/lit/ - Literature

Second wave feminism is where all the man-hate that so many people on 4chan are butthurt about originates, is it not?

All I know about feminism I know from reading Emma Goldman, Judith Butler, and Bell Hooks.

My opinion of it is more positive than that of most people I see on this website.

Butler and Hooks are third wave, right?

>>2910285

Yes, which is why I want to talk about the transition to thirdwave, and the differences between the two. Let's keep this conversation civil, shall we?

>>2910287

Butler is, yes, not sure about hooks, never read her work, but I'd assume so, seeing as she was writing in the 90s

>>2910295
>Yes, which is why I want to talk about the transition to thirdwave, and the differences between the two. Let's keep this conversation civil, shall we?
That's exactly why I brought it up. To preempt any concerns /lit/ might have by separating what upsets people from what we're discussing.

I much prefer 2nd wave feminism, since it is more rigorous and respectable from a philosophical standpoint. 3rd wave is corrupted by same sloppy thinking that undermines so much postmodern, new age nonsense.

But, since OP wants this thread to remain civil, I will stop posting.

>>2910299

Well, you can post your disagreements on third-wave, just try not to focus on second wave theory. You can bring it in as comparison, but the purpose here is to discuss the second wave. Though if you can't be civil about it, then I would request you to do stop posting.

As far as your claim, wouldn't the opposite be true? Second wave was plagued by lack of research and a huge amount of literature and a good bit of philosphy, while the third wave is almost all research and very little literature.

>>2910310

isn't to discuss the second wave*

My bad

Also, tripfagging for this thread. This is the OP

Feminism is synonymous with Misandry. All it teaches is to blame your shortcomings on a fictional suppression by tyrannical men.

We need to be focusing on equality for all sexes, and that means the numerous aspects of society where men are the underdog too. To focus on one sex is just as bad as saying "Oh I support cancer research, but fuck parkinsons and alzheimer's" We need to focus on the whole field, not exaggerated sections with slogans and buzzwords.

>chemo thread
>The topic of the day is, third-wave feminist literature and philosophy

Bell Hooks - Feminism is for Everybody
>amazing book that discusses feminism in a way that shows how it benefits everyone rather than just women, shows the pitfalls (hatred toward men, using feminist rhetoric to get ahead of other women rather than to create equality for all women, etc.) into which some feminists fall, etc., and discusses privilege without using it as a buzzword or to say "men don't matter"
http://excoradfeminisms.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/bell_hooks-feminism_is_for_everybody.pdf

>>2910320
>"Oh I support cancer research, but fuck parkinsons and alzheimer's"
No. It's more like saying "I'm researching cancer. I can't research every disease in existence, and limiting my scope means at least I'm more likely to make progress in some area."

>>2910327
>>discusses privilege without using it as a buzzword or to say "men don't matter"
Interesting. Will read. Don't let me down, /lit/.

>>2910325
If it was a troll it would've been about second wave feminism.

>>2910320

>We need to be focusing on equality for all sexes, and that means the numerous aspects of society where men are the underdog too.

Which is a third wave idea. I know it's tough to think it is, when a lot of what you see are tumblr feminists who confuse third and second wave. What a lot of them do is bring in ideas such as privilege and "racism is prejudice plus power", and then attach it to the anger and paranoia of second wave feminism.

What many don't realize is that everyone has privilege and oppression, and everyone has power, just in different levels, and they aren't static, they are constantly moving based upon the situation at hand. A black man might not have as much power as a white man in the general population, but they definitely have much more power than a white man when the black man is in a black church. The idea is understanding this and constantly checking your decisions to make sure you're not oppressing someone. There is no one with no power and there is no one with all the power.

>>2910339
Surely you're talking about egalitarianism?

I just thought I should bring this up, by the way.

>>/pol/4898222

198 replies

Similar thing happened on /lit/ last night....someone made a thread about false rape accusations. 200 or so replies before I got off and went to bed. This is why we need /pol/ related chemo.

>>2910281

This might help OP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism

I advise everyone who is posting in this thread or thinking about posting in this thread to read the two articles. They're short.

>>2910342
That's what third wave feminism is about. It just narrows its scope for the reason implied here: >>2910331

I can't find the book in OP's image anywhere online for pirating.

>>2910327
2nding this book by bell hooks. Her writing is very clear and the books are logically structured. As much as I like Judith Butler, she's a terrible writer.

>>2910320
>Feminism is synonymous with Misandry
Nope, this is just a strawman you've created in your head because you perceive feminism to be threatening. Try reading the bell hooks book.

The Bell Hooks book in this thread is the only thing on feminism that I've read.

What should I read next?

>>2910363

I actually bought that one. It sits upon my bookshelf, being all awesome and shit...though it's obvious it's a transition book. She talks about being transgender twice, and both times are filled with misconceptions. Otherwise, the book is a great look at the social contract. Unfortunately, she claims the current contract (The Constitution) can't be saved, and must be re-written or heavily amended with equality of race, gender, ethnicity and all of that in mind. A CRT book, "The racial contract" by Charles W. Mills, basically claims many of the same things, but claims the social contract is it is instituted, is worth saving and only needs slight changes.

>>2910372

See, the problem that I brought up in the beginning, is that there aren't very many books on third wave topics, and most of the ones that do exist are philosophical books, theory, or the like. Most of third wave feminism is stored within the confines of research papers and social science journals.

Anyone know of any books that aren't philosophical or scientific and are about third wave feminism?

>>2910381
Emma Goldman is my favorite feminist figure because I already have anarchist tendencies, so I'm not going to be offended by anti-constitutional opinions.

>>2910394

Eh, I'm fine with that. It's more opinion as to where we need to go from here, that differs between the two books. The look at the current situation is basically the same and spot on. I prefer Mills' method. He claims the big changes need to be made de facto, rather than de jure

>>2910281

>this thread
>20 replies
>thread last night
>200 replies

Looks like you failed, OP...don't worry, just let the cancer consume us. It's easier that way.

why the fuck does /pol/ troll here?

is it just one or two comitted wankers... or is it mroe widespread?

>>2910392
I actually had a bunch of very informative readings in a W&GS class I took last year. Let me dig up the syllabus and post some of our readings. Their emphasis was on issues relating to class and culture, as the wiki article pointed out. One very good read was about this woman who wrote about feminism in Egypt and how different mosques catered to different clientele. She explained their differing attitudes towards things like the hijab and gave an argument for why.

Ehrenreich, Barbara, and Arlie Hochschild, eds. 2002 Global Woman: Nannies, Maids, and Sex Workers in the New Economy.

This was a nice intro to a huge new topic in feminism. They were a series of essays on particular topics like domestic workers, sex workers and migrant labor. I've attached a pic showing how remittances (migrants sending money home, for example) are actually now the largest capital flow in the global economy. And as my economics professor said, "And we know nothing about it. Western Union and Moneygram know about it, but people have only started to research this topic."

Stoler, Ann. 2002 Carnal Knowledge and Imperial Power: Gender, Race, and Morality in Colonial Asia.

Ann Stoler has come up in different classes I've taken, her analysis is very original. She refuses the Marxist position and only looks instead at relations of power, and how that changes over time (ala Foucault). Foucault of course didn't bring in factors of race, gender, or class, his task was big enough.

Williams, Patricia. 2001 On being the object of property. in Theorizing Feminism: Parallel Trends in the Humanities and Social Sciences.

Mahmood, Saba 2004. Politics of Piety: The Islamic Revival and the Feminist Subject.

>>2910424

Yes, but, again that's all research and theory. Where is the third wave Hearing Trumpet? Third wave is very devoid of art and fiction. It was possibly one of the few things that made second wave in the least bit enjoyable for me.

Though, I have to say, those topics are interesting. I've read Stoler's work before. And sex work is in a very interesting position in Third wave that I think many one 4chan would enjoy.

>>2910416

I don't know, but /pol/ related topics have been popping up more and more. I really don't want to see cuckolding threads on /lit/, but I fear that's where we're heading.

I'll also recommend this book. Think of it as a historical analysis with a feminist perspective. Won the Bancroft Prize in 2010. It's a fresh historical take on the development of Indian boarding schools, one where white middle class women are the central protagonist. Explains how ideas of femininity, domesticity, and suffrage in the US progressive era attracted many white women to the task of removing children from Indian families and teaching them in boarding schools. Not feminism per se, but I think feminist thinking was a precondition for a book like this to come about.

>>2910432
Oh, I see, you're looking for subjective products.

This comes to mind. I'll probably remember other stuff as time goes on, but try this for starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Easy_Pieces

>>2910435

>but I think feminist thinking was a precondition for a book like this to come about.

Do you mind elaborating? I have an interest in Native cultures, particularly Native Americans, and the deculturization period of U.S./Native relations always interested me. Might pick this up. Good stuff!

Instead of "Third-wave feminism" which apparently seeks to address all cases of sexism, regardless of gender, why don't they call themselves "Anti-Sexism" or something.

Also pic related, feminism is now a joke laughed at by all reasonable people in the west.

>>2910441

See, this is something that I've seen a lot within third wave circles. Performance art is everywhere, but nothing seems to be written down.

http://nurshaproject.com/our-artists/mildred

I met her a couple years ago, and I suggested that she write a book. She gave me this funny look, like I said something unheard of. I don't know, maybe I'm too much of a prose-lover

>>2910450
Well, feminism posited the woman as a subject worthy of attention. For history, this means going back to the archives and looking for what women did in any given period. If you read any book about history before the 60s and 70s, there will be zero mentions of any women. It's still the case today to some extent. If you pick up any given history book you are far less likely to find women in the narrative, but lately historians have been taking more seriously a duty of incorporating gender and class into analysis.

I read a fair amount of Second Wave feminism back in the day: Friedan, Millett, Dworkin, Daly, McKinnon, Brownmiller, etc.
I don't know much about Third Wave. Does Faludi count? I skimmed Backlash and read Stiffed.
Note that Friedan and Millett were much more open to the idea that men are constrained by stereotypes than people like Brownmiller and Daly were.
I think bell hooks was writing in the mid-80s, never read anything by her though.

>>2910452

>Implying there's no root in third wave feminism from first and second wave feminism.
>Implying changing the name would make you less angry and confused.


>Implying first wave feminism wasn't considered a Joke by most "reasonable" people of the time.

If you're going to post like a troll, I'm going to respond like a troll.

Also,

>Any year
>Not understanding the Slutwalk and the re-appropriation of the word "Slut"

ISHIGGYDIGGY

Of all the incredible books in the world, why would you waste your time reading some stuffy old hag's diary of how men leering at her when she was younger is the worst evil that can possibly be committed?

>>2910467

Bell was writing during the transitional period of the late 80s to the early nineties, and whose work is one of the foundations of third-wave.

It's harder to catagorize Faludi, but she's definitely more second wave than third. Once more, she was writing during the transitional period, so ideas were mixed, and there were many more feminists espousing mixed ideas rather than the strong dichotomy you see today between second and third wave feminists.

>>2910463

Ah, I didn't see the phrase. "this book." I thought you meant how feminism caused the taking in of Native children and "re-education" (which is putting it mildly). The question still stands, but I understand that as well. There's a huge amount of historians looking back and seeing where important women took the reins of history within their grasp. Unfortunately, this leads to a few historians that put undue emphasis on certain figures, and than many outside the historical ring that point to this as "revisionism"

>>2910452
I don't know why we should be laughing at slutwalks. People like to have sex, no? Why should people be ashamed of enjoying sex?

Second, I think it's just extremely difficult to overcome historical labels. I mean, why are the Democrats in the US called "liberals" and the Republicans called "conservatives?" It seems to me the other way around: Democrats want to preserve an order established under FDR (the social welfare state) and Republicans are the ones who liberalize economy and who want radical change.

Lastly, third wave feminism has a big attention to body. Hence the performance art. Even the scholarly literature analyzes attitudes toward the body as a way of explaining morality. Once you've won battles like suffrage, there remains the culture and psychology to contend with. I recommend watching this documentary "Miss Representation" if you think these matters are trivial.

trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5pM1fW6hNs

On the other hand, there is a part of me that agrees with you. I mean, similarly, aren't workers rights movements just the braying of a privileged class in society that has slowly been losing their ground? What does it say about your place in society if the most important issue to one's identity is stuff like being cis or trans? These problems can only be perceived from a position of affluence and education.

>>2910478
What books/articles do you recommend as a summary of third wave?
I looked at the Wikipedia article linked above and recognized some of the themes, but I don't think I have read any books that stand out as representative of those themes.

>>2910477
Another fantastic strawman. I've read the books I've posted to this thread, and none of them are like that.

>>2910488

>third wave attention to body

But, that's wrong. Second wave had an attention to body, third wave is more to mind. Second wave had an essentialist definition of morality. The only reason there is any focus on the body within third wave feminism is to expel beliefs held by second wave feminism.

>What does it say about your place in society if the most important issue to one's identity is stuff like being cis or trans?

This is an idea that many argue about til their blue in the face on tumblr. It's a misconception about those who fight for rights issues or feminism, that it's the only thing they fight for, and it only matters within that arena, on that level of identity. Those claiming to be third wavers usually don't take a wholistic approach to privilege, identity, and oppression, they only see their own "kind" and "solidarity" to fight for "justice". What they forget, is that third wave is all about destroying those ideas.

>>2910489

There really is no summary of third wave out there. All of what I know is from years of reading different ideas. It's constantly changing and evolving.

My biggest piece of advice is to stay away from anyone on the internet who claims to be third wave on a message board. Unless they can credential themselves, just ignore them. I know it's sorta hypocritical of me to say that since I haven't credentialed myself, but I promise you it'll save you a lot of trouble when you actually speak to a third wave feminist and you're not weighted down with the self-imposed strawmen and misunderstandings of what some have started to call "hobby-feminists"

>>2910295
He's right. bell hooks would count as third wave. She was doing a lot of similar work to Laura Mulvey.

Thoughts on Dodie Bellamy? How about Kate Zambreno?

>>2910516
OK, I guess I should have said "can you recommend any books that, if I read them, would flesh out my understanding of third wave".

>>2910539

Well, if you want to talk about the way policy is seen, my OP book choice is pretty good.

I'm drawing blanks as far as papers. I graduated two years ago, and have since been cut off from using the journals that publish the stuff, and my curricula are all stored away somewhere. I can probably tell you who to stay away from better than who to read.

If you want, Butler's "Undoing Gender" is a great piece of deconstructionalist work

If you want to look at sexuality and shame, Naomi Wolf is great.

If you want to look at the roots of third wave in second wave, Simone De Bouvior is pretty big, and is sometimes credited as the mother of modern day feminism.

What I think is hilarious is that Judith Butler has written extensively against some of the practices Israel have employed in seeking dominance of Palestinian lands. /pol/'s biggest love, hating israel, is fought for by a feminist.

"Violence is boyhood socialization. The way we 'turn boys into men' is through injury… We take them away from their feelings, from sensitivity to others. The very phrase 'be a man' means suck it up and keep going. Disconnection is not fallout from traditional masculinity. Disconnection is masculinity."

~ Bell Hooks

Awful.

Fuck signboard culture and fuck the idea that masculinity is a bad thing.

>>2910550

It's not bad, it's just way overvalued.

>>2910548
>>2910550

The entire point of the book you're quoting from is that masculinity isn't just hurting women, it's hurting men as well. "Toxic masculinity" is a real thing. You have no idea how many problems psychologists have to deal with because of it.

Masculinity isn't bad, but it's current incarnation is.

>>2910547
Fought for by an ethnically Jewish feminist, to boot.

>>2910548
Wow, I like that. I'll have to read her.

>>2910558
I'll read the whole book when I have time, but how would masculinity lead to psychology visits? Wouldn't a man going to see a psychologist be the result of some feminization (ie express your feelings and emotions, don't tough it out)?

>>2910567
*psychologist

>>2910554
>overvalued

If masculinity is what it takes to get power in this world, then how is it overvalued?

>>2910567
Society's pressure for men to act in ways considered masculine leads to men needing therapy.

>>2910567

Eventually, many men do break from their masculinity and go see a psychologist. The fact that they have to "break" from their masculinity to seek mental help is exactly the reason masculinity in it's current form is toxic.

"Toughing it out" is never a good idea, it usually leads to people becoming unable to express themselves outside of violent fits of anger, or manic swings in personality.

Also, "toughening up" and living up to unrealistic expectations of masculinity usually leads to depression. The entire idea of a mid-life crisis is proof enough for that.

>>2910548

I hate this idea that talking about your problems or embracing your 'feminine side' is always a good thing. Sure it helps a lot of men cope,but doesn't brushing off physical or emotional harm and not letting it affect you demonstrate strength of will and character? The former is often necessary, but the latter should always be seen as the ideal.

>>2910572
Having to kowtow to society's idea of masculinity demonstrates a lack of power.

>>2910575
What, then, is the ideal form of masculinity?

>>2910578
>doesn't brushing off physical or emotional harm and not letting it affect you demonstrate strength of will and character?
Learning to deal with that stuff demonstrates strength of character. Brushing it off is ignoring it and hoping it goes away. That's cowardice.

>>2910583
The same as the ideal form of femininity. Know yourself, understand yourself, become at peace with the world around you, free yourself of impulse and fear, and shape the future in which you and others want to live.

I'm not the person you were asking, by the way.

>>2910578

Not really...the ideal should be knowing when you need help. Have you never heard the phrase. "A child gets up and tries again until he is hurt. A man asks for help."

That's a pretty old one.

>>2910578
That's why the quote bothered me. I think getting through certain issues on my own has been very rewarding for my confidence and my character.

But I don't really see that as an issue of masculinity, either. I think women would benefit from that just as much as men can. There are certain traumas that benefit from therapy, yes, but nobody can truly say whether it's objectively better to "suck it up" or express yourself so it seems like an unproductive point.

>>2910575

That's bull, the greatest men in history that we have good records of didn't go and cry about their problems to everyone within earshot. If they did at all they'd confide to a close friend. Adversity breeds strength, a living in a bubble where you're protected from any problems and told that "everything will be alright" leaves people completely unprepared for unexpected obstacles.

>>2910598
>the only choices are being coddled and sucking it up and never getting things off your chest
Life isn't that black and white.

>>2910600
You can deal with your problems without exactly talking to another person about them. I've done just fine.

>>2910596

But there's the problem. Masculinity in it's current form says you are to -never- seek help from anyone. Just keep going and never reflect on what you feel. That's what that quote is about. It's not saying that all trial and error learning is bad. It's saying that using only that method is a bad thing, and that is what current masculinity is about.

>>2910604
You can. But some problems are much better solved with help.

>>2910585
>Learning to deal with that stuff demonstrates strength of character. Brushing it off is ignoring it and hoping it goes away. That's cowardice.

You're twisting/misinterpreting my words. I mean that you stop the problem at the root; i.e not letting it affect you in the first place. Rather than fleeing from the problem, you should confront it and not let it bother you, rather than crying about it.

>>2910591

>A child gets up and tries again until he is hurt. A man ignores the pain and keeps trying.

FTFY

>>2910610
>A child gets up and tries again until he is hurt. A man considers the situation and whether he can reasonably succeed on his own. If so, he does so. If not, he gets help. If no one can help, he continues on his own until he succeeds, because strength comes from persistence and courage, but not from recklessly rejecting help when it's available.
FTFY

>>2910617

>>2910600

I understand that, but it often is. I'm not saying you should never seek help/counselling, but it should be a last resort if you want to improve yourself as a person.

>>2910610

>A man ignores the pain and keeps trying.

Until he is dead? Or in prison? Or driven insane? Eventually you have to let your feelings out. Everyone does. Show me a man who has never cried, or loved something, or confided in anyone, and I will concede my point.

Your idea of what makes a man is ridiculous and impossible.

>I mean that you stop the problem at the root

What if the problem doesn't have a root? Or the root of the problem is too big for you to handle on your own? What then?

>>2910622
But that goes for men and women. Men are often told not to seek help even as a last resort. That it's wrong to ever need help with anything. So rather than seeking help as a last resort, they wallow in misery.

>>2910617

That seems to be a reasonable compromise between what Mr. Third Wave has been saying and what I have. Bravo.

>>2910617

And if that was how masculinity was viewed, I would have no problems.

>>2910567
>>2910578
>>2910598
>>2910610
What if, say, you get depressed because you suffer from bouts of ED? What do you do with your ideals of being an inexhaustible stud in bed then? How will you face that adversity? It's not feminine to be able to cope with something. I don't think your idea of masculinity - confronting things head-on and be done with it - has any room for that kind of negotiation.

>>2910617
that's a form of chivalry, most men would rather die than ask for help. you know this is true.

>>2910617
this really should go for anyone be them male or female.

>>2910624

I might have got a bit silly there. But I still think it's important to confront your problems on your own through force of will rather than immediately seeking help, which is what you seem to be advocating.

>>2910617
>>2910629
>>2910630

>people agreeing on the internet
>people agreeing ON FUCKING 4CHAN

This thread is now official Chemo

>>2910632
I agree. I was using the format from the previous statements (saying "man") but I could say "adult" and consider it just as true.

>>2910633
see
>>2910617

>>2910633

I don't advocate going to help at every little problem, but I do advocate knowing when you need help, and not feeling ashamed or emasculated when you are getting help.

>>2910598
>they'd confide to a close friend

that's exactly what therapy is though, except instead of a friend it's some guy you pay

just because you express feelings doesn't mean you are crying or emotional. it just means you talk about the way you are feeling, you identify it and understand it instead of being confused by it.

>>2910645
What's your opinion on (consensual) erotic humiliation? It seems to generally rely on preconceptions about gender and sexuality. Do you think it's wrong because it reinforces gender stereotypes (i.e., a woman who likes sex is a "slut" and a man who's less masculine is a "sissy") and if so, do you believe it's possible to construct a form of humiliation play that's not based in such preconceptions?

>>2910631

I'm talking about mental problems more than anything. If someone had ED, I'd think it completely reasonable to see a doctor about, as there is no other way to deal with the problem.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. You lose your job and your wife and wallow in misery for the next 6 months. Man A seeks help and has counselling and is prescribed anti-depressants. Within a year he is back on his feet and happy again. Problem solved.

Man B conquers his depression and improves his life through sheer force of will. Within a year he is back on his feet and happy again. Problem solved.

They've both achieved the same outcome, but Man B has taken the much more difficult and arduous approach. Likely he will come out of the situation mentally stronger and will be able to deal with everyday problems better in the future. For me, at least, this is the hallmarks of a great man. There is no shame in Man A's choice, but it is not the ideal.

>What do you do with your ideals of being an inexhaustible stud in bed then?

When did I say that?

>>2910644

I hadn't read that when I replied.

>>2910654

Ah, a very tough question. This became a sticking point for many second wave feminists, and is the reason that they are against pornography and prostitution.

Third wave is much better constructed and has a better flow between it's ideas. Thanks to the sex-positivity, fetish is accepted, and thanks to the ideas on power-structure, everyone has power to a certain extent, and you can cede your power consensually, as long as real freedoms are not curtailed. As long as you can say "no" or whatever word you pick, and everything stops, you can do whatever you'd like.

Pateman and especially Mills talk about this a lot, as far as the conceptions of power and control. They are social constructs, just like race and gender are social constructs, HOWEVER, and this is where many "hobby feminists" stop reading, social constructs are just as important as actual genetic and uncontrollable differences. THE DIFFERENCE is that you can control and change social constructs for the better.

Being "black" is a social construct based upon your heritage, your culture, and the way in which you were brought up understanding yourself and others, just as much as it is an extension of your skin color. Skin color is just the signifier that you are "part" of the culture, and is an arbitrary choice of divide. If you think it's not, I advise you looking into one of the founders of the NAACP, who spent most of his life living as a white man. His culture was important, and it affected things. The only difference is, that culture can be changed for the better, where as your skin color cannot really be changed.

>>2910661
Ideally, Man A seeks help and has counseling and learns how to deal with his sadness, and due to the fact that he's sad for concrete reasons rather than suffering from depression, he's able to get back on his feet within six months and has also mentally stronger and more able to deal with problems in the future. Man B takes a year and doesn't benefit from the advice of someone who's studied psychology.

>>2910667
There are third-wave feminists who oppose pornography (or at least oppose it in its current form) and prostitution (or at least think it has no place in society until equality has been achieved).

>>2910678

How do you know it'd take twice as long? You've completely missed the point.

>>2910661

But why is ideal? And what lasting scars did Man B receive in conquering his depression? If the outcomes are the EXACT same, then yes, Man B would have followed closer to what is considered ideal masculinity. But, when are the outcomes ever the same in that situation?

Also, if it turns out that more people turn out in a better situation taking Man A's route, then why not adapt that into masculinity?

>What do you do with your ideals of being an inexhaustible stud in bed then?

One of the many ideals of Masculinity.

>>2910680

Yes, but the vast majority aren't opposed to them. Unlike in second wave, where -everyone- was against them.

>>2910678
You don't need a paid psychologist to figure out your own problems, who said Man B dosen't have rudimentary knowledge of psychology or at least has the means o figure out his own problems? I'll be fucked before I pay somebody to tell me about my own problems.

In society we ALL need to contribute. Either mentally to bettering society, or physically, as in manual labour and military. Now women are weaker than men so are unable to contribute to the same level as men. Therefore their value to society is lower than that of a mans. This will always be true.

>>2910689

Psychologists aren't there to tell you about your problems. They're there to be confided in, to offer fresh perspectives and advice. The first few sessions are usually there to get to know you, to talk about what you're going through, feeling, experiences, all that stuff.

This is one of the big reasons current masculinity is toxic, though. Men feel as though they are ceding power to someone by seeking help.

>>2910692

>>2910694
Why do I need to confide in anyone? If I was the man who lost my job and wife, I'd be upset, I might wallow in it for a couple days.

But then I'd look at my situation, see the problem-I'm depressed because I have no job, and my wife left me. So, the solution would be to get another job, and spend time with other people.

How would going to a psychologist help me? I'd feel it's a waste of my time. What I need to do is apply for a new job, not talk about my problems. My goal is to get a job. The way to achieve that is to apply for jobs.

>>2910694

The problem I have with your ideas is that whereas each extreme would be fine (either instilling the idea that resistance to emotional harm is virtuous until the problem, as a whole, is eliminated, or telling men they should seek help when they face adversity) the transitional phase between each of the two will be very damaging as men will be confused as to which is the best option. The transition would take a long time and many will suffer as a result. As we are currently closer to the former, I would argue that the former is the more pragmatic option.

>>2910703

The way that came out was a bit clunky, sorry.

>>2910702

Well, you're creating a fictional story that agrees with you. Real life is never so easy or black and white. But I'll still bite. A psychologist would be good to talk about why you lost your job, how can you repackage yourself at a late age to get a new job, any lingering feelings of doubt in yourself, why your wife's love was conditional on you having a job, how to feel attractive in a culture that values youth, etc.

>>2910703

The extremes are the problem though. There's no "transition period from one extreme to the other." It's about slow changes towards a less extreme and essentialist view of masculinity and femininity.

>>2910694
>Men feel as though they are ceding power to someone by seeking help.

Men need to feel they are capable. It's why we don't like to ask for directions. It makes us look like we don't know what we're doing. Navigation is a really manly thing. Men are expected to read a map, and find places.

I just go by what I'm good at. My mom, for instance likes to build things. She's good with power tools, and home improvement things. That's a really masculine hobby, building things. I don't really have an issue with letting her take the lead, because I'm not as skilled as her in that.

I don't really have an issue with women being better than me at masculine things like that, or making more money than me, whatever. I still hate asking for directions though, it's embarassing.

>>2910733

Why is it embarrassing though? To admit you don't know something? Is that really something to feel embarrassment over? If it is, than the entire human race should be red in the face every day.

>>2910739
>If it is, than the entire human race should be red in the face every day.

People mock their own ignorance with nervous laughter every single day, you've seen it.

>>2910743

Why does the laughter need to be nervous? Why do we need to mock our ignorance? We need to understand ignorance is not the desired state, but it is not a bad state to be in, as long as you are prepared to try and make yourself knowledgeable. Why is that so hard?

>>2910745
You should find the people who do that shit and ask them.

>>2910726
I was just using your example. If I was in that situation, that's how I would deal with it. I'd look at the problems, and find solutions to them.

I'm not a real emotional guy though. Maybe some guys do need that emotional support, everyone is different. I'm not saying every case is black and white, I'm just saying that's what I would do if I were in that situation.

I get what they would do, just I personally don't see the need for it for myself. I've been in tough situations in life like that, and really, you just have to want it.

If you go around feeling sorry for yourself because you have no job, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. A man needs to be confident, and make things happen.

If it affects your life, then I'd see a psychiatrist. If I was too depressed to hold a job or something, or something major like that. Or I had a disease, like bipolar disorder, depression, etc, I'd go.

It depends on the reason I lost my job if I'd go. If I was too depressed to function, yes. If I lost my job because I got laid off, company downsized, whatever, then no, I wouldn't see a psychologist.

They do have value in society, I'm not saying they don't.

And about the wife's love conditional on having a job. Financial problems=love life problems. When I've had financial problems, I've had girlfriend problems. The two are one in the same.

>>2910702
>>2910733
I wouldn't say "every man who has a problem should immediately run to a psychologist". I don't think anyone in this thread was suggesting that (I could be wrong). [Other-gender analogy: no one in Second Wave feminism was saying that all women should get jobs outside the home.]
However, the evidence that men don't get help with problems enough is all around us. Men have at least a 2x higher suicide rate than women in Western countries. Men commit more violent acts against other people (both men and women) and are incarcerated at higher rates. [Other-gender analogy: women in the 1950s and 1960s were paid much less for the same work as men.]
You might say that men are naturally more aggressive. [Other-gender analogy: that women are naturally more interested in staying home to take care of children.] Even if this is true, (1) we have no way of saying how much of the suicide/incarceration/etc. rates are the result of biology and how much from the structure of our society, and (2) we see all around us every day how our societal structure can change and partly negate the effects of our biology.

There really isn't any time for therapy sessions in a world driven by conflict and war.

The little men who spent their lives in therapy will be forgotten to time and the course of the world will change through the strong and the violent as it always has and always will.

>>2910754
Yeah, I agree. It's not that everyone should see a psychologist/women work, just the option is there if you want it.

The male crime rate/suicide rate is a combination of both society, and biology. Men are naturally more aggressive.

If you have a man and a woman coming from the same home, the man will be more likely to commit crime/kill himself. Testosterone makes you more aggressive, it's no surprise the majority of violent crime is committed by men.

And with society, obviously if you grow up in a low income home, you'll be more exposed to crime, and have less opportunities in life, so a life of crime sounds like a more appealing option, than if you grew up in a stable middle class home.

The women being paid less is changing. Now, more women than men attend/graduate college. I would argue women don't negotiate as aggressively as men on average, and that's a reason why they don't get paid as much. But like I said, the pay gap is shrinking nowadays.

All this talk of the coercive mimeticism of masculinity provides a good moment for us to all consider that even men can be victims of a patriarchal society.

>>2910769
Which is discussed in "Feminism is for Everybody."

I think everyone should read that book.

>>2910766
And yet in Hopi society, and Amish society, and Quaker society, and many other societies, men are nowhere near as aggressive as in modern Western society. The most violent acts that the Amish men commit are cutting off one another's beards.
On the other extreme, we have the aggressiveness of the Spartans, or the 17th-century Iroquois, or the Chetniks in the 1990s.
Are the Amish more representative of biological reality, or the Chetniks, or us? Are we in the Goldilocks zone, "just right"? How does anyone know? Does it even matter?
We have the power to examine our lives and our society, and push for changes to things we think are wrong, regardless of what we think our biology is telling us to do.

>>2910769
I never thought that the patriarchal nature of our society was the most important aspect of it with respect to gender roles.

>>2910779
That innate aggression is channeled to whatever it needs to be used for, for the Amish it could be farming or whatever the fuck. The Spartans were warlike people so they killed shit and brought home the loot.

At any rate we see that the men the providers and females were the nurturers. That's the framework healthy society are based around, trying to modify the natural order just brings problems.

>>2910791
>The Spartans were warlike people so they killed shit and brought home the loot.
The Athenians were the expansionists. The Spartans were war like due to large slave populations.

>>2910791

>That's the framework healthy society are based around, trying to modify the natural order just brings problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy

0/10

>>2910779
>Amish
Repression is violence.

Feminism is irrelevant to me.

And you know what, I am bitter a little.

Women have it so easy in the dating world that I honestly could care less if they only make 3/4 of what a man makes, despite the fact that there's still evidence to suggest that women make less due to their own choices.

But in conclusion, there's a good chance this will turn into a shitstorm and I don't think this is going to help /lit/ at all.

>>2910814
>there's a good chance this will turn into a shitstorm
When? Over 120 posts and it isn't one yet.

>>2910819
Then that's remarkable, because the last 3 feminism threads we had were horrific.

>>2910821
People early in the thread were careful to distinguish between second wave feminism, which has a lot of the knee-jerk, man-hating aspects, and third wave feminism, which discusses equality in a rational manner.

I don't visit or lurk /lit/ but why was the Ayn Rand clause removed? Don't want to create a new thread because it would bump off another one.

>>2910824
Well, third-wave is arguable, but I think that's because third-wave is somehow transitioning to some kind of pseudo-fourth-wave, with all this Tumblr bullshit.

Either way, at least everyone isn't angry.

>Go to dinner
>Come back
>People still posting

Holy fuck! You guys are awesome...perhaps there is hope for /lit/ after all.

>>2910826
I guess because it's literature.

>>2910829

Actually, tumblr is just degraded, horribly understood third-wave. Just like Rand >>2910826 is degraded, horribly understood Kierkegaard.

There is a small movement who is calling for a "fourth wave", but it's basically the same thing as third-wave with an included focus on spirituality, and third wave has already co-opted that, so...yeah, no fourth wave yet.

>>2910840
Rand is degraded, horribly understood Nietzsche.

>>2910829
The tumblr (wo)myn nad cis- stuff is really behind the times. I also feel it's missing the point of what people like Irigaray were trying to say.

>>2910844

Oops! My bad....sorry >.< I just got back on, and it's getting late here.

>>2910840
>>2910847
Points taken, but I'm not going to get into an argument because this thread is actually nice and if I try to disagree right now I'll just get angry and busy on what should be a relaxing Friday night.

>>2910847

The (wo)myn stuff is behind the times. The Cis stuff is up to date, just really poorly understood, and spouted off like the people posting were authorities on trans rights and all transgender experiences because they know a trans person or are a trans person.

>>2910856
Cis- to my mind ignores things like Butler's deconstruction of gender, sex and sexuality. It's very much tied up in ideas of male vs female, masculine vs feminine etc. binaries.

>>2910856

Though, I should add to this. Cis started as just a way to say "non-trans" because there was really no word for it. People on tumblr and reddit and even some real activists have used it instead as a point of derision, as a "us vs. them" type thing. The purpose of third wave is not to divide, as second wave was, but instead to come together as one human race, with prejudices about each other, that we understand and work to negate.

>>2910861
See >>2910862

And by trans in "non-trans", I mean the umbrella term of it, that being gender queer, or gender non-conforming or what have you.

>Female talk show hosts laugh at a real man who's penis was cut off and destroyed in a garbage disposal because he wanted to divorce his wife.
Feminist response:

>Male comedian laughs at a woman hypothetically being the victim of gangrape.
Feminist response: shitstorm

Feminism does not exist to help men, it is a woman's advocacy movement, plain and simple.

>>2910862
In the sense of "non-trans" I can feel comfortable with it. In that way it shows another facet of society, another binary. But, yes, the tumblr us vs them mindset and how it's used on there I can't stand since, as you say, it goes against the whole idea of third wave.

>>2910871

"There's only only two types of men, Pimps and John's
There's one type of bitch and that's a Ho"

-Richard Dawkins - Climbing Mt. Improbable

>>2910873

Well, that's where it get's tricky, because you have "transgender", and then "Trans*" or sometimes just "Trans"....It's both a specific thing (as in those who are going from MtF or FtM), and an umbrella term for individuals who do not conform to the expected gender norms of a society...I believe that's the sense in which Cis was used.

>>2910871
Read Betty Friedan's "The Feminine Mystique" or "The Second Sex", Barbara Ehrenreich's "The Hearts of Men", or Susan Faludi's "Stiffed". All of them are feminist books that don't advocate a men vs. women view, and the latter two are actually about men.

>>2911114
Good Post Mate

god i hate that stupid image... not only is it a wrong depiction of feminism, but none of that fucking shit has anything to do with postmodernism

>>2911116
Post-modernist detected.
>>>/x/

>>2910826
Because /a/ was trying to get rid of Naruto in a similar fashion and moot would rather let both boards go to shit rather then let /a/ have a Naruto ban.

>>2911114


>HURRDURR I'M A TROLL! I'MMA TROLL THIS IDIOTS CAUSE IT'S SO FAHNIE!

I'm sageing cause I'm not really adding to the conversation, but I hope you do realize that you just shit up what was probably one of the closest to perfect threads posted on this board. Fuck off, this is the reason this thread exists. /lit/ doesn't want your shit here, go back to /pol/