/lit/ - Literature

I don't like dancing.

>Shadow Puppetry not Above God tier.

It's subjective, now go away.

>>2856739
No shit, sherlock.

I agree wholeheartedly with television, what a shit medium.

>>2856738
>Dinner parties not above shadow puppetry

>>2856745
forgive the bad grammar, I didn't sleep yet

>>2856742
TV series are usually pretty much a 20x longer movies stretched out for several seasons, deprived of its entire creative vision and artistic sense, created, directed, written and acted by people of lesser talent than actual films, and dictated by ratings.

>>2856736
That you personaly don't understand how music works doesn't make it "transcendental".

>>2856745
>deprived of its entire creative vision and artistic sense
Like 'Twin Peaks' the film compared to the series.

>>2856748
Look at this fella. He doesn't even begin to comprehend the transcendence one experiences hearing A Love Supreme or the Rite of Spring for the first time.

I'm not OP and I fully understood what he meant, you pleb. Listening to music really is a transcendental experience.

>>2856745
Don't forget completely pandering to their audience and advertisers. If they don't make a marketable product it gets canceled or shelved.

>>2856742
Can we get a more in-depth discussion going? Perhaps OP can tell us his rationale for some of the choices?

Or we can discuss why TV is so shitty? Because, that is something I've been thinking about often lately. I think that TV is designed to fail, simply because of time constraints. The writers have to bang out scripts as though through some sort of script mill, so they don't have the time to prepare a decent product that's worth watching. Shows can be good for a few seasons, but they always "jump the shark" due to this insane demand of quantity over quality.

>>2856736
>God tier:
>what OP has some experience with

>Transcendental tier:
>what OP doesn't understand, but has respect for

>mid-to-low tier:
>what OP doesn't know much about, so it annoys him

>Shit tier:
>Television

Fixed for honesty.

>>2856753
>Shows can be good for a few seasons, but they always "jump the shark" due to this insane demand of quantity over quality.

recent example: Breaking Bad season 5'

>>2856736
>implying any sculpture, photo, or video game has at any time outstripped the beauty of Mad Men

>>2856751
>I'm not OP and I fully understood what he meant, you pleb. Listening to music really is a transcendental experience.
Not any more "transcendental" than experiencing any other form of art. Again, if you don't have much experience with theory of music and don't understand how music really works, so the whole experience may seem like magic to you, but it isn't.

Let me explain and let's hope it doesn't go over your head. Music is technically poetry where you approximate emotional vocalizations instead of words. A musical piece is a poem written in human vocal intonations. It's merely storytelling in a language of screams, moans, sighs and roars. Like any other form of art, it may produce pleasure, which may result in an approximation of the feeling of transcendence in some cases.

>>2856753
There are too many constraints on modern television to allow any sort of creativity.

First and foremost the entire medium is completely dependent on advertising. So most of the programming made is pandering and boring, built for the lowest common denominator. We could ignore the programming, but the constraints are universal. In 2012 a man could buy a laptop and make a masterpiece of an album, release it on his own with no intentions of commercial viability. This will always be impossible in television.

>film not at least on high tier
nigga puhlease

I don't know if this related but, what would make videogames a more "artistic" medium? Whatever that means

>>2856736
>people hating on TV

It's like The Wire, Mad Men, Seinfeld never happened.

>>2856765
Tarkovsky was a pretentious goddamn hack.

>>2856760
Michelangelo's David
Okami
pic related

I don't mean to be a dick, but you lose 3 out of 3 with Mad Men in your sleeve.

Hey guys, I've noticed that OP never actually said he was ranking them by artistic value, maybe we just assumed - maybe that's the real treasure.

>>2856764
That is an interesting distinction to make--that there can't be "indie TV". I never thought of that before, and, really, it's why the internet is becoming so much more popular than TV.

>>2856765
tarkovsky himself said film is not art.

>>2856767
>I don't know if this related but, what would make videogames a more "artistic" medium? Whatever that means
Being the products of professional writers, artists, musicians and gamedesigners, videogames are as potentially artistic as it ever got in human history.

Now, most videogames are bad art. Hate to break it to you, though, but most books, films, musical pieces, plays, paintings, sculptures and works of architecture are also bad art. Video games have less great works, because they ahve only existed for less than 50 years. The ratio of good works to bad works in video games is the same as in any other form of art.

>>2856775
okami lol

stylized crash bandicoot

>>2856778
>That is an interesting distinction to make--that there can't be "indie TV"
You-fucking-tube, you stupid cunt. And the whole video segment of the Internet. And it's even worse than the mainstream, as always.

>>2856775
>Okami
Really?
Okami
>hurr it uses old chinese style art, must be an artistic game.
NO. And Clover isn't even a good games developer, I'm glad capcom destroyed them.

>>2856779
Tarkovsky was a hack. Don't bother listening to him.

>>2856784
Did you even read his post, dude? He's clearly talking about TV separate from the internet.

>>2856764
No. Many people write shows for the love of writing. It just happens TV companies choose what sells, that does not remove the passion behind the show. Just take Breaking Bad (I'm not saying it's an artistic show) but the writer and actors for that matter are really passionate about the show.

>>2856763
But I do, in fact I have a degree in music theory. Music appreciation isn't like poetry at all. Poetry shares some aspects with music - rhythm, assonance, etc, but ultimately poetry is also about the meaning of what's being said with those words. A mostly verbal form of art.

Music on the other hand produces the sensation of entering altered states of consciousness by itself and its intrinsic, mathematical properties, its repetitions, tones and sounds. Non-verbal, immersive and mathematics-based storytelling at its core.

I can tell you've never experienced the truly great genius of music the way they're meant to be listened to.

>>2856794
Why would he do that?

>>2856769
These shows are still held back by commercial viability.

The Wire was wholly unsuccessful and while critically praised, it couldn't be made again. I wouldn't want it to be, but I'm saying the chance couldn't be taken. AMC is trying, but they are running out of ideas.

Seinfeld went out on top, but that's super rare. Seinfeld was offered a ridiculous sum of money to continue (but he was loaded already and through syndication he would never have to work again). Often these shows are like damp towels, wrung and wrung until there is nothing left.

>>2856784
We're talking about television though. Not video in general. What's piped through the cable box is a wholly different animal.

>>2856785
>old chinese art
>chinese
>>2856781
>stylized crash bandicoot

So, so easy to spot the fags who clearly didn't play the game but still think their opinion matters.

>>2856736
>tfw plebs care about the term 'art' and not realising it's merely a tool to separate the prole from the bourgeois.

Supporters of art, are supporters of an inequality based system that is elitist and petty.

>>2856806
This just in: leftist thinkers from the XXth century happen to be the great philosophers who dissected the meaning of what art actually is and what place it occupies in our consumerist society (hint: still really fucking high):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_W._Adorno

more news at 11

>>2856805
Some one is a little upset over his shitty game.
Ico, that I'd let you call art. It evokes strong emotions from the player.

Okami does not.

But hey, go ahead and explain why Okami is art. I'm now being a dick head, but wthout baking it up I could say HALO is art, and if you disagree you didn't play the game and have no opinion on the matter.

>>2856805
ok, what makes okami a good game?

>>2856801
>The Wire was wholly unsuccessful and while critically praised, it couldn't be made again.
Engrenages

>>2856806
>I have no idea what I'm talking about, lol.

>>2856805
>stylized crash bandicoot
>Chinese art
I really like Okami, but it is just stylized Zelda with Japanese art. The game was dripping with aesthetic appeal and mythology, but it just felt like a standard adventure story. The theme of individual resolve is sort of tacked on at the end.

>>2856811
>>2856810
Greatest use of cel-shading in any game, to this date, earning it several awards.
BEAUTIFUL art design, very creative blend of japanese art and 3D and what is art but the expression of human creativity?
Engaging story based no japanese mythology.
Tight and refined gameplay mechanics.
A better Zelda game than any Zelda.

>>2856799
>but ultimately poetry is also about the meaning of what's being said with those words. A mostly verbal form of art.
Same with music. You said you love Stravinsky. He moved onto more abstract work in the neoclassical period, but you said Rite of Spring, which has a program, plot and characters, AND choreography, which the music exists to serve - it's a goddamn fucking ballet, for fuck's sake, - making my point all that easier to make.

>Music on the other hand produces the sensation of entering altered states of consciousness by itself
As in, "magically"? What the fuck do you mean, "by itself"? No, it's not by itself, it's by stimulating you through intonation. rhythm and composition. While poetry stimulates through word choice, rhythm and composition. Difference is minimal.

>and its intrinsic, mathematical properties,
What mathematical properties, you fool? Neither harmony nor counterpoint have anything to do with math. Not everything with a set of rules is "mathematical". For God's sake, these systems are historical, not scientific.
>its repetitions, tones and sounds. Non-verbal, immersive and mathematics-based storytelling at its core.
It is indeed non-verbal. So what? Sculpture is also nonverbal. Music uses intonations for words, and writes a story in that primal, natural language. It's poetry in all respects, except in the most basic language of all, where "aaah" means scared and "ooooh" means pleased.

>>2856797
Yes, sure they do. I'm sure that the TV business is extremely passionate and tries to work around it's constraints - just as any other artist would do in their chosen medium.

A man with a paintbrush and a canvas is limited by those two things. Some independent film directors will make their first films with small loans from friends, unpaid actors and generally no idea what they are doing. Their are musicians today who make albums off an old Dell laptop and a cheap MIDI keyboard. However nobody can tell them what to do. Television there is someone outside of the art calling the shots, based on market research and potential advertising and other competition. To me this will always make television shitty. Knowing it's so limited just ruins it.

>>2856812
I've never heard of this show but the idea still stands. For every good television show there are 100 books straight from the writer's heart. Television will never have that opportunity.

>>2856817
>A better Zelda game than any Zelda.
This simply isn't true. Okami was sub-par. There were mediocre Zelda games on it's general level, but you honestly can't compare the unimaginative cakewalk that is Okami to gameplay in A Link to the Past or Ocarina of Time.

>people hating on the gem that is Okami

It's like I'm really on /v/!

>>2856825
>to the repetitive, shallow gameplay in A Link to the Past or Ocarina of Time.
Fixed that for you. Okami > LttP > OoT

>>2856780
Except each medium doesn't just generate a set number of pieces each year with a varying degree of quality. You can't just give it time and expect it all to even out. The claim that all forms of art have the same ratio of good works to bad works is baseless, it might work as a rule of thumb (90% of everything is shit), but that doesn't mean it's actually true, and it would be naive to proclaim every artistic medium as equal in potency.

And being the product of a whole committee of artists does not somehow make the product "as potentially artistic as it ever got".

>>2856828
Jeez, you sure are easily moved by graphical gimmicks.

>>2856817
Grand Theft Auto: SA is art. For it's time it had a beautiful realist art style. It told the story of struggling black American's disenfranchised from the white, middle class nation America tries so hard to sell itself as.
It is considered on of the best sandbox games to date, winning an absurd amount of awards, and used the voice talents of many great people.

Yet no one ever calls it art when describing art? Wanna know why? They have an agenda. They want to make their art appeal to those outside the world of video games. And this is their first mistake, and it's why video games wont be considered art. Do you think David Foster Wallace cared if film makers thought his works were art? No, in fact, he criticised all forms of media because he cared not for them but his own medium.

>>2856831
>Except each medium doesn't just generate a set number of pieces each year with a varying degree of quality.
All forms of art have that and always have, what are you, stupid? There always was an expectancy of what a book would cost and what a play, opera or film ticket would cost, you ignorant fucking child.

>You can't just give it time and expect it all to even out.
It's already even.

>>2856837
The public and the mainstream buying into the idea of videogames being art is irrelevant. Clearly they're pushing such an agenda with the interest of fishing new audiences, but you don't seem to understand that has very little bearing on the philosophical issue here.

Art is everything that is the genuine expression of human creativity. Video game design, although not one of the most refined arts, certainly fals into this category.

>>2856837
>Grand Theft Auto: SA is art.
Of course it is. It's pop-art, it's devoid of lasting value, but it is art.

That something is bad art doens't make it not art. We might argue if a random, thoughtless collage is art or bretonist surrealism, but a piece of finished, well-gestated artistic work is art by definition whether you like it or not.

>>2856845
>SA
>pop art
as opposed to what?
Ico? Okami? Portal?

Most video games are pop-art, but to say GTA:SA wont have any lasting value is absurd.

>>2856859
At least you tried.

>>2856837
I didn't even read your whole post but San Andreas is a dumb ass game.

One of the best games of the past 6 or so years, Metal Gear Solid 4, is a colossal piece of shit.

Suck on that, losers.

>>2856875
>One of the best games of the past 6 or so years, God Hand, looks lieke shit, but it a marvellous acheivement of gamedesign as an artform.

>>2856844
Wouldn't you say that, by it's nature, the genuine human expression gets diluted by being based on a whole committee working together?

Videogames might be able to claim to be "art", but that doesn't mean it is magically on the same level with the same amount of good work produced as other mediums.

>>2856839
Do you even want anyone to take your opinion as anything more than juvenile whining?

>>2856859
I'm curious how much lasting value any game will have. Will technically dated classics continue to be ported, emulated, or remade in the far future? Audio and video playback is relatively simple. Running software designed to be used with specific, dated hardware isn't really the same.

>>2856878
>Wouldn't you say that, by it's nature, the genuine human expression gets diluted by being based on a whole committee working together?
What, like in a performance of a play, a symphonic performance or filming cinema? Or, dunno, say, painting a chapel?

>>2856878
>the genuine human expression gets diluted by being based on a whole committee working together?

You mean, just like in film, operas, television, music ensembles, ballet, group dances, theater, comics, cartoons and architecture?

>>2856876
Never played it.

>>2856881
Don't even compare Okami to Killer 7. Okami has no substance at all.

>>2856817

Killer 7
Better art design and use of cel shading utilizing a more interesting blend of Japanese and Western aesthetics

>>2856881
While still managing to be an awful game.

>>2856884
It's the greatest as of yet game of one of the most influential game directors alive. And you havne't played it.

Tough shit.

>>2856878
Do you even realize how many people are involved in a movie production or in the presentation of a classical piece?

Fucking idiot.

OP is me

>>2856736

God tier:
Pornography

Transcendental tier:
Literature
Music

High tier:
Painting
Sculpture

Okay tier:
Film
Theater
Dance

Meh tier:
Architecture
Photography

Shit tier:
Videogames
Anime and Manga
Comics
3D art
Television

>>2856887
It's a good game. Gameplay isn't nearly as impressive as it's visual style, story or writing, but it's still good. Very clever, too, in the modernistic way exploration was handled.

>>2856885
Shut your stupid pie hole.

>>2856888
>Resident Evil 4

>>2856895
Okami is a flashy thing and nothing else. Quit obsesing over it. COme the fuck on. Kamiya is not the guy you go for substance. He does well with tight, challenging gameplay, but adventure games he wasn't able to make properly as of yet.

His shit has always been a bit shallow, so a huge tale by his is naturally to flop like all fuck.

>>2856891
this is actually better
however literature still needs to be separated from the more plebeian mediums

>>2856898
God Hand was far better than RE4. RE4 was a very good game, too, though.

>>2856898
God Hand > RE4

RE4 isn't even in the Top 3 best resident evil games.

>>2856876
God Hand is probably one of the best games I've ever played, but I don't know if it's art. Can an immaculately designed roller coaster be art? Same with Vanquish. An absolute joy to play, but completely empty headed and ridiculous.

>>2856883
Yes, which is why those mediums are ranked lower based on how much this is true.

I'm not OP, but if I was making a tier list this would be a key consideration.

>>2856898

If you cut out helpess Navi I guess it is an okay game

>>2856900
>my opinion is a fact

Unlike most flavor-of-the-season games, Okami earned its high scores, critical appraise and near-universal love of /v/ by being actually a very good game.

You'd find out if you played it sometime.

>>2856904
>RE4 isn't even in the Top 3 best resident evil games.
Actually, the top-3 of RE games is
1. RE Director's Cut (Shinji Mikami)
2. RE4 (Shinji Mikami)
3. RE2 (Hideki Kamiya)

And top 5 is
1. RE Director's Cut (Shinji Mikami)
2. RE4 (Shinji Mikami)
3. RE2 (Hideki Kamiya)
4. nil
5. nil

>>2856904
That last part is so wrong it seems disingenuous.

>>2856908

>hurr durr thats just your opinion and not a fact
>hurr durr these other opinions make it a fact

nice cognitive dissonance

ITT: video game thread

I don't know if anyone agrees, but I think theatre should be a tier above film. I've only seen a few plays, but the emotion and intensity you get from a live person deeply in the role of their character doesn't compare to a recording.

>>2856911
Main series only?


RE2 > RE1 (all versions, Director's Cut included, even RE:make on a good day) RE3 >>>> RE4 >>>> shit > RE5 >>>> RE6

>>2856913
The difference is that your opinion is shit.

>>2856919
Code Veronica is main series

>>2856918
I agree to an extent but this is sadly a video game thread now.

>>2856919
It's nostalgia. I've replayed the games throughout the recent years, and the original RE is unrivaled. RE2 falls flat on quite a bit of occasions, while the original is incredibly tense.

>>2856918
But the greatest filmworks are at least on par with the greatest plays when actually acted.

I don't know about you but I'd rather read Shakespeare, Wilde and Beckett's best plays than see some ragtag actos perform it.

>>2856876
Are you the same guy who is promoting Okami?

Serious? Get off Clover's dick.
They sucked.
I bet you like SUDA 51 games too, you do don't know?

>>2856918

If you separate the cream of the crop from the whole you'll fuck up everything

Have you seen terrible theater or college improv theater even?

Might even bring it down some tiers if it was done that way

>>2856918
>I don't know if anyone agrees, but I think theatre should be a tier above film. I've only seen a few plays, but the emotion and intensity you get from a live person deeply in the role of their character doesn't compare to a recording.
Actually, it doens't matter if it's a recording or no. The only thing that matters is if the actor at the top of their skill, which they never are at a live performance.

In good film, all the actors always nail it. In a good stage production, it's stellar if they please nail it more than half the time at best.

>>2856931
> bet you like SUDA 51 games too, you do don't know?


Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to...

>>2856891
I'll assume you're joking about porn, but the rest is good.

>>2856931
You're confused.

>>2856929
Go back to GameFaqs.

I can't agree wholeheartedly about the T.V. comment.

If you've ever seen Madmen then you know what that show is capable of
>if I don't have it wrong, S3E3, where Sally is fighting at school, has some amazing scenes. I'm thinking specifically of the close-up of her dirty, sweaty face as she wipes her forehead, spreading bloodlike-mud on her face.
Also, I'm almost done S5 and it's got some of the best episodes I've ever seen. Especially the one where we see Peggy trying to be Don.

Also, the character development in Breaking Bad (as far as the main character and, to a lesser extent, the brother-in-law are concerned) is pretty amazing.

However, shows like Californication bother me. It is pretty good up to the end of S4, but it throws 'literature' (both in characters and themes) in your face in order to convey itself as artistic, and the fact that you can't live in your own medium is a sad reflection of the quality of television. Also, S5 has been outright terrible. Basically, every 1-3 episodes has a new conflict, and it's so ridiculous and forced that the show lost all of it's appeal for me. I finished it only because of my history with it.

On a final note, I think a lot of people make the mistake of defining a show by it's entire length. You really need to appreciate only episodes and whole seasons, because on any show there is a frequent change-up of writers and directors.

Also, Fuck your high-art bullshit.

>>2856931
>Are you the same guy who is promoting Okami?
No, I'm the guy arguing that Okami is shit.

Do you consider God Hand a Clover game? Don't. It's a Shinji Mikami game. Clover wasn't worth shit.

>>2856938
Porn is clearly the pinnacle of human expression, towards which all art aspires.

>>2856940
Also, I write "Also," frequently.

>>2856939
>Go back to GameFaqs.
I'd rather go back to fucking you're mum.

>>2856941
American porn is terribly plastic looking and acted

Does anyone have the pic comparing japanese and american porn? They're both disgusting.

Amateur erryday.

>>2856940
South Park seasons 1-3 are high art. Everything else is for children.

>>2856941

>>2856945
Clearly gamefaqs was an inappropriate redirection.
>>>/b/

>>2856945
My mom's dead you fuck.

>>2856947
South Park is for edgy children.

>>2856950

>>2856946

There is a difference between western porn and Japanese porn?

Its mostly a studio thing not a culture thing. Facial Abuse, Mood and Dogma have a lot in common.

>>2856948
Can you say why porn can't be art? The studios I mentioned have a lot going for them as an art form.

painting sex is art
song about fucking is art
filming it ? Nope "morals"

>>2856952
But that's what I said.

I like to rate the people arguing based on how many strawmen and ad-homs they use.

So far... fuck all of you faggots.

>>2856957
But you don't even know who is who. How can you tell EVERYONE has commited a logical fallacy?

>>2856956
I'm including seasons 1-3 in there too.

>>2856957
Nobody cares about what you think or feel about anything.

>>2856957

quite certain you can't identify a strawman or an ad hom properly

>>2856957
Stop whining.

Oh, so you don't know shit then.

More raw emotion is put into theater, both for the actors and the audience. Assuming you're engaged in it, of course, theater normally has much more artistic merit

>>2856968
This was in response to
>>2856963

>>2856970
I've seen them. It was trash from the start.

>>2856955
Porn is art.

But it really is free of good works. It's all basic and perfectly genre. Only a few people are even trying to make pornogrpahy above the "basic copulation on camera", and none go beyond laundry lists of fetishes.

What we need is to either udnerstand that, popularly, "not art" actually means "not good"; or stop using "not art" in that sense and start saying "bad art" instead.

An LCD screen is not art. A porn movie is art. A pencil is not art. A video game is art. That's how it is.

>>2856940
>Walt
>good character development
Oh god know.
I hope he and Skyler die this season.
Especially Skyler.

Hank and Jessie get into fistycuffs in the final episode. It fades to black as they both go for a blow.

name some porn that qualifies as art

>>2856981
Poor Little White Boy

>>2856981
I've never seen any. It will be made, but since we're sitll living int he dark ages where you can get to jail for airing porn, we'll have to wait for a bit, because no truly god director will want to touch it as it is today.

>>2856984
could work

>>2856981
There's a film called "9 Songs" which is basically porn (spurting cock and all), but done so well it straddles the line between film and porn.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411705/

>>2856981

i think dotchan is art

>>2857001
jesus_tittyfucking_christ_how_horrifying.exe.bat.tiff.rar

I retract any statement I made about porn in this thread. Please make it go away.

Let's talk about why dance should be on the same level as music instead.

>>2857006
Dance is ont he same level as porn, whatever that level is. Period.

>>2857011
art level

thanks /mu/

These threads are always tremendous fun, but the actual concept of tiering media is fucking ridiculous.

>>2857011
Because they're both all expression through the movement of the human body?

>>2857015
>>2857014

Obviously POWER RANKINGS are a better system

>>2857018
>>>/sp/

>>2857016
Exactly. The lowest form of expression indeed.

>>2857022
You realize most communication with people is done through body-language? Emotional expressions through facial features and body-language is universal across human cultures.

Clearly such a powerful human impact can't be on the bottom tier?

>video games
>art

>>2857015
>These threads are always tremendous fun

ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU'RE HERE FOR?

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

>>2857028
>You realize most communication with people is done through body-language?
Expression is a mean, not an end. But in dance, it often ends up overwhelming the end through sheer implied eroticism of the human body, which makes it inherently limited.

>>2857041
Communication is a means, not an end.

Expression CAN BE and OFTEN IS most certainly an end.

You're a moron.

>>2857029
this wasn't the picture i wanted to post but it suffices as well

held in the autist's hand is a bag from video game convention. 'xplay' references a video game show. video games would be more respectable in the realm of art if it was appreciated by more cultured individuals. unfortunately the people most enticed by video games are those pictured, which is evidence of its inferior nature

>>2857029
>literature
>art
no but seriously, art isn't a compliment. Video games satisfy most definitions of art, so long as you're not going off some retarded continental shit where the observer can't interact

>>2857028
>Clearly such a powerful human impact can't be on the bottom tier?
Clearly, the basest things are always the bottom tier. Dance and culinary are lowest art forms in the eyes of an intellectual is what I'm saying.

>>2857043
>Expression CAN BE and OFTEN IS most certainly an end.
Impression is an end, expression is a mean. Are we clear now?

>>2856775
>no one making the point that this guy's 'photography as art' is just a nature-shot
I fiddle diddle.

>>2857049
As previously noted, the only thing that's clear now is that you're an idiot.

Dance is an expression and an end.

Art is expression and also an end in itself.

You're a moron.

>>2857044
>this wasn't the picture i wanted to post but it suffices as well
>video games would be more respectable in the realm of art if it was appreciated by more cultured individuals. unfortunately the people most enticed by video games are those pictured, which is evidence of its inferior nature
All I can see is a badly dressed chubby guy.

>>2857052
>Art is expression and also an end in itself.
When art becomes an end, it dies and new art takes it's place. Happens roughly every 200 hundred years, not always simultaneously in all forms. There always has been an ars noval movement that arose due to art being too drunk on it's own piss, i.e. has become an end in itself for some.

photography is in the shittiest of tiers and belongs at the bottom. photography takes NO SKILL at all. inb4 hurr durr lighting effects and angles

>>2857055
>still an idiot
You're thinking of movements while completely ignoring art itself is a self-realizing expression of human creativity.

You need to go back to philosophy 101, dear armchair warrior or at least start your basic reading on the Theory of Art.

>>2857046
Having asked the question, I like this answer. Still, based on this, could we really say music is more intellectual than painting or film/theater?

>>2857057
>photography takes NO SKILL at all.
Sure it does.

having opinions on art while underage is art

>>2857062
i guess it's just better to say photography isn't art.

show me a piece of magnificent photography. show me photographic "art" that can't be easily duplicated

>>2857069
you wouldn't understand.

no photo can be replicated. each photo is a unique moment of time.

>>2857069
>show me a piece of magnificent photography. show me photographic "art" that can't be easily duplicated
Nah, there's no point. I'm not going to change your mind.

>>2857060
>Still, based on this, could we really say music is more intellectual than painting or film/theater?
Of course we can't. And I'm a musician myself. I know first-hand that it really is not a very intellectual form of art at all, compared to literature et al. Composers and performers are often intellectual... through literature and theatre, not music. Music can have a very powerful aesthetic impact, but it doesn't have much to do with intellectualism.

>>2857074
>each photo is a unique moment of time.
but that's easy enough to understand. how does the photographer have any influence over that moment of time

>>2857079
there's no point because there is no such thing

>>2857091
>but that's easy enough to understand. how does the photographer have any influence over that moment of time
It can be set up or anticipated. That's how all art works. How can a director have any influence over that moment he has to put on film? Come on.

>>2857069
>that can't be easily duplicated
It's cute how related you think that is.

>>2857091
>how does the photographer have any influence over that moment of time

he chooses it

>>2857093
you're right. i dont even know why i started this argument

still takes less skill

>>2857113
Sometimes, when a photographer shows me their work, I'll say something like, "wow, you have a really good camera."

>Perfume
>not God tier art

> rating the medium
never change, /lit/

Why is tv a lower form than anime?

Anime's just as full of shit, maybe even more so because they have the perverted fanservicing loli stuff too.

>>2857183
Top tier anime > top tier TV series

I can only speak for me, but Ghost in the Shell, Kaiba, Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, Tatami galaxy, Texhnol]yze, Haibane Renmei Mononoke, Mushishi, etc, etc, etc, >>> The Wire, Mad Men, Seinfeld, breaking Bad, Buffy, etc

95% of the content of all mediums of entertainment is pure shit. This cannot be disputed.

>>2857186
The Wire>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Top tier anime > top tier TV series

The transcendental qualities of music are too often undermined. In fact it seems the common intellectual of today will not even recognize it. The Romans and Greeks of Dionysian cults knew of it, they praised music for its liberation into other worlds.

>>2857193
Not even close, dear fanboy.

GitS alone had way more artistic vision and was more of a genre-defining piece than The Wire. And it did so much in only 90 min.

>>2857193
If I could round up every wirefag on the planet into a single room and eliminate them, I would.

>>2857186
TV has the wider middle range band, but I found Dexter to be better than any anime I've seen. House is pretty high up too, most notably the season start and end episodes

If you take roughly similar genres, for example Lucky Star being Seinfeld in anime-form, well you can decide which has the best in which categories. There isn't anything close to a single metric which can have Seinfeld and Breaking Bad on the same line.

>>2857186
>>2857193

You can't really compare Rembrandt to Ogata Korin.

>>2857147
>Perfume
>relevant

>>2857206
Breaking Bad and House are just bad, especially in later seasons. Dexter is interesting but far from a masterpiece. Seinfeld... eh, of course it will look better when you compare it to LS.

>>2857213
YMMV, I can say similar things to top rated anime

>>2857210
Ukiyo-e fucking sucked though, if we compare to what was being produced in Europe at the time.

Nowadays the tides have turned, there are acutally more clever anime out there than clever TV shows.

Of course, japan still cannot touch the west in other forms and medias, but they sure as fuck have more creative freedom in their weekly shows.

God Tier:
Manga
Research papers

Top Tier:
Anime

High Tier:
Video Games

Shit Tier:
TV


Thats all the lit medium I can think of

>>2857213
I used to really like Seinfeld, but now can't even stand to watch a full episode. But I can't even say why. Maybe I've just become stuper-conscious of the laugh track.

>>2857235
Seinfeld is unfunny is a trope

>>2857238
I never said it's "unfunny". I said I can't stand to watch an episode, anymore, and don't know why.

>>2857238
>>>/tvtropes/
Fuck off and never come back.

Faggots need to learn that it is not the role of commercial television to be experimental or unique.

OP needs to occupy his hands with more cocks and less posting.

>architecture not being above okay but below high in a "good" tier

>theatre not being high or transcendental

God tier
>Literature from active zeitgeists (ie. legitimate literature, from poetic or bardic epics, to satire, to drama, to existential novel, to science fiction, and so on)
>Real philosophy (ie. not pomo, continental, analytic, applied ethics, etc.)
>Metrical poetry
>Epic poetry
>Grand historiography (ie. not "modern chronicles" of statistical minutiae, eg. WW2 history)
>Epic/history/mythology/etc. painting
>Sculpture
>Provincial craft art from active zeitgeists
>Dramatic theatre
>Real cinema (eg. Welles)
>Theoretical height of video games (illusion of malleable first-person narrative, immersion in Sublime)
>Large scale (eg. imperial) architecture from active zeitgeists

Great tier
>Virtuous music (ie. sophisticated and/or experimental, without defying form for the sake of defying it)
>Cream of the crop of pomo/analytic/logic/etc. philosophy
>Large scale architecture from dead/dying zeitgeists
>"Cultural theatre", festivals, revelries, myth reenactments
>Vulgar art from active zeitgeists (eg. folk music, chivalric novel, Plautus)

Okay tier
>Cream of the crop of modern prolefeed media (eg. serial TV drama, comedy, Kubrick, Hitchcock, Kurosawa)

Shit tier
>Pop music
>Faux-experimental music (eg. atonal)
>Postmodern art
>Postmodern literature
>Abstract art
>Everything else

James Joyce is the literary and artistic equivalent of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdZ9weP5i68

>Literature
>Music
These two are all I need. The rest is for plebeians, with the odd gem.

no arguments from me

>>2857425
Do you want fries with that undeserved sense of self-importance?

>>2856736
>Architecture
>meh tier
This is what's wrong with the world today, not that I'm any good at it.

You left out OP from shit tier

>>2859410
The problem with architecture as an art form is that it is severely hindered to being an art form in SECOND place - praticality and engineering come first, because whatever is being built has a function to perform before we can appreciate it.

>>2859931
Practicality goes with architecture, engineering is the safety of the building ie make sure it doesn't collapse

>>2859936
So what you're saying is that both have nothing to do with each other.

Think for two seconds before denying architecture and engineering go hand in hand.