quality ball-pen, it's the same thing as a cheap ball-pen, just in different clothing.

>>3107509

Hasn't read Barthes.

>>3107529
I read his Mythologies a long time ago.

>>3107537

You didn't read Death of Author, though. If you did, you'd realise I don't have to read Nietzsche in order to discuss him. Somebody who actually has read Nietzsche doesn't have any more of an idea what he "really meant" than I do.

>>3107501
A regular high quality pen is a fountain pen.

They write better.
They don't tire you out.
They are eco-friendly.
They last longer.
They really become a personal belonging.
Easy to refill.
Will develop a distinct hand-writing.
Surprisingly enough, they also come cheap.

>>3107548

How are they eco-friendly?

Thanks a lot to everyone that responded and contributed, threads like these really makes /Lit/ to a better board.
I am gonna get my self a fountain pen now! :)

>>3107549
They last 70 years, it's not a one use then throw away.

If they break a single part can easily be replaced.

If you run out of ink, you refill the ink, not throw it away.

If you throw it away, all parts can be diassembled and sorted to either metal / plastics / gold etc...

>>3107541
Sure --- but I didn't imply that at all. They would at least know that he lived prior to the birth of Steve Jobs, and they would know that in the work of Nietzsche the author was always a living psychological type to be drawn out of the cipher of his work, and all philosophy was merely autobiography.

>>3107570
(I.E. Nietzsche's work does not support Barthes' death of the author, in fact the reverse -- which is often the case among Nietzsche's so-called disciples)

>>3107506
>Dip pens - were they quills, or were they a bit of wood or bone cradling a nib at the end?
Bit of wood.

I don't know when/who actually used the latter in that late stage.

>>3107570

>that he lived prior to the birth of Steve Jobs

Don't you get it? The author is DEAD. Nietzsche lives when I say he does.

>>3107556
>They last 70 years,
And longer.

And if the iridium wears out you can just get it re-tipped.

They are heirloom items - like watches (like decent, mechanical watches that is).
Buy a decent one, use it for your lifetime and pass it on. If it's cared for it will continue to be of service.

They retain a very personal history more than any other tool, IMO.

I like them because they are opposed to this disposable culture we are currently in.

How many bic ballpoints have you thrown away in your lifetime?

>>3107577
Isn't it a little obvious for a troll to abuse Barthes like this? I think Barthes was wrong and Nietzsche did too.

>>3107576
>bone
Yes, and ivory and metal filigree etc., for the wealthy. Those ones usually had a gold (tipped) nib instead of a removable (ultimately disposable when strung) steel nib.

I'm thinking about going for a Pelikan as a "last me all my life" present to myself. How much should I invest in a pen like that, and what do you recommend?

>>3107587
Before you buy something expensive, try some cheaper kinds out.

>>3107587
If you are a beginner/never used one before:

You don't have to invest all that much.
Most pens, if well cared for, will last a long time (these new acrylics are much more hardy than the pre-acrylic bakelite/ebonite/celluloid/casein of old, many of which are literally disintegrating as we type).

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, please don't buy (and subsequently ruin) a vintage pen right off the bat.
Start off with a starter pen first, then go for your "one pen". It'll save you the money and will help you familiarise yourself with how a fountain pen writes, how the ink/paper/nib and feed dynamic works for you etc.

You cannot recommend such a thing (a "one pen") to someone who has no experience with such things.

How much pressure do you write with? (zero is needed, but people sometimes retain that heavy hand from their ballpoint/pencil days).
Do you like wet writers or dry writers?
What inks do you like to use?
What line thickness? Do you prefer harder nibs or softer nibs?

etc., etc.

Too many questions and too many variables.
Start with a basic starter pen that's >30USD.

Then come back and ask your question.

>>3107601
Oh, and if Pelikan is in your sites, I'd get started on that "starter" pen business toot sweet as their prices are (unfortunately) going skyward at an ever increasing rate.

Unfortunately, Pelikan does not have the formidable marketing resources of the Richemont luxury group that Montblanc can draw upon, and thus Montblanc has managed to attain the perception that they are the best German pen maker. And it's just that, a mere perception held by countless social climbing yuppies and bolstered by adverts in glossy magazines (and in the consumer world, that's all that matters - perception of quality supersedes real quality) - Pelikan's are, mechanically, superior and are the originators of the technology that Montblanc currely use. Montblanc were very good, but have suffered from the usual malaise that a company suffers from when bought out by an amorphous luxury goods group.

In short, Pelikan is not doing very well as a company, and fewer people recognise them for the quality writing instrument that they are. Continuing loss in sales has precipitated price increases 4 times in the past 2 years (though the price of gold has something to do with that - and that's at crazy levels at the moment).

So, either they're raising prices to try and attain that "exclusivity" perception that MB has (purely by being incredibly expensive and unattainable to the masses) or they're doing it to keep their heads above the water. Either way it sucks, so act soon.

mon visage quand ce thread

>>3107642

I can tell you don't speak french

>>3107318
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PELIKAN-Pelikano-Steel-and-Blue-Fountain-Pen-Medium-Nib-/360503886966?pt=
AU_PensWritingItems&hash=item53efb4c476

Would that be a good pen to fuck around with until I upgrade?

>>3107601
Thanks for your posts. I don't know shit about adjusting nibs. I have a chinese fountain pen at the moment which I'm just easing into it that cost 5usd - kaigelu.

>>3107647
It's okay. It's the previous Pelikano model (the new one is, IMO fatter and uglier).

Since they were designed as pens for school kids "back in the day"
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5_F7GrzSPw
they can only comfortably be used with disposable ink cartridges.

>>3107745
However,
If you want to play with bottled inks, then it might be problematic. You can try, but the problem is finding the "converter" - a kind of non-disposable ink cartridge thingy that allows for from bottle filling - that fits it.

They usually cost around 5 bucks extra. I've heard that the converters that Pelikan issue fit that Pelikano better than other ones (certain brands can only use converters and ink cartridges that fit their pens and their pens alone, like Lamy, Parker, Cross and all the Japanese brands - but some use "universal" converters and ink cartridges; Pelikan use the more common universal kind which is why it's odd that the Pelikan branded converter, for all intents and purposes the same as the other "universal" or "international" converters, fits best - just what I heard).

Still, if you want that pen (and it's pretty decent, though I've only held that particular model once so I'm no great authority on all school pens) and still want to use bottled inks when you get sick of ink cartridges, then you can refill the spent cartridges with a syringe and a blunt needle from an ink bottle (there are various kits for sale out there in the aether if you can't find those at your local chemist).

I personally don't like pens that can only use cartridges, because I just don't use them. (they're part of that disposability culture, in my eyes)

In the 12 years that I've been writing with a fountain pen, I've used like 3 ink cartridges. I prefer pens with integrated filling mechanisms but, if the price is right I suppose, will settle for something with the uninspiring ability to use a converter to fill from a bottle. (it's a half-arsed compromise IMO)

>>3107751
The integrated filling mechanism that Pelikan introduced to the market back in the 20's/30's (which now everyone has copied) is really tops. With such pens you can only use bottled inks, just the way I like it.

Unfortunately, those Pelikans are much more expensive that that humble Pelikano, so not good for a starter pen.

I'd say that Pelikano is "good nuff", but if you want assured ease with bottled inks as well as cartridges, then the Lamy Safari type pens have a converter that will most assuredly fit (so in that case you could use either cartridges or bottled ink with relative ease).

>>3107459
>can I ask what Nietzsche, Marx &c. --- what writing instruments those writing in the second half of the 19th Century were using?

>>3107751
>I personally don't like pens that can only use cartridges, because I just don't use them. (they're part of that disposability culture, in my eyes)
But I do recognise the ease it grants to the student.
A pocket full of ink cartridges will ensure that you never run out of ink mid school day (or test, or exam finals).

I lived at my school, so I would return to the boarding house to fill my pen from the bottle constantly (fucking converters don't hold all that much ink - about half what a piston filled pen holds).

I think I used to fill her up, on average, twice a day.

At university, I had to carry two pens and still would run occasionally (though instead of crawling all the way back to my college I'd just carry a fucking ink bottle with me - average fills: 3 times a day).

That's why I'm just so against those pens; I used them for 10 years and just had had enough thus when I graduated decided enough's enough and went looking for a pen that could hold a decent volume of ink.

That was two years ago when I found such a pen.

Unfortunately I cannot stop buying them.

Be careful - this can turn into a full-fledged hobby before you know it.

Admittedly, my schooling days would've just been easier if I'd just used fucking ink cartridges.
But I didn't.
So meah.

The Reform 1745 is a nice, simple, fine-nibbed piston filler.
You can get 2 NOS (new old stock) for about $12 on eBay.

>>3107745
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5_F7GrzSPw
incidentally, the pen that the little clutz uses in @1:06 is a pen with an integrated filler - in that case, a piston filler.

Thus the Pelikano saved thousands of little West German boys' and girls' school uniforms from ink spillage, to the grateful relief of the West German Hausfrau and (secret former Nazi) West German Schulleiter (who was no doubt also into S&M and other sexual depravities).

>>3107784
Yes!
That is a very good starter pen!
I'm embarrassed I didn't think of it, considering I've got one on my table staring me in the face.

It's quite a thin little pen, but that's good I suppose for folks that are used to thin pencils and ballpoints.

Excellent suggestion!

>>3105473
You have very nice handwriting.
Was it all done with the JH159?

Would you mind posting some more samples of your "hand"?

>>3107789
>Thus the Pelikano saved thousands of little West German boys' and girls' school uniforms from ink spillage,
Whereas the poor little East German Boys and Girls suffered with substandard crap.

>>3107812
Not to mention drowning in ink.

that soviet production system

>>3107794
>It's quite a thin little pen
Yes, it is, I've found that I prefer the control a thinner pen, like the Chinese pens I mentioned in >>3107461 , gives me (I don't have big hands).
The Jinhao 149 on the other hand, though a beautiful pen and well worth the measly price, was too big and heavy for me. The broad nib on the Jinhao wasn't to my liking either, but that's another matter entirely.

>>3107804
That's an image I nabbed from google, it came from FPN originally, my handwriting is nowhere near as nice I'm afraid.
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/216230-jinhao-159/
If you look through the pen and ink reviews on FPN you'll find plenty of examples of great penmanship

TROUBLESHOOTING

Okey, I just received a new pen with the mail. An older parker celluloid type, and holy fuck my new parker is plain shit.

It's like I have a totally new writing style with the flex. (first flex pen).

Anyway, I've detected a problem, With all my leftward strokes then pen etches into the paper. I've detected that the nib is uneven, left and right is not at the same level.

What can one do to remedy this?

>>3107830
Do you mean the tines are uneven like one would be closer to the viewer in this pic, or that one tine is longer than the other?

>>3107818
I've found thinner pens to be best for precision work, like mathematics/economics work or bookkeeping.

Fatter pens (and broader nibs) lend ease to longer writing sessions.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
One note to those considering:
As a general rule, finer nibs won't be as smooth as broader nibs; there's just less tipping on the nib - the point (har har) of that matter is in the tipping material - it doesn't matter if the nib is gold or steel or titanium or even palladium, they've all got to have a tipping material on the tip of the nib and that's what actually touches the paper and distributes ink onto it.
Smoothness of writing depends not only on the two tines being aligned, but also on the shape of the nib tipping.

Finer nibs have less tipping, whilst broader nibs have more - that larger surface area generally means for a smoother ride.

But, if your Hand is small, a broader nib just won't do, will it? Hence the Medium nibs as a sort of mid-way.

I've found that, say in a exam situation where one must write a lot, very quickly, a thicker pen with a broader nib is probably best.

But when I'm not rushed, a medium sized pen (not pencil thin, not fat fucker cigar MB149) with a medium or fine nib is most comfortable. (unless I'm writing a letter, in which case bring on the big fat nibs)

I suppose it's because of the tendency to apply more pressure (and squeeze the pen more) when writing at breckneck speed.

.

>>3107858
Applying pressure on a Fine nib (or an Extra fine for that matter) is not a good idea, as you'll end up digging the nib into the paper and scratching the hell out of everything. (they're quite sharp, XFine nibs).

So, thicker/medium pens for longer, or longer and faster, sessions and a thicker nib. Thicker pens can help relax the hand more when writing, where thinner pens might encouraged a very tight grip that is not advisable (which is what you were trying to get away from in the first place)

Other nib widths are dependent on the situation

>>3107841
The tines are uneven. The left one is slightly above the right one.

Also, I realize now that I might have to clean this Vacumatic. I bought one because I saw in an earlier thread a guy that got one for 25 dollars.

>>3107860

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/270631-Restoration-of-a-Parker-Vacumatic

Just found this.

>>3107858
I think I write with my fountain pen upside down to make the nib less broad, is this retarded?

>>3107871
>I think I write with my fountain pen upside down to make the nib less broad, is this retarded?

Very common trick.

>>3107874
So it doesn't make me look like a retard?

By the way, the ink leaks a little from my ink channel and breather hole, --- that normal?

>>3107830
>Okey, I just received a new pen with the mail. An older parker celluloid type,
>and holy fuck my new parker is plain shit.

Congratulations!
You've just taken your first steps into a larger world (and have held in hand evidence of just how uncivilised we have become and how nothing lasts; not Parker's market standing, not their quality, nothing)

As for the nib, is it only the left direction?

Have you checked every direction? (like the pic)

You can check for misalignment with a loupe, or, if you've not that, by using binoculars backwards on it.

Funnily enough that works! Try and look at the nib through the large lenses (the ones you would normally be looking out of if you were using the binocs properly).

I've never managed to align properly the softer,n flexier gold nibs (stiffer nibs are easier to nudge back into level shape and ensure that it'll stay there - the flexier ones? They just spring back, don't they)

Use a loupe to ensure it's misalignment and not what this anon
>>3107841
mentioned; old pens (especially _that_ old) sometimes have had the tipping material chipped off, perhaps only on one side.

No amount of nudging with fix that (the nib would have to be ground so that the tipping levels were equal again)

>>3107880
I would still laugh, because that is a common mistake with people who have never used a FP before and pick one up, writing with the wrong side.

However, since most people *don't know how to write with a fountain pen, much less that they exist in the first place, then you really have nothing to worry about.

>>3107874
Yes, it is that. It's best when the pen is still smooth when using the flip side. Only a few makers actively grind their nibs in such a way that this is meant to be an actual feature; in most cases you're just lucky that it works and isn't scratchy as hell.

>>3107860
>Also, I realize now that I might have to clean this Vacumatic. I bought one because I saw in an earlier thread a guy that got one for 25 dollars.
Yeaaaah that's why I only buy pre-restored pens. I just can't be fucked restoring them and getting the tools where I am is a hassle.

>>3107885
Hey bourgeoisfag stop stealing my militant nihilist symbol

>>3107899
>militant nihilist symbol
You realise it's from fantasy story books, right?

>>3107899

nice marmot

>>3107906
wat

1. It sits like a mufucka. Wat do? Hot water?

2. Uneven tines

3. Seems fine otherwise

>>3107927
Also, I just washed it with water, all of the sudden red ink is coming out?

Is this old ink, or just really really washed out blue one?

>>3107930

>>3107209
>other auctionhouses
such as?

>>3108031
Whatever is in your local area? Some countries have alternatives to e-bay.

>>3108048
You're right, it never crossed my mind to check,
but alas, I just did and there's not much on it

>>3108048
So, I was bored and wrote a short short love letter with a tweeeest.

I really need to improve my writing.

Also: I've fixed the problem with the nib (however the pen is really scratchy, i really dont mind tho).

But the feed seems broken, ink leaks from the pump on top.

>>3107365
Fine with quick drying ink, get used to writing with your hand above the line.

I use Parker's Quink, it's cheap, okayish and dries quick

Semi related.
I guess the answer is just practice but what's the best way to become ambidextrous? I'm a lefty trying to switch

>>3108191

traitor to the cause

you'll be first against the wall

>>3108193
Think of me as a double agent, southpaw at heart...

>>3108142
What black is that?

>>3107304
what did the soviets use?

>>3108142
What paper is that?

too bad about parker, the sonnet looks amazing but they have let QC slip to shit.

>>3108205
>>3108199
Rohrer & Klinger Schreibtinte Blau-Schwartz Limited Edition

The paper I don't know just some random notebook - no brand.

>>3107830
pics nigger

>>3108361
see
>>3107927
>>3107927
>>3107927

this thread needs collection pics

IT'S FOUNTAINPEN DAY MOTHERFUCKERS
>http://www.fountainpenday.org/

>>3107927
>Hot water

Unless in perhaps some very specific repair operation, you don't want to be sticking the pen in hot water (or were you referring to the nib?)

Hot water (and just water in general) don't play well with celluloid, ebonite, casein -fucking casein a million times casein- and pens with moving metal parts like lever fillers.

Rule of thumb: don't unnecessarily wet a barrel of a vintage pen (like, don't submerge it totally in water), especially a lever filler as you don't want that mechanism to get liquid trapped in it and rust.

>>3107930
>Is this old ink, or just really really washed out blue one?

Funnily enough it could have been another colour once upon a time. Inks are just chemicals mixed together, after all, and thus over years and years (that vacumatic is pre-war) those chemicals break down in funny ways.

Does the filling mechanism still work?
Seriously, as much as I like vintage pens, they can be such a fucking hassle to repair, maintain, and keep clean.
Cleaning/flushing sac-pens (levers, vacs et. al.) really is a chore.

Hence, modern pens for that convenience. (there are good ones still out there)

>But the feed seems broken, ink leaks from the pump on top.
I don't quite understand: is the feed (black thing nestled under the nib) broken? Or is it the vac plunger thing?

>>3109364
>Seriously, as much as I like vintage pens, they can be such a fucking hassle to repair, maintain, and keep clean.
>Cleaning/flushing sac-pens (levers, vacs et. al.) really is a chore.
Yeah, there's a good reason those types of pens are no longer being made.

>>3109364
>>3109378
That's why noobs should stick to modern pens and not ruin vintage pens (yet).

>>3108223
>Rohrer & Klinger Schreibtinte Blau-Schwartz Limited Edition
lol you bought that?
...
(is it any good?)

>>3107745
>>3107751
>>3107754
>>3107773
Is there an entry level fp you can recommend which uses only bottle filling?

>>3109792
most pens you can either buy a converter (which allows you fill up from a bottle) or they come with one already installed

>>3109792
that being said lamy safari is a good starter pen and you would have to spend and extra 5 dollars to buy the converter to allow you fill from a bottle.

>>3109792
If you want it only for bottle filling, any pen that uses a converter will do; just never use ink cartridges.

The most common kind of converter is the pictured piston converter.

It is essentially a piston filling mechanism which is removable.

This greatly facilitates cleaning, and maintenance.

>>3109846
However, if it's strictly bottle filling only, then there is the Reform 1745 as mentioned by someone above - it's a German pen from the 80's/90's (company just went out of business so they're NewOldStock).
They're piston filling (the non-removable kind, and thus more difficult to clean and maintain). It holds no real ink volume advantage over a piston converter, and holds less than the standard "Long" International cartridge (carts. come in long and short - longs hold a lot more than short, and almost as much as some integrated fillers)

There are also the Noodler's Piston filled pens (Noodler's is a wonderful ink maker - and the creator's philosophy is completely opposed to wasteful ink cartridges, so all his pens are bottle only):
The Ahab (largest)
The Konrad (medium)
and the Creaper "Flex". (like the Reform, doesn't have the ink volume advantage over long carts., and is about the same small size too)

However, as much as I love those pens there really are not a good choice for a first pen.
The main board on the Fountainpennetwork is absolutely littered with posts from noobies, all asking the same questions (asking for help), that had no idea what they were getting themselves into. These pens, though trememdous value for you you get and what can be achieved with them,
can be some of the most frustrating pens to get to work properly.
I do not recommend them as a first pen because if you get one that requires some fiddling to get going, then the experience will put you off using a fountian pen at all.
They are really, really good when you get them working properly (and they max out at only 20USD) but you're in for a frustrating time if you don't know what you're doing and get a problematic one (% of which are high)

>>3109849
Some Chinese pens, notable the Hero pens mentioned here (I forget the model numbers, but the only one I have is a 336) are bottle fill only, and use an integrated filling mechanism lifted from the famous Parker 51 mentioned above (called an "Aerometric" mechanism)
These are really quite cheap and Hero pens can be bought it bulk on ebay - that would be needed because half might be duds.
(there are even fake Hero pens - Hero's are Parker rip off from when the People Repbulic sized the Parker factories on the Mainland when they took over - they kept the schematics and machinery, and have been churning out old Parker knockoffs for decades - so it's funny that there are fakes of a "fake". (and these super reconstituted ones are really quite crappy).

do most of you write your cursive with your hand or with your arm?

>>3109850
Thus, in short, I would recommend for a first pen any pen that uses a converter/cartridge system as they are the easiest to clean, repair and maintain and are the most readily available
Hence why:
>>3109817
and so many others recommend that particular pen as a beginner pen.

It is relatively inexpensive, it's made of very sturdy plastic (so they can be thrown around in a bag - on the floor and not break - built for rough handling), the grip forces you to learn how to hold a pen properly etc., etc.

It is the quintessential student's pen - and that's precisely what it was designed for in the first place.
.

>>3109856
Write with your arm.
And never with your fingers unless you're doing precision work like equations or diagrams.

It's how I got through university finals when everyone else got hand cramps half way through a paper.

>>3109864
+1
If you're doing it properly, the arm tires far less quickly than the hand.

>>3109849
>The main board on the Fountainpennetwork is absolutely littered with posts from noobies, all asking the same questions
I really am so fucking sick of that.
If they'd done some reading before running off and just buying "hurrdurr i wants me sum flex!" then they would know what the deal is with those pens.

I love my Ahab but it took me more than a week to get it working

and many tears were shed throughout ;_;

>>3103795
As mentioned by other, FPN's Penmanship board can be helpful for improving your hand writing.
Lots of friendly people willing to give you a hand if you ask politely.
>http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/forum/12-penmanship/

>>3107614
I know it sounds like I rag on Montblanc a lot (it really is one of those companies that you can just love to hate) but they do make a quality product (to a degree).

Do I think they can justify the prices they charge for their products? (in relation to other makers products?)
No. Definitely not.

I do desire one MB pen though (shock horror), and that is the pen pretty much any collector desires at some stage (and usually attains and then either keeps or sells on) and that's the yard stick of the luxury pen world:
the Montblanc 149.

Sure it's not "sex as a pen" as some of the Italian products are, but it's the closest the Teutonicals can get to it.

Thick, sexy black coc--cigar. (yes, "cigar" is what I meant)

The curves.

The girth (good heavens!)

The mirrored blackness reflecting nothing but greed.

The humongous fucking no.9 size nib!

There's no wonder it's been their flagship for over 50 years and, as I said, the yard stick to which all other luxury/high-end fountain pens are inevitably compared.

I'm waiting for the right vintage - and that's the only thing that stopped me that day in the boutique (the new ones are inferior to the old ones, but sell for much more than what the old ones sold for - funny that).

It's too big for me to carry around. It would sit, extravagantly, on my desk; its density sucking small desk detritus into it's swirling dark vortex.

It would be grand.
It would be great.

then I'd sell the bitch, after I'd had my fill of her magnificence - her glory spent, she shines no more. Such is the way of things, such is the nature of the Pen Collector

>>3109849
So you're saying if I buy the reform 1745 (I found one on ebay I can buy) over the
PELIKAN Pelikano, I will run into problems?

>>3109935
>dat precious resin
>dat overprices precious resin

>>3109952
ugh, fucking sleep deprivation
*overpriced

>>3109948
Also, Is there a place I can buy the reform brand new?

>>3109948
>>3109969
Look for the ones labelled "New Old Stock" or NOS.
They are brand new - never been used. They've just been sitting in reserve since the company disappeared. There still plenty of old stock floating around, languishing in sellers' storerooms.

I can't say that you *will run into problems, only that if there are problems from the get go or if they develop along the way (due to user or manufacturing error) then the Pelikano would be easier to deal with.

Say if you carelessly left the pen for long enough that the ink dried inside (a big no no, btw - the time that would take varies from pen to pen, from a few days to a few months - years even), then the Pelikano can be easily remedied, whereas the Reform would probably need some bigger work (especially if the piston seals fail).

Still, it's only 12 bucks or so, right?
And add in a bottle of ink and you're nearly at the price of the Pelikano linked up there somewhere (which came with its own cartridges, I think).

Just get something. Enjoy it. Care for it. If it breaks, it's not the end of the world.

>>3110071
>Just get something. Enjoy it. Care for it. If it breaks, it's not the end of the world.
Just don't do this with an irreplaceable vintage pen (they're all irreplaceable).

>>3109952
Indeed.

I had to resist from smirking when the sales women were trying to extol me on the virtues of their precious (oh so precious) resin.

Lol - turns out it's pretty much the same acrylic used by others (but shiner, and more brittle than say, Pelikan's "noble resin").
The pre-Richemont models were made of sturdier materials.

>>3107927
I don't those sections unscrew. I think they're stuck on by friction and strengthened with shellac or something.
Send that thing in to get properly restored.

>>3110071
Thanks for your help.

>>3107927
I don't think those sections unscrew. I think they're stuck on by friction and strengthened with shellac or some other glue.
Send that thing in to get properly restored.

Oh, another very good entry level pen:
the Sheaffer "No nonsense".
I think they were still USA made (Sheaffer's are no longer made in the USA).

You can find them on ebay NOS - excellent pen because you can get extra nib sections of differing nib widths so that you can swap them around if you get bored/want to try broader/finder or italics.

Great pen.

Fairly new to fountain pens, can I get some ink recs please? I'm using Parker Quink at the moment because I can buy it locally and it's relatively cheap. Is there anything better out there?

Is there any reason to be good at handwriting in this modern era? What benefits does it really give you? I have shit-tier penmanship.

>>3111264
Some people use handwriting as a way of forming opinions of people, that being said I usually hate people with perfect writing

>>3111245
also must be fast drying

>>3111245
>Is there anything better out there?
Everything is better than Quink.

The blue will fade, so don't write anything you want to read well in the next 5 years with it.

And the black is not so much black but a grey.

Blergh.

More questions:
Do you have access to e-commerce? - Where do you live in the world, and what pen will you be using?

>>3111264
>Is there any reason to be good at handwriting in this modern era? What benefits does it really give you? I have shit-tier penmanship.

For me personally, I feel the word as I write. Kinda of like you recite poetry, you can taste the word as your saying them out loud. Rewriting a poem with a fountain pen, I usually rewrite poetry and I have a new found for certain words while others I don't like as much.

Also: It is very relaxing.

To the guy who was asking about the Hero 9075,
the converter will hold about as much ink as a standard short cartridge,
I'm having trouble finding out what size cartridge it would take, my best guess is a Parker cartridge but I don't have one on hand to check.
The deluxe Parker converter I have won't fit, but the standard one (pic related) looks like it might.

>>3111306
>Do you have access to e-commerce? - Where do you live in the world, and what pen will you be using?

No to e-commerce

I'm in England

I have a Lamy Safari and a Parker Vector, I find the Lamy to be scratchy (I'm left handed) but I might ask for a new pen for christmas if I find anything I really want.

I also wouldn't want to spend much more than £10 for a bottle as it's for day to day writing.

>>3111306
To be fair there's worse blacks than Quink.

>>3111323
Ask for a Namiki Falcon

>>3111323
Look in to Diamine inks, they're relatively cheap (~£6 for 80ml) and made in Liverpool.

>>3111331
>this guy again
You love your Namiki Falcon don't you?
Ahab > Falcon

>>3111340
I love it's distinct style

>>3111334
I'll have a look, thanks.

>>3111323
>England
You live in the origin country of Diamine inks.
They have many, many colours and are quite wonderful.
Check the FPN ink reviews list for reviews of a particular one that catches your eye.

You can buy direct them in stores somewhere surely.

Where in England?

>>3111334
Oh, didn't see that it'd been answered.

Buy yeah, of the few Diamine's that I have, I like them and hope to get more (unfortunately I live at quite a distance - and oddly enough it's been hitherto cheaper to get them from Sweden of all places - not that I'm anywhere near Scandinavia nor Europe at all, for that matter)

>>3111340
>Ahab > Falcon
Damn fucking straight.

*Noodler'sinkybrofist

>>3111363
About 20 miles outside of London

Shops here sell Quink and those stubby generic cartridges. There are probably specialist shops in London but I've never really looked.

>>3111374
>There are probably specialist shops in London but I've never really looked.
That's where you must go.

Yard-o-led's (the english pen brand) are just re-packaged Diamine.

I would advise looking at the Diamine colours here:
>http://www.gouletpens.com/Swab_Shop_Diamine_s/827.htm

And then reading reviews of the interesting ones here:
>http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/160612-index-of-ink-reviews/#D

Have fun, you've taken your first steps into a more colourful and vibrant world (you'll likely never use Quink again)

>>3111327
Are these your own swabs?

>>3111392
Nope, pretty much everything related to fountain pens that one pulls off google images comes from FPN
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=89929

>>3111408
Tis the great hub - have you ever been to the exile's forum? (it's kinda sad, really)

>>3111412
The who? No, I just lurk, I don't know anything about the politics of the fountain pen community.

>>3111388
I'm the guy who was asking about inks, in the off chance anyone was lurking this link has been useful for me

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/160612-index-of-ink-reviews/

>>3111327
oh shit MB, wtf are you doing?

>>3111412
exiles? people have gotten banned from fpn?

>>3111487
They got caught using biros

>>3111481
They can't even make a black ink that's black and they expect me to pay €600 for a pen?
I'll stick to the $10 knock off for now.

>>3111520
>They can't even make a black ink that's black and they expect me to pay €600 for a pen?

Fatty fatty fat fat

>>3111520
Their ballpoints are pretty good though.

This is a big thread, so no I didn't read every damn word. If I missed it please forgive me, but what can anyone say about pen and ink. Not "fountain pen", which I suspect refers only to pens that hold ink. I've got a lot of family letters and journals from the 1800s, and among the other items I have is a pen that has several detachable nibs. It is small, metal and obviously intended to be portable. Not fancy at all, in any way. The nibs are all gathered on a green ribbon, tied together in a bundle. I got some ink the other day and have been practicing...am getting better, but I find it's tough to get the ink to flow smoothly and consistently. I certainly can't match it to the skill in the letters yet. But....how much ink to load? When to use a thinker nib or a slimmer one? The fine ones are very hard to get to keep the ink. I also orient it in the way I see everyone else using one, and I get a splotch followed by a quick fade of what I'm writing (it all pours out in the first character). But if I turn the nib counter to what I suspect is the correct position, I can get a straight and steady line all the way across the page. Has anyone tried pen and ink (not a loaded fountain pen)? pic related, stylus from 1600's.

>>3111609
That is basically like dipping a fountain pen instead of loading it with ink, it works very well.

Also: pics

>>3111615
I'm at the office...surrounded by keyboards, but I'll take a pic when I get home tonight. it's a pretty cool little thing, and even my practice sheet looks cool.
I'm just confused by the fact that if I use it "upside down" to what I've always done or seen with nibs, it works very well. With the concave part facing UP...it holds the ink in the groove instead of gravity pulling it down onto the page.

>>3111609
I'm by no means an expert but I'm guess you've got a dip pen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dip_pen

>mfw these threads are some of the best ones on /lit/

What if we could discuss books like we discussed pens :(

>>3111649
Shame there isn't a writing board, then /lit/ could be pure literary discussion with writing (including handwriting) on the other board.

It will never happen though.

one of these days i'll have a nice pen tray like this that will sit on my bookshelf, one of these days.

>>3111894
Is there a name for those transparent pens?

>>3111899
platinum preppy

>>3111904
Cheap as chips too, might have to get one. Thanks!

>>3111520
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Jinhao-159-Large-Black-Fountain-Pen-50G-148-mm-Length-NJ129-BUSINESS-/390
441209521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae81c0eb1


How long do you think this thing will last?

>>3111550

They don't make their ballpoint refills.

Schmidt makes them, and MB just rebrand it.
If you buy a MB refill (Roller/ballpoint etc) then you're just paying for an overpriced refill that you can get elsewhere.

>>3111894
It's just a cigar box converted into a pen box (makes sense, doesn't it? - one could even use it as an undersized vibrator box too, if you were so inclined).

People make them and they're sold from time to time.

You could just get a cigar box and make your own though, I'd imagine that would be cheaper.

>>3112674
Like all Chinese pens, quality control is pretty much nonexistent - although more people have had luck with these than others pens.

Some have had problems, and they've lasted a month or two, for others it's 6 months and counting. I've had one for 3 months and it's been okay.

For $10 shipped, that's not such a high risk, considering the pen you do get (for that price)

>>3112674
its gone, what was it?

>>3112757
What's gone?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390441209521?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

>>3112757
It's been mentioned already several times upthread:
Jinhao 159

Just a reminder to everyone who's rushed off and bought a FP:

You cannot write with them (shouldn't) as you would a ballpoint; indeed, that would defeat the purpose entirely.

Ballpoints require pressure induced friction - fountain's do not;" they glide across the page on a thin, lubricating stream of ink". Pressure can be added, but it really only has to be the downward pressure created by the weight of the pen in your hand - no extra "pushing down" is required from your hand.

Position of the writing surface, of the arms relative to the writing surface, how the pen is held in the hand etc., are all important factors in writing with one properly (and thus reaping the pleasures and benefits of FP writing).

Tips:
Don't write with you fingers or hand. Write with the whole arm.

You might need to clear some space on your desk, but try this:
Pen in hand - do not grip it too tightly - resist the urge to give it a death grip/pressured grip like you might've with a ballpoint/pencil.

Grip should be firm enough that the pen doesn't slide out when you hold it up, but not so tight that, if someone wished to, they could with relative ease pull the pen (from the back end - not the nib end that's touching paper) out of your hand. So firm for keeping the pen positioned right when writing, but otherwise looseygoosey.

Lighter pens might need some more grip than heavier pens (that generally have all the balance they need inherently - with a heavier pen, you can be lazier and just use the weight of the pen to help you write - I can't really put it into the correct words).

>>3112766
>Don't write with you fingers or hand. Write with the whole arm.

Pen in hand:
there are several grips out there, but try first the tripod grip: Only middle finger, index and thum hold the pen on the section (the grip part near the nib - where it's comfy - if you wish hold the pen higher on the barrel if that suits you).

The barrel of the pen should then nestle in that webbing that's between you thumb and you index finger.

Now, say you're sitting at a cleared desk with the writing surface in front of you (just use a looseleaf for now - flatter is easier to practice on rather than trying to hold open a booklet/journal with your other hand), put the writing arm's elbow on the table (that will act as a fulcrum).

You'll notice that then you bring your arm down, your hand is at an angle compared to the paper.

If you're right handed, rotate the paper 45deg's or so (maybe a bit less) to the left - if you're left handed look here (actually, righties look here too so you can sorta see what I'm on about):
>http://www.nibs.com/Left-hand%20writers.htm

That elbow on the table will help you keep the side of your hand (the side with the pinky) from lazily, and heavily resting on the table or paper, smudging everything and making you write badly.

Instead, that elbow helps you hold the pen floating above the paper.

Now, that can be difficult to write with, so use the tips of your little finger and or ring finger to rest lightly on the paper too. They will help you keep control and balance.

Or, if you find you need more of the above, you could curl those fingers and thus rest a larger surface on the paper - but remember, a light touch; don't push down with your hand (the weight of the pen should be all you need).

Actually, disregard all that:
Just look here
>http://palmermethod.com/introductory/lesson-1/

>>3112674
>How long do you think this thing will last?
It depends.
If you use it as an everyday pen for tons of writing...I don't know.
If you just ink it up every now and then it should last as long as any other pen really.

>>3112674
It'll last the whole night long, baby.

>>3113092
the thick black ones usually do

>>3113502
>being coal burner
>2012

>>3113562
a*

http://fpgeeks.com/2012/10/fptv-33-live-broadcast-watch-it-here-saturday-27-october-2012/

>>3111609

>>3113680
I'm there!

>>3113699
the four nibs have slots on the end that you insert beneath the screw on top of the barrel. i'm not really sure what the curved piece is for...i have a vague idea i'll post in another pic

>>3113702
is it to place my finger on and help guide the pen, which is rather small anyway?

>>3113699
here's a shot of the underneath, where you slide the slot of the nib under the nut

>>3113708
last shot of the four nibs.

>>3113699
That's a coincidence, I was looking at a thread on FPN the other day where someone was trying to identify that pen, the ebay auction he linked to said it was an early Waterman.
The folks on FPN thought it was just a sewing awl or some similar instrument.
I'll try find the thread again if I can.

>>3113716
well, if it's a sewing awl, I'm able to write with it. that is a coincidence. let me know if you can find that link. admittedly i haven't done any research on it. i've only had it for about 6 months and am just now getting into it. my great great grandfather and other relatives did a lot of missionary work so there are a lot of "portable" type of family things. i think this was meant as a traveling pen rather than one for a desk and office.

>>3112741
i know people make them and i could get them on ebay I'm just saying one of these days I'll have enough pens to justify buying one of those.

>>3113733
Ok, here's the thread. Personally I don't know what to make of it.
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/218091-unusual-pen/page__view__findpost__p_
_2296534__hl__

>>3113958
Wow that's great! They are totally wrong, it's a pen. If he had a better pic of it like mine they'd clearly see it's a pen nib. Waaay to weak metal for sewing, also. These wouldn't puncture leather well. But I have to join to comment...

>>3114177
pfft, forget it. i joined and everything so i could reply, but i can't reply or even start a new topic and don't want to spend any more time with it. too bad they went away thinking it was some sort of sewing implement.

>>3113958
and also, thanks for the link, it was good to see the pics he posted.

bump

Alright so I read a bit of this thread and I've decided to purchase a Lamy Safari as my first fountain pen. What nib size would you all recommend for a complete beginner? Is it just personal preference? Right now I'm leaning towards fine as it seems to have a good width.

>>3116441
Depends on personal preference and what you'll be writing on.
If you use small notebook for example a fine might be best.

>>3116441
If all that you're used to is finer gelpens and ballpoints, then fine will have to do.
(Lamy EF and F - I've not noticed a real difference tbh)

>>3116441
lamy is infamous for its sizing its nibs to big so a medium writes pretty big, a fine more like a medium and ef more like a fine.

>>3116827
I read this anecdote a lot.
Are they bigger compared to what else?

IME: Lamy are sized pretty much in line with other euro brands - medium being pretty much medium and broad being bigger than that.

The finer nibs can, as per
>>3116508
get a little wonky perhaps.

Lamy are wider compared to Asian brands but then again so are all Western brands compared to the Japanese and Chinese.

But, say on the Lamy 2000 there is no distinguishable difference between the EF and F nibs - I tried every all of them in the shop, same paper and ink.

Just bad qc in that regard methinks.

bumpette

The only Lamy pen I have is an italic fine.
The only other italic fine nib I have is on an old Osmiroid pen, which is much finer than the Lamy.
I know it's a small sample size but that would lead me to lean towards a nib a size too small on the next Lamy I buy.

>>3119581
Lamy don't make Italic Fines - but rather a 1.1mm italic.

Unless Osmiroid delineates their fine nib as also a 1.1 that is not a fair comparison.

>>3119613
It really doesn't matter what they call it,
it's Lamy's 'fine' italic nib and thus it's only natural to compare it to other fine nibs.

>>3103795
Need help here /lit/, is the third pen to the left what I think it is?

Tortoise pilot 100?

>>3119898
Sorry, pelikan.

>>3119898
yeah sorry i can't be much help but yeah judging from the screw top piston filler I'd say its some sort of pelikan

>>3108142
Your handwriting looks like Jack the Ripper's.

>>3120099

>>3109392
some of the inks look pretty cool

>>3120014
Pelikan or one of the many many copies.
They inspired a lot of copycats back in the day.

>>3120567
Looking at it again, it could be .... (A tortoise Pelikan 100N that is). Worth a bit.
Get it if it's cheap!

>>3120577
Yer - might still be a nice pen either way.

>>3119581
But it's not their fine nib. Like I said, they don't have one.
If lamy's narrowest italic is clearly labelled 1.1 (the word "fine" doesn't come into the matter at all) and osimroid's amorphously labelled (I assume) "F" nibbed italic, which is in all likelihood a 0.7 or 0.5 italic, writes finer than that, then it makes sense to use this as a basis to think that lamy is somehow wider than other brands and that you should thus buy one nib smaller to get what you want with them?
To me this is odd reasoning.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

There is no objective standard as to what a Fine, Medium or Broad nib is, much less what an italic "fine/medium/broad" are.

In fact, now that I think about it, Conway Stewart's "Fine italic" is about 0.6/0.7, and their "medium italic" is about about 0.9-1.1 - and thus writes similarly to the lamy 1.1.

Who do you trust? Compared to you osimroid, lamy's smallest italic is a "fine" whereas compared to a conway it is a "medium"?

You cannot trust lettered nib sizes.

There is no international standard as to what a size a fine/med/broad nib is: this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer; brand to brand; country to country and even pen to pen!

This is the only true blanket statement you can make: Japanese (and Chinese) labelled nibs are generally one size smaller when converted to European/American sizes; a Japanese B will write similarly to Western M's than Western B's - a Japanese M will write closer to Western F's and so on.

Hence the importance of trying a new pen/nib size in person if you can (particularly on an expensive purchase - as it might save you return costs for nib exchange).

And even then, the combination of paper and ink can make the line thinner or wider.

Got me a handful of Diamine inks today.
Onyx Black, Blue-Black, and Merlot are pretty great.
The red is ok, and the purple is purple.
The other two blues are pretty meh.

bump

>>3120580
>>3120577
The entire section goes for 20 dollars currently, price will probably go up a little the pens are said to be bust or nibs gone -- so I guess it is a gamble.

UNF

>>3120700
Nice.

>>3124146
Delicious Nakaya Portable Kikyo, Housage Platinum inlay....

One day I'll order a Nakaya.

A Decapod, Kuro-Tamenuri with a softer, rose gold plated nib.

Gotta love that red-out-of- black glow....

>>3122348
So, any update?
Did you get it?
What is it?
(If it's a real Pel tort 100n will you get it restored? Will you sell it?)
UPDATE!

>>3120700
Diamine make some very good inks.
I use their Poppy Red for margin notes.

I'd like to get Red Dragon, Ancient Copper, and a few others.

I agree, that Beau Blue is a bit light (and kinda useless, if you ask me)

>>3126423
No, not completely useless, my main reason for getting Beau Blue was to use it as a Cyan in an ink mixing system.

Waiting for my pen to arrive. So exciting!

Anyone making progress with their handwriting?

>>3127807
what are you waiting for?

should I get a kaweco sport or a modern parker?

>>3129117
Well, the Sport is a very small pocket pen and modern Parker is kinda meh in general.... they'll write well enough, but you could probably find cheaper pens that write just as well.

Depends what you want.

What model Parker are you looking at?

>>3126420
Sorry if I have not answered. The auction will finish the 13th, I will probably buy them all.

If it is a 100n Tort i will restore it.

>>3129929
probably a sonnet

OP here.

I haven't posted in the board at all, but I am very happy it happened. Got my Lamy Safari starter yesterday. Thanks /lit/!

>>3130729
What did you get with it? Converter? Carts?
(what ink?)

To practice handwriting, I suggest gridded graph paper, or (even better) seyes ruled french paper.

It's what the kids in france use to learn how to write; looks more like log paper than standard square grid graph paper.

For you cool cats that have a little more spending money to play with (or want another pen after your Lamy safari or Reform 1745 or whatever), then look no further than the TWSBI Mini. God damn. That's a lot of pen for 50 bucks.

Piston filled, lots of ink etc.
I never got their larger, diamond 540 pen but the Pelikan M800 is too expensive for me and since they're the same size and have the same filler (piston) maybe I'll pick one up as a compromise.

Anyone else have a twsbi?

>>3132269
TWSBI masterrace reporting in.

>>3132286
Which one?

>>3132363
The pen imaged, but full demonstrator.
I bought it like... two hours after it was released.

>>3132470
>full demonstrator

you mean
>full plebian

Half-demonstrator "Classique" poncy masterrace Patrician reporting in.

(I shall fill it with shitty, overpriced Montblanc ink just to spite you)

>>3132483
Oh shit.
Did it come with a toupée? My envy is forcing me to break my pen in half.

>>3132269
I should also add that I tried out a 540 and didn't like it. Not being able to post the cap is kind of a downer for me, but I'd say it's about the same quality as far as writing goes.

>>3132495
No, but it came swathed with it's own little tophat, cloak and silvertopped cane and two complimentary tickets to the opera (thanks Speedy)

I have pretty small hands, so a posted 540 I think would be pretty big for me. I tried a Pelikan m800 in the store and unposted it's about as big (length AND girth) that I can take as far as pens go

>>3132504
Just got through lighting my pen on fire.

A posted 540 is big for any hand, I think, unless you're like Shrek or something. I hear the TWSBI's more compatible to the smaller M205 so you might enjoy it.

As a side note,
Demonstrator
Classic

You can't see it but right now I'm making gang signs.

>>3132512
>I hear the TWSBI's more compatible to the smaller M205 so you might enjoy it.
All comparison pics I've seen place the 540 and vac700 in line with a larger pelikan. I have, well, "had", an m200 once but stupidly lost it.

It's "Classique" - get it right scum.

Don't let that melting clear plastic poison you.
Masterrace Classique's and their Precious Blacque Plastique resin is the material of the gods.I fear I could only attain a piece with only half such a magical substance. The full blaque experience would just be overwhelming for the mind and senses.

Full clear is for full plebs and ghosts. End of story, no discussion twice removed time infinity and beyond.

You can't see it but right now I'm masturbating to the feel of precious blaque plasitque resin and the taste of horribly overpriced colored water.

>full demonstrator
>half demonstrator
it doesn't matter, it's not like anyone is going to be able to take you seriously with either, they're both babby tier.

>>3132523
>they're both babby tier.
>>3132522
>Full clear is for full plebs and ghosts.
One thing I don't really get are those really expensive demonstrators:
Pelikan M1005
Aurora 88 demo
Demo Delta Dolce Vitas
Demo Sailor "King of Pen"
I think there's even a super rare demo MB149 somewhere.

Poor Pilot. I mean, with what TWSBI's churning out who is going to buy their Custom Heritage 92 nowadays?

>>3132525
>Sailor "King of Pen"
I hate how they're called "King of Pen" and not King of PenS.
That really pisses me off, as does the fact that such a pen uses a converter.

>>3132522
Clearly this pen is just 2spooky4u

Yes, I think size-wise TWSBIs are about the size of a Lamy Safari, maybe a little taller if you post them. Definitely not quality-wise, though.

>tfw blaque plastique and opaque inque
>Not allowing your ejaculatory discharge to internally cement into fossil fuels

Captcha related: avoiydn control

>>3132523
>>3132523
I'll have you know that your opinion sucks multiple Jonas Brother dicks, which obviously leads to dick-induced emphysema. Enjoy your job as the new voice artist for Microsoft Sam, faggot.

>>3132525
>who is going to buy their Custom Heritage 92 nowadays?

>tfw I nearly bought on till I saw the Twisbi for less than half the price.

Buying expensive demonstrators?
I SHIGGYWIGGYWOOBAH

>>3132525
>>3132561
I don't know... the Custom 823's a mighty fine pen. They're not full clear "full plebghoast" or whatever the fuck's going on in this thread, but rather tinted brown or dark grey (almost black).

>>3132541
Suque my deeque you silly freaque; Blaque Plastique C'est Magnifique!

>>3132578
>dat file name

>>3132549
>Jonas Brother
>Microsoft Sam
>emphysema
I'm afraid I'm having trouble understanding your pleb dialect.
I don't know what any of those things are.

>>3132589
Translation:
>2012
>Full/half demonstrator
>babby tier
>Le shiggy Donatello
My sides are in space!!!!! XD

>>3132578
>give her the chode

>>3132525
>dat aurora 88
>dat price

>>3133360
Aurora's actually a pretty decent company.
In fact, out of all manufacturer's lately, they've actually *reduced* their prices.
But yeah, I personally wouldn't pay that much for a demonstrator.

Though Pelikan (and other, dead vintage brands that shall not be named) is my favourite ("Mein Liebchen"), I am intrigued by Aurora.

What separates them from so many other pen makers today is that not only are they still controlled by the original family that kicked things off early last century, but they also make everything in-house.
Nibs and all.

Sheesh, even Pelikan went through a stage where they outsourced to PeterBock for nibs (though thankfully it's back to homedone now).

Modern models of interest:
Optima in Auroloide (I have my eye on the blue/chrome one http://nibs.com/AuroraOptimaAuroloideBlueChrome.htm))

And the 88, but not the demonstrator.
(http://nibs.com/Aurora88.html))

I've had my eye on them for a while, so when a vintage 88 came up for a very good price, I snapped it up.

The most successful Italian pen ever, the original 88 was. (flexy nibbed, too).

Yes, yes another one of many Parker 51 knockoff's but, IMO, it far surpasses the Parker - at least on paper (piston filler > Parker's aerometric/vacumatic). I'll see how it goes when I have it in hand.

>>3132789
>/lit/
>not knowing how to spell choad

What the fuck man

>>3135284
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/choad?s=t
>yfw

>>3135242
you need to take a picture of your collection and post that shit.

>>3135284
>>3135286

Quit scratching your chode.
You wimp! Get out and take your chode with you!
You stupid chode!
A mountain bike team called the “Choad Chafers” won the championship.

anyone willing to show their handwriting?

>>3114177
>>3114202
You know what? I think it really might be a sewing needle thing.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1407609.pdf

That perfectly matches his pictures.

>>3136917
lol Since I spend most of my play-money on fountain pens and other frivolities, photography has to take a back seat.

Still, I've got a crappy outdated pointandshoot pos that'll do for some quick and dirties.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=--=-=-=-
How we post our "Daily Carry's/Beaters"?

>>3136994
I'll give it a go. Gimme a few. All I've got on me right now is my edc mega-trusty Parker Vector. Goddamn thing is a fountain pen cockroach.

>>3141561
>Parker Vector
I tend to shy away from parker, but there is no denying that that little tube of metal is one hardy sonofabitch.

>>3141561
aaaand here we go.

>>3141618

>dat star-A signature
>tfw you wish one of your names started with an A so you could start doing that.

i'm jelly is fuck.

>>3141623
lmao. never even thought of it before I got some star tattoos.

>tfw you used to start it with an anarchy symbol in grade school.

Ah, how times have changed.

>>3132076

It came with a converter, and I got Monteverde Black Ink with it on the teller's recommendation (mainly because it was popular and more ink for less $ by comparison to others). Being reluctant to sign up for paypal at the moment, I ended up going on a bit of a scavenger hunt for where to buy fountain pens. Was eventually pointed to this speciality art shop where they had a surprisingly large selection.

I also got a pack of cartridges just in case I need ink quickly. Am yet to run out of the complimentary one included with the pen, after that will start using the ink converter.

I ended up buying thicker paper also, because the ink was showing through the other side of the cheaper kind I had.

I know the kind of paper you mean. I'll keep that in mind, thanks. It's funny, being born and for a while growing up in Eastern Europe, I was actually required to use fountain pens in schools -- everything else was strictly prohibited. I did some asking around, and from what I gather almost nobody my age (early twenties) who grew up in the West used them.

I know this could simply be a case of post-purchase glee, but I feel like I enjoy the mechanical act of writing so much more now.

>>3141707
protip: you can use a blunt tip syringe to refill cartridges with bottled ink

>>3141707
>I know this could simply be a case of post-purchase glee, but I feel like I enjoy the mechanical act of writing so much more now.

It really is a bit of both:
I delight in receiving packages of goodies as much as I love looking at sparkly goodies through a glass case at a store. Big kid a candy store (his type of candy).

But the act writing is made more enjoyable with a fountain pen.

Is it necessary? By no means. A cheapo ballpoint that you find rolling around on the auditorium floor will do. It will get the job done, and perhaps more efficiently and with less potential complications.

Most people type things now, after all.

When you get that exact magic combination of pen, nib type, paper type and ink type together in a harmonious union - putting ideas on a page is made all that more fun.

Not necessarily a necessary tool, not anymore (unless perhaps if you have arthritis or something - but then again, there's voice activated word processing now, isn't there?)

It's an enhancer, which by no means has to be luxurious or costly.

I'm still having trouble locating a good tutorial on flexwriting. I'm chomping at the bit to order a Noodler's Ahab in lapis inferno when I can scrape up the extra cash. I'd flex like it like zyzz. Erryday

I'm still having trouble locating a good tutorial on flexwriting. I'm chomping at the bit to order a Noodler's Ahab in lapis inferno when I can scrape up the extra cash. I'd flex like it ZYZZ. Erryday.

>>3141707
what kind of paper did you get?

>>3141928
There's no such thing as "flex writing" - it's just any calligraphy script; either spencerian or copperplate will do. Just get one already and experiment. Ahabs, and those nooodler's flex's in general, aren't good for real calligraphic writing anyway as, among other things, the amount of pressure required to flex those nibs is way too much for those purposes.

Get a dip nib if you want "real flex". Noodler's flex is just for a bit of fun, a bit of line variation to spice up an otherwise boring handwriting.

>>3142875
>the amount of pressure required to flex those nibs is way too much for those purposes.
This holds true for non-calligraphic purposes too. It will tire your your hand to, for example, write a letter with every single written character flexed, not to mention take a really long time.
Noodler's flex is for playing around with, or for just using as normal pens most of the time and just like flexing a capital letter at the beginning of a paragraph here and there.
A good intro to flexy nibs, but constant line variation is much more effortlessly achieved with an italic type nib.

Now that really is "cheating".

so much fucking want