/lit/ - Literature

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

http://www.iep.utm.edu/soc-cont/

>>3096475
social contract theory is rather stupid if you ask me, what if I don't want to live with society at all, are the only morals that bind me the one in society?

>>3096534
You're getting there...

>>3096546
You're trying to say that morals doesn't exist or that they aren't true. I get it.

>>3096534
You're right, there is no universal code of ethics that exists independent of humanity. But the rules we have set up are (supposed to be) for the benefit of our species as a collective. If you don't like them then feel free to fuck off, but don't come running back for help or legal justice when another forest dweller sodomizes you for three straight weeks.

>>3096549
Yes. So become a Nietzschean.

>>3096534
>what if I don't want to live with society at all


then leave that society.

> are the only morals that bind me the one in society?

leave the society, otherwise you have to deal with it's power-structures.

If you have enough resources, power, money, then the rules don't really apply to you like they do to poor people. Rich privilege

>>3096534
You can go off the grid and live in a cabin in the woods and die young, or on the streets living off societies garbage, go ahead. Just don't cramp our lives and break our laws.

Naturally we lived in families and packs and roamed around the land, Roma/Gypsies still do, though less and less these days, and these packs had to work together for the betterment and solidarity of their group. Social cliques are the nature of things. A social "contract" is simply the family bond write large.

>>3096556
>Ayn Rand much?

Then they aren't morals, they are a necessity -- boring.

>>3096470

What do "rights" even mean? Supposedly we have property rights, but that doesn't mean your bike won't get stolen. Maybe your country says you have a right to health care, but if the doctors aren't there, that doesn't mean anything.

Rights are just reformulations of responsibilities. You have a responsibility not to steal, and others have a responsibility not to steal from you. Then there is a government, and their responsibility is to hold accountable those who shirk their responsibilities. "Rights" are meaningless, but collective responsibilities are not.

>>3096561
Except that groups of blacks and hispanics have nothing in common with me or my culture; they are not my family.

Social contract might work in a society that is homogenous, coming from the same ancestors and sharing the same culture. It just doesn't work in the multicultural west. Instead we have group politics and people fighting for dominance. Only white people are foolish enough to pretend that ethics exist here.

>mfw the brilliance of the american constitution lies not in the first ammendment but in the second

Since they put like this: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

First sentence: We hold these truths
Last sentence: From the consent of the governed

It's merely from their perspective, so they gave the second ammendement to the people in order to rebel if they didn't consent with that "relative truth" , the entire constitution rests upon that fact, that there can't be proven any natural rights if you believe it to be so, and they give you the power to shut US down if you choose.

I now realize why the second ammendment has to stay.

>>3096581
So now we flash forward to the dysfunctional family.
You're an idiot.

>>3096578
Property rights are ridiculous, how can anyone claim anything to be 'theirs'? That doesn't even make sense, it is neither a quality of the thing nor a reasonable relation between two things

>>3096602
You don't seem to get the second amendment, do you?

Too bad we don't follow the first anyway.

>>3096611
Niggers aren't part of my family.

All sentient beings have a natural right to live. Sentience being the ability to have a subjective experience, rather than living off of instinct. Just stop being a bitch basically. Or go kill some people, depriving them of their natural right to live, and see how that blows over.

>>3096619
You can choose your friends, not your family. Nigger.

>>3096621
What gives beings the 'right'?
What is a 'right'?

Analytics assume these things exist but ignore ontology.

>>3096623
Niggers aren't part of it anyway.

And we aren't all africans.

>>3096581
>Instead we have group politics and people fighting for dominance.
This. So much this.
>>3096611
Maher and Dawkins. No matter who you are, they are the most grating idiots on the planet.

Social contract assumes the you live in a country with shared values and culture.

In a country without those social contract makese no sense.

>>3096628
Look at suicide. That is an ability that is unique to humans, as we will commit suicide not because we made a mistake and fell off a cliff, but because we are depressed and want out of life. Other animals cannot do this. They have no concept of the idea of life itself, rather, they just do what they need to to continue their species evolution until they reach perhaps the level that we have reached. Personally, I think that the ability to derive a subjective experience from life, and the ability to say, feel and think that we have a right to what nature has given us guarantees us that right. Maybe I'm wrong, but I spend a lot of time thinking about this too, and that is where it got me.

>>3096630
And global warming isn't happening, god watches you masturbate, and there is a Santa Clause.

>>3096561
>Roma/Gypsies still do, though less and less these days, and these packs had to work together for the betterment and solidarity of their group.
Gypsies are the scum of Europe. The don't work for the betterment of anyone. They fuck up entire communities with constant muggings, squatting, extortion, murders, and every thing imaginable and when the governments finally evict them after they become so utterly impossible to live with they pack up and move somewhere else.

>dat feel when I have the right to filter out that butterflyshit insane guy.

Good bye

>>3096602
>implying we could revolt in america if we wanted to

>>3096653
Did you ever consider that people that are racists aren't conservative and hate people for legitimate reasons. Like constant crime and horrible behavior? Didn't you say social cliques are the natural order of things?

>>3096654
They stick close and work for THEIR benefit. They are like the Huns but less threatening. We were all once like them until someone invented the fence and we decided to settle.

>>3096611
>mesopotamia
>africa

>>3096664
YOU couldn't, since one person fighting for a cause that nobody agrees with wouldn't work worth shit, but if an extremely large group of armed people decided to stage a coup on Washington, they would win, and the constitution would be backing them.

>>3096653
>Hurrr one race the human race, we all bleed red!

Pigs bleed red too.

>>3096581
Actually. Genetics show you are more closely related to people OUTSIDE your so called "race" than inside. And typically americans all share the same culture. Subcultures mean nothing.

>>3096664
Anytime pre-1910 there was a possibility

>>3096470
Just because there are no natural rights (I don't know what "natural is supposed to mean), does not mean there are not reasonable rights that should be enforced by a state (grant for the conversation that we are willing to implement a ruling state). Natural rights seem to be those moral intuitions that we think are undeniable. Whether our intuitions are correct is a completely different topic.

>>3096665
Did I stutter?

>>3096665
Not really. Racism bis at the end of the day based on irrationality and a splash of pseudoscience
>>3096677
Mainstream science disagrees.

>>3096678
Are you from America?

>>3096678
We aren't talking about genetics.

We are talking about a race in the sense of culture. The German race, even though it might have some genetic nearness to slavs is still distinct because in its essence it is German and not something else.

>>3096678
>Actually. Genetics show you are more closely related to people OUTSIDE your so called "race" than inside. And typically americans all share the same culture. Subcultures mean nothing.

Guns, Germs and Steel much. I suggest you take your homeschool geneticism to /pol/ and get schooled. Even Richard Dawkins aknowledge white and black races.

>>3096689
You saying that pigs don't bleed red?

I seem to have missed that bit about science that proved marxist egalitarian theories.

>>3096689
>not taking all points of view into consideration
Then you've already failed at arguing.

>>3096677
Go back to /pol/

>>3096673
Go back to school

>>3096681
So the so-called "2nd Amendment remedy" is now worthless. New strategy time folks.

>>3096678
>typically americans all share the same culture
That's a load of horse shit. Surburban culture is nothing like being in L.A. That's so ludicrous I can't even believe you said that. You must be underage.

>>3096706
Thanks for ruining this thread jack-ass.

>>3096706
Egalitarianism is fucking retarded, hippie.

>>3096698
>Guns, Germs and Steel much
The book doesn't deny genetic differences among races.
>I suggest you take your homeschool geneticism to /pol/ and get schooled
Recommending /pol/ to anyone sort of renders any argument you would otherwise have invalid

>>3096695
Eeeeyup!
>>3096696
German culture is made of of many subcultures and is constantly changing. Modern german "culture" is nothing like it was 1000, even 100 years ago.
>>3096698
>Guns, germs, and steel.
>Not garbage
Actually I frequent /pol/ and my threads typically end with stormfag namecalling and rage against my facts. Nice appeal to authority at the end there.

Isn't the idea of natural rights kind of a moot point? The reason why we have rights in the first place is out of our ability to make pro-social decisions. Shouldn't that be reason enough? Idgi

>>3096699
>Reading comprehension

Modern genetics disproves racist BS. I assume your IQ is room temperature.

>>3096689
>Racism bis at the end of the day based on irrationality and a splash of pseudoscience
You've never lived with gentlemen of color have you?
>>3096701
This as well.

>>3096701
I bet you "consider" creation "science" as well
.>>3096708
So you're saying most americans do not have a common history, way of life, and beliefs?>>3096711
You seem a bit angry.

>>3096561
>You can go off the grid and live in a cabin in the woods
You know that isn't legal in some countries?

>>3096714
>your facts
You have yet to present them. But first I want to get it clear.

1. Do you deny that there are races?
2. Do accept that there are races but deny that there are differences between them?
3. Are you a retard that believe everything is a social construct?

>>3096717
Obviously racist points of view conflict with science, but not cultural racism. For example, I don't hate black people, but I sure do hate hip hop culture, and I don't hate white people, but I sure do hate white supremacists.

>>3096714
Then why would you believe that most Americans share the same culture? That's just insane.

>>3096721
Ah. So personal anecdotes should determine one's view of people? Good to know. Please, present me with an unfalsifiable story you just cooked up. I do not expect you to believe me since I cannot prove what I say. But yes, I have known people of "color" considering I grew up in Botswana.

>>3096728
It ain't in America. Hell, in Oregon they ruled it was illegal to collect rain. Fucking rain.

>>3096742
That kind of sucks.

But we have a lot of bullshit here in the Netherlands too.

>>3096729
Among humans, yes.
Considering there are not so called "races" then no.
No. Everything is not. But many things are such as religions. good and evil, races, etc.

>>3096717
Modern genetics doesn't disprove racist BS, because genetics doesn't take a stand in racial issues, they present fact such as "Populations absent of neanderthal interbreeding have a IQ average lower than population that have the Neanderthal genome sequence present in their bodies".

>>3096742
I am pretty sure it is completely legal to live completely off the grid in America. The government can't do anything to stop you from doing it.

>>3096755
Yep, try to stop paying your taxes for a while and see what happens.

>>3096725
>common history, way of life, and beliefs?
History yes. Way of life and beliefs? Fuck no and that's the point. Do you honestly disagree with that?
>I bet you "consider" creation "science" as well
Are you fucking retarded? If you dismiss shit because you don't agree with it than you're no different from a creationist.

ITT: >my teacher told me that we are all equally smart and equally beautiful in ninth grade

>>3096735
Oh. Cultural racism seems understandable. If I could force every immigrant to america to adopt the culture I would.

>>3096765
WHAT? BUT "RACISM" SUPPORTED BY HARD EVIDENCE DOES NOT.

Shit, I thought I had seen it all on /lit/

>>3096759
>Individualism
>Outspokenness
>Descent from immigrants
>The belief that working hard brings success

>>3096647
I'm pretty animals "die of sadness" which is just another way to say suicide

>>3096776
>>The belief that working hard brings success
>muh slavery

>>3096776
All those are protestant and/or anglo-saxon values

>>3096758
Didn't say anything about taxes. You have to pay taxes if you are a citizen. You can, however, build a cabin in the woods if you own the land, and not pay any power or utility bills and do everything yourself. Live by candle light or solar power, have a well, bathe in a stream. It just wouldn't be very comfortable.

>>3096764
>Mainstream science and philosophy are wrong because sketchy sources AKA badly made ms paints said so

>>3096755
Not true and that's the scary part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yw3RiMdS7sE

>>3096470

>does not

stopped read there.

>>3096780
And? Hard work brings success is a value most americans adhere to
>>3096783
And? Cultures spread and are shared by peoples. One cannot touch withoud BEING touched.Japanese culture owes shitloads to indian, western, and chinese culture.

>>3096785
Mainstream science is wrong all the time dipshit, because new facts have come to light brought on by the mapping of the human genome.

You are literally arguing like someone denying enviromental changes in the global climate

>>3096776
>>Individualism
>>Outspokenness
>>Descent from immigrants
>>The belief that working hard brings success
Haha. Those are talking points and nothing more. You think Euro countries don't have that shit. Certain Scandi countries don't value individualism, that I'll grant you, but these values have all been exported through America's tremendous cultural influence. I'm talking about the values that people actually live, like not being a loudmouth jackass to your neighbor and not laughing and shouting "WORLDSTAR" whenever people get attacked.

>>3096803
Well. I think I'll believe what mainstream scientists say thank you very much. I trust einstein, plank, and bohr over some random crank any day.

>>3096806
einstein and bohr were physicists, what the fuck would they know about race?

>>3096796
It makes grammatical sense. On first glance it looks like it should be:
-Natural rights do not exist.

But he's using 'natural rights' as a concept

-[The theory of] "Natural Rights" does not exist.

>>3096804
Do you have any statistics or peer reviewed research to back that up?

>>3096812
>Reading comprehension
>Learn it

>>3096817
I think you should learn how to think and make sense.

Here you go, here is a nobel prize winning geneticist - mainstream enough for you?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-
than-westerners-394898.html

>>3096795
I don't think that is the same as having a cabin in the woods and quietly living off the land.

>>3096814

No, it makes no sense because OP did use quote marks.

>>3096841
OP here, you are a fucking idiot.

>>3096826
>>3096826
OK. Since your reading comprehension fails to let you know what reading comprehension even means. I'll take this slowly. I said that I will take the word of mainstream scientists over unkniwn cranks any day. Your reading comprehension interpereted my examples as a statement about race and not science in general. I apologize for not being more clear. I forgot a typical racist has a room temperature IQ.

>>3096816
No one in this entire thread has peer reviewed proof. We are all talking out our ass, that's why I never have these type of discussions in the real world because I know that I am in fact just throwing out my opinions. However, I'll bite. I don't need stats. Every American you've ever met values those four things. Haven't you met some crazy anarchists? Weird socialists. Card carrying communists? I have, and I can tell you they did not share those values except perhaps outspokenness. Those "values" listed really aren't anything other than manufactured terms used for to convince people that there is some uniquely American existence which there isn't (besides that burst of national pride whenever our government does something important a la Mars or Osama) The values I'm talking about and the values that actually exist are those that guide our actions. These are different among different people and they are what drives city blacks to punch out bus drivers for fun.

>>3096847
And btw your link is broken.

>>3096845

awww, OP made a mistake.

The problem with the OP, and most people on /lit/ (and people in general) is that they assume that all knowledge can come from the self.

That if we just think about a problem long enough with enough concentration, we'll receive insight and understanding and be able to resolve the problem.

It doesn't work that way

>>3096848
Are you on drugs? Copy the whole link, dummy. I read the article. Pretty interesting, I must say. The guy is also not some random crank.

Happy birthday OP. 18 is a big number!

>>3096856
From what knowledge do you base this fact?

>>3096851
Well then. You're entitled to your unscientific opinions. I'm just glad you admitted it. Although I DO find it somewhat odd that you seem to only have contact with "black" people through viral videos. I guess
>>3096861
Still won't open for me.

>>3096826
>Watson and Crick in charge of being relevant
>Watson in charge of not being a crazy old man

>In 1997, he told a British newspaper that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual. He later insisted he was talking about a "hypothetical" choice which could never be applied. He has also suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, positing the theory that black people have higher libidos, and argued in favour of genetic screening and engineering on the basis that "stupidity" could one day be cured. He has claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: "People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would great."
I chuckl'd at the end where the minority rights group is wondering if they can sue him for saying something mean, but I think that's more because it's the UK than anything else.

OP should read some Cicero on humanitas or other Latin writers on the subject so as not to be such a pleb
lrn2pietas

>>3096882
>mfw scientists even people such as the ones you are quoting have been harassed through all of history for being crazy when claiming something as stupid such as "the earth being round"

>>3096870
From knowledge outside of the self.
External phenomena.
The same problems have been debated without conclusions for 1000's of years by allegedly the greatest of minds with no final conclusion.

But yes, I also mean experimentation, which is certainly outside of the self.

I am mostly addressing OP's
>After some soul searching I have found this to be true

>inb4 "you can't prove anything exists outside of the self"

Philosophy in general is rather useless to me anyway though. Much in the same way I find literary criticism to be useless.

>>3096856
That's a strange assertion, especially considering that introspection generally works well when thinking about problems like this. You might not find answers, but it can make you more content and appreciative of your life.

>>3096894
More like the earth not being the center of the universe. The idea of the earth being round has been around since classical antiquity.

>>3096890
>>3096890
I guess you really don't know that much about philosophy then.

>>3096881
>Still won't open for me.
Either you are a troll or an idiot.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are an idiot.

That person's link isn't broken. You have to copy the WHOLE THING, not just the first line, since it goes onto two lines.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Fury+at+DNA+pioneer%27s+theory

It's the top link on that search. It should be on one line so you can manage, Url shorteners have problems on 4chan or I would.

>>3096901
Both have been around since antiquity.

>>3096912
Yeah, but the earth being round was proven in the 3rd century BC, while the heliocentric model was not mathematically proven until the 16th century AD.

>>3096890
Mathematics is 100% a priori

bitch

>>3096895
> You might not find answers, but it can make you more content and appreciative of your life.
No answers and self-delusion?
Sounds wonderful!

>>3096900
Am I or was I a philosophy major?
No, I am/was not.

>>3096748
Race exists though. Just not on a genetic level. I don't know what you people actually expected 'race' to be when you looked into genes, as if niggers were some other species and would be totally different.

But you see, there are these 'people' we call 'black' and look a certain way. They have certain characteristics. That's what a race is. Just because we share genetic characteristics changes nothing.

>>3096470
>Racial discussion / STEM vs. Lib Arts / Free will / Gun rights / What is intelligence

Holy fuck OP hit the mother load right here.

>>3096894
So all the creation "scientists" are right. But there's a conspiracy against them. Got it. Watson and Crick are despised because they never back up anything with proper facts.

>>3096929
>mother load
not
>mother lode

Please learn to differentiate between homophones. Thank you.

>>3096921
Or you can just be a cold nihilist and make everyone hate you.

>>3096938
But they have?

>>3096881
>You're entitled to your unscientific opinions
As are you since I haven't seen anything scientific coming from you.
>"black" people through viral videos
That was the best example of a chimp out on hand. How can you say that all Americans share similar values? How about you actually respond to my post.

>>3096946
Now, now, that's a false dichotomy.
I assure you that just because I don't agree with you, that doesn't make a nihilist.

>>3096964
Well you seem to deny the existence of subjective experiences because you are denying yourself of the existence of your self, but allowing the existence of everything else as if you are made up of everything except you.

>>3096903
>>3096826
There were literally 0 facts or statistics or studies in that article. You've wasted my time.
>>3096928
Don't argue with me. Argue with these guys.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19226639

http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html

http://www.anthro.psu.edu/weiss_lab/CQ21_RacingAround.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inYehUJYmsg&feature=player_embedded

http://www.thesubversivearchaeologist.com/2011/10/evolutionary-biology-of-race-are-there.html

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20983/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.v139:1/issuetoc

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2007.00164.x/abstract

http://www.understandingrace.org/humvar/spectrum.html

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/minorities.shtml

http://newsreel.org/guides/race/whatdiff.htm

You got some reading to do bud

>>3096982
No, I deny that ALL knowledge and ALL answers come from that the self. I deny that ONLY the self exists.

Slight difference.

>>3097008
What about mathematics or pure logic

>>3096999
>mfw you really doesn't seem to grip the difference between the scientific word race and population and the mainstream meaning of race, also have you even read some of your own links

>>3097008
Well I think that's what everyone else does. I mean, you can't just rely on yourself for knowledge otherwise you'll shoot yourself in the head when you tell yourself that shooting yourself in the head won't kill you. I just think you don't give enough credit to your self, since you don't seem to think about or give credit to its capacity to think about itself very much.

>>3096999
>anthropology
no thanks

>>3096470

"Natural rights does not exist"

Wow

>>3097024
Sorry that your opinions aren't based on science apparently. Yes, I have read all my links word for word. I'm sorry that it's tl;dr for you.
>>3097032
>F-FUCK YOU AND YOUR FACTS!!!

>>3097048
>based on science
This is problem of atheists and those influenced by secular ideals.

The focus on science. That science is above everything. Science is your religion, its methods your scripture. You put your full faith and trust in it. But what is it in the end? Science is people.

1 Corinthians 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psalm 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

I hope I have shown you the error of your ways.

>>3097065
Science is the only truth. There is nothing except the scientific. End of story.

>>3097065
>Quoting scripture.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." -Ephesians 6:5

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29

"Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." - Exodus 13:2

"I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken." -Ezekiel 21:33-37

"A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death." -Leviticus 21:9

>>3097077
Is that an axiom?

What about all the science that has produced incorrect predictions?

>>3097077
>scientism
>trolls trolling trolls

>>3097080
>Old Testament

>>3097077
Seconding this. Philosophy is total bullshit. Science is the ultimate.

>>3097040

i know right

>>3097080
Why would you quote the Old Testament ever?

>>3097077
>>3097084
This.

Philosophers can't even prove they exist. Science confirmed for objective truth.

>>3097081
It was merely science done a bit wrong. Doesn't change the perfection of the scientific method. There is no way to know or be certain of anything without science.

>>3097090
How is it that you came to know that science is a method of acquiring knowledge?

>>3097088
>Why would you quote the Old Testament ever?
Because I am a Jehovahs Witness. We reject the new testament, and believe 100% in the OT.

>>3097091
Analysing empirical data led to that conclusion.

>>3097090
>>3097089
Oh lol.

>>3097092
Have you killed your neighbor yet for not observing the sabbath? Do you accept that Jesus was a liar and gods real name is Yahweh?

>>3097096
Elaborate.
>>3097097
Stay mad philosofag

>>3097090
>perfection of the scientific method

Kuhn, Feyerabend, Lakatos.

>>3097096
>[Empirical fallacy]
>>3097090
>perfection
>>3097096
>[Empirical fallacy]
>>3097090
>perfection

And goodnight.

>>3097092
So basically you don't believe in Jesus. The Old Testament is bullshit for Christian hatemongers who use it to say things that Jesus never said anything about are evil, like bullshit about homosexuality.

>>3097096
What sort of "analysis"? It can't have been scientific, yet you claim that only science can produce truth, so how can you trust the validity of this process?

>>3097111
Because science gives tangible results
>>3097109
Science is testble and repeatable

>>3097103
>Elaborate.
We use empirical data to analyse reality, Bayesian probability to find the most likely scenario, reject that which fails testing, and we repeated this until we found first cause. Now that we know God didn't create the universe, we can keep on studying the small pockets of reality we haven't fully grasped (Mesons, bosons etc) until we can completely eliminate the possibility that there is anything external to observable reality having an effect on what we can perceive.

Colors don't exist but that doesn't mean you can't see them.

Natural rights don't exist but that doesn't mean we can't have them.

>>3097123
>colors don't exist
most people would disagree with you
>>3097118
I don't see how either of those >> actually relates to the quoted post

>>3097103
What? I am fully aware of the validity of science within the boundaries of the external universe. Doesn't really affect me though.

>>3097127
Color is in the spectrum of light, not in the object.

Different surfaces will refract different wavelengths of light giving them the illusion of color.

>>3097119
>>3097134
So you admit the superiority of science over all other means of aquiring knowledge?

>>3097144
It's trivially easy to imagine a possible world in which it isn't (e.g. any skeptical scenario) which means that its "superiority" if it exists is not a priori

>>3097153
Elaborate

>>3097118
>Science is testble [sic] and repeatable

Kuhn, Feyerabend, Lakatos.

Goodnight argumentum ad nauseum.

Science might still be the best empirical method of forming contingent social knowledge regarding empirical reality—but that doesn't make science into the practice that you claim it is; nor does it mean that science can produce non-contingent knowledge.

>>3097144
Not one bit. Science and philosophy are two sides of the same coin, and are equal in importance.

>>3097119
>and we repeated this until we found first cause

I'm sorry, could you repeat your metaphysics, because you just exited from science when you claimed to have faith in God in your experimental data, as you did when you said, "we found first cause." You have searched to the limits of sense-data's explanations, and this is admirable, but it isn't a first cause. A first cause is a metaphysical proposition and as you'd know from reading Karl Popper is unfalsifiable and _NOT PART OF SCIENCE_.

>>3097158
E.g. the external world as we have come to know it by the scientific method, such as e.g. the location of planets, the existence of physical objects, etc is actually the result of electrochemical induction of certain neural impulses in our brains. So "scientifically proven" facts are actually false. A priori truths like conditionals or mathematics are still true, though.

>>3097170
>A priori truths like conditionals or mathematics are still true, though.
Up to the incompleteness limit. They can't form a totalising critique safe from human frailty.

>>3097170
You mean because we are the result of neurological activity, that invalidates our knowledge?

>>3097168
>First cause
Yeah, we be droppin science on ur ass now, bitches.

And no. We didn't rely on the existence of a God in the first place. We had already ruled it out after being given it by you theolo-philosophers, so had to prove our origin to shut you up.

>>3097199
No, what I meant was "It's trivially easy to imagine a possible world in which it isn't (e.g. any skeptical scenario) which means that [the scientific method's] "superiority" if it exists is not a priori"

Which is what I said

>>3097194

I don't think anyone's going to claim that a priori truths can fully account for knowledge

I just have a question for all of the people who rather blindly follow science here. Is your desire to explore outwards somehow more valid or better than another person's desire to explore inwards?

>>3097205
If you are genuinely discussion a cause prior to sense-apprehension, which a first cause must be, you have exited science for metaphysics.

It is this simple.

>>3097210
>I don't think anyone's going to claim that a priori truths can fully account for knowledge
But a full account of knowledge is the demand implicit in the enlightenment project. There's one retarded math-head on /lit/ who doesn't get that knowledge, to be knowledge in the sense of the perfectibility of mankind and thus of use to philosophy in informing empirical disciplines, must be total.

Though negative results are also valued.

Science only evades the proof of existence question by axiomatically excluding solipsism.

>>3097224
discussion / discussing.

>>3097234
History only evades the proof of existence question by methodologically excluding solipsism.

Literary criticism fucked the pooch by admitting the issue of the proof of existence as part of their disciplinary domain.

Contingent empirical knowledge systems gonna continge.

>>3097243
If somebody shows up in this thread and argues that history is methodologically superior to philosophy, then ok.

>>3097261
I'll argue that historiography is methodologically superior to continental philosophy due to the more highly developed systems of analysing contingent plural causation in diachronic social systems present in historiography. In comparison, continental philosophy is monotonic in its analysis of society, obstructionist in its selection of evidence, claims do not follow the evidence, evidence is not cited in detail, the reading base considered evidence is horrifically narrow compared to historiography's demands regarding depth and breadth of primary sources, the claims are excessive and unlimited in continental philosophy compared to the claims made by historiography which are situated, contextualised and contingent.

So yeah, I'm willing to make that argument.

Less so regarding metaphysical continental philosophy, and not at all regarding the analyticals.

If you want to be a sociologist be a sociologist.
If you want to be a historian be a historian.

>>3097280
I knew I was walking right into that as soon as I said it. Science doesn't need metaphysics to be practical or consistent and philosophy doesn't need to be practical to be useful. I don't have any interest in "proving science wrong" because it doesn't exclude solipsism, it's just a different problem set.

>>3097300
The point I was making with historiography, is that a disciplinary system of contingent knowledge that _knows the limits of its capacity to claim the production of knowledge_ can safely ignore solipsism.

Science can safely ignore solipsism.
History can safely ignore solipsism.

Solipsism is the job of the philosopher.

Lit Crit fucked up by taking on someone else's job, and doing it badly.

I've been consistently pointing to Kuhn, Feyerabend, Lakatos to note the construction of science as a historical and sociological process—such a process, such a _contingent knowledge system_ is safe from solipsism as long as it doesn't declare that it produces absolute or total knowledge.

>>3097305
I know, I'm agreeing with you. I was disagreeing with another person in the thread that was basically ignoring what you've said.

That said, I have interacted with enough _scientists_ that don't understand this. I guess because fish don't think about the water they're swimming in.

I don't believe that "natural rights" exist in the same way that I don't think that morality is inherent.

I still believe that freedom of the press SHOULD be a right, that free speech SHOULD be a right, and so on. Just because I take the nihilist approach to morality doesn't mean that I'm an immoral person; I just think that morality is defined by an individual and by factors like socialization.

>>3097309
A great many scientists are resistant to the idea that they themselves possess an ideology. This is despite Popper, Kuhn, Feyerabend, Lakatos being staples of undergraduate science education in the civilised countries.

Go figure—time to got read sociologies of technoscience etc.

OP, do you think you can do a million different things with your hands? Serious question.

>>Utilitarianism
>>Empathy

Babbys first moral dielmma

Oh you kids

ITT: logical positivism.

what the fuck is with you people? does something have to be completely material for it to exist?

you're even worse than /sci/ fuck you ultra new atheists

>>3096749
>implying that's what modern genetics is

>>3097577
You appear to be suggesting a dualist conception of reality where the metaphysical is directly apprehensible via sense data.

>>3097378
>Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
>Oh you kids
>kids

You would like them to be all kids, wouldn't you?
How fitting you use Michael Jackson.
I assume he's your role model in all ways.

>>3096470
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Stirner
Enjoy.

>>3096470

good night /lit going to bed now

>>3097646
That wasn't me. It was probably you.

Not a pedophile and not bi

>>3097577
So-called rights of mankind and all the laws ever written may all be immaterial and infinitely malleable fantasies, but they are what makes things work, to the extent they do. I support them as long as they serve the majority well.

>>3097654
max stirner's an idiot lol