/lit/ - Literature

It already has

It has to be free of plato first. People still believe in platonic forms/essence bullshit. This is the same metaphysics that Christians use. Once you;re free of platonic metaphysics, you'll be free of Christianity

Nietzsche is chicken shit who's work could only be rescued by Mencken.

He is the intellectual grandfather of Ayn Rand and Kurtz

>im an egotistical syphallitic asshole so everyone else is too

how do yuo even pronounce his name, is it like nee-etz-cha? nye-tess-zee? nay-taz-she?

>>2945179
forvo.com

He is the spiritual godfather of Ayn Rand

Mencken should have translated more of his works, because every other translation is shit.

>>2945179
>durr we evolved compassion therefore compassion must be good
>mfw atheists claim to reject Christianity yet cling to Christian morals

We're already free from that. Now what will save us from the weakness that technicity has left us?

>>2945186
>>mfw atheists claim to reject Christianity yet cling to Christian morals

Morality existed before Christianity

>>2945158
Who the fuck believes in Platonic forms?

>>2945188
No shit, pointdexter. But many atheists are humanists, even though compassion and altruism are considered positive things in western society largely because of Christian morality.

>>2945194
> compassion and altruism

They're necessary for civil society
Every wonder why people don't pay taxes, bribe officials, and abuse the welfare system in India? Because people put self-interest before all else. Shit country. Shit culture, exactly why Nietzsche praised it.

>>2945201
>They're necessary for civil society

[citation needed]

>Every wonder why people don't pay taxes, bribe officials, and abuse the welfare system

People would do this in the United States too if they could, fuckstick. They don't do it because they don't want to end up in prison, not because they are so morally superior.

> Because people put self-interest before all else.

So does 99% of the human population.

>>2945188
> Morality existed before Christianity

Christianity existed before Christ. (That's the whole, and only, point of the Old Testament, by the way.)

>>2945205
>People would do this in the United States too if they could, fuckstick.

There's nothing stopping you from paying taxes.

>They don't do it because they don't want to end up in prison

Indians are thrown in jail for not paying taxes. Likewise Greeks lose power for tax evasion.

>morally superior
Never said anything about morals.

>99% of the human population.
Self-interest before all else =/= conditional self-interest

>>2945205
its laughable to think people don't bribe officials, fail to pay taxes, or abuse welfare in the USA....

india is a shithole because it has an average IQ of 80.

>>2945214
There is no Christianity without Paul

>>2945216
>There's nothing stopping you from paying taxes.

Prison. If there were no consequences for not paying your taxes, most people would not pay them. They do it to avoid punishment, not because they are compassionate.

>Self-interest before all else =/= conditional self-interest
>drawing arbitrary lines

>>2945217
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/in-india-tax-evasion-is-a-national-sport-07282011.html

Same thing in any shitty third world country where citizens put themselves over the rest of society.

It's called libertarianism OP! >:D

>>2945222
>India is a 3rd world country because people are selfish

>>2945222
Is that why collectivist countries are all shitty while societies founded on individuality prosper?

>>2945221
Prison is the same consequence for the rest of the world, yet that's not an impedance to not paying taxes.

>drawing arbitrary lines
You're the one arguing with different terms. I can't blame you if you don't understand some basic definitions or logic.

>>2945228
People don't pay taxes out of compassion you fucking retard, they do it because it's the law and they don't want to go to prison.

When a religion is finally getting older because the general mind has gotten itself over it, a newer and updated one comes out and shitfucks society's minds again.

>>2945228
>Oh boy it's tax day, I can't wait to pay my taxes because I'm such an altruistic person! If there was no law forcing me to do so, I would still give away my money to the government because it's the right thing to do!

Christian apologists cannot be this retarded.

>>2945179
Auf Deutsch, "nye-tchay". Anglos say "neet-chee," more or less.

>>2945226
>India is a 3rd world country because people

India is the model society that Nietzsche preaches.

>>2945227
>societies founded on individuality prosper?
Collectivist countries like Scandinavia and Germany are shitty?

>societies founded on individuality prosper?
Anglo-states you imagine to be based off individualism are welfare states today

I'm sure glad Christians like Mitt Romney are compelled to pay their taxes and not use every cheating loophole in the book to get away with paying hardly anything

>>2945234
>>2945232
> it's the law
> law forcing me to do so

laws that they consent and agree to.

Seems like amateur hour today.

>>2945201
Compassion and altruism are necessary for civil society? [Other than, define civil society...] UMMM THE ANCIENT GREEKS? History contra your opinion.

>>2945236
wrong

http://www.forvo.com/word/friedrich_nietzsche/#de

Knee-Chuh

>>2945242
They pay taxes because it's the law, not out of compassion. If you weren't 14 and actually paid taxes or knew anyone that has paid taxes, it's not exactly an altruistic experience.

>>2945214
Oh, really? If there is a dichotomy to be drawn between the Old & New Testaments, it's wrathful God versus compassionate God. Different dispositions, different deities. The OTG gives NTG street cred. (i.e., serves as a warning, don't fuck with the father of peace and love)

*13 years of Catholic school and 18 of attempted indoctrination.

>>2945214
Yeah, it's called Judaism.

>>2945245
Yes, yours is more accurate. I'm not so good with phonetics.

>>2945237
>India is the model society that Nietzsche preaches

The India in the 19th century was a little different than modern India.

>>2945238
But guys, he pays them out of compassion!

Why do you idiots think they government gives tax breaks if you give to charity? They do it to give incentive for people to donate.

If people gave out of altruism, this kind of thing would not be necessary.

>>2945244
Midas touch
&
every Greek Tragedy, they invented the genre

>>2945246
People pay taxes because people agree to a law that obliges them to pay taxes

>>2945252
India in the 19th century was literally more shittier than modern day.

Go chase them dreams though.

>>2945258
Yeah, but if there was no law forcing people to pay taxes 99% of people wouldn't. Therefore proving that they don't pay them out of compassion or good will.

Why is this difficult for you to comprehend?

>>2945259
>India in the 19th century was literally more shittier than modern day.

[citation needed]

Define "shittier".

actually churches are exempt from paying taxes

>>2945263
But they would if they weren't exempt. So if the government tomorrow forced them to pay taxes do they all of a sudden become compassionate people?

Taxes have nothing to do with morals, assblaster.

>>2945258
Ummm, have you ever seen Poussin's take on Midas? Or heard of the Greek concept of arete? Or Zeus raping children? The moral of Oedipus is compassion? Are you serious? I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

books

dark like my soul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGL8NQ519Q

>>2945256
>Why do you idiots think they government gives tax breaks if you give to charity? They do it to give incentive for people to donate.

If paying taxes equated to altruism
Then tax incentives from charitable acts prove a way to prevent people from giving more than what's expected.

Your reasoning.
1.Government makes an incentive
2.Without incentive, action wouldn't happen.
Applied:
The government makes an incentive to own a home. Without incentives, there wouldn't be any sort of home ownership.
Shit statement.

3.Supposed cause of action, if existed, then no need for incentive
Applied:
If environmentalism existed, then government vouchers for green energy would not be necessary.
Shit statement.

if Christians are so compassionate why is the Republican party always trying to destroy the social safety net that protects our most vulnerable citizens? must be the influence of athiests within the party amirite

>>2945270
>The government makes an incentive to own a home. Without incentives, there wouldn't be any sort of home ownership.

Uh, no. More like, without incentives, there would be LESS home ownership, which is true. Incentives increase charity donations because it gives them a selfish reason to do so(pay less taxes).

You just proved me right.

>>2945272
A republican would say that it's the job of the citizens to help each other, not the governments. Which is supported by the fact that Republicans donate overwhelmingly more to charity.

But again, this compassion they possess is spurred by the desire to be seen as a good person in the eyes of God. So they are compassionate, but mainly for selfish reasons.

>>2945277
>Republicans donate overwhelmingly more to charity

only because churches apparently count as charities, apparently they want citizens to help each other by brainwashing the population and indoctrinating their children into a culture of hate and fear

>>2945264
>But they would if they weren't exempt

Being exempt doesn't necessarily mean that you can't pay something in taxes. If the Church was all good and powerful like it claims, why doesn't it wave this exemption themselves and pay some fucking tax? Hiding behind an exemption law is baseless cowardice that promotes dissatisfaction and projects an image of being greedy and avaricious.

but western civilization and the rule of law only emerged because of Christianity jeff

>>2945331
>how can one man be so naive

ITT: People not understanding that the only India Nietzsche ever praised was ancient India and the laws of Manu

Why the fuck are people calling Nietzsche a libertarian and the predecessor to Ayn Rand? Are you guys stupid? Nietzsche was an existentialist, a philosophy based in nihilism, and would've rejected the struggle to totally liberate humanity from political forces.

Nietzsche was all for a small state, but would have that state be aristocratic in some way.

>>2945329
Yeah I know, but them not paying taxes proves that taxes aren't something people do out of compassion, but rather because they are required by law.

>>2945360
Pretty sure that was one person, chill the fuck out autist.

>>2945360
>Nietzsche
>nihilism

Given enough time, many nations will be without religion at all.
Examples would be Canada, Ireland , New Zealand, the Netherlands, Finland. Maybe a few more too but i forgot them.
Either way, with this technological age, religion is slowly dying out.

>>2945402
> Either way, with this technological age, religion is slowly dying out.

How quaint, in a 18th-century way.

>>2945402
Humanism is secular Christianity. It's merely stripped of it's metaphysics and some of it's imagery, but Christian ethics are alive and well. Most people don't realise this and think they're quite enlightened and secular, but are still mindlessly accepting the same morality.

You would think that one has to justify still adhering to the rules of a deity one doesn't belief in, but apparently this is all fine and dandy. Them unconscious spooks.

>>2945402
Then why is the greatest country in the world, America, still over 70% religious?

>>2945408
America is religious because it doesn't quite understand what religion is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wifUXxsOPMA

>>2945408
>Then why is the greatest country in the world, America

Everytime there is any mention of religion its safe to assume it's an american. Even religious non-americans are better to be around than athiest americans. Fucking hell/

>>2945431
Diplomatic power, most wealth, largest GDP, Strongest military by a massive margin, largest diplomatic sway. It's hard to deny and I'm a canuck.

Worst thread on /lit/

>>2945464
america is rapidly declining as it turns into a non-white country.

much like canada will be fundamentally changed with mass immigration does its work.

i predict that both canada and the USA will balkanize at some point.

>>2945407
>Humanism is secular Christianity
no it isn't.

>>2945477

It's a vague term with multiple meanings. As a result it's an academic buzzword. You can say it doesn't mean something, but it probably does.

>>2945464
Shitloads of poverty, ghettoes, torture, starting war with everyone, being in enormous debt, 1 party away from a one party system, unhealthy fat uneducated ravaged by drugs shitty infrastructure and a cultural vacuum.

Just another way of looking at it.

>>2945464
>Diplomatic power,
nope

>most wealth,
-15 billion (most debt)

>largest GDP,
Yes, nearly as high as the EU

>Strongest military by a massive margin,
China

>>2945485
China has the largest military but they're working with some old shitty material. There's one thing I'll give the Americans and that's that they are by far the best at blowing shit up.

>>2945485
>nope

Yep, UN is pretty much America's bitch.

>-15 billion (most debt)
That's not how wealth works.

>Yes, nearly as high as the EU
>comparing one country to the whole EU

lel

>China
Wrong again, America has much more firepower and overall military strength.

>>2945485
They do have the largest army but they also spend way more money on dealing with domestic threats than foreign ones.

>>2945486
> China has the largest military but they're working with some old shitty material. There's one thing I'll give the Americans and that's that they are by far the best at blowing shit up.

Nations that take war seriously (unlike the clownish American amateurs) understand that winning a war isn't about 'blowing shit up', it's all about sustaining the most damage and surviving to the end.

>>2945242
>laws that they consent and agree to.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
4/10, had me going for a while back there, nice effort.

>>2945483
>shitloads of poverty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

>ghettoes
Black people.

>torture
>yuropoors consider torturing mass murderers inhumane.

>starting wars
Feels good being the most powerful country.

>debt
We had more debt as a % of GDP after WW2

>1 party away from a one party system
Boo-hoo.

> unhealthy fat uneducated ravaged by drugs shitty infrastructure and a cultural vacuum.
American whites are skinnier than UK and Australian whites, and are the 2nd smartest whites in the world.

>>2945495
>Nations that take war seriously (unlike the clownish American amateurs) understand that winning a war isn't about 'blowing shit up',

Tell that to Japan.

>>2945502

>>2945508
I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that we have 100x as many people as yuropoor countries?

Since you couldn't refute anything I said and instead replied with an image, I'll take that as your acknowledgment that I have won.

>>2945508
>not per capita
>no citations

Stay mad and poor euros.

>>2945495
Pretty sure war is an organised effort to blow other peoples shit and other people up. I'd rather do that with an apache than a shitty AK.

>mfw America is having a national debate about whether evolution is real

>>2945512
>not per capita

Of course it is, how else can New Zealand and Slovakia be part of anything? They would probably have to impregnate more teens than they have to get on such a list if it's not per capita.

hahahhahahahahahahahahahahah oh wow

>>2945485
>>2945483
>Diplomatic power: nope.
Are you fucking shitting me? This isn't even debatable. They don't call America the world police for nothing.

>Military power: China
That's a myth. They have no broad scale amphibious landing capability, America has a fleet which in scale tonnage is 13 times larger than China, non existent force projection and a horribly bad air force, not to mention it's completely surrounded by military bases and Five eye nations. There's also the experience factor which is huge. This really is undeniable.

>>2945511
I could refute it, if I actually gave a shit about this dumb argument. I dont even live in Europe.

for example:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/17/us-usa-economy-poverty-idUSTRE68F4K520100917

>"The Census Bureau said 43.6 million people, or one in seven Americans, lived in poverty last year"

>>2945536
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

ITT: Rampant nationalism.

>>2945536
poverty is relative and arbitrary.

plus no surprise that blacks/illegal mexicans are "poor".
or whores who sleep around and never get married, they end up "poor" and living on welfare too. Often their children are mongrel bastards.

>>2945483
> close to a one party system
You really don't understand American politics. It's been like this since the civil war ended and it's not going to change.
>Poverty and starting wars
Yeah, like European countries don't have rampant poverty. It's a problem for everyone. I laugh any time a European accuses America of starting a war considering Iraq was entered and maintained for Coalition interests. Especially considering oil from Iraq doesn't make to the US and instead ends up in the Eurozone.

Like it or not, America is a benevolent, healthy, and very powerful country. You may not like the culture but you can't deny it's legacy is going to be great. Did I mention it has the most robust legal system in the world? The sheer amount of frivolous lawsuits and the effectiveness of the Supreme court can attest to this, and you won't go to jail for calling someone a nigger. BTW, I'm a politically minded Canadian not an American. This isn't blind patriotism talking.

At least, you can't be arrested for calling someone a nigger.

>>2945550
>Did I mention it has the most robust legal system in the world? The sheer amount of frivolous lawsuits and the effectiveness of the Supreme court can attest to this
what

>>2945266

Lol your on LIT faggot.

>>2945155

lol this thread is now about whos country is the best.

Conclusion: Best thread on 4chan.

>>2945550
>America is a benevolent
u wot m8?

USA is basically responsible for international communism. That's hardly benevolent.

>>2945394
Yer, it's the one major test to see if people have actually read and understood Nietzsche is whether or not they consider him a nihilist.

(ITT: retardation - do you even read? If you do, do you comprehend?)

Why don't Americans accept that a two party system isn't democratic at all?

>>2945369
By aristocratic you'd have to mean "regal" or "mighty".

Not arbitrary hereditary succession of inbred incompetents.

Nietzsche was the greatest advocate of meritocracy the world has ever known (ho ho!)

>>2945639
>you get the choice to be killed either by hanging or fire squad
>feels good to be land of the free

>>2945155
No, probably not.

It will continue to promote weakness as strength as that allows the usual oligarchy to maintain control:

"only the meek shall inherit the earth" etc., etc.

As someone pointed out earlier, secular humanism can just be seen as christianity without the christ - so it's just fooling itself.

Unfortunately, this "christianity without christianity" is not strong enough when it comes up against another totally unbending ideology, Islam, and thus Yurp will fall because of this inner-weakness.

To combat such an ideology of dumbness (Islam), you'd have to do it the old fashioned way as all modern justifications are too flimsy to be able to withstand the onslaught - especially for the masses to comprehend/get their support for.

It's easier to get the downtrodden to be excited about religion than it is to get them excited about lofty moral concepts divorced from any scent of religion, IMO.

Hence, either change the base morality entirely or accept Brohammed as your profitt or

DEUS VULT!!!! and fight stupid fire with stupid fire.

Three alternatives for Yurp.

Which will they choose?

>>2945639
why can't you accept that democracy is shit and that america is a republic?

>>>/pol/

GTFO

>>2945634
It's not possible to have actually read anything by Nietszche and still believe he's a nihilist.

>>2945698
That was my point.

>>2945360
Do you even existentialism?

I'll give you a clue, it isn't mutually exclusive to libertarianism.

Oh, you called Nietzsche a nihilist, in which case 2/10 nice troll.

Correcting terrible thread's terribleness.

'Nietzsche praised India' - Correction, he praised the 19C idea of India as the most hieratic society that ever was - see Law of Manu. This is an ideal, historical India, which may or may not have ever existed - historicity of this point doesn't sink Nietzsche's argumentative boats.

'Secular humanism is christianity without metaphysics'
Secular humanism is often Christianity with all of its metaphysical presumptions. What secular humanism does is replace 'god' with 'spirit' (in a Hegelian-Feuerbachian twist) and delete all of christianity's theology (which, and it will not surprise us who know, leaves a great deal over. Christianity is a lot more than its theology. In fact it is practically liberated from theology today and operates in a sphere of pure dumbess, of theo-alogy.)

Do you think Nietzsche would have liked Linkin Park?

>>2945731
In my native language "Linkin Park" is phonetically similar to "Monkey eats vegetables".

So, no, I don't think he would have liked them.

>>2945731
Looks more like a Radiohead sorta guy to me.

>>2945731
He looks like he listens to Decemberists. And Dresden Dolls.

>>2945731
Martial Industrial/Neo-Folk kinda guy.

this isn't literature

good thread wink wink

>>2945731
oh shit he looks exactly like the metalhead i went to school with

>mfw any thread concerning Nietzsche on /lit/ will derail
>mfw no one here can remotely understand Nietzsche correctly
>mfw this is exactly what he predicted would happen

It's still not your time Nietzsche, maybe in another 100 years.

>>2945847
>mfw no one here can remotely understand Nietzsche correctly

Including yourself.

>>2945854
Yes, I include myself in that too.

>actually trying to free Western civilization from weakness
>not using Nietzsche's philosophy to gain ground against the weaklings and gain power for yourself

The only true application of Nietzsche's philosophy.

>>2945719

im not sure what difference it makes whether the laws of manu were an ideal or a historical reality. nietzsche's point remains the same - that the ideal society is highly hierarchic. in the same passage nietzsche references egypt's pyramid-like social structure, with an elite ruling nobility.

more tidbits from nietzsche:

fundamental faith: society is a scaffolding for a higher task, a higher human being

first principle: that the weak should perish, and we should help them to it

principle of disintegration and decay: refrain from exploitation

exploitation: the essence of what lives

>>2945892
Here's a tidbit for you:
The eternal return.

I kind of like the question: I interpret the answer to mean that one should really live each and every day of one's life as if you will have to repeat it into eternity.

If you're going to play a song, make sure that it is a good one, because the record may just be stuck on replay.

Nietzsche could perhaps have been the most stupidly optimistic, life-loving and personable philosopher to ever have lived.

Anyone ever had a "Gay Science" moment?

>>2945926

another, and i think complimentary meaning of the eternal return is a harkening back to a more ancient and primordial way of life, one that is in touch with passage of day to night and the movement of the seasons, a cyclical notion of time that affirms our dwelling on the earth, our being in the world. nietzsche's intention is to counter 1) the metaphysical notion of time as linear and of history as progress 2) metaphysical dualism (i.e. there this life and then there is true life - the afterlife, which is the same as saying, following plato, that the world of appearance and the world of forms).

there is a lot to be learned from nietzche, even for those of us who, unlike him, dont think that aristocracy is the best form of government. i also dont agree with nietzsche that strength of will can adequately address the danger of nihilism . . .

>>2945926

"gay science" is the niezsche's most humanist text, in contrast to the books that will follow. if someone were to read just "gay science", they would completely misunderstand nietzsche. also nietzsche would be a lot less interesting and challenging.

thread revival: successful

>>2945485
If you think the USA isn't the strongest in convential warfare you're wrong.

They suck against guirallas because they destroy everything (including innocents)

But at conventional warfare they're 1.

>>2945990

. . . and the thread is once again derailed by an illiterate.

>>2945155
"I say: liberate yourself as far as you can, and you have done your part; for it is not given to every one to break through all limits, or, more expressively, not to everyone is that a limit which is a limit for the rest. Consequently, do not tire yourself with toiling at the limits of others; enough if you tear down yours. [...] He who overturns one of his limits may have shown others the way and the means; the overturning of their limits remains their affair."

I once did a course on Nietzsche; this was years ago now, so I have forgotten much of it (and everything else "learned")

The lecturer at one stage charted out (what he thought, I suppose) in what way one should read Nietzsche's works.

I distinctly remember that he recommended a sequence that did not follow the chronological timeline of publication. I cannot remember the reasons for that particular sequence, either.

Anyone care to recommend a reading sequence?

I really should dig up those notes.....
If I could redo one course from my undergraduate days, it would be that one, and though he was only a sessional lecturer, that guy was the best teacher that forlorn philosophy department had in years.

>>2946005
THEN WHY DID HE WRITE THAT DOWN AND PUBLISH IT

>>2946032

Do I write out of love to men? No, I write because I want to procure for my thoughts an existence in the world; and, even if I foresaw that these thoughts would deprive you of your rest and your peace, even if I saw the bloodiest wars and the fall of many generations springing up from this seed of thought — I would nevertheless scatter it. Do with it what you will and can, that is your affair and does not trouble me. You will perhaps have only trouble, combat, and death from it, very few will draw joy from it.

If your weal lay at my heart, I should act as the church did in withholding the Bible from the laity, or Christian governments, which make it a sacred duty for themselves to 'protect the common people from bad books'. But not only not for your sake, not even for truth's sake either do I speak out what I think. No —

I sing as the bird sings
That on the bough alights;
The song that from me springs
Is pay that well requites

I sing because — I am a singer. But I use you for it because I — need ears

>>2946025
Ha - I do remember that he gave us an ongoing project to take on as our own (to contribute to and share with others).

It was his own "Ariadne's Thread", as it were (in fact, that's what he called it) - an index of sorts that charted out particular themes (life, death, love, work etc.,) and listed the sections and aphorisms which corresponded to said theme.

I wish I could find that damn booklet now.

>>2945639
>>2945681
why both of you can't accept that Representative Government is neither a Democracy nor a Republic?

>>2945974
I have only the faintest details on his biography - did something drastic occur between Gay Science and the works that were to follow? I seem to recall that there was a woman involved at some stage in his life - isn't there just always?

>>2946042
Please don't reply to those posts -

Please start a thread in /pol/ if you wish to discuss that.

what about the death of god? in my reading, the death of god is a calamity for nietzsche that leads directly to nihilism. only the philosopher-king nobility can handle the truth of nihilism since they possess the strength of will to create / legislate new values. for the masses, the truth of nihilism should be masked by a noble lie - that authority of law is derived from god. this lie / mask makes unconscious the assumption that the order of castes reflects the order of nature (Plato's myth of metals). thoughts?

>>2946043

nietzsche just developed as a thinker. i think thats why his later books are different from his earlier books.

the big thing in his life was his break with wagner. im not sure when that happened or how important it is.

>>2946045
>nihilism
There's that word again...

>>2946050

the truth of nihilism: our grounding principles are themselves ungrounded

the danger of nihilism: to will nothingness rather than not will

>>2946050

response to the danger of nihilism: the strength to will an uncertain something rather than a certain nothing

I've taken the ubermensch philosophy to heart. I've been traveling nonstop, working out like crazy, eating healthy, studying and reading every topic such as science, mathematics, semiotics, linguistics, philosophy, political studies, political philosophy, etc. I've lied and cheated my way to a managerial position at work, and I'm making more money.

I still can't get a girl.

;_;

>>2946059
>the ubermensch philosophy to heart.
and what, exactly, is this "ubermensch philosophy" of which you speak? And how does it relate to this thread?

>>2946064
your mom

>>2946059

most ppl that read nietzsche assume that they are overmen. this is wrong. you are pathetic and nietzsche hates you. im not saying that he should, just that he does.

overmen are bred / cultivated over centuries. a ruling caste is hereditary - hence nietzsche's many references to the laws of manu and the hindu caste system. you are part of the herd that nietzsche despises, as is everyone else on this thread most likely.

>>2946059

myself included of course

>>2946059
Nietzche was as equally critical of the ubermensch as he was the "slaves".

>>2946077

that doesnt seem right. can you give an example?

>>2946064
Ubermunch is a shitty forced meme started by Nietzsche. He was butthurt at Wagner because he was getting so much pussy, so he rejected everything and said life has no meaning. When he was accused of nihilism he turned around and said, "no I am not a nihilist, I am ubermunch" which literally translates as superman. Nietzsche believes that life has meaning if you pretend to be superman.

>>2946081

not even close. you should feel bad.

>>2946096
Indeed.

So many people only read the wikipedia (or something like it) articles these days I see.

>>2946081
>so he rejected everything and said life has no meaning
Wrong.

2/10 for not applying yourself.

>>2946077
Nonsense. He was critical of the masters as well as the slaves. The Übermensch is beyond both.

I think people who comment on Nietzsche without having read him should be banned for life from the world.

>>2946096
>>2946117
>Thinking that post was serious.

>>2946125
>attempting to pass off your fail as troll/shitpost/unserious musing

1/10 - didn't we already speak about this? Perhaps I should call your parents.

>>2946124
>I think people who comment on Nietzsche without having read him should be banned for life from the world.

That would include 90% of posters here and 99% of poster on /lit/ in general.

>>2946140
You must be American if you think that post was serious.

>>2946148
Relegating your fail to americlaps.

0/10

>>2945179

2/10

I was rustled

Nietzsche once described Napoleon as half ubermensch, half monster; he identified the ubermensch with Goethe. Now contrast Goethe with 'works out a lot, reads alutta books, cheats and lies his way to a managerial position at his wage-slave job in order to achieve bourgeois mastery of his own alienation.'

>>2945156
Yep, now it has to work against the weakness of feminism and socialism.

>>2946182
>'works out a lot, reads alutta books, cheats and lies his way to a managerial position at his wage-slave job in order to achieve bourgeois mastery of his own alienation.'

Yer, dem mercenary tactics supposedly espoused by that anon don't really fit the "profile".

>>2945854

"no one" would include himself, idiot

>>2946230
Pendant faggot detected.
Perhaps there are some ESL students about.

>>2946230
badass grammarnazi here folks. best watch out otherwise he'll judge your grammar!

Diogenes is the best example of an Übermensch. He revalued all values, which he called "defacing the currency". He lived by these values in spite of society. He was free of decadence and endured hardships. He was a cosmopolitan (he most likely invented the word/concept), individualist and held everyone, including himself, to tremendously high standards. His words and actions coincided perfectly. He was an example of Nietzsche's "great health", a vitality of both body and mind far beyond your average person. He refused to let his philosophy be encompassed by a theoretical system, instead having them be the expression of his unity as a person, not as a person subservient to dogma. He was fearless in the face of conformity and even in that of the great powers of the day and lived on a level of intellectual autonomy rarely seen before or since. He also disposed otherworldliness and was true to the earth. He embraced our everyday existence fully and was the embodiment of amor fati. Truly a remarkable man.

Another who I believe at least psychologically came close to the embodiment of the Übermensch idea was Max Stirner, in the sense of his philosophical and mental autonomy and his basing his values and worldview on himself, in an ultimately creative manner, instead of being a ressentimentfull reactionary slave. He combines individualism with an active and creative philosophy and he too was a cosmopolitan in his sense. And beyond good and evil, as Nietzsche would have put it.

What about the weakness technicity has caused us?

"muh cell phone! i lost muh cell phone!"

>>2946285
Or like "muh fire, I can't cook killed beasts and scare off killer beasts without muh fire!"

Fucking technology cripples us.

>>2946291
Technicity is specifically to do with modern technology, dumb-dumb.

>>2946294
My point remains that people complaining about a dependence on technology usually draw some arbitrary and imaginary line between what they think is technology and what constitutes technology at large. This sort of technophobia is usually reserved for objects invented after one came to maturity. People who hate cell phones for example are generally old people and people who want to profile themselves in a certain way (a sort of retro posing that might involve typewriters and fountain pens and more recently, an irrational affinity for paper books) . It is rarely based on a clear distinction between benevolent and malevolent technologies though. It boils down to "meh I don't like it, kids these days!"

>>2946124

i think i can add to this point.

nietzsche is pretty clear that beyond good and evil lies good and bad, or noble morality. he explains that for the noble, good is that which is feared while bad is that which is contemptible, whereas in slave morality, good is that which is meek while bad is that which is feared - what which was formerly considered noble.

in so far as the overman undertakes a revaluation of value, he is drawing from slave morality. in so far as these new values resemble ancient virtues such as courage, honour, etc, the overman is drawing from master morality.

so the overman is beyond noble morality by undertaking a revaluation of value that is characteristic of slave morality, while the overman is also beyond slave morality by creating / legislating ancient noble virtues while ruling the slaves as their master.

hope this helps clarify things. it gets pretty tricky.

>>2946318
You really have no idea what you are talking about and are jumping to all kinds of presumptions in order to make a point.

The epoch of technicity is characterized by scientism, specialization and abstraction. It is a contemporary epoch with modern qualifications regarding our relationship with technology and what we exploit (rather arrogantly and aimlessly) in the pursuit it. Read Heidegger or at least Horkheimer.

>>2946340

not the anon you're talking to, but for heidegger the essence of technology arose out of greek philosophy. horkheimer and adorno argued that the potential for the atom bomb could already be seen in the primitive sling-shot. so im going to have to go ahead and disagree with the way you cite these authors to argue that technology is "contemporary with the modern epoch".

>>2946340
I freely admit I have no idea about the concept of technicity, mine was more a statement on people's attitudes concerning technology in general. Perhaps a bit uncalled for, but your example of people disliking to go without their cellphones triggered it.

>>2946352
That doesn't exactly contradict anything I've said. Heidegger specifically targeted modern technology, citing previous technology such as peasant farming to be respectful of the land, whereas modern technology exploits the land as pure resource, challenging the land to yield more at less of a cost.

Horkheimer's critique of formalized reason at the rise of scientism is necessarily modern:

"Concepts have become 'streamlined', rationalized, labor-saving devices. It is as if thinking itself had been reduced to the level of industrial processes, subjected to a close schedule--in short, made part and parcel of production."

>>2946358
Admittedly, I kind of made the cell phone comment to bait another anon who recently made a post in some other thread about how Heidegger would make fun of people for carrying devices with contact info on their person at all times. I'm curious where he as going with that argument, or why he thought that.

>>2945550
maximum overtroll.jpg

>>2945639
a lot of us do accept that, by as far as I can tell, we're a not-vocal-enough minority

>>2946271

To me the over-man isn't one person. It's the collection of different types of people which accumulate to create a higher being. In a sort of recursive fractal type thing. All these people having thrown of the shackles of the prey/predator dichotomy and have ascended to a form of will that burns towards the outside of humanity.

Also I'd say that I can identify with Platonic forms to an extent. It's interesting nevertheless according to how we see numbers etc.

>>2945360

Ayn Rand herself stated that she was heavily influenced by the work of Nietzsche. In fact, a rough draft of 'The Fountainhead' had Nietzsche quotes at the beginning of every chapter. So it isn't surprising that someone would say that he was a predecessor.

Just read them both and look past the academic labels, there are noticeable similarities.

>>2946726
to repeat what you've said

Ayn Rand is Nietzsche for the layman.

I remember people here saying that Rand misunderstood Nietszche a whole lot when /lit/ was new.

I wonder what an atheistic society with aztec morals would be like?

>>2946728
Nope, it's for dumb shits who even think Nietzsche is similar to Ayn Rands simplistic capitalist jerk off.

>>2946668

I like your ideas, sir or ma'am. It solves the Nietzsche: individualism for individualism's sake? thing, in its way. And I don't doubt that it could have been his intention. Also, it negates the whole Ayn Rand = dumbed down Nietzsche thing.

PS - sharing with you all some of Nietzsche's poetry (when I found this I flipped shit). Der Angst! No google book preview, sadly. http://books.google.ca/books/about/Dithyrambs_of_Dionysus.html?id=XKsqAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y

>>2946869
Have you read some of his letters? I knew he had a dramatic streak, but some of it is downright pathetic. Really disappointed me.

To speak as a free spirit, I am a member of the School of Affects, which is to say, my feelings devour me. A wretched compassion, a wretched disappointment, a wretched feeling of wounded pride—how do I hold out? Is not pity a feeling made in hell? What should I do? Every morning I doubt whether I'll survive the day. I no longer sleep: what good is it if I go hiking for eight hours? Whence these towering affects in me? Oh, for some ice! Yet where is there ice for me? Tonight I shall take so much opium that my reason will go astray: Where is there a human being one can still respect? But I know you all through and through!

This written by a 38 year old man. And there's a lot worse.

>mfw Christianity and the belief that spreading the word of God was best for the world was what caused European empires to expand and become strong

Religion is strength, friends.

>>2947002

He's a brilliant philosopher, no doubt, but took himself far too seriously (as accords with his philosophy) and ended up writing like an ass. He lived in syphilitic solitude and thought he was an artist. No one around to tell him otherwise. And Wagner fucked with his head.

I identify with what he's expressing here on some level, but not at all with how he expresses it. The poetry is REALLY bad, at least in English.

About the opium thing (the sentiment again I can relate to, but he sounds like a whiny teenager) -- I thought Nietzsche was totally ascetic? Like no booze, no drugs, no smoking, one meal a day kind of ascetic.

>>2947002
A sick 38 year old philology scholar in almost permanent physical pain (when he says "I can't sleep" it is probably pretty literal) and whose nervous system perhaps was already being damaged by syphilis. But yes he was still a bit of a wimp probably. Nietzsche himself wasn't the ubermensch and didn't fancied himself as such. He was the one wh distinguished the ubermensch as a possibility of the human existence (to phrase rudely, accordingly to my rude understanding of Nietzsche).

>>2947016
You can't deny that he was quite harsh to himself. Living in sickness and loneliness and being listened to by nobody when you have plenty of things to say can probably drive you to the the state of mind examplified in anon's post.

>>2947016
>one meal a day kind of ascetic.

At one point he would eat nothing but dates and prunes, stuffing himself daily to the point where it ruined his digestive tract and left him huddled over clutching his stomach. I never knew he was a junky though.

He had terrible health and no easy life of course (he probably took opium when he had migraines since that was pretty much the only pain medicine available, doesn't make him a junky), but he probably made everything worse by his weird ascetic regime and harshness and dietary experimentation.

I just find it really painful to see such a great mind descent into a miserable heap of shit. When you read his letters towards the end it is truly terrible if you have any affinity for the man.

>>2947037
Also don't be so sure about the whole syphilis thing, it's never been proven and there are other options, one of them being a brain tumor (I believe his father died of brain cancer or the like) which may explain earlier pains and symptoms, the madness and also his descent into a passive state for about ten years. When such a growth starts pushing buttons in the brain things can go weird very quickly.

>>2947047
You don't say

>>2946820
Now that's a curious sort of thought.
What was aztec morality like?

>>2946668
>recursive fractal type being

Would you mind elucidating on this concept?
I have a vague notion of the mathematical idea of a fractal, but do not understand what you mean.

>>2947271
religion was closely intertwined with what was right and wrong. I'm not sure such a nonreligious aztec society could exist

>Nietzsche

entry level shit

>>2947012
I would say that in that sense, religion - in this case Christianity - was really a tool utilised by monarchs and merchants - the opportunistic, empire-building kind of merchant - to help justify their actions to a public already embroiled in the slave morality. It was just a facilitating tool owing to it's convenient missionary element which is easily enough corrupted to mean whatever those in power want it to mean (as is well known).

I would be bold enough to say that perhaps the european colonial empires were created in-spite of Christianity, rather than because of it - if you're talking about the actual "words of christ" (the "raw essence") as opposed to the fabricated, politico-religious explications (justifications) of the sort made in the era of empire building.

I'm trying to understand how the pre-constantine Roman empire could relate to Nietzsche...

>>2947012
>Religion is strength, friends.

Conviction provides the strength - the actual religion you mention itself promotes "weakness".

Other religions, other ideas, can provide conviction; you just have to find the right one.

>>2947293
>entry level shit
The only people who think that are the usual sort of edgy, angst-ridden teen that picks up Beyond Good and Evil, understanding nothing, and discarding it as "a bunch of poems and shit".

In a word, the most of the retards that populate /lit/.

>>2947293
Explain yourself, proving that you've actually read and understood Nietzsche. If you can't, go on comfortably pretending that you're justified in your baseless opinions. We all love our delusions.

>>2945155
I'm unsure what exactly you consider "Christian" thought to consist of, or what therein constitutes "weakness". I assume given your decision to post Nietzsche you are taking aim at the concept of "prescriptive morality" which is in no way limited to Christianity. If by "free" you mean mitigate then yes. If by "free" you mean eliminate then no.

This is the worst fucking thread ive ever seen on lit. You should all be ashamed, what you are doing is the equivalent of taking a shit in the middle of your kitchen, and walking through it day after day for a week, whilst continuing to shit there.

>>2947336
shitting in your kitchen isn't inherently bad a hurrdurr, just like not having morality

>>2947339
Because Christian morals are the only form of morality right?

>>2945201

Maybe necessary within a civil society. But humanists are similar to Christians in that they believe that giving a moral compass to foreign policy will provide the best possible outcome.

This has been on my mind a lot OP, It is crazy how influenced our culture is by Christianity!!!1

rump