/lit/ - Literature

tell him to take acid. that will give him more of a will to live than any inspirational words.

>>2977344
what a stupid idea fuck you

>>2977355
actually not really. just because HST shot himself doesn't mean you can deride the drug as a device of suicide. The nature of the drug is extremely spiritual. I can't express to you my appreciation of life after experiencing this drug

>>2977344
Mescaline would be better. He will be able to evaluate his life without the potential for a bad trip.

>>2977341
>ad many of your posts and threads regarding the topic of the goodness/badness of life/death and I think my views have many parallels. However this isn't something that I'm finding solace in. You posted on a couple of my previous threads. Right now I am looking for a reason to continue existing. In one of your posts you answered the question by comparing doing something enjoyable to the act of suicide, and for you, you'd rather do something enjoyable. Is this really what your continued existence comes down to? Or is there more to it. Frankly, if this is all there is to it, then it seems that existence in itself is worthless, no better or worse than death. How can you live a normal life this way?

Death is inevitable. Why would one, anyone, deny themselves to live, experience, love, fear, hatred and disappointment, to fear the consequence of the feeling of telling someone you hate and love them for something they will experience anyway? Be proud of the fact that you couraged a suffering that no one else in mankind endured. That no one else could understand.

>>2977344
>>2977355
>>2977356
>>2977357
>Have a question in your life?
>DO DRUGS XDDDDDDDDDDDD Y U NO HIGH PUSSSY LOLOLOL DRUGGSSS SAVE LIVES

Every fucking time

>>2977366
shitty post fuck off

>>2977370
exactly

no more of you cunts suggest drugs please

I need legit advice not "bro dmt bro karma gotta become one we are stardust bro fucking stardust alan watts makes me cum heuhue"

I was once 15 years old and into Castaneda and McKenna too. It's pretty shit to just advice people to do loads of hallucinogens though. I know people who went mad because of that shit. Inducing psychosis in yourself is not something to be taken lightly.

OP, tell him that the quest for meaning was a mistake from the beginning and that feeling good is all there is to find. If he isn't willing to strive for pleasure there isn't much left. All religious and spiritual and idealist people are hedonist by a dishonest detour as well. He needs to readjust his perspective.

>>2977341
When someone achieves happiness, they momentarily forget all the suffering they've been through and any feelings of worthlessness they've had/have. I live for these blissful moments. The only reason to stop living is if you truly believe that you'll never achieve happiness again. I find it difficult to believe that someone with what could be 80 years left could think that.

That's my personal view on suicide. Of course people who are constantly suffering mentally or physically don't apply.

>>2977366
I really have nothing to object against this. I doesn't matter if life is suffering or happiness, you only get one shot at it.

>>2977386
>quest for meaning was a mistake from the beginning and that feeling good is all there is to find. If he isn't willing to strive for pleasure there isn't much left.

no I can't tell him this he'll kill himself

>>2977387
>guy says hedonsim isn't enough

your advice is to tell him to live for hedonism?

get out of my thread you disgusting cunt

>>2977392
Maybe you can pull the reverse hedonism of Buddhism or something. I wouldn't know what else without lying to him.

You might speak of alternatives within is mode of life though. Often the problem isn't really as philosophical as it seems but also a matter of circumstances and the physical aspect. I've always felt there are possibly pleasant places to visit before I end myself. Go into a monastery or being a drunk on welfare who fucks hookers or something. There's always something left to try.

>>2977386
I am interested in you tell me about yourself? I am really into mckenna and I lived most of my adolescence engrossing myself in his work. Cultivating psilocybin and partaking in extractions of DMT from MHRB in massive quantity, I have spent years trying to understand the ineffability these drugs cause people to experience. I know its just a drug but every time I take it.. It seems like utter perfection.
As someone who seems to have gone through it I would like your advice.

Have you considered recommending a shamanic retreat? There are plenty of Ayahuasca and Ibogane centres in South America, and even an MDMA facility in Canada. They deal with suicidals and depressives on a regular basis, and are probably the best thing after conventional therapy. Just give this a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNdU-HTsv0Q&feature=relmfu

>>2977398
The guy thinks hedonism isn't enough because he compares it with angels sucking his dick forever in a a righteous transcedental manner. His problem is that he takes his expectations from fantasy, not from reality. Once you cure the unrealistic expectations your perspective changes.

>>2977410
OP really doesn't like drugs for some reason

>>2977406
>there's always something left to try

alright you clearly don't understand how depression works, go back from whence you came you disease ridden wench

>>2977409
>*********************************EVERYBODY LISTEN I AM A DRUG USER PLEASE LET ME TALK ABOUT
DR
UG***************************************************

>YEAH LOLOLOL FUCK DEAD DOG EVERY DAY I AM PERFECTLY AMAZING BEYON DLIE BEYOND DEATH ZARDOZZZ ZARDZOZZ ZARDOZZ ZARDOZZ

>SECKRIT DRUG HUSSLING BOARD #Highthoughts #deepstoned

>>2977341
if life equals death, why would he kill himself?
finding meaning in life is hard (or impossible, see>>2977386) but is there more meaning in death?

also read tell him to read camus, that worked for me.

>>2977409
>from MHRB in

I always get MHRB (Mimosa hostillis root bark), and HBWR (Hawaiin baby woodrose) mixed up.

>>2977412
> he compares it with angels sucking his dick forever in a a righteous transcedental manner.

no he doesn't do that at all.

he doesn't think it's enough because he doesn't care about his mental state

he needs something concrete and permanent to live for but all that exists is experiential flux

fuck life brb killing self as well

>>2977418
I doubt you are the person I responded to. You seem too retarded I wasn't asking about drugs. I am asking him to tell him about himself and how he arrived at the conclusion that there was false spirituality in psychedelics. Just because I am a drug user doesn't mean you can act like this.

>>2977418
Son, you need to chill out. Have you considered medical marijuana?

>>2977409
I never got into the experimentation part myself because I was busy going half insane as it was already. But there's plenty of well adjusted happy folk who had their life ruined by psychedelics. It's naive to present as an cure all solution to psychological problems. I won't deny it has it's uses in a controlled environment, but suggesting suicidal people just drop a bunch of acid and will discover the meaning of life? Nope.

There's not much advice to be had from me other than "don't do things that make you want to kill yourself" and "do things that make you feel good".

>>2977423
I had the worst experience inside a home depot because of these.

>>2977421
no fuck cums I hate cums hes such a stupid cunt

>>2977427
LIBERRRTYYYY CAN'T STOP MEEE I"m wilddddddddddddddd AND living freee MONEY MONEY make some money METH METH smoke smoke cracdk
DOPE ON THE SIDE WORLD WIDE
TRANSCEND HUMANITY GET HIGH CYBER PUNK SMOKING CRACK PIPE 4 LYFE

>>2977426
That's what I meant. He wants something from life other than this flux. I mentioned "angels sucking his dick forever in a a righteous transcedental manner", but what I meant is of course any ideal or concept that tries to transcend this basic reality. Only by successful self-deceit (as most do) or acceptance of life as it is will lead to some form of enjoyment. Your friend is obviously incapable of the first, so he will have to come to terms with it and enjoy it as it is or check out. Those are really the only options.

I believe Camus made a distinction of this kind as well. Either kill yourself, flee into religion or deal with the absurd.

>>2977433
The first time I tried HBwoodrose I was about 13, and made the mistake of thinking something legal would be a total waste of time. 25 seeds and a few hours later I was truly down the rabbit hole, and thought I had gone insane.

>>2977436
Is this how 'straight edgers' act? Wow, and there was me thinking they had to maintain a self-righteous façade of superiority, but in reality they just behave like children.

>>2977432
Insanity is enough of a drug as is. I am not saying psychedelics are the best way to treat depression I am just saying it treated mine in a time of extreme need.
Are you an atheist?

>>2977417
I've been depressed for half of my life, son. Still I haven't killed myself yet, and neither have you. So we must have both found something to be worth living for, either consciously or intuitively. While I've been suicidal a lot, I always tend to just strip away a single layer of life and take it from there. For example, life is shit, I can't handle it, might as well stop going to University. Then stop working. Then stop being useful at all. Et cetera. I haven't hit bottom yet, and I think it's sensible to reserve death for when I've hit bottom. As long as I keep dismissing bullshit I think I'll manage for now.

>>2977448 LOL
LOL COCKSUCKER GROW SOME BALLS LSD ERRYDAY TIME 2 GIT HIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH LIKE A PANDA FUCK 420 HIGH TIMES

I CAN SEE FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER XDDDD CAN U SEE MY DICK 4 NOW SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSUCCCKCKKKKKKKKKKINGGGG DOOWNN THE CRACCCKK 420 RYTHMN BETTER THJAN SEX LE REDDIT SMOKE XD /420chan/ #POSTTHISIFURHIGH

>>2977448
yeah you can feel the intellect breathing off that guy

>>2977449
Yes, but I've tried not to be. I've got a severe case of nihilism I guess.

>>2977440
> will lead to some form of enjoyment

but he doesn't care about enjoyment

why aren't you grasping thing?

i'll put it simply:

>what should one care about besides ones own enjoyment?

>>2977452
>nd I think it's sensible to reserve death for when I've hit bottom.

Why? Me and the guy both understand that death isn't a bad thing.

>>2977457
And you're a fucking twat get the hell out. This is /lit/, we motherfucking discuss books and recommend books if you don't like fucking discussing books go back to gaia you fucker we don't need your shit

>>2977458
yeah its fun to think of this world in a more abstract sense every once in a while

>>2977341
Pretty much anything you say he could respond with "Lolmeaningless"

tell him to do it lol XD

>>2977465
This is a board for people with a shared interest in books to hang out. We can talk about anything here, but are united by a shared adoration of the written word.

>>2977465
alright you fucking gestapo shouldn't you be staring awkwardly at girls on the bus anyway?

>>2977468
b-but, I inb4'd

y u so men ;_;

>>2977465
>tfw this thread was never even about books

>>2977460
Well, there's sneaky backroads towards enjoyment. Like idealism and religion and such. Praising God to make yourself feel good. Doing good works to make yourself feel good. Overcoming yourself and becoming Übermenschlich to make yourself feel good.

If enjoyment is not enough, as an idea, you need to forget you do things for your enjoyment and engage in some form of idealism by which you can strive to feel good without being concious of it. So I would suggest some form of mysticism or spirituality for this guy and hope that he forgets that he's in it for himself so that he can take it easy and enjoy himself without being confronted with the concept of "merely enjoying himself". To take Zhuangzi out of context:

The right way to go easy is to forget the right way, and forget that the going is easy.

>>2977477
it was vaguely philosophical

last I checked this was /phil/

>>2977464
I'm not saying it's wrong to off yourself sooner. It's just that I'd rather fuck about for a while first. Life is often not enjoyable but I do find it interesting.

>>2977483
I am just trying to make a point. This guy is acting ridiculous because people have miscellaneous discussions on every board.

>>2977468
This is a good point. You just can't really conceptually persuade a depressed person into appreciating life.

>>2977487
y tho

I mean really, is that all life is about? Enjoyment?

You might as well not have lived. Imagine that life consists of flashing into existence for a 10 second long orgasm then you flash out of existence. I mean, what is the point? it might as well not have happened. That's what you guys seem to be saying, except this life is 80 years and full of suffering.

>>2977503
Orgasms and the like aren't the only pleasure of course. Admiring a flower is pleasure. Watching a baby laugh is pleasure. Feeling the grace of God is pleasure.

What else would there be to live for but good feelings? I've yet to encounter something transcedental that doesn't ring hollow besides as some sneaky form of hedonism.

>>2977503
>life is 80 years
judging by shit today people born in the 90's will most likely live to 140 or some shit. doesn't life expectancy go up all the time?

>>2977506
I dunno, truth, knowledge, beauty?

>>2977515
You like them because they make you feel good, right?

I've never met anyone who did anything without having somehow the intention to make himself feel good.

>>2977506
>Feeling the grace of God is pleasure.

>>2977548
I'm not religious by any means, but I met plenty a Christian who feels pretty good doing his whole religious thing.

>>2977557
How the hell do you climb up to absurdism without continuously slipping back down?

>>2977508
There's no way to accurately predict life expectancy for someone born 20 years ago. 80 years is just the most conservative guess.

>>2977557
what is the base line?

>>2977567
Slipping back down is part of it. Absurdism is a continually climbing and slipping. Do you even Sisyphus?

<--

>>2977578
Do you even Sisyphus?

Of course, that was why my... Oh sorry captain America, British Humour.

>>2977615
Apologies, I was in conversing with Americans mode.

>>2977578
bro you don't even grasp the basic concept of absurdism

one *must* imagine sysiphus happy. camus is commanding us

>>2977573

There's only one way to find out.

>>2977604

>>2977622
Well fuck him and his tuberculosis north african shitty socialist humanism is the answer to nihilism le rebel face dot kem

>>2977557

ftfy lel

>>2977650
>get a job and a mortgage and family and be a real man
>1050's folk deontology

Shiiiiiiiigidiggy.

>>2977657
*1950's

It's about finding something you care about. You already probably care about something but you need to care about doing something with your life. Purpose isn't something external, true, but you can find purpose. Meaning needs not be eternal or transcendental. Meaning is contingent and finite, but so are you, so what's the big deal? People want some external or ultimate purpose or value like you can't have value unless the value of a thing goes beyond humanity and exists independently of men. Well it won't. Religion may tell you otherwise and perhaps its when young men become disillusioned with religion that they become disillusioned with being itself. You just need to readjust your expectations and realize that intrinsic, ultimate meaning wouldn't even change things that much.

>>2977657
>implying I said any of that

adulthood is only a short climb away - hang in there!

>>2977661
>Meaning is contingent and finite

Does this apply to everything you wrote in your post as well?

>>2977661
I understand your point, but it's hard to state some form of meaning for yourself that doesn't collapse after a while. Unless you stop thinking.

>>2977698
Define adulthood then and explain how it is beyond the whole bunch of sceptic, existential and nihilist questioning.

Hey man how's it. OK firstly you sound borderline suicidally depressed so would reccomend you go to the doctor and get yourself on some antidepressants. They aren't going to give you a reason to live or anything philosophical like that, but they should at least make you feel somewhat better. Myself I take venlafaxine, quietiapine, and klonopins for depression/anxiety and they definitely help. You don't feel so exhausted all the time and they take away a lot of the body aches and they bring back some interest in the world around you. I think that's what makes people happy; being interested in the world around them. I mean, think about how excited and happy children get over the smallest things like sweets and going to the beach etc. It's because it interests them/feels very significant, which is a feeling that I'm guessing you lack. A lot of the time depressed people don't know how depressed they are. This happened to me and I almost ended up docking myself but decided to get help and now I do feel a lot better physically/emotionally. The philosophical issues are still there of course, but they don't feel so pressing. Also try to eat healthy/exercise/see friends and love ones all the shit you're supposed to do when you're depressed bla bla I'm sure you know all of this. So yeah with that horrible wall of text out of the way:

[quote=elgruaro]Right now I am looking for a reason to continue existing.[/quote]

Why is that? I wrote this in one of your threads: "Living is just something which happens by itself when you're not dead. So you don't need a reason to live (as it happens anyway, regardless of your reasons), you only need a reason to die."

>>2977781
Basically what I'm saying is life doesn't question you, it doesn't demand that you justify your continued existence to it. I mean, life is just something that basically happens by itself, all you've got to do is eat sometimes and avoid freezing to death and that's about it. You don't get trialled everyday by the life police who'll kill you if your reason for existing isn't good enough ha.

So yeah fuck a reason, forget about it you don't need one. You don't have to justify your existence to yourself or anyone else. Because regardless of whatever justification you come up with it doesn't matter. Life just happens, it doesn't give one fuck about your justifications or lack thereof.

I think the question you're really asking here is something like "why should I endure this suffering?" "I'm looking for a reason to endure this suffering". I mean if this is really what you're asking then I think you've got a huge disparity here between you devaluing negative experiences/suffering, but then on the other hand you don't value positive experiences/pleasure/happiness. I mean, on the one hand you care about your own suffering to the point where it effects you so much that you're considering ending your own life but then on the other hand you say things like:

>>2977783
>[quote=elgruaro]Frankly, if (enjoyable experiences) is all there is to it, then it seems that existence in itself is worthless, no better or worse than death. [/quote]

which suggest that you don't value positive experiences at all. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Both suffering and happiness are feelings. They are something which are felt. And you seem to be saying something like "happiness and feelings are worthless it's not worth seeking or enduring it's meaningless bla bla it's just a fleeting feeling it means nothing what is the point". But then you're suffering (feeling) right now and it's effecting you, it's having a meaningful effect on your existence to the point where the way you feel is causing you to consider ending your life.

So in essence what you're saying is "I don't care about how I feel", but then your actions belie your words in that you do care about avoiding suffering (through suicide) which is a feeling. So yeah I'm just trying to point out a disparity between your values. I mean you don't value or want to seek suffering (who does?) but then you also don't value happiness (because it's just a worthless meaningless feeling right?), but so is suffering. It's just another worthless meaningless feeling. Obviously you think suffering is a meaningful feeling because it's having such a big effect on you, so why don't you think happiness is meaningful feeling? They're both feelings, why give meaning to one and not the other?

>>2977786
This is called 'negative bias' or some shit and it's very typical of depressive thinking.

>[quote=elgruaro]In one of your posts you answered the question by comparing doing something enjoyable to the act of suicide, and for you, you'd rather do something enjoyable. Is this really what your continued existence comes down to? Or is there more to it.[/quote]

Nah I think you missed the point. My continued existence really doesn't come down to anything. I mean here I sit typing away and life is just happening, I'm not justifying it or giving reasons for it. I don't have a grand overreaching reason for my life and I don't need one. You're looking for a reason when you don't need one. Just give up the search, there's no need for it.

What I was saying with the suicide thing was that really the act of suicide is probably a pretty terrible thing to go through and I'd really rather avoid the act if I can (i.e; self-inflicting violent harm toward my own body is something I'd like to avoid). And that's basically it. Suicide isn't as constantly on my mind as it used to be (because of the pills) I mean most people don't go around thinking "why not suicide why not do it", there thinking is probably alond the lines (when asked why the haven't killed themselves) would be "why do it? why suicide?"

So yeah I hope somewhere in this huge rant I gave you something to think about. Just remember that shit happens life goes on, no need to take it all so seriously.

Ye done goofed we know who he is now, we will expose you and he will kill himself because you put his personal matters on 4chan.

>>2977804
true

Hey man how's it. OK firstly you sound borderline suicidally depressed so would reccomend you go to the doctor and get yourself on some antidepressants. They aren't going to give you a reason to live or anything philosophical like that, but they should at least make you feel somewhat better. Myself I take venlafaxine, quietiapine, and klonopins for depression/anxiety and they definitely help. You don't feel so exhausted all the time and they take away a lot of the body aches and they bring back some interest in the world around you. I think that's what makes people happy; being interested in the world around them. I mean, think about how excited and happy children get over the smallest things like sweets and going to the beach etc. It's because it interests them/feels very significant, which is a feeling that I'm guessing you lack. A lot of the time depressed people don't know how depressed they are. This happened to me and I almost ended up docking myself but decided to get help and now I do feel a lot better physically/emotionally. The philosophical issues are still there of course, but they don't feel so pressing. Also try to eat healthy/exercise/see friends and love ones all the shit you're supposed to do when you're depressed bla bla I'm sure you know all of this. So yeah with that horrible wall of text out of the way:

Is the statement that life is meaningless a meaningful statement?

Once your friend can answer that, only then will he know what to do.

But you want to know what I really think? I think instead of just sitting down, rationalizing, imagining intellectual discourse and just mere practicing cerebral masturbation I suggest that you immerse and expose yourself to real experience, participate in existence, be involved in the mass movement. “Existence is meaningless,” you say, but you certainly have only but experienced 2% of it – Go out and see the world, feel with the masses, get a life. You are how you life – You are bored because you are boring, if you will; you feel meaningless because you act without purpose. Then, after then can you only really declare your view of existence as being “meaningless” with heartfelt conviction and not just mere intellectual poseurism.

>>2977822
[quote=nigger###]Right now I am looking for a reason to continue existing.[/quote]

Why is that? I wrote this in one of your threads: "quote removed motherfuckers."

Basically what I'm saying is life doesn't question you, it doesn't demand that you justify your continued existence to it. I mean, life is just something that basically happens by itself, all you've got to do is eat sometimes and avoid freezing to death and that's about it. You don't get trialled everyday by the life police who'll kill you if your reason for existing isn't good enough ha.

So yeah fuck a reason, forget about it you don't need one. You don't have to justify your existence to yourself or anyone else. Because regardless of whatever justification you come up with it doesn't matter. Life just happens, it doesn't give one fuck about your justifications or lack thereof.

I think the question you're really asking here is something like "why should I endure this suffering?" "I'm looking for a reason to endure this suffering". I mean if this is really what you're asking then I think you've got a huge disparity here between you devaluing negative experiences/suffering, but then on the other hand you don't value positive experiences/pleasure/happiness. I mean, on the one hand you care about your own suffering to the point where it effects you so much that you're considering ending your own life but then on the other hand you say things like:

>>2977503
>Imagine that life consists of flashing into existence for a 10 second long orgasm then you flash out of existence.
I don't exactly know why I laughed out loud at that.

>>2977826
[quote=niggaaarniggar]Frankly, if (enjoyable experiences) is all there is to it, then it seems that existence in itself is worthless, no better or worse than death. [/quote]

which suggest that you don't value positive experiences at all. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Both suffering and happiness are feelings. They are something which are felt. And you seem to be saying something like "happiness and feelings are worthless it's not worth seeking or enduring it's meaningless bla bla it's just a fleeting feeling it means nothing what is the point". But then you're suffering (feeling) right now and it's effecting you, it's having a meaningful effect on your existence to the point where the way you feel is causing you to consider ending your life.

So in essence what you're saying is "I don't care about how I feel", but then your actions belie your words in that you do care about avoiding suffering (through suicide) which is a feeling. So yeah I'm just trying to point out a disparity between your values. I mean you don't value or want to seek suffering (who does?) but then you also don't value happiness (because it's just a worthless meaningless feeling right?), but so is suffering. It's just another worthless meaningless feeling. Obviously you think suffering is a meaningful feeling because it's having such a big effect on you, so why don't you think happiness is meaningful feeling? They're both feelings, why give meaning to one and not the other?

This is called 'negative bias' or some shit and it's very typical of depressive thinking.

>>2977829
[quote=kill yourself XD]In one of your posts you answered the question by comparing doing something enjoyable to the act of suicide, and for you, you'd rather do something enjoyable. Is this really what your continued existence comes down to? Or is there more to it.[/quote]

Nah I think you missed the point. My continued existence really doesn't come down to anything. I mean here I sit typing away and life is just happening, I'm not justifying it or giving reasons for it. I don't have a grand overreaching reason for my life and I don't need one. You're looking for a reason when you don't need one. Just give up the search, there's no need for it.

What I was saying with the suicide thing was that really the act of suicide is probably a pretty terrible thing to go through and I'd really rather avoid the act if I can (i.e; self-inflicting violent harm toward my own body is something I'd like to avoid). And that's basically it. Suicide isn't as constantly on my mind as it used to be (because of the pills) I mean most people don't go around thinking "why not suicide why not do it", there thinking is probably alond the lines (when asked why the haven't killed themselves) would be "why do it? why suicide?"

So yeah I hope somewhere in this huge rant I gave you something to think about. Just remember that shit happens life goes on, no need to take it all so seriously.

>>2977826
>You don't get trialled everyday by the life police who'll kill you if your reason for existing isn't good enough ha.
Heh.

>>2977825
why do you privilege 'real experience' (whatever the fuck that means) over the experience of rationalization/thought?

Seriously what is a 'real' experience, and why isn't my friend having them? Are his experience fake?

I think you're fake and gay fuck off don't respond idiot.

Not bad advice OP. I give it an 8.5/10.

>>2977826
>>2977829
>>2977831
Logically, I think it's a pretty good answer, but since I can surmise you're a depressive yourself, you understand he might latch onto the meaningless of it all to spiral down further, right?

>>2977837
Not this guy, but in my opinion, thought over world experience is limited by imagination. You say already that half of what he imagines he just discards (the happy experiences) and focuses on the bad side of things. At least world experience might prod him with happy experiences he can't discard right away.

>>2977850
>you understand he might latch onto the meaningless of it all to spiral down further, right?

of course. it's happenned to me when you stop caring about all feels "I don't care about suffering or happiness, fuck it I don't want any of them I want to experience nothing no sir I don't want any feels at all no thankyou"

but what are you going to do I had to at least respond

http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy/phil-176

http://suicidenote.info/

Well first and foremost, thank you for your lengthy response. I appreciate you taking the time to write back to me. As far as the depression thing goes, I have been taking medication for it for years, along with regular counseling sessions. Unfortunately, they haven't seemed to do much, as my feelings stem from my philosophical despair as opposed to the other way around. I don't believe that I came upon these views to match my depressed mindset, rather my depressed mindset became a reaction to various "conclusions" I've made.

I should probably make a note that I've always had an extremely strong survival instinct, and I believe that's whats kept me going over the years. Frankly, if I didn't want to live, I probably wouldn't be here right now. I understand that life can have suffering along with joy. I'm not so naive as to believe I can never have a life where the positives outweigh the negatives ever again. My main dilemma is that no matter how good of a life I could live, I'm having issues being able value that over nonexistence. As you said yourself, comparing existence and nonexistence in itself doesn't make sense as there will be no you to experience nonexistence. With this belief, I could go and off myself at any time, and it wouldn't make a difference.

>>2977933
My main disagreement to this, whether it is logical or not, is that, lets say I have a hypothetical life of inescapable suffering ahead of me. How do I perceive living that life? Obviously I object to it, as it will bring me suffering. When I try to conceive nonexistence, I tend to fall back on the symmetry argument of Lucretius. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but it basically talks about equating prenatal and postmortem nonexistence. We don't object to the former, so why should we object to the latter? Though there will be no "us" to benefit from this, it is a "lack of a state" and a lack of suffering. So when I consider an existence of suffering (which i object to and I believe harms me) and a lack of existence (which i do not object to and brings me no harm), I tend to find myself gravitating towards nonexistence. This may be a very simplistic and incomplete view, but it is the best I can come up with.

>>2977937

This in itself gives harm (in my opinion) a set of values. I do seem to have value in harm, but finding positive value seems to be a different story. Maybe this is just a correlation with my depressed mindset, but I can't seem to make positive value seem any better than nonexistence. If I were to cease to exist, I would not be aware of what I am being deprived of. I tried very hard to convince myself of the argument of deprivation, but it simply does not seem rational to me. Anyways, I would love to be able to give in to your reason for existing, but I feel like I can't live a normal life, one with value, if the only reason I am existing is because it is a natural process. Sure, offing yourself might suck, but I know a lot of stuff in life that I will most likely face that sucks a lot more than that. I've personally endured a hell of a lot more pain in my lifetime than what would come from downing a bottle of pills (or something of that nature). What are your thoughts on this? And may I ask, do you value life? Do you feel like if you were to check out today that it would really matter? Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated, thanks.

>>2977887
>If my hypothesis is correct, this work will be repressed.
>I'm reading it.

Ahahaha. Now if I stop reading it can be blamed on me repressing myself...

I NEED HELP HELP ME LIT

>>2977947
Are you addicted to pot? Is it ruining your life?

>>2977953
no sorry I'm not

bump

>>2977933
>>2977937
>>2977940
Whelp, I can't argue with this. Only thing that keeps me from offing myself is the fact it would be a terrible thing to do to my family.

The flaw with his argument OP is that he believes death is permanent.

Point out that his composite parts will actually still exist long after his passing, and that if we consider consciousness to be feedback all parts that once composed him will still actually be experiencing this. Suicide doesn't do a thing, at best it just means that his parts will be in worse condition. Also relevant is the undeniable truth that NOBODY enjoys dying because it requires negative feedback to achieve. So he doesn't actually solve the problem and only ends up suffering for it/


Also, call him out for trying to justify his self-pity and using the fact that he is already in a hole to dig a bigger one. babying him won't actually help, if you really want success you'll need to tell him all the things he doesn't want to hear.

>My main dilemma is that no matter how good of a life I could live, I'm having issues being able value that over nonexistence. As you said yourself, comparing existence and nonexistence in itself doesn't make sense as there will be no you to experience nonexistence.

Death is just the end of this. I still think you’re thinking of non-existence as a state that you go into when this ends. When you die, you couldn't possibly go into this state called ‘non-existence’, because death is the cessation of yourself. There would exist no ‘you’ to not-exist. So it’s impossible to not exist.

So when of valuing a good life over non-existence, what you're saying is that you're having issues valuing a good life over ending this. I guess that means that you a think a 'good life' is not something worth seeking.

>>2978149
>My main disagreement to this, whether it is logical or not, is that, lets say I have a hypothetical life of inescapable suffering ahead of me. How do I perceive living that life? Obviously I object to it, as it will bring me suffering. When I try to conceive nonexistence, I tend to fall back on the symmetry argument of Lucretius. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but it basically talks about equating prenatal and postmortem nonexistence. We don't object to the former, so why should we object to the latter? Though there will be no "us" to benefit from this, it is a "lack of a state" and a lack of suffering.

I don't think it's quite right to say that non-existence is a lack of suffering as 'lack of suffering' is a state, whereas nonexistence is stateless. I mean how can there be a lack of suffering if there exists nobody to experience it? If you want relief from your suffering, you won't get it because you'll be dead. Nothing will exist to experience that relief. However if rather than relief, you just want this to cease, then death seems a valid option.

>>2978154
>So when I consider an existence of suffering (which i object to and I believe harms me) and a lack of existence (which i do not object to and brings me no harm), I tend to find myself gravitating towards nonexistence. This may be a very simplistic and incomplete view, but it is the best I can come up with.

I agree with this entirely. I even wrote this in response to one of your posts, "quote removed motherfuckers."

Hmm maybe that's not quite right. Does it make sense to say that you avoid the suffering? How could you avoid something if you aren't a 'you'? The suicide in the above case is like saying "pain stop!", "no more, make it end!". I still think that's the rational thing to do (end it) because suffering is something which is worth avoiding.

>>2978157
>This in itself gives harm (in my opinion) a set of values. I do seem to have value in harm, but finding positive value seems to be a different story. Maybe this is just a correlation with my depressed mindset, but I can't seem to make positive value seem any better than nonexistence.

I think what's happening here is you care about avoiding suffering but you don't care about seeking happiness. One is a positive desire (for something) and the other is the negation of a pain. So I don't think it's your depressed mindset that's causing it. I mean they're completely different aren't they? One is a positive want/desire for something (the attainment of a 'good'), the other is the avoidance of something (the negation of an ill). Just because you want to avoid something doesn't mean that you should want to seek something.

>>2978159
>Anyways, I would love to be able to give in to your reason for existing, but I feel like I can't live a normal life, one with value, if the only reason I am existing is because it is a natural process.

I think perhaps you missed my point. What I'm saying is that that is the reason you and I are both existing. It's just happening. I mean that that is the nature of life. It's blind to your reasons and justifications. You need a reason to end it (well not really), not be alive. What I'm saying is there is and can be no reason to be alive because life is just alive in-itself, any reason/justification you apply or give comes after this fact. Life pre-exists and happens before your reasons for existing are given.

>>2978160
>Sure, offing yourself might suck, but I know a lot of stuff in life that I will most likely face that sucks a lot more than that. I've personally endured a hell of a lot more pain in my lifetime than what would come from downing a bottle of pills (or something of that nature). What are your thoughts on this?

Well I know most people would respond to this with something like "why would you want to destroy yourself? There is no reason for it!". But myself, I don't know what to say. I mean your logic seems pretty flawless, and if destroying yourself is what you really want, then who am I to stop you? I will just say that I think you're applying logic in the wrong place in that life is fundamentally illogical; it just doesn't really make any sense.

Albert Camus wrote about this and told us that we can live in this state of tension between the fundamental meaninglessness/absurdity/nonsense that is life, and our constant want to make sense/find meaning/reason in life. If you haven't already I suggest you give "the myth of sisyphus" a read. Camus states that suicide is just a way of avoiding this juxtaposition of the meaninlessness of life with our need for meaning and that we should acknowledge the disparity and live in spite of it/through it. Meh I don't really see why we should do that but w/e.

>And may I ask, do you value life? Do you feel like if you were to check out today that it would really matter? Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated, thanks.

Honestly not really. I'm probably the worst person you should be talking to about suicide.
If I checked out today, to myself no it wouldn't matter. But I exist as part of a community, I have a mother and father, five siblings, a couple friends and I'm sure my death would matter to them.

>>2978069
stop shitposting.

That rebuttal felt very lacking, I'll be surprised if he's any more convinced than I am. Gotta say I'm rooting for Mr. Suicide.

>>2978184
yeah I agree

I'm prolly just as suicidal as him tho so what can you do ae

Ask him if there's anything in this world he loves, anything at all. Whether it's a sibling, a relative, a friend, an idea, a movement, a politic idea, a place, a writer.

Tell him to live for that. If he kills himself he denies protecting what he loves, the possibility of making it better.

If he says there's nothing that he loves, he's lying to himself. The statement "I like Stephen Colbert's show" implies that you love an ideal it represents. "I love irony, I love comedy, I love making people momentarily happy".

I don't think anybody can honestly say "There is nothing I love, like, or admire in this world".

I've been depressed. I've wanted to kill myself. I've searched for meaning and found nothing. But I saw the pointlessness of it all and created my own meaning. What am I to do? Every man, and woman, on this Earth wants to create their own Heaven. For some men this is dominion and a harem in Mexico, for some it's a garden and a family. But this is impossible for me, everything I love is ethereal and immaterial. To drown myself in wanton hedony or find some hollow ataraxia? No, I choose to create Heaven. It's impossible, I will fail, it is vain and selfish, but I must try. Anything else is a denial of my own will. Anything else is a lie.

>>2978164
no more camus period he is a fraud

>>2978166
lel

>the sad fact is that people refuse to believe this

sentience is a material constructed product. consciousness is feedback. This is not to say that composite parts should act or behave as a sentient whole, merely to say they interact with feedback as any chemical product must.

>conservation of energy means "life after death"
>suck it

>>2978229
super cool fucking story bro

not really though, faggot

I look suicide in the eye in a moment when I doubt the existence of the spiritual. I look at it, and two thoughts occur to me like the heads of janus:

1. What if I need to die to become satisfied?
2. What if I need to figure something out as a living person before I die?

And, knowing that I will ultimately die anyway, I see no reason to hasten it. There is only the potential that I will foolishly cut short some extra time I might have had to figure out the purpose of my life, even up to the last moment of its continuation.

And I look at the pain I feel, and the blackness that constricts my chest and mind, and I begin to perceive that I am lucky to feel this, as it is a part of life that I MUST experience if I am to understand life, for what can be truly understood unless every aspect of it is experienced first-hand? Nobody can describe the effect of experiencing a qualia to you; you must have it yourself.

The number of qualia that could be experienced is infinite, but the amount of time you have is finite. The question then becomes, what kind of qualia will you need to experience in life? You don't know the answer to the question, but you will need to find out.

I'm not suicidal these days, if I ever truly was, but what truly heartens me is that I am a problem-solving mind with a definite problem to solve, and I have yet to solve it. I should also probably try to communicate my progress on it to others, in case they can help me with it AND in case this is not the only time I will be alive; our exploration is saved in each other and this universe.

We must inscribe it into our existence like a fucking graphophile.

>>2978334
wow totally interesting story not stupid hipster gay faggotry bro

wicked awesome man really great post 10/10'

just remember bro we are stardust fuck man isn't that amazing fuck I love alan watts

again bro, great post clap clap

>>2978343

Yeah that's not really what I'm saying and I'm a little too old to be a hipster, but whatever, you apparently cannot into logical thought. Not everyone is created equal.

Regardless, the post nicely embodies what I use to address the quandary of suicidal thoughts in my own life. For all I know it is utterly worthless to anyone else, but it is invaluable to me.

Wow this thread turned into shit fast.

Don't answer. You have no way of giving him a legitimate answer. You would need a more intimate knowledge of his life. Maybe his life really isn't worth living anymore.
Who would know better than he?

>>2978334
My thought on the matter is the very fact that death is inevitable makes suicide easier to consider. I've seen people attempt to talk someone out of suicide before by saying that by living a long life you're "committing suicide the slow way". But that's just it, someone who's truly miserable sees little point in lengthening that misery if all they're doing is waiting for death. If both paths lead to the same end and the journey doesn't seem worth taking, checking out earlier makes sense.

(I'm the one who mentioned that the reason I haven't offed myself yet is because of how awful that would be to do to my family.) While I've been unhappy for a long time, I only recently came to the realization that I also dislike myself more than I originally thought. I've started trying to take small steps to make myself someone that I can live with. After all, other people come and go from your life, but you must always put up with yourself. So far not much has been accomplished, but I'm at least making an attempt.

Wasn't going anywhere in particular with this, just sharing a few thoughts. Just late night dribble I suppose.

>>2978384
>If both paths lead to the same end and the journey doesn't seem worth taking, checking out earlier makes sense.

Suicide because: too lazy to see life through to the end. Be a man and nut up.

>>2978391
Why? There's no reason to. You don't get some sort of award if you make it to the end.
Nothing changes except you'll (probably) experience more things. If that's not important to a person then there's no reason they shouldn't suicide.

I like Mr. Suicide a lot. He seems reasonable and clear headed.

You might try agreeing with him, then the faggot will be caught off guard because he uses other people as a mechanism to stay alive so he can himself wallow in misery completely. If you stop being the representative of living, he finds that he has that side to himself as well, since he is alive, obviously. When you argue against suicide you are enabling him to fully take on the negative side and slander life, something which is probably a form of catharsis for him. Let him make up his own excuses to go on living, it might do him good.

>>2978394
If death is inevitable, why not enjoy life for all it has to offer before you die? You're right that they both lead to the same place, but one path is brief and painful and the other is long and has a lot of beauty in it. You have to end up dead eventually, but there's no need to rush: why not take the scenic route?

>>2979262
Childrens book on this subject: Brother Lionheart

>>2979262
live for pleasure. if you can't do that kill yourself

>>2979262
That's easy to do for someone with a healthy mind, but not everyone can see life as having beauty and hope to it. If they view life as overwhelmingly made up of pain with only a shred of short-lived happiness, there's little motivation for taking the long road. After all, once they're dead, it'll no longer matter whether they took the long road or the short road. Sure they're missing out on a chance for things to get better, but the motivation for suicide is to end the journey quickly and escape from their suffering.

>>2977341
Diogenes was asked, "What is the difference between life and death?

"No difference."

"Well then, why do you remain in this life?"

"Because there is no difference."

*Hint* It's not all about you.

'Me' is a thought that constantly recreates itself and sees the world in relation to itself and can find no meaning in itself or the world. Allow the thought of self to die, and meaning reveals itself in the 'other'.

>>2977344
I actually agree with this shit. Psychedelics helped me to get over my suicidal tendencies and depression, so it might work for others as well.

Personally I'd advise the guy from OP's post to start travelling though. If you feel like you have nothing to lose, you might as well travel. And travelling WILL give you a sense of purpose and direction, if you do it long enough. (I'm talking 2+ years of being on the road here.)
I can't think of a single person who went through with this, and still thought about killing himself afterwards.

>>2979674
yeah but half of these people don't understand the value of the drug. People are really close minded these days

>>2979676
but then again, if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out

Also, the value of a drug is largely determined by the purpose it's consumption has, as well as the setting.

What forum?

philosophyforums.com/

save

Okay so basically, how I'm feeling right now is it wouldn't really matter whether I was alive or dead (at least not to myself). If I were to cease to exist right now, I don't really care, nor do I see a reason to care. Whether my life is great or a piece of shit, it doesn't really matter. You seem to be able to survive regardless. For the record, don't think your advice brought me to this point, this is basically what I've been thinking for a long time. So now basically I'm stuck. I don't see a point in killing myself, yet continuing to exist seems absolutely worthless. Everything feels hollow, there is virtually no emotion. Nothing seems real. I try to immerse myself in moments, but everything dissolves due to the fact that if I were to go out of existence right now I wouldn't be any better or worse off. I feel myself drawing closer and closer to nihilistic paralysis. If there's any advice you can give me as to how to generally live your life anyways, please do share.

You guys are great.

>>2983648
wtf is "nihilistic paralysis"

>>2983684
>google.com
>"nihilistic paralysis"
>"an inability to choose a course of action."

I'm just going to leave this here

http://fuuka.warosu.org/lit/thread/2980165#p2980684

Chances are OP is ~90% of thread