/lit/ - Literature

Sailor Moon.

Currently running or just better period?

Dying Earth

LOTR, Gormenghast, Dark Tower, can't remember more but the list can go on and on and on

Tekken

Atlas Shrugged

>>3064016
True.

>>3064023
>Dark Tower

heh, good one. 4/10

There aren't many, that much is true.

>>3064023
>>3064021
neither LotR nor Dying Earth is really a series - LotR is a novel in 6 parts, Dying Earth is a setting.

That's where OP gets you - most really good fantasy isn't written as part of a series.

The First Law Trilogy (Abercrombie has infinitely better fight scenes)
Gentlemen Bastard (Lynch did Braavos and sneaky-Arya shit better)

>>3064229
Maybe not, but surely there are many that are equally as bad.

>>3064242

>gives a shit about how fight scenes are written

Opinion disqualified.

>>3064253
Glokta is a far better Tyrion. The politics and intrigue in his chapters are much more captivating than Martin's.
Jezal is a better Jamie.
And he has better prose. Okay, that's not saying much, though.

>>3064247
>asoiaf
>bad

Sure is /lit/ in here.

>>3064242
They're the things that make them better for you? Who gives a shit about 'fight scenes'.

>>3064259
it's certainly more entertaining, but not as good, i don't think - not as much character depth, isn't as deeply involved in a critique of the genre as ASOIAF is, and most importantly, absolutely could not have been written without ASOIAF paving the way. First Law is ASOIAF's follower. Maybe more fun, but not better.

>>3064265
>Game of Thrones
>good
pick one

>inb4 "he's a fantastic storyteller"
>inb4 "it's character driven"

you neckbeards are deluded as fuck

>>3064236
Are you distinguishing between a series and "novel in however many parts" by some criteria other than authorial intention? Because if not, ASOIAF is a "novel in seven parts" rather than a series, just like LOTR.

Meh I like The Wheel of Time a lot.

Dying Earth too

>>3064277
I'm using whatever criteria people use to call In Search of Lost Time a "novel in seven volumes." If you want to call ASOIAF the same, that's fine with me. I think there are much more profound inner divisions within ASOIAF than there are within LotR but w/e.

someone should rewrite In Search Of Lost Time except about cats and call it "a la recherche du temps purrrr-du"

>>3064280
Er Not dying earth sorry, I meant The Book of the New Sun

>>3064276

Have you read ASoIaF? Have you even read AGoT?

Wizard of Earthsea
The lord of the rings
Abhorsen
Keys to the Kingdom
The dark is rising
Anything by Neil Gaiman
King Killer Chronicles
Narnia
The Bible

>>3064276
man, this analysis is shitty as hell. ASOIAF is an entertaining book series with many flaws and some elements of quality that martin does well. "it fucking sucks, lol, eat it neckbears" is such a reductive and shitty and fucking ignorant way of critique. god dang it.

I don't understand the blatant procrastination with GRRM.

I can understand a series of this magnitude takes time and effort to do, but the time span between books is pretty ridiculous.

I like another anon posted in another thread, won't be reading this until he's finished with it.

>>3064304
Try reading The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Donaldson started writing the series in the 70's and still hasn't finished.

>>3064272
>isn't as deeply involved in a critique of the genre as ASOIAF is
This is one of the things I admire about GRRM. I think he has an aversion for the what the modern fantasy genre has become almost as much as the typical /lit/ poster.

i wish all you faggots would go back to /tv/ and /v/ and stop coming to /lit/ to talk about your juvenile fantasy shit. seriously, go back to your people. you can all sit around on your fat fucking asses and stroke your neckbeards and talk about dragons and swords and magic.

>>3064290
Just so you know, when you encounter this kind of 'critique' of Asoiaf here on /lit/, 9/10 it's a troll. GRRM hate is one of /lit/'s established troll cards. Sure there a some people here who will come up with proper and intelligent reasons on why they think the series is bad, but when it solely consists of 'soap opera lol ancient evil is for manchildren', you can dismiss it.

Just so you know, ASOIAF fags have a very strong defense mechanism where they convince themselves that anyone who says the series is shit is trolling. It has proven an effective method considering they still start these threads with the notion that people want to discuss Martin and his books. Apparently, it's so effective they think we actually want to discuss ASOIAF every single day, several times a day!

>>3064334
i'm aware, just gets on my nerves sometimes

>>3064366
the funny thing is, i don't even like ASOIAF that much, and i almost never want to discuss it

You can't. No book has greater characters than Stannis.

>>3064014
I'd say only Book of the New Sun and Bas Lag cycle are better.

>>3064290
>ASOIAF is an entertaining book series with many flaws and some elements of quality that martin does well.
It's much more than that imo. Calling the series 'entertaining' and 'fun' I think is to not fully give it credit. For one thing, Martin's approach to the importance of the passage of time is really quite remarkable. He makes definite statements on the way people are affected and changed by to march of history. Actually I don't think I've encountered a work that does this sort of thing so effortlessly. It's often like reading a history text book. Say what you want about his prose but Martin captures the essence of peoples' places in a larger society and they way their actions and characters are influenced by those positions really well.

Official /thread

Pendragon

>>3064366
>considering they still start these threads with the notion that people want to discuss Martin and his books.
OP was probably trolling with this thread to begin with, genius.

>>3064309
That's a particularly long time, but at least he's expected to finish his last book in 2013.

From what I've come to understand there's still 2 more books, and everyone is riding on the fact that he won't keel over and die due to his obesity.

>>3064375
Explain. What's so great about that character?

>>3064392
From My First Sex Teacher?

>>3064387
>He makes definite statements on the way people are affected and changed by to march of history. Actually I don't think I've encountered a work that does this sort of thing so effortlessly. It's often like reading a history text book. Say what you want about his prose but Martin captures the essence of peoples' places in a larger society and they way their actions and characters are influenced by those positions really well.

have you read, like, Proust, Tolstoy, Zola?

because, i'm just saying, if you haven't read those people, and more generally if you haven't read people who are renowned for doing this it's difficult to care about your judgments, and it's difficult to care whether you've encountered a work that does this sort of thing so effortlessly when you haven't read the things to compare it to. i'm really not trying to pull a literary dickwaving move here; i'm just saying that you're trying to put it at the big boys' table and judge it by the highest standards and say its good, and if you haven't read the things that set those highest standards, i'm not really sure how to take your argument.

>>3064334

Nah, the real truth behind it is that unlike the TV crown that just discovered GRRM a year ago, we actually read his series years and years ago, and we loved it, and we patiently waited for each new book with zeal. Then it became apparent to us that he lost it, that he is in deep writers block and that all the plot potential has evaporated. So when we see one of the regular topic about ASOIAF, we ignore it or brush it aside with one liner.

>>3064408
No, it's a book series by DJ Machale. I read them all in middle school.

>>3064418

If you don't think books 4 and 5 are his best work I'm afraid you have the plebs. It's an incurable condition. I'm sorry.

>>3064418
Speak for yourself faggot

>>3064435
>the plebs
Anybody who reads the fucking thing un-ironically is a pleb

>>3064418
True, but it's still fun. I enjoyed the last book despite his poor characterization ruining two important characters (Dany and Jon), writing the same Arya chapter as in the Feast, doing a poor imitation of Robert Howard without going full Quixote with Tyrion and Jorah's Valyrian Adventure, degrading battles to morbid offhand fairytale descriptions...

... but other than happenings on The Wall, I thought that most of the happenings in Westeros were fine. Except Griff (real or fake, whatever)... such a lame character. At least he cut out Euron and his Vikings, Victarion is at least readable in his madness.

>>3064375

Just from the top of my head:

Siddhartha
Fool from Robbin Hobb series
Leopold Bloom
Gregor Samsa
Piere Bezhukhov
Captain Nemo

>>3064442

>poor characterization ruining two important characters (Dany and Jon)

What are you talking about?

>>3064442

In all honesty I'm still to read the last book. I got it the day it was released, read couple of pages, then returned to what I was reading and somehow never returned to it. I was disappointed with countless cliffhangers in A Feast for Crows, but I don't think that was the real cause.

>>3064453
Daario crooning and Jon playing Caesar. Up to that point nothing gave away that they were dimwits.

>>3064484
Yeah, me too. Still haven't read the most recent book. Don't know if I ever will. Just don't care.

>>3064484
You're gonna enjoy this one then since NOTHING gets resolved. Imagine if A Clash of Kings ended just before Blackwater and you'll get what DwD is about. Only without good writing.

>>3064499

Why would anything need to be resolved? The series isn't over yet.

Robert Jordan was a better writer than George RR Martin.

But they are alike in one thing: neither one will have lived to see the end of their series

>>3064518

>Robert Jordan was a better writer than George RR Martin.

How?

>>3064512
Because every book before that gave some conclusion to a storyline or two? You're assuming that I said that some great answers needed to be had / big pictures revealed. And I only noted the difference between this and previous books.

>>3064524
Better prose writer, better characterization and writing of emotion, extremely good at free indirect discourse, equally realistic politics and history. Fell off in plotting for a couple books (note that I didn't say WoT was the better series), and isn't as well regarded because he's not grimly realistic and "mature" in the same way Martin is and never had the TV show or anything like that, but was probably a better writer.

>>3064545

>Better prose writer, better characterization and writing of emotion, extremely good at free indirect discourse, equally realistic politics and history.

Oh look, the little mongoloid thinks picking parts that make up writing and adding "better" in front of them is actually different from just saying "better writing". How adorable/annoying.

This series was praised by /lit/ before the series came out and every pleb started reading it :)
the worst anyone ever said about it was : 'it wasnt for me, i didnt like it so much'

Stay mad and hipster.

>>3064554

You sound like you haven't gone outside in 3 months. Jesus christ.

>>3064559
That's false.

Farseer Trilogy and Geene Wolfe's Urth thing.

>>3064554
the character arcs of jordan's characters are more interesting and more realistically depicted, to me; the way, for instance, that rand, perrin, and mat deal with grief in Shadow Rising is depicted subtly and realistically, in a way appropriate for the characters. the way that each character's understanding of the world is shaped by their position in it, and particularly by their gender, is thoughtful and well-done. jordan is really good at things like that. martin seems more realistic because he's more dour and grim and pessimistic, and those are the traits that we tend to 'read' as realistic and good characterization. i don't think they are.

don't fucking try and play that you're the fucking connoisseur for liking George Fucking R R Martin. we're comparing two authors of popular epic fantasy - neither is a master of prose. you think martin's a better, fine. you want to make an argument, be my guest.

this

>>3064565
I've read through both of the series and thoroughly enjoy them.

My biggest problem with Jordan is that he kind of has an idiot plot.
If they characters would occasionally take the time to talk to eachother and explain what they know, 90% of the plot would not happen.

1. Aegon V
2. Brynden Rivers
3. Rhaegar Targaryen
4. Baelor Breakspear
5. Aegon the Conqueror
6. Maester Aemon Targaryen
7. Aegon VI
8. Maegor I
9. Jaehaerys I
10. Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers
11. Daemon Blackfyre
12. Shiera Seastar
13. Daenerys Targaryen
........
...................
....................................
9000. Viserys Targaryen
9001. Aerys II
9002. Aegon IV
9003. Baelor the Blessed

AW SHIT NIGGAS. IT'S HAPPENING.

>>3064014
Gulag Archipelago

>>3064916
>If they characters would occasionally take the time to talk to eachother and explain what they know, 90% of the plot would not happen.

I'm not trying to pull the "realism" card, but this reflects how often problems could be resolved in the real world. I don't think it's unrealistic to have a large amount of the conflict in a long, "cultures clash" series be a result of poor communication.

>>3064023
I agree, it may of not been the most well written at times, but I'll be damned if feels weren't felt throughout those books

>>3065016
Except he takes it way too far.
Even the characters that are good friends and talk regularly often keep really important things secret from each other for no reason.
And even when characters have the means for instant travel and instant communication, they use them too rarely.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the books and the characters, but the middle books (6-12) really get on my nerves for stretching things out unnecessarily.

>>3065049
I would agree that the gene for channeling also seems to cause obscene stubbornness, and that the later books jump off the deep end as far as MOAR SUBPLOTS go.

>>3064014

Hell no.

Any 'fantasy' book that uses names like 'Jon', 'Jayne', 'Dayvid', 'Lysa' or 'Joffrey' unironically is pure, unadulterated shit.

>>3065054
Haha, yeah. I also find it funny when people accuse him of misogyny, because all the character make really dumb mistakes equally.

>>3065049
I think his characters usually have in-character reasons for not sharing information, though. And they're usually realistic character reasons.

>>3065054
I'm not about to defend the plotting, especially in the later books. I said that was his weakness.

>>3065061
a few things are legitimately wonky, most things that are regarded as "misogynistic" are the fanbase misinterpreting things, or intentional matters of setting detail (albeit sometimes poorly executed)

>>3064315
Well, it's pretty damn ironic then how he ushered in a new era of grimdark rapey fantasy which is now equally as much of a cliche, if not worse.

And with things seemingly building towards three "chosen" dragon riders of the noble Targ lineage coming to save the world from ice zombies.. is this GRRM subverting his own "critique" and plunging headlong into high fantasy?

>>3064406
Neckbeards like him because Stannis the Mannis. Yeah, I don't know either.

>>3064435
>book 5
>where do whores go
>much and more
>nipples on breastplates
>POV characters reach critical mass
>Add some more
>Plot moves at a snail's pace
>Masterpiece

>>3064442
I'm just mad because John isn't dead, and I truly wish for him to be.

>Fantasy
>Good

Das kapital is my favorite fantasy book.

Marx is a genius.

>>3065215

>Well, it's pretty damn ironic then how he ushered in a new era of grimdark
What's grimdark about ASoIaF?
>rapey fantasy
Have you read these books? Considering the size of the series there's barely any rape depicted.
>save the world from ice zombies
Seriously, did you get your information from some wiki or something? The Others are clearly not "zombies" but intelligent beings, and we don't know what their motives are.
>plunging headlong into high fantasy?
ASoIaF has always been high fantasy.

>>3065228

You didn't manage to make a single critique of the book.

>>3065232

He might be. The Jon who is resurrected might not be the same person (unless his "identity" will be safe within Ghost or some bullshit like that in which case yeah that's going to suck).

The Warlord Chronicles

>>3065255
>Not grimdark
>barely any rape
>Not a shitload of zombies roaming the tundra
>High fantasy

>>3065257
But that is exactly what's going to happen. It's foreshadowed pretty extensively in the prologue with the wildling.

>>3065257
complaints of slow moving plot, too many characters and retarded repetitive prose is not a valid critique?

>>3065289
>thinking Jon is even dead
>in the year 203AL

>>3065292

>complaints of slow moving plot

That's not a critique, that's a description. The plot moves slow, how is that bad?

>too many characters

What is "too many" and why?

>and retarded repetitive prose is not a valid critique?

1) It's repetitive for a reason, because they're sayings.
2) It's nowhere near as repetitive as you imply.

the simple fact that WoT has a character called "Rand" means I'll never read it.

>>3065358
why, there are worse names than Rand in this

Fantasy doesn't allow the reader to suppose or make interpretations that is why lower intellect individuals tend to gravitate towards it.

If I'm reading a novel and Jacob is running down the lane I can suppose that he will continue to run down the lane or stop. However, in Fantasy the writer can just say 'oh and then Jacob turned into a dragon and flew away'

>>3065308
>The plot moves slow, how is that bad?

Why waste pages on people doing absolutely nothing? He doesn't have the prose to make it worthwhile, he doesn't shore up characterization, it only conveys a mood of tedium and triviality, and it doesn't serve any thematic conceits.

>>3065409
That's the most idiotic thing I have ever read.

>not buying this tomorrow

>>3065409

>Fantasy doesn't allow the reader to suppose or make interpretations that is why lower intellect individuals tend to gravitate towards it.

What the hell are you talking about? How does the fantasy genre prevent that in any way?

>If I'm reading a novel and Jacob is running down the lane I can suppose that he will continue to run down the lane or stop. However, in Fantasy the writer can just say 'oh and then Jacob turned into a dragon and flew away'

Are you going insane? What is this drivel?

>>3065413

>Why waste pages on people doing absolutely nothing?

They aren't "absolutely nothing", they're about the characters.

>he doesn't shore up characterization, it only conveys a mood of tedium and triviality, and it doesn't serve any thematic conceits.

Give an example.

>>3065426
>They aren't "absolutely nothing", they're about the characters.

We learned so much we didn't already know about Brienne in her chapters, sure. They were totally necessary and finely detail her complicated and delicate psyche. We learn a lot about her family and friends, her hopes and dreams.

>Give an example.

How am I supposed to give an example of a lack?

>>3065442

>We learned so much we didn't already know about Brienne in her chapters, sure. They were totally necessary and finely detail her complicated and delicate psyche. We learn a lot about her family and friends, her hopes and dreams.

Yes we did in fact learn about Brienne quite a lot in her chapters, I don't see how you could deny that. But that's not all her chapters were about, they were also about the smallfolk and how the war affected them.

>How am I supposed to give an example of a lack?

You said GRRM wrotes pages doing "absolutely nothing". Surely there are examples.

>>3065409
>If I'm reading a novel and Jacob is running down the lane I can suppose that he will continue to run down the lane or stop. However, in Fantasy the writer can just say 'oh and then Jacob turned into a dragon and flew away'

cringe

why are you self-appointed spokesmen of literature-with-a-capital-l so uniformly idiotic? is it because actual well-read people aren't foolish enough to fall into the trap of elitism?

Dragonball Z.
Oh written? Some subseries about Scrooge McDuck.

JAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPES
JAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPES
JAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPES
JAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPESJAPES

>>3065442
>>3065456
I actually enjoyed Brienne's chapters, mostly because I already enjoyed the character and found it interesting how she interacted with the world.

I'm the first person to bitch and whine about certain other characters taking up pages and pages of useless and unnecessarily long winded travelogue, though.

>>3065655
I enjoy Brienne as a character, but her plot arc in AFFC went nowhere. It might have been forgiveable if we, the readers, weren't already aware of Sansa and Arya's whereabouts.

>Reading Fantasy.
No. I personaly don't like that.

>>3065678

What is this "went nowhere" shit? Everything that you saw in those chapters was the end in and of itself. And even if we ignore that it did end with Brienne facing Cat.

>It might have been forgiveable if we, the readers, weren't already aware of Sansa and Arya's whereabouts.

What is this need for suspense? This isn't a thriller.

>think maybe I should give this a chance
>buy A Game of Thrones

“We should start back,” Gared urged as the woods began to grow dark around them.
“The wildlings are dead.”
“Do the dead frighten you?” Ser Waymar Royce asked with just the hint of a smile.
Gared did not rise to the bait. He was an old man, past fifty, and he had seen the lordlings come and go. “Dead is dead,” he said. “We have no business with the dead.”
“Are they dead?” Royce asked softly. “What proof have we?”
“Will saw them,” Gared said. “If he says they are dead, that’s proof enough for me.”
Will had known they would drag him into the quarrel sooner or later. He wished it had been later rather than sooner. “My mother told me that dead men sing no songs,” he put in.
“My wet nurse said the same thing, Will,” Royce replied. “Never believe anything you hear at a woman’s tit. There are things to be learned even from the dead.” His voice echoed, too loud in the twilit forest.
“We have a long ride before us,” Gared pointed out. “Eight days, maybe nine. And night is falling.”

>Stop. I just can't do it to myself

>>3065692

I understand giving a book "a chance" entails reading more than just a couple of paragraphs.

>>3065409

>>3065358

I'll be the first to admit that Jordan was shit at names/fantasy languages

>Moiraine (mwah) in a universe with no french
>a'post'roph'es e'veryw'here
>no real structure

But Rand is a pretty good name.

>>3065773

>>3065759
"That prose is nigh-on unreadable" Anon pointed out.

>>3065793

How?

>>3065815
It's cliched, lacking in description (unless 'dark and 'twilit' are all you want), full of the cringe-inducing prose typical of fantasy and the guy can't go a single paragraph before throwing in the prescribed dose of misogyny. And just what in the fuck is 'Ser' about?
>scary dark forest
>wildlings
>Ser Waymar Royce
>Gared
>lordlings
>dead singing songs
>long journey ahead of us

Discworld. actually I love discworld and a song of fire and ice respectively.

>>3065358
What a pussy...

>>3065887

>It's cliched, lacking in description (unless 'dark and 'twilit' are all you want),

You're talking about a single paragraph taken from a 15 page chapter so saying it "lacks description" is kind of ridiculous as there's plenty of that as you go along in the text. And even if there wasn't there's no need for some purple prose description of a dark, cold forest, it isn't exactly hard to imagine.

>guy can't go a single paragraph before throwing in the prescribed dose of misogyny.

Misogyny? Are you actually fucking serious?

>scary dark forest
>wildlings
>Ser Waymar Royce
>Gared
>lordlings
>dead singing songs
>long journey ahead of us

What is this all about? What are you trying to say?

>>3065887
Lack of superfluous description, imaginary misogyny, and neologisms. Those are your issues? And a large part of GRRM's shtick is taking traditional fantasy settings and conventions and then subverting the hell out of them later in the series.

>>3065887
yet another self-proclaimed literature expert proven to not know what the hell he's talking about.

>Never believe anything you hear at a woman’s tit

briennes story showed us how devastated the whole country was after the war and how especially the poorer people were fucked by all this shit the nobles pulled. it gave us a firsthand perspective. I thought that was important. all other characters are nobles and knights and and they are sort of disconnected from the normal people.

>>3065958
brienne is a noble and for all intents and purposes a knight

her chapters did give us a glimpse at the horrors the smallfolk are subjected to at the whims of their lords, but it was just that - a glimpse. lots of filler in the brienne chapters. i still like her though, i hope cersei doesn't kill her.

>>3065965
I know what she is, but contrary to the other characters, she actually sees and experiences whats going on in the country, and that is something the readers haven't got so far, only in the backround. (actually, we get some of that through Dany, but that is not in Westeros. All the other stuff we get always deals with the nobility.)

>>3064014
>series

Well there's your problem right there.

This

Sanderson's Cosmere

The black company

Can anyone explain how in a society where they are still bloodletting and leeching people and pouring boiling wine in open wounds (mfw boiling evaporates the alcohol, which would be the point of using wine), Cersei is able to understand that by eating Robert's cum, she is eating "thousands of his children". This implies a knowledge of spermatazoa, something not discovered until the invention of the microscope.

CAPTCHA: kingedf exception

>>3066077

Don't the maesters have microscopes?

>>3066077
There were much older theories in human history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preformationism

>>3066081

Thanks anon, with that paradox resolved, I'll sleep better tonight.

>>3066077

Oh God, I like ASOIAF a lot, but that really does come off as awful writing.

I do remember however my own struggle with that remark during the course of reading. As I recall it was simply and quite concivingly resolved by allowing that Cersei means the thousands of his children that she swallows over the course of a thousand separate blowjobs, each cum-gulping being seen individually as the erasure of a single new life.

Now, this seemed clear to me at the time, but in regards to the extent of Cersei's cum-guzzling odyssey, then well... I'm not quite sure what I've just written.

>cum guzzling incestuous queen
>not misogynistic they said

It's just 50 Shades of Grey for neckbeards right?

>>3066126

But the fandom is pretty split down the middle gender-wise so that makes no sense (this is ignoring the fact that the series is nothing like 50 Shades of Grey in the first place).

>>3064304
My nan actually recommended to me the Thomas Covenant books the other day. She started reading them in 2003 and is re-reading them all so she is ready for them to come out in 2013. Damn I love her.

>>3066134
>fandom is pretty split down the middle gender-wise
Got a source on that?
Besides, neckbeards, hambeasts, it's all the same.

>nothing like 50 Shades of Grey
It's poorly written, escapist, pornographic pulp aimed at exploiting the insecurities and eccentricities of a particular demographic (which both the authors themselves happen to belong to).

>>3066168

>Got a source on that?

10+ years of contact with said fandom

>poorly written
How?
>pornographic
How?
>exploiting the insecurities and eccentricities of a particular demographic (which both the authors themselves happen to belong to).
What exactly do you mean, and what demographic?

>>3066189
you cite experience as a reputable source?

>>3064272
>not as much character depth
>Jezal's development
>Legen in general
>Glokta going from a Sult's bitch to Bayaz's bitch.
No, you're saying there isn't as much depth because there aren't as many characters. Abercrombie is superior in every way, mainly because he knows how to end a story.

>>3066189

>poorly written
He uses buzzwords ('Ser', 'nuncle', 'niggardly', and 'half a hundred') to make the books seem archaic, when it's really just annoying and jarring.
>pornographic
He uses incest and rape for shock value.
>exploiting the insecurities and eccentricities of a particular demographic (which both the authors themselves happen to belong to).
He exploits readers' secret love of the risque to grab their attention and divert their thoughts from the painfully, long, boring plot and shoddy writing.
And, for the record, I've red the whole series (I'm more of Wild Cards fan, though), so I'm not a whiny little cunt spewing lies.

>>3066268

In this instance I don't see why it's not a good gauge. I mean, do you think that I just ran by coincidence into all the female fans of ASoIaF and the male fans eluded me? There's only one big ASoIaF forum on the internet and the female presence there is huge (as it is on another forum I frequent). Here's a thread of them discussing this very topic (it devolves into debate about sexism etc.) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/52765-i-am-amazed-at-the-amount-of-female-fans-on-this-se
ries/

In any case my experience with the fandom is a better source than what this buffoon >>3066126 has (which, I assume, is nothing but his own preconceptions)

I don't about better than ASOIAF, but right now I'm reading the Vlad Taltos series by Steven Brust. I'm on the third book, Teckla. Pretty dandy stuff.

>>3066311

>He uses buzzwords ('Ser', 'nuncle', 'niggardly', and 'half a hundred') to make the books seem archaic, when it's really just annoying and jarring.

Well that's a very minor detail.

>He uses incest and rape for shock value.

Examples of this?

>He exploits readers' secret love of the risque to grab their attention and divert their thoughts from the painfully, long, boring plot and shoddy writing.

God, you're just using different adjectives but saying the same thing over and over.

I've never read ASOIF, and I won't until that fat bloodclart finishes the series. However, I suspect that he's fucking bored of it. I doubt he will finish it.

When you consider the number of books he's written, you can see how he'd find this series a but of an albatross.

Fuck off /lit/, everyone knows you don't like it just because it's so popular right now and fantasy is usually so childish. No other reasons.

>>3066337
>Well that's a very minor detail (reply to poor writing).
It's not a "minor" detail. It's a constant, pretentious (I apologize for that adjective) act that diverts my attention away from reading because I have to role my eyes at it.
>Examples of this ('this' being incest)?
The relationship between Cersi and Jamie (Jamie is still my favorite character, though), though that's not a proper example because it fuels the plot. The two or three times Brienne was nearly raped (once is okay, but twice is just masturbatory). Dany and Drogo ('he road her like a stallion', which I repeated verbatim from the first book)
>God, you're just using different adjectives but saying the same thing over and over.
Well, yeah, no fucking shit. The second statement was only a specified version of the third. Incest is an 'eccentricity', or a fetish. I'm not the guy who posed those three things, so don't blame for another person's stupidity.

Now, I'm not saying the book is bad. But I am mad that he is considered the reigning champion of contemporary fantasy.

>>3066377
>Dany and Drogo ('he road her like a stallion', which I repeated verbatim from the first book)
That's neither incest or rape.

>>3066377

>It's not a "minor" detail. It's a constant, pretentious (I apologize for that adjective) act that diverts my attention away from reading because I have to role my eyes at it.

But it does make it sound more archaic so how is it pretentious?

>The two or three times Brienne was nearly raped (once is okay, but twice is just masturbatory).

Jesus.. You'd think if George was interested in "shock value" he would've had Brienne actually raped. Her being threatened with rape is hardly for "shock value".

>Dany and Drogo ('he road her like a stallion', which I repeated verbatim from the first book)

First of all she was only raped for the first few nights after they got married and I still don't see how this is for "shock value".

>Incest is an 'eccentricity', or a fetish.

And also something that has been prevalent throughout history. What's the problem again?

>>3066189
>10+ years of contact with said fandom
That's cool, but your personal experience doesn't exactly say much about the entire ASOIAF fandom, and one can only wonder how the TV show has affected it.
>how is it poorly written?
His plotting is a clusterfuck. It's like he started writing and then thought "shit, I forgot about the magical evil beings every fantasy novel is supposed to have. Better tack on a prologue and try to work them in down the line somehow." The guy obviously hasn't a clue what he's doing, evidenced by the fact he's been writing it for 15+ years and still has 2 (we hope) volumes left.
His worldbuilding is poor. It's all well and good creating cool characters (and then killing them just as quick) and building intricate social structures but if you lack the imagination and descriptive skills to build a world to put them in then it's useless.
>how is it pornographic?
Seriously? Do you want me to trawl through the books and post examples of all the needless sodomy and rape? Are you going to tell me that it reveals something about the characters that couldn't have been done otherwise?

>>3066406
>What exactly do you mean, and what demographic?
Obviously for 50 Shades I mean undersexed middleaged housewives to a large extent.
For ASOIAF I mean the demographic of people who play video games religiously, watch anime, maybe even play dungeons and dragons and similar games, and of course, read fantasy books.
The demographic that makes up a large part of 4chan.
I mean that Martin isn't doing anything revolutionary, he's just rehashing stuff we've all seen before, the only differences being the names of things and a different map at the front of the book. He's writing the kind of story that he (a member of said demographic) wants to read, and one he knows you'll consume.
That's all fine, if you want to read this kind of stuff for cheap trills then go ahead. But to dress it up as something it's not and to dismiss anyone with the slightest criticism of your beloved GRR Martin as a troll is dishonest, not only to the rest of us, but to yourself too.

>>3066121
I'm afraid the misogynist is you, friend. You seem to be under the impression that the work is misogynistic since one of the female leads have a somewhat active sex life.

>>3066422
Ugh, quoted the wrong post, you get it

>>3066377
lol, if you can't handle a few anachronisms be sure to never read Mason and Dixon.

Yes, /lit/ just mad. You go George!

>>3066406
>she was only raped for the first few nights after they got married
>not misogynistic they said

>>3066394

>>3066406
>But it does make it sound more archaic so how is it pretentious?
>More archaic
>Not archaicer
Confirmed for unarchaic dumbass. And his writing is pretentious because it aspires to be something greater than it is: the words that populate the pages of a fantasy novel.
>Jesus.. You'd think if George was interested in "shock value" he would've had Brienne actually raped. Her being threatened with rape is hardly for "shock value".
But whenever she was with a man, she was safe. Martin is hilariously bad at writing a strong woman. On the other hand, Abercrombie has a capable female protagonist (Ferro).
>First of all she was only raped for the first few nights after they got married and I still don't see how this is for "shock value".
No, she wanted it the first time, but then he would 'mount' and 'ride' her whenever she didn't want it. First of all, a fourteen getting pounded in the ass by a barbarian king at least twice her age is pretty "shocking" to most people.
>And also something that has been prevalent throughout history. What's the problem again?
Did I ever refute that it never happened? He still uses it as 'shock value' to attract readers to a cheap thrill (a thrill that I admittedly enjoyed the first time I read it). Jamie could have easily been a common knight, a Kingslayer, who was fucking the queen.

>>3066394
>>3066377
>those early Dany sex scenes

Oh hell, those are just amazingly bad. Still don't understand how I got past them. The "seduction" on her wedding night is especially cringe worthy.

>>3066418

>That's cool, but your personal experience doesn't exactly say much about the entire ASOIAF fandom, and one can only wonder how the TV show has affected it.

And what exactly are you basing this ridiculous idea that a big majority of ASoIaF fans are male on?

>His plotting is a clusterfuck. It's like he started writing and then thought "shit, I forgot about the magical evil beings every fantasy novel is supposed to have. Better tack on a prologue and try to work them in down the line somehow."

He's known how things are going to play out since the start, it's the middle that has taken him so long because the plotting gets complicated and you have to balance a shitton of variables so that it all makes sense. Also we don't know the Others' motivation yet so calling them evil is premature.

>His worldbuilding is poor. It's all well and good creating cool characters (and then killing them just as quick) and building intricate social structures but if you lack the imagination and descriptive skills to build a world to put them in then it's useless.

There's nothing to work with here. All you said is that part x of his writing is "poor".

>Seriously? Do you want me to trawl through the books and post examples of all the needless sodomy and rape?

The number of "sodomy and rape" depicted in the books is in the single digits, even after 5 long ass books. Stop talking out of your ass.

>Are you going to tell me that it reveals something about the characters that couldn't have been done otherwise?

Lets assume this false premise that these books are filled with sodomy and rape. Your sentence "couldn't have been done otherwise?" is very revealing. It implies that these things should be avoided unless they're absolutely necessary. Such horseshit. Why would they need to be avoided? Because they have "shock factor"? Don't make me laugh. You're just another prude.

>>3066422

>For ASOIAF I mean the demographic of people who play video games religiously, watch anime, maybe even play dungeons and dragons and similar games, and of course, read fantasy books.

And do you have proof that this is the demographic of ASoIaF? No. Of course you don't. Because it's false.

>>3066439
How is it misogynistic if it's told from the females POV? It's more racist since the dothraki are portrayed as such violent and aggressive beings and guess what? It's relevant to the plot!

>For ASOIAF I mean the demographic of people who play video games religiously, watch anime, maybe even play dungeons and dragons and similar games, and of course, read fantasy books.
Game of Thrones is currently pretty much the most popular show on TV, it's demography is much larger.

Posts like this further enforce that the people who don't like the series don't like it because of other people who like it, not because it's bad. It's just plain elitist.

Literally tens of thousands, Game of Thrones is really poorly written, it's better as a tv show.

>>3066463
>The number of "sodomy and rape" depicted in the books is in the single digits, even after 5 long ass books. Stop talking out of your ass.

Are you actually serious? Single digits? SINGLE DIGITS? As for the sodomy, that suddenly popped up in force in the last book. It's as if GRRM thought to dissimilate the accusations of misogyny by throwing in a bunch of male rape victims.

I agree with the person complaining about the shlocky treatment of sex and violence and Martin's occasional digressions into outright fan service, but if you delve a bit deeper in the text I think there's a lot of merit to be found. I think the series benefits greatly from Martin's clearly rather comprehensive grounding in classical literature and mythology. It's not hard to spot shades of Homer, Ovid and Shakespeare in Martin's characterisation, and I personally think that to a large degree he does these formidable antecedents a good deal of justice.

>>3066487
I don't remember a single male getting raped in that book. Stop focusing on minor details, they're not there for useless shock value just because you're so prude.

>>3066451
European royalty seemed to enjoy incest very much. The royalty in ASOIAF are loosely based off them, so when writing those characters chapters you'd expect him to, you know, not ignore it.

>Jamie could have easily been a common knight, a Kingslayer, who was fucking the queen.

Now you're being obtuse. Obviously he could be just some guy, but a large portion of the plot is driven by that incest. It's not just there as filler.

>>3066451

>And his writing is pretentious because it aspires to be something greater than it is: the words that populate the pages of a fantasy novel.

So now you have some irrational prejudice against anything that belongs in the fantasy genre. You just keep digging that hole.

>But whenever she was with a man, she was safe. Martin is hilariously bad at writing a strong woman.

Catelyn, Olenna Tyrell, Arianne Martell, Margaery Tyrell, Ygritte, Asha Greyjoy, Meera Reed

>No, she wanted it the first time, but then he would 'mount' and 'ride' her whenever she didn't want it. First of all, a fourteen getting pounded in the ass by a barbarian king at least twice her age is pretty "shocking" to most people.

Of course it's shocking to someone, doesn't mean it's there for "shock value".

>He still uses it as 'shock value' to attract readers to a cheap thrill (a thrill that I admittedly enjoyed the first time I read it). Jamie could have easily been a common knight, a Kingslayer, who was fucking the queen.

I say he included it because it's something that was prevalent in history, you say he included it because of "shock value", there is no winning this argument for either of us (frankly, I think you're literally delusional as in imagining things that aren't there).

>>3066487
Rape was extremely prevalent in mediaeval society. If Martin overlooked that it would be a pretty large omission and pretty huge dent in the setting's authenticity.

>>3066472
>How is it misogynistic if it's told from the females POV?
>How is it misogynistic if it's told from the females POV?
>How is it misogynistic if it's told from the females POV?
>How is it misogynistic if it's told from the females POV?
>How is it misogynistic if it's told from the females POV?

>>3066472
It's fap fodder. Whether inherently misogynistic or not is harder to say, but comments such as >>3066406 certainly are. In that naive, hilarious kind of way.

>First of all she was only raped for the first few nights after they got married and I still don't see how this is for "shock value".

Oh boy

>>3066487

You're welcome to name more than 10 depicted rapes from the series.

>>3066451
>Martin is hilariously bad at writing a strong woman

that's because he's not concerned with writing strong women, he's concerned with writing realistic women (within the sociological framework of the setting he has has created).

>>3066507

What are you talking about? Because it's rape it's automatically there for "shock value"?

>>3066493
Off the top of my head:
>theon (strongly implied)
>the maester (repeatedly raped, then killed)
>Astaporian mercenaries making a big deal out of "keeping boys"

>>3066522
>theon (strongly implied)
Nope.

>the maester (repeatedly raped)
What? I'd remember that.

I'll give you the last one, but who says it's raping? Ancient Greece anyone?

>>3066487

>GRRM thought to dissimilate the accusations of misogyny by throwing in a bunch of male rape victims.

I doubt GRRM is so stupid as to give a single fuck about people who are retarded enough to call him a "misogynist".

>>3066519
Read again, please. It's kind of cute how defensive you get when people dare mention the less impressive aspects of GRRM's books.

I actually enjoy the books on some level, but great literature they are not.

>>3066534
Maester on Victarion's ship.
You're not a very good fan...

>>3066552
No one here is saying they are great literature. They are still good books.

>>3066552

How is that comment misogynistic? And how are Dany's scenes "fap fodder"? You sound like another delusional motherfucker.

>>3066534
What would you call that scene with Theon and Jeyne being forced by Ramsey? Consensual sex between two willing partners?

And it's strongly implied that Ramsay flayed Theon's cock.

Welp, this thread fell apart.

>>3066552
This is the problem with /lit/. If anything is said to be good they expect it to be Dostoyevski or something. Learn to appreciate things for what they are. I really like Die Hard, but I wouldn't say it's great cinema, however nobody on /tv/ would say it's bad.

>>3066567
>Consensual sex between two willing partners?
It's not sodomy.

>it's strongly implied that Ramsay flayed Theon's cock.
That's just torture, not rape.

>>3066587
I thought we were talking rape and sexual assault in general. Which as I recall you found nearly non existant.

>>3066578
Well this is a radical departure from the rest of the thread.
So, what are you saying?
That there are objective criteria to judge books by and, in comparison to 'real' literature, Martin's writing is indeed poorly written pulp?
That fantasy is an inferior genre and A Song of Ice and Fire is the best of a bad bunch?

>>3066587
"just torture" lol

please tell me it's not the fashion nowadays to regard rape as worse than torture?

>>3066599
>That there are objective criteria to judge books by and, in comparison to 'real' literature, Martin's writing is indeed poorly written pulp?
>That fantasy is an inferior genre and A Song of Ice and Fire is the best of a bad bunch?
I'd say Martin's books are excellent pulp, but other than that, yes I guess this is what I'm saying..

>>3066605
I didn't mean to undermine torture, just meant to say that flaying someone, no matter what part of their body it is, isn't rape.

>>3066623
What if it's sexually motivated?

>>3066605
nah, rape is a form of torture

>>3066623
...and that's why ASoIF is a good series, in your opinion?

>>3066626
Was it really? The enjoyment he got from doing it didn't seem sexual to me.

>>3066623
Flaying and mutilating someones genitals is sexualized violence. And we already know that Ramsay really enjoys that kind of violence.

I think the novels should've had more instances of the words and phrases: craven, boiled leather, japes, jest, mummer's farce, lemon cakes, coz, and nuncle...but especially japes. You can't have too many instances of "japes". japity japity japes.

>>3066634
Of course not, you claimed there was huge amount of sodomy and male raping in the last book, I say there were only few cases.

>>3066635
The Ramsay-Reek dynamic seems totally sexual to me. Ramsay gets his jollies from torturing poor old Theon.

What the hells everyone's problem? It's not great, but surely it's good or even decent. It's not BAD like Hunger Games, Da Vinci Code or something, stop being so black and white.

>>3066616
They're not even good pulp, though. Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith or Lovecraft set the standards for good trash literature, which GRRM doesn't meet since his stories are simply too long-winded and plodding.

>>3066645
I thought it was more of just about power and sadism, not the sexual kind, well perhaps slightly.

>>3066652
But a lot of us DO think it's bad. I haven't read it, though.

>>3066657
So why say "us" then, prick? Who appointed you spokesman of /lit/?

>>3066653
I enjoy all of those and would indeed put GRRM on the same level as Howard and Smith, perhaps not Lovecraft. But c'mon, Lovecraft can also be quite long-winded and plodding.

>>3066642
I didn't claim anything, I'm a different anon. The last book wasn't good, but not because of all the gratuitous rape and sodomy scenes. It simply felt like a huge cash-in, like GRRM got paid by every word.

>>3066653
Lovecraft fucking sucks, GRRM is way better.

>>>3066642
>mummer's farce

God please no

>>3066657
>think it's bad
>haven't read it
>talking out of my ass about shit I don't know nothing about

>>3066672
I liked the last book. It's certainly a step up from AFFC.

>>3066666
There's more than one person in this thread that's less than impressed with GRRM, so using 'us' is perfectly fine.

>>3066652
>surely it's good or even decent
source?
>BAD...Hunger Games, Da Vinci Code
source?

>>3066666
I'm not speaking for it, and I said 'us' because I'm a part of /lit/, 'us' included you and I, as well. I'd have been speaking for the board if I had said, "We do think it's bad, though."

And if you spend more than a day on /lit/, it becomes obvious that a lot of 'us' dislike ASOFAI.

>>3066656
>cock flaying
>forced to engage in sex with equally unwilling partner
>My Reek

Maybe slightly sexual

I would certainly put him over writers like Stephen King.

>>3066667
As a derail, what's your opinion on Fritz Leiber? Sure, he's one of the best fantasy writers, but are his works pulp or not?

>>3066682
No, because the pronoun "us" includes the person who's saying it. He has no right to say he finds the book bad when he hasn't read it. He was presuming to speak on behalf of /lit/, which, although incredibly lame in its own right, is even worse when coming from a fucking tripfag.

>>3066677
I didn't say I think it's bad, though.

>>3066695
>And if you spend more than a day on /lit/, it becomes obvious that a lot of 'us' dislike ASOFAI.
And how many of those, unlike you, have actually read some of it?

>>3066706
>No, because the pronoun "us" includes the person who's saying it.

This thread is as useless as nipples on a breastplate at a mummer's farce .... oh /lit/, you and your japity japes

>>3066712
And I specified a subset of 'us', one that doesn't necessarily include me.

>>3066707
>>3066706

The fuck would I decry something and then immediately say I haven't read it for? I'm sorry that I'm something of a shitty rhetoricist, but it should be obvious I wasn't stating my own opinion, but criticizing an argument.