/lit/ - Literature

/lit/s essential list of patrician games

Doom
Sonic
Quake
Tetris
Angry birds

Wait for the summer
We'll sleep when we wanna
Don't tell your mother
We'll leave when we
We'll leave when we wanna

can't be fucked to defend it right now because i'm about to go take a monstrous liquid lava dump, but i know some tru nigga is gonna have my back on this one

fuck that indie tryhard shit, THIS game exemplifies the unique artistic potential of the medium

come at me (except dont really come at me, you'll get poop on you)

>>2730523
The first game was better. I also have to shit but I will debate you right the fuck up in ten minutes or so.

Mother 3, Earthbound.

Maybe the first Bioshock?

That's about all I can think of.

i'm o.k.
humorous indie platformer with 'retro' grafix, nothing special for itself but...
- answer to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Video_Game_Proposal
(and a reaction to the whole 'satanic music and violent videogames are the reason behind columbine')

>>2730567
Oh god, this is Swift level satire right here

limbo
great (dark) atmosphere and gameplay
minimalistic visual style

Silent Hill 2, Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening, Shivering Isles, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy VI, Star Wars: Episode I: (Pod) Racer.

And I guess Portal often receives high mention, even though it's so contrived, boring, and predictable.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3173/lessons_in_color_theory_for_spyro_.php

A shit ton of color theory (a la the Hard Edge art school) went into the level design for Spyro, if that counts

>>2730567
If this bullshit is art, so is this

Let the bodies hit the floor
Let the bodies hit the floor
Let the bodies hit the floor
Let the bodies hit the floooooooooooooooooooooooooooooor

>>2730587
good=/=art

I fucking loved Fallout, but I would never call it an "art game." What makes you think that FF7 is art? It was a great fucking game, maybe the greatest on the old PSX, but there's nothing artistic about it whatsoever. It's like the difference between Inception (plebian masterpiece) and Le Charme Discret de la Bourgeois (patrician masterpiece); OK Computer and Faust; The Hunger Games and Infinite Jest

Threads on this board should pertain to literature.
Please delete your thread.

This thread's about the definition of art, and not "patrician level vidya" - but it's still not about literature.

>>2730544
There's nothing really artsy besides the LOL JAPAN U SO CRAZY charm of Earthbound until the final boss battle. That's the fucking pinnacle of art and gaming right there. It's seamlessly integrated so as not to be pretentious and it actually adds to the gameplay instead of detracting from it. God I fucking loved that game.

Now that I think about it, Earthbound is like an allegory for childhood. The world is vibrant and colorful, all the enemies are characterized as how they would be seen from the perspective of a child, and the boss battle/ending is a William Blake-esque transition from Innocence to Experience.

>>2730619
Who said vidya isn't literature? Just ask the nearest neo-pragmatist, I'm right.

>>2730609
hahahaha

Roman numbers 101.

Racer isn't really a great game, it didn't receive many long-term critical acclaims except perhaps for graphics, so you can see that I'm not equating art with goodness. Shivering Isles is an exploration of an insane god's psyche. The central quest of Link's Awakening is the assembly of an orchestra (on old-school GB, no less). Majora's Mask puts the player into possession of a Braid-like relationship with time. Final Fantasy VI meanwhile has a play-within-a-play (or opera-within-a-vidya), everything about the game represents achievement of the vidya medium's highest artistic aspirations.

>>2730575
>Limbo

OT: S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series, Team Ico games, Mafia Series, Deus Ex, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy, Bastion, Planescape: Torment, Vampire: The Masquerade, Red Orchestra, Arma 2, Civ series, Total War series, Katawa Shoujo, Just Cause 2, CS 1.6/CSS, UT2k4, Quake 3, Old Bioware, Morrowind, Battlefield 2/2142, Fallout 1/2/New Vegas, Half-Life series, Hitman series, Killing Floor, Metro 2033, Mirror's Edge, Penumbra series, Anmesia, Psychonauts, Tribes series, and that should do you for a while.

Art (capital A) is anything you will find being exhibited in a museum. Video games do qualify in that sense.

Unfortunately there are very few gaming experiences worth calling "art". Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are two prominent examples of Vidya as Art, and they are amazing experiences.

Sage for not /lit/.

>>2730641
I read that as seven because I can't even comprehend what you would have to be smoking on a regular basis to call FF6 art

>>2730646

>fallout
>penumbra
>civs
>just cause
>morrowind

Go back to /v/

>>2730503
Oh, my friend, I like you, I do. Patrician as FUCK up in here, you know what I mean?

I don't know if I can top LSD... The best I can serve up is probably Myst.

Other than that, I usually bring up Chrono Trigger, although I think it might be simply "a very good video game" and not quite so much of "a piece of legitimate art." It makes enough of an impact that I think there might be SOMETHING of artistic value contained within it, although the work as a whole might just be entertainment (c.f. Inception--you might pick out one or two sequences or scenes and say, "this is stunning as visual (or whatever) art," but overall the product exists only to entertain).

Man... I'm struggling more than I thought I would to fill this gap. I'm quite partial to Cross Channel, but that's hardly a video game in the traditional sense of the word, and even more controversial. Mmm, I don't feel like I'm hitting the mark here at all, even though I can clearly see (thanks you reminding me of LSD) where it is.

>>2730665
Chrono Trigger easily had the best story of any vidya I've ever played and the gameplay was stellar. I don't think it fits the bill though. I don't know, I could be swung either way by a compelling argument. Never played Myst though but I've heard great things.

>>2730651
>>2730641
Oh HERE we go, this is a little more in the direction of the stuff I thought I was forgetting. Links Awakening, Shadow of the Colossus, yeah, yeah, I can tetally see where this is going. Still hard to top OP, though. I am really struggling to come up with any video game that was concieved primarily as a work of art, and suceeded in being GOOD art.

>>2730661
>Talking about video games
>Tell me to go back to a place where there is no game discussion

Also, Morrowind, Fallout 1/2/New Vegas, and Penumbra create atmospheric worlds rife with artistic expression and depth. Civ and Just Cause 2 are more merit worthy based upon the player's imagination and use of the mechanics available in the game.

>>2730589
That was the most fucking interesting thing I've read all day. I'm genuinely convinced that game is a fucking artistic masterpiece. I need to replay that shit right fucking now

Shadow of the Colossus

If you don't think video games can be art, you haven't played this game.

OP here, tentative list for what will be included in the first essentials list as I have seen argued for. If it hasn't been affirmed, it has a question mark next to it.

LSD
Spyro
Silent Hill 1/2 (?)
Mother 2/3 (?)
Bioshock (?)
I'm OK (?)
Limbo (?)
Super Columbine (?)
Majora's Mask (?)
Link's Awakening (?)
Shivering Isles (?)
Chrono Trigger (?)
Myst (?)
Assorted /v/ bullshit

Keep the discussion going guys.

>>2730696
Forgot some

Journey(?)
FF6(?)
Shadow of The Colossus (?)
Limbo (?)

But I don't WANT to be patrician. Who the hell wants to be that kind of authority? Do I want my vidya to be some kind of fashion accessory where the object is for the person reviewing my tastes to think I'm smart? Why? I can do that easily. Uhh, let's see, Yume Nikki, EVE Online (fave of the upper-middle-class and pathologically idle), one of those dime-a-dozen 'parody' RPG Maker games, Ico, that one game that's also set in a big desert...

You want to know what games I think are legitimately good?

Final Fantasy 7. The whole Terranigma series. Baroque. Hellsinker. Missile Command. Einhander.

Of course, I would be laughed at if I were to say this.

>>2730665

I still like Chrono Cross better.
No troll.

>>2730701
Add Killer7. Suda51 is the leading eastern developer of artsy vidya. That postmodern tale of excellence, them political allegories, that Tarantinoesque violence, them fucking cell shaded graphics, that use of color! Don't you just want to blow your load?

OP here, can we narrow down the list so I can at least make a tentative infographic? Got to go to work in an hour and want to get shit done while I'm still feeling it. I know LSD and Journey are pretty much universally agreed to be art but idk about Spyro, the article left me unconvinced.

>>2730711

>Final Fantasy 7

That entire sequence from starting to the game to leaving Midgar is still the best continuous gameplay in a video game.

Half-Life
Max Payne
Yume Nikki
Front Mission 4
Ico/Shadow of the Colossus
XIII
Chrono Trigger/Cross
Metal Gear Solid
Deus Ex
System Shock

>>2730728
(terrible) opinions.

I've scoured the thread, and no Nier? Seriously?
It may be an ugly game, but it boasts one of the best stories in vidya, and undoubtedly has the best soundtrack in a game.

You know, grinding in RPGs is like a practical application of that DFW quote: "If you are immune to boredom, there is literally nothing you cannot accomplish."

Killer7. Explores the tension between the US and Japan post-WWII, the seizure of democracy, the spread of cultural influences both in the east and west, Shintoism ...there's just so much to it. Here's a pretty exhaustive write-up if you're interested. Spoiler alert though.

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/642/642437p1.html

>>2730742

>/v/
>good opinions

Please stop posting here.

>>2730766

Isn't "good opinions" a goon meme? I'd hardly trust them to know good from bad, insofar as they've used money as a forcefield to set up this kind of floating island of pulpy bougie greyness from which they issue edicts and try to tell us culture.

>>2730776

as is "stop posting"

>>2730765
I remember being fascinated with Killer7 back in the day, reading that when it was hosted on Gamefags and it blowing my mind.
Unfortunately, if memory serves, Suda put out a supplementary book or something to 'explain' the plot (remember the game was really unfinished), that contradicted a lot of what's said there.
I love Killer7 though, there's nothing like it. Kaede 4 lyf.

>>2730784

what's "lyf"

>>2730766
What are you talking about? Where did I reference /v/? I don't even go there regularly... I was just saying that that's your opinion, and that it's a terrible opinion because FF7 isn't nearly as exceptional as people make it out to be. It's a great game when compared to video games as a whole, but if you're comparing it to other great games it doesn't stand up well at all.

>>2730749

Also, vidya is post-irony in that playing it implicates you. You're not a passive observer. You're a participant. You're indicted.

The way around this would be to somehow... have other people play games FOR you? I dunno. I can't see it happening, because no one's sunk that low in degeneracy and alienation yet.

Most games that I would consider brilliant or even masterpieces I wouldn't call art. Rome Total War, Perfect Dark, Pokemon series, these are some game I would class as some of the all time best, although they never intended to reach the level of 'art'. They were never created in order to provoke the kind of emotional response found in other games.

OP I would include games such as Ocarina of Time or Morrowind as art, simply because of the level of atmospheric immersion that these kind of games achieve. This concept can be found in almost any quality game, but these examples invoke such strong emotional responses simply through the use of atmosphere. The power of their music, the sense of solitude, the way they create a foreboding dread or unease, all achieve an incredible stimulation of the senses and feelings.

One major point of contention in deciding which games achieve the level of art is whether the technical aspects of the actual gameplay of a game are considered criteria for elevating that game to art. I've always felt that a mastery of gameplay mechanics and controls is the rough equivalent of an author's writing style. It is basically one of the ways a game translates itself for the player.

Video games are meant to be played and enjoyed, not pondered over. The idea of video games being a form of art is deeply retarded, also this thread is retarded. At least in painting, there is an incentive for making high-brow, "patrician" shit, because collectors will pay big bucks for it, but that doesn't happen with video games so you're just retarded.

>>2730653
>FF6
i'm actually calling it art for a different reason from the others. it's just a very good (probably the best) example of vidya that is artistic in a formal sense, like with regard to the music, visuals, gameworld, story, and the interplay thereof. it perfected all the artistic elements of a videogame, showing what could really be done with all of them, such as having an opera sequence with a story which reflects aspects of the larger videogame's story.

much of the same could be said for Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Seiken Densetsu 3, Terranigma, and FFIV, all of which also possess strong formal videogame art. but FFVI is distinguished from them in that it's the best—that is to say, FFVI is (quite objectively) the best videogame of all time, thanks (in part) to these elements.

>>2730825
*foreboding sense of dread or unease

Since the power of a game comes from the inherent fact that the player is essentially INSIDE the game (he/she is an active participant rather than an outside observer, opposed to other forms of art), then the level of technical achievement in a game becomes a very real method of expressing emotion. One thing unique about games is that the player is the artist. So even before one considers the quality of a game's story, characters, atmosphere, or the kind of emotional response it causes, gameplay is a very real way of achieving artistic expression, or at least helping to, even though it may initially be viewed as a purely technical achievement.

>>>/mu/
>>>/v/

>>2730825
i find with 'Ocarina' and 'Oblivion' (i know you mentioned 'Morrowind' not 'Oblivion' but will get to it in a moment) that they're more "product," having good formal videogame art, whereas it's when the developers were so successful with the mainline franchise installment and are then essentially licensed by the publisher to do whatever the fuck they want, that we get something which seems more plainly artistic, hence 'Majora's Mask' and 'Shivering Isles'.

i've not played 'Morrowind' have heard it's stylistically more similar to 'Isles' than it is to 'Oblivion'.

>>2730847
As we've seen with games , although I wouldn't necisarily call them games, such as Dear Esther and Journy, video games do have immense potential in evoking an emotional response through the medium itself that's not reliant on instant gratification.

I even believe it may have the potential to represent the human condition in deeper and more impactful ways than any other form of entertainment has to offer.

>>2730847
>Video games are meant to be played and enjoyed, not pondered over.

The original purpose of something doesn't invalidate it's future uses. Remember the internet?

the novel was once seen as a vulgar medium devoid of meaning or use.

>>2730503
Things that are made are art.

>>2730866

I would completely agree with this. I think that games that really exploit the factor of decision making coming from the player (even if constrained to a few choices) achieve bigger inmersion generally. I think thats why games like final fantasy are so succesful. Greater inmersion equals greater relation with the protagonist equal greater emotional response. I found that many games try that in cheaper, more inmediate ways (for example, simply utilizing a 1st person view) and it is generally unsuccesful at the moment of relating us with the caracters; perfect dark is an amazing entertainment piece, entertainment is the key word, with great technical values wich somehow are not equateable to artistic values.

>>2730989
Art is not a synonym for good.
Art is not a synonym for good.
Art is not a synonym for good.
Art is not a synonym for good.
Art is not a synonym for good.
Art is not a synonym for good.
Art is not a synonym for good.

>>2730985
If you mean what I think you mean then you are right, but only in an outdated sense of the word is "art" equivalent to "technique". So, in current times, art doesn't actually mean something that is made with a certain amount of hability

>>2730994
Never said it was

>>2730784
Seriously? Ah that's a shame I guess. The supplementary book might make for some fun reading though...

>>2730989
you mentioned the first-person view ... an artistic use of that can be seen in 'Half-Life' and 'Half-Life 2', where the first-person viewpoint of the FPS genre contrasts with how little the player knows about the history of, or can really relate to, Gordon Freeman. in H-L (1), all of the good-guy NPCs seem to be on intimate terms with him, and so you're in his skin, seeing all these people (friends & colelagues) converse with him through his eyes, but the game purposefully distances you from him by making him an eminent scientist, having some knowledge about wtf is happening that you the player would really like to be let in on (NPCs sometimes remark how such-and-such isn't worth explaining since obviously Gordon knows it already), and of course never providing an explici character bio or backstory. in 'H-L 2' they play with this concept again, since no one bothers to explain to the player what the fuck's been going on over the past several years, in fact you aren't even sure whether Gordon knows it, but the seem to assume that Gordon knows it.

and 'Portal' is the one everyone calls an art game, since whoop-dee-doo it's narrated by a psychopathic robot, how incredibly original, never seen that before, it's not as though a psychopathic robot forms the main dramatic basis of a famous sci-fi film or anything.

even call of duty is art

>no it's not because i don't like it and it makes a lot of money!

back to /v/

>>2731038
ahh now that you mention that: lenghty explanations of the events are usually a drag, they usually damage the naturality of interaction (as you say, the character, after all, should at least be partially informed about whats happening). There are sometimes justifications within the game (i.e. the character has no memory) but they are usually easy rides, simple escapes. I am glad HL doesn't use them, and even if I have not played it, by your description I thin I would find it's use of 1st person as a good and even artistic use

Since this is sort of related:

Is there a /lit/ group on Steam? Does anyone want to make one? Could be fun.

I haven't played video games since childhood.

max payne 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRYgAYlDW3c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0Shr143k0k

El Shaddai and Nier.

>>2731595
Mah nigga.

Max Payne 3 was such a disappointment to me. I'm still sore about it weeks after playing it. Totally abandoned the atmosphere that made the original games so memorable.

Abe's Oddyssey and maybe Exoddus. Fuck Munches oddyssey that was babby shit and I never played stranger's wrath so can't comment.

>>2730609
Fallout can be considered one of the most "artlike vidya", with real world where you can really interact.

I hate this topic. Because it's bullshit, there is so much definition of " art ". It turns in high school debate club meetings every time.

The real discussion should be focused on the intellectually appealing aspect. Stendhal said that " un roman, c'est un miroir qu'on promène au bord de la route " (a novel is a mirror strolled on the wayside), it's why literature exists in my opinion, makes you learn something about human nature, by looking the world and creating with the gathered pieces.

So, what are intellectually appealing video games ? Same thing. If you play Catherine or Lone Survivor, you can sense that, it's literature, same thing with Silent Hill 2, or Shadow Of The Colossus, it's not about the clever uses of design or music, those are tools, it's about showing you one or several aspect of human nature, trough the media.

So know shut up all of you, video games are literature, are art (yeah, because it's my definition of art), you're just to focused on the media used, we don't care about that, just tools.

Pic related, David Bowie is always related.

>>2731667

through and now*

>>2731665
and it has great dialogues.

postal 2?
a pretty mediocore game for itself (except the humor and voice acting which are god-tier).
but you can take it as an modern comment and reaction on the absurdity of american culture and lifestyle (goals in the game: get milk, collet paycheck...) that will one day lead to an bad end (as the apocalypse and the death of the main character at end of the game).
also, i think the game expresses the american fetish for violence.

>>2730646
>mirror's edge
yes, BEAUTIFUL level design. the most aesthetic game i ever played.

>>2731683
beautiful aesthetically you mean, not functionally, where it's just shit, which ruins the beauty entirely.

>>2731600
Just some more El Shaddai images, because goddammn is it pretty.

>>2731691

Heavy Rain is deep.

>>2731693

>>2731690
>beautiful aesthetically you mean, not functionally, where it's just shit, which ruins the beauty entirely.
I agree. You cannot just take out something that has no substance and call it art, at least in my definition.

>>2731758
You can call it art, it's just not very good. Art is not "what I think is good". That's what you call "good art".

>>2731761
That's the reason why I said, "at least in my definition." Since art is an extremely generic term and pretty much has no meaning by itself, you can just call everything art if you want to.
I don't mean to offend you, but what you called "good art" is what really deserves to be called art in my opinion. You can say my definition of art is very strict in that sense.

>>2731823
So you're going free-form with the word? Of course then you're free to do what you want then. Note that calling an apple a banana is the exact same as what you're doing though. In its regular usage, everything that you can think to call art pretty much is art. Except for architecture; seriously, fuck architects.

>>2731830
>>2731823
>>2731761
>>2731758

See, high school debate club meetings.

>>2731856
/lit/ would be a lot better if people supported their statements.

>>2731830
You don't say? Even I recognized architecture as art sonny boy

>>2730589

yes, the level designs in that game were amazing. as well as the music, surprisingly (considering it was composed by the drummer from the police).

Jersey Devil, Oddworld Odyssey/Exodus and Neverhood/Skullmonkeys

>>2730503

>its title is a drug reference
>lel so edgy must be art

stay twelve, bro.

>>2732614
>hasn't played the game
>has no fucking idea what he's talking about

>>2732665
the general level of discussion on 4chan

videogames are for losers
see deepthroat for reference

>>2732673
>thinks art is for losers

just post obscure games no one has heard about

Here's the way I've always seen it:

Video games are not art, but they do contain art. Sort of like a canvas or a piece of paper, it's not art itself, but someone can portray something that will provoke an emotional response by taking advantage of it.

>>2732689
yeah like you can hang paintings on walls in sims

videogames is probably the most avantgarde art today. it's not thriving but the prospects are breathtaking.

>>2732679

>art

that's not helping you at all. If I sat for hours staring at the Mona Lisa each day I'd be fucking lifeless loser

>>2732716
just because it's art, doesn't mean it's good art, billy.

Oh Christ, like it matters. The distinction between media and art is so subjective and tenuous that it's irrelevant to anyone who isn't a pretentious cunt.

>>2732738
I love you, Bowser.

>no Grim Fandango

Seriously, fuck you /lit/

Videogames have the potential. Thing is, the people that makes em has other motivations than to make interactive art. I'd just give it more time, it's still a relatively new media. It could really be exploited.

Why do "gamers" feel the need to define games as art, anyway? Why can't they just exist as is, as games, no matter how good one looks, or how "immersive" one is? I used to be an enthusiast of games long ago (relatively), and I loved Morrowind and Earthbound, but I would not consider them art. To me, it just seems like an attempt to validate a hobby generally viewed as juvenile: "Jeez mom, leave me alone, it's art."

>>2732808
there were times when cinema was not considered to be art. or photography, or...

it's called raising awareness. enriching the discourse. broadening the horizon of what a game can be.

>>2730587
>Link's Awakening
what. why

Narrative driven games:

LA Noire
Red Dead Redemption
GTA San Andreas
GTA IV
Max Payne
Max Payne II
Max Payne III
Alan Wake
Alan Wake: American Nightmare