/lit/ - Literature

>>3013494
>how do you sleep at night

I put my head down on the pillow and pull the sheets up over me. I normally have to make myself comfortable, though, since I very rarely get my ideal sleep positioning right first time.

on a leather couch. between sheets of bacon...

>>3013494
>how do you sleep at night?

In a greasy, beef and pork induced coma.

>>3013496
>>3013498
>>3013501
>it's almost as if i'm really on /b/!

>>3013510
We at /lit/ apologise sincerely for not responding in a serious and professional manner to this off-topic thread.

>>3013510
>posts an animal rights thread on a literature board
Yeah, it really is.

>comparing the consumption of animalswith the genocide of free human beings
>costanza.gif

>>3013494
Right, because in 100 years, vegetarians and vegans still won't be raging assholes.

Also, faggots and niggers would like to have a word with you.

Why is it okay with you that other omnivorous species eat meat, but not humans?
You're a bigot.

I somewhat agree OP. I can see a potential point in the future when in vitro meat might replace real meat, and public opinion will be swayed by the media to perceive the way we live now as 'immoral.'

As it stands, I believe all living organisms; from plants to humans, have the same 'right' to life. I would have no qualms eating a human if it was socially acceptable and I wouldn't be sent to prison.

>Implying the ethics of the future are any more valid than the ethics of the past
I live in the now.

>>3013494
I really liked pigs when I was a kid, but then I dissected a pig fetus in high school and I haven't since seen a baby pig without imagining breaking its jaw and sticking pins through it.

>>3013572
Damn, all I got was a frog.

>>3013551
Well... at least you're consistent.

>>3013572
An earthworm, a frog, and a fish in middle school. A goat's heart, a goat's brain, and cow eyes in elementary school.

>>3013578
If there were no social or legal stigma attached, and you could go to the supermarket and get packs of human meat, what would the problem be?

One night in long bygone times, man awoke and saw himself.
He saw that he was naked under cosmos, homeless in his own body. All things dissolved before his testing thought, wonder above wonder, horror above horror unfolded in his mind.

Then woman too awoke and said it was time to go and slay. And he fetched his bow and arrow, a fruit of the marriage of spirit and hand, and went outside beneath the stars. But as the beasts arrived at their waterholes where he expected them of habit, he felt no more the tiger's bound in his blood, but a great psalm about the brotherhood of suffering between everything alive.

That day he did not return with prey, and when they found him by the next moon, he was sitting dead by the waterhole.

>>3013590
Don't you get some sort of shaking thing from eating human meat?

Ever watch the discovery channel?

I've seen more nasty shit there than that in slaughterhouses. And that's nature. We are nature. We eat eachother. Deal with it op, get a life, fuck off etc.

In one hundred you'll look back and wished you had dumped your luddite morals there and then so you wouldn't be living in a fucking forest hut with your backwards thinking while rest of humanity takes off to the stars.

>>3013593
Kuru.

>>3013590
It depends on whether or not humans were farmed for the purpose or, I don't know, donated their bodies to the food interest upon death I suppose.

I am curious as to what human flesh tastes like, I admit.

>>3013494
>how do you sleep at night?
With a full tummy.

>>3013494
>can't own blacks
>can't kill jews
>can't hit women

I'll just enjoy my steak before they take that away as well. Let me be the last of the meat eaters.

>>3013594
4/10, has potential but the execution was lacking

>>3013494
>still succumbing to collective morality

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggy diggy.

>>3013627
>being contrarian for the sake of it

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggy diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggy

>>3013494
>packet of ham

I'm Jewish and I feel deeply offended that you'd assume that I'd do something like that

>being anti-semitic
>day after yom kippur

Shig.

>>3013494
>atrocities

Ah no. Animals don't feel anything anyways.

>>3013644
you get a big fat 0 for that

>>3013636
>not being contrarian for the sake of doing as you like without being bound to artificial boundaries

Sheeeeeuuuheu Dheeueueueh

>>3013649
>mfw he's bound by the collective morality because his actions are dependent on being converse to the majority

hurrr

>>3013649
How does one get 'bound to' a boundary? Maybe this whole posting thing isn't your cup of tea.

>>3013660
>>3013662
>inb4'iwasonlypretendingtoberetarded'

Slavery and nazism = atrocities towards humans

The only way we'll ever view meat eating as murder is when the categorical distinction between humans and animals breaks down.

>>3013494

>packet of ham or a beef burger
Do you mean "a ham or a packet of beef burgers" you cunt?

/lit/ pls

>>3013747
Have you never seen a packet of ham slices, you cunt?

Not to worry, I've already paid for it by it giving me cancer and taking away my ability to procreate.

With ease, and with full knowledge that the liquidation of the bourgeoisie as a class will involve the substantial physical liquidation of individual bourgeois.

I raise rabbits in my garage. I have four pair of breeding stock.

I kill at least one a day. Sometimes two, if I have company.

I make clothing out of their skin. It keeps me warm in the winter months.

>>3013771
Eating Animals was a pretty good book tho

there's also a book out about the sexual politics of meat if we want to throw in feminism too

Why the fuck is this on /lit/?

>>3013850
You need to look into rabbit famine—rabbit meat alone can't provide enough nutrients in your meat category and you'll starve.

>>3013877
Good work, but consider substituting cow fat for butter because it is crueler. Also live crab for legumes because this kills the crab.

>>3013871

Rabbit meat lacks in one thing: fat.


I get plenty of fat from legumes and butter.

>>3013880

You dip the crab into the boiling butter before you cut its face off.

This doesn't kill it but gives it a nice flavor.

who is contributing into this on lit is sick, why the fuck is this on lit?

>>3013920
OP's thread starter was pure literature, are you nuts?

>>3013920

Regular Show > Adventure Time

Actually people will look at meat eaters as bad because it's unhealthy. People will still eat meat on rare occasions, but not because we care about the lives of beings that don't even have consciousness, but because we care about our own health

VIDF pls go.

>>3013620
Not him but there's nothing immoral about killing animals. They don't have higher-order consciousness that humans have, which is the reason it's wrong to kill humans but ok to abort fetuses.

The only exception are maybe dolphins and chimps, that's it.

Slaughtering animals is completely fine. You probably have pets or something or think animals have thought because you're in a 6 year old mentality from Disney films, but really, they don't. That's science and common sense. You just have an attachment to pets like a child has an attachment to a stuffed animal. You wouldn't tear apart her doll because it would upset her, not because the doll has some sort of moral standing to it

>>3014992
and how do you suspect this change in individual attitudes to health will come about so dramatically?

>>3015322
It's already starting. As silly as it sounds, the internet and technology is bringing about a sort of cleansing and growth of the collective consciousness of humanity. Burger King has a salad on their bags, McDonald's menus all show calories and the advertise their low fat healthy salad shit now

>>3015327
>collective consciousness

Who cares, lab grown manufacturted meat/protein/whatever they're gonna call it isn't available yet. We're just making the most of what we have.

In 100 years they're also gonna laugh at the fact we used a porcelin bowl with absolutely no electronics at all for a toilet like cavemen.

Who cares, everything we do is gonna seem retarded in hindsight. Look at what I'm doing now, I'm using whats basically an electronic version of a typewriter to write this instead of thinking words and seeing them appear onscreen.

>>3015341
>screen
>not optical implant
>2045

Stay poor

>>3015344
>implant
>he's actually putting stuff into his body. Like, electronics and wires
lolplebe

Right.

>>3015330
Ok.

>>3013494
Who says people look back? And what is 'looking back'? The present is constantly re-inventing the past, projecting its own views on it. Anthropocentrism has waned lately but it will return and this animal rights stuff will never prevail. Political and ethical concern for the welfare and rights of animals goes back to ancient India. It still hasn't, and never will triumph, so long as humans remain human.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with eating animals - it's a culturally constructed good or bad action. These gastronomic sentiments are fickle, and change with the borders. With the rise of McDonalds etc, the consumption of meat is only increasing, not decreasing, and there's no sign of any wane at all. Veganism is irrational prejudices retrospectively justified with the lie of rationality, like Theology.

wtf is this shit doing here?

anyway, i sleep the same way you do, feeling better than others ignoring how my perception has been shaped and justifying it with the membership to the collectivity of my "choice" and the ritual we practice to perpetuate it.

>>3015349

>2045
>not being a cyborg

stay mortal faggot

>>3015349
enjoy being physically and intellectually inferior to the rest of the advanced transhumanist beings

also enjoy your short lifespan

>>3015349
lel look at this organic faggot

>>3013590
Well, if the meat was vat-grown, I would have no problems whatsoever. It would probably be the best meat ever too!

>>3015318
>The only exception are maybe dolphins and chimps, that's it.
And other cetaceans and crows, and a shitload of other animals with self-awareness, culture, vocalized language.

>>3015405
Well steak and chicken is fine.

One of my favorite is watching these kind of people getting upset at nature documentaries which show animals killing other animals.

>>3015327
Salads on menus of fast food mega-chains, ---> sign of the rise of veganism and death of omnivorism.

I love partisan ethical nutjobs like vegans.

>>3013494
naw man

>Implying slavery was wrong and there are no racial differenes
>Implying Hitler wasn't misunderstood

ishig OP

>>3015449
>not using science to justify ethnic differences
>thinking people can be neatly categorized into continental races

A hundred years from now, I will stop eating meat. Deal? Deal.

>>3015359
>There is nothing intrinsically wrong with eating animals - it's a culturally constructed good or bad action.

You could say the same for slavery and genocide.

>>3015493
You could say the same about wearing flip-flops. Your point?

>2012
>still debating animal rights

Because food corporations and the media have convinced me that its entirely natural so they can continue to make fat stacks off of fat people.

Besides, packaging and advertisement means I don't consider meat to be an animal when I'm cooking or biting into it. It's just a product. I don't think about where it comes from.

>>3015552
Fucking hell, that kid looks a mess.

>>3015562
>kid

>>3015541
Are those peppers at the bottom?

Vegans and vegetarians are incredibly try hard. They only do it to prove to themselves and others that they are humanist, progressive individuals. It's wholly self centered.
Participating in any sort of production or consumerism puts you at guilt for a lot of people's oppression, but vegans make animals their cause simply because they are cute. Much cuter than some dirty prejudiced factory worker halfway across the world at least.

>>3015580
You obviously know all the vegetarians and vegans in the world personally.

>>3015581

facepalm.jpg

>>3015580
>Vegans and vegetarians are incredibly try hard. They only do it to prove to themselves and others that they are humanist, progressive individuals. It's wholly self centered.

Oh look, a mind reader.

>>3015580
Why do you feel a sentient animal's life is worth less than a human's? They experience pain and suffering just the same as we do.

>>3015596
is he wrong?

>>3015580
epic trick 11/9 XDDD

For the record, most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegetarian. I avoid telling people because I'm afraid they'll be like you.

>>3015603
Yes. And he's a cunt, too.

>>3015580

>animal rights terrorists
>humanist

>>3015580
>Human rights campaigners are incredibly try hard. They only do it to prove to themselves and others that they are humanist, progressive individuals. It's wholly self centered.

>>3013776

Can't you recognize a fat joke when you see one? You cunt

>>3015603
Yes. I know a couple of people who just don't like the taste. In India there are vast numbers of people who don't eat meat for spiritual reasons. Generalizing on this scale bears witness to immense ignorance.

>>3015619
of course he ignorant, all meat eaters are.

>>3015626
I eat meat, but that doesn't mean I bash vegetarians at any opportunity. Because that would be childish and uncalled for.

it isnt necessarily eating meat that is unethical, thats probably just part of nature. but mass production of meat, unnecessarily killing thousands of animals and making their lives hell just to throw away 50% of the meat whilst people elsewhere die of starvation.

a farmer killing an old cow or a couple of pigs a year to feed his family and make some money on the market probably won't hurt too many people

one hundred years from now, people will look back at crush-insect-with-footers in much the same way as we look back at slavers and nazis.

every time you step on bugs while walking, you are sponsoring atrocities. how do you sleep at night?

>>3015723
There are roughly 50 - 500 million living sperm per ejaculation. Right now there is a sock in my washing basket that is laying in testament to my most recent act of orgasmic genocide.

The people one hundred years from now should read some Darwin

>>3015723
Insects aren't sentient. Pigs, cows, and even chickens are.

Seriously, I am not opposed to meat-eating, but the way we farm animals at the moment is absolutely atrocious. The sum-total of pain and suffering inflicted during one day on any given chicken farm is tantamount to the Holocaust times ten, and 99% of people are apparently okay with this. Animal rights is the new civil rights. Our moral sensibilities have been overhauled in the past and they will be again.

>>3015770

>equating the Holocaust with a chicken farm
Oh boy, with people like you freely running around the human race sure has some tough times ahead of it

reported

how can I hide a thread?

>>3015770
>Insects aren't sentient.
>mfw

>Meat-eaters
Not the problem.
>Factory farms
The problem.

>>3015770

1. What does 'sentience', whatever that is, have to do with anything??

2. The line you drew -- killing insects is OK, killing chickens isn't -- is completely arbitrary and meaningless.

3. The Holocaust wasn't bad because it inflicted pain. (Whoever said that pain is bad in the first place??)

>>3015863
>>3015889
He must've meant sapient I suppose.

>>3015909
> He must've meant sapient I suppose.

What does 'sapience' have to do with anything anyways?? What is 'sapience'? The ability to solve complex problems? Then the computers have us beat at that game. Do you feel guilty for killing your old smartphone?

with a full stomach fag.

>>3015866
right, nobody should take responsibility for their actions. i don't actually have an ethical problem with meat eaters, but you're retarded if you think that factory farms aren't entirely enabled and held up by meat eaters.

>>3015919
factory farms are held up by government subsidy

>>3015863
>>3015889
Insects do not feel pain.

>>3015968
>implying you know
>implying you can't have congenital insensitivity to pain and be sentient

You do realise that the pig only exists in it's modern form because of breeding for consumption right?
If they didn't taste so nice and weren't so easy to control the pig would have died out around the middle ages because they're fucking pussies in the wild

>>3015968
>Insects do not feel pain.

Ever stepped on one and not finished the job properly?
Looks remarkably like 'pain' to me.

>>3016015
Looks remarkably like they're trying to move after you've crushed half of their body, rather.
Doesn't mean they feel pain, go epic troll /sci/ and stop bumping this shit.

>>3015911
>What is 'sapience'?
Read Wikipedia.

>>3016037
>>3015968
They have a nervous system.

Anons, please do not reply any more to the faggot so we can laugh at him samefag his own thread.

>>3016037

They skittle away behind the nearest object and cower in fear.

And when you inflict pain on an animal or human? (lets assume fighting back is out of the question)

What you call pain is just a more evolved form of behavior found in invertebrates.
You acknowledge that animals are superior to insects but you won't acknowledge that humans are superior to animals?

>>3013494
When an acceptable meat substitute exists I will no longer eat meat.

I would be all for such a thing, farming for meat is terribly inefficient, our resources could be better spent producing greater food volume without traditional animal farming.

That said, eating meat allowed our species to develop intellectually, giving us more free time to do things like write and read books (bam, /lit/ relevant). If we didn’t eat meat we would never have developed to the point where you have enough free time to spout ignorant moral delusions on the internet.

Fuck your moral indignation. Reactionaries like you prevent us from adopting better production methods (GM IS BAD OK) and better energy sources (because nuclear is so much worse than coal/gas power amirite).

>>3015770
As someone that grew up on a dairy farm I love people like you.

We once had a cow down with calving paralysis (bull we had killed like 5 cows because he produced monster calves, then we ate him).

Anyway this hippie couple that lived up the road called the RSPCA because this cow was down for a week and visible from the road. Assholes came around acting all righteous and being cunts in general. During all this we had been putting hours each day feeding watering and even medicating this animal trying to get it up again.

Few days after RSPCA incident same couple were taking pictures of the cow from the road, my grandfather grabbed his gun, got on the quadbike, rode up to the cow and shot it in the fucking face right in front of these hippies. I could not laugh hard enough.

>>3015428
I'm not a vegan, I eat meat every day. That wasn't even my point, fucktard. People eating healthier doesn't mean everyone is going to stop eating meat completely.

>>3015518
There is no morality, etc, being an edgy as fuck nihilist is the only reality

>>3016137
>Few days after RSPCA incident same couple were taking pictures of the cow from the road, my grandfather grabbed his gun, got on the quadbike, rode up to the cow and shot it in the fucking face right in front of these hippies. I could not laugh hard enough.
That's awesome.

>>3015889
Sentience is everything. Consciousness, or self-awareness, and identity, is what "you" are. It's what separates you from a chicken. "You" are a product of your brain. Cows don't have this. They don't have an identity or language and aren't part of our higher-order level of consciousness, so slaughtering them is perfectly fine. Only animals that are on our level like whales and a few other species can be considered to have value and moral implications to their lives.


Just go get a good steak anon, you know you want to.

>>3016351

Sentience doesn't imply self-awareness.
A cow is sentient.
A whale or an elephant and some of the other lads in the animal kingdom are self-aware, and pretty darn intelligent relative to a fucking cow.
That's fine, I think I can do without eating whale (maybe) or chimp or magpie.

>>3016363
Yes you're right. I guess then self-aware beings can be considered immoral to kill.

>>3016369
I think the only debate is do we draw the line there or do we draw it firmly below humans and anything else is fair game.

Personally I think something like an elephant is sufficiently 'human' enough to qualify for a different class, one above run-of-the-mill 'stupid' animals but still below humans, it would be silly to save the life of an elephant at the expense of a human life for example.

Cats and dogs (and some other pets too I guess) are interesting though.

>>3016337
Yeah, and Nero was a hero.

>>3016381
We don't eat elephants and dolphins (Most of the time) because they are capable of higher thought and self-awareness.

We don't eat cats and dogs (Apart from the Asians) because they worked and helped us for thousands of years and us taking care of them is a sort of "Thank you" to their species for all the help they've given us.

If I'm hungry I'll still eat them, I'll just look for something else first.

>>3016381
If we're ranking these creatures according to their intelligence, does that make an intelligent human's life worth more than a less intelligent one's? Chinese people (taken as a whole) score higher in all intelligence tests than black people -- does that mean their lives are worth more?

>>3016403
They didn't say intelligence, though, they said self-awareness, and only in application to a species.

And also there are those who would say that means their lives are worth more.

>>3016405
self-awareness comes with intellect. schopenhauer has something to say on this matter, i believe. says something along the lines of smarter individuals being "more alive", yet he goes on to conclude that animals should not be treated the way they are. he says that universal compassion is the only guarantee of morality.

self-awareness is a shitty gauge of value, rather all creatures with the ability to perceive oppression and suffering should be treated with equal dignity and consideration.

>>3016405
"species" is as arbitrary a cut-off point as "race".

>>3016413

Chickens sure as shit can't perceive 'oppression'
>inb4 Chicken Run

What is suffering?
Why is the suffering of animals different from the behaviour of insects when subjected to 'oppression'?

>>3016415
One can breed with the other and congregate in civilizations.

Not so with the other.

>>3016413
>self-awareness is a shitty gauge of value, rather all creatures with the ability to perceive oppression and suffering should be treated with equal dignity and consideration.

This is valid, I can agree with this. Would it be ethical if we can scoot around their perception of oppression and suffering by killing them behind their backs?

>>3016419
insects don't feel pain, as has already been stated. they do not posses nocireceptors. chickens do.

>>3016422
>One can breed with the other and congregate in civilizations.

yes, that is the (rough) definition of a species, just as race has its own taxonomical definition. the question is why should sentient beings be afforded any more or less rights according to how genetically similar they are to you. whether or not they can be bred with us is just as irrelevant to the morality of mistreating them as skin colour is.

>>3016426
Ever swat a fly?

>>3016441
mate, you're scientifically wrong. leave it, yeah?

>>3016443
Some types of flies don't exhibit nociceptive behaviour then? Is that what you're saying?

>>3016432
I was sort of implying that one species would be entirely alien to another, where races of one species can relate to each other in major ways. Or maybe not and probably not, I'm no anthropologist. Because I don't want there to be an absolute dichotomy between sentience and non-sentience based on whether they could have any sort of perception or not, I'd put a decent cut-off point at species, as I can be almost completely certain that something with a similar biological makeup as me will have the same level of perception as me.

Of course, we can't avoid the paradox of the heap, and there are ambiguities when you consider the mentally ill, and chimpanzees (or animals with sentient behaviors that we can detect).

Also I just realized I'm not actually arguing something I'd have liked to argue, or even something I agree with, I'd only just wanted to point out a poor counter point.

>>3016470
trying to imply*

>>3016443
Suddenly gone quiet huh Darwin?

http://www.nature.com/protocolexchange/protocols/2437/publications/1386
http://dels-old.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/52_2/PDFs/v5202Elwood.pdf
http://dels-old.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/52_2/PDFs/v5202Crook.pdf