/lit/ - Literature

Critical theory is a conscious rejection of reality in the face of reality's incompatibility with critical theorists' insane political beliefs.

Also, Luce Irigaray actually believes that fluid dynamics is difficult because male physicists are subconsciously afraid of menstrual fluids. This is what gets taken seriously as feminist thought.

Can I play? I hate men too.

>>2702907
critical theory is just the next logical step in the development of Freudian discourse. i think it's illogical to argue against its validity as an entity.

you're just citing pseudoscience. it's not like that says anything about the entire field. there's pseudoscience in all the humanities.

I'm not pro-womens rights, or pro-mens. I want everybody to be equal where possible. I think isolating issues and people labeling themselves with terms like feminist and emasculated only makes the problem worse.

>>2702909
yeah that's not how it works

>>2702921

Pretending there is no problem is a pretty bad way of solving a problem.

>>2702922
But men get all the good jobs and we don't get paid as much. gawd I hate men.

>>2702926
There is no problem. The only problem is women crying sexism when something doesn't go their way.

>>2702934
i would call rape a problem

>>2702937

Rape is enacted by individuals, not by a patriarchical social order.

you will get a dialectic somewhere in the realm of

'women just want to justify being massive [implicit perjorative of sexual activity]'

As if the proto-commie libtards weren't enough, now we have to deal with this shit?

>>2702942
The social order usually blames the victim and lets the rapist off too easily.

I'd like to read Butler's work in the future. Any particular text to start with?

>>2702942
it's not a part of our society because of feminism.

>>2702937
Rape is not women's problem. It's everyone's problem. There can't be a mention of a man going to prison without jokes of him being raped. At its core, feminism is so sensible, but the bullshit that goes around it makes it really hard to swallow. And every man has experienced cries of sexism for the most petty of things.
I've said I preferred to watch men's sports because while the technique is usually the same (or slightly better) the speed and power is massively increased, which makes it more interesting, and I've been called a chauvinist—without even a tinge of irony mind you—because of it. It's not the thing itself, it's the misuse of it.

>>2702952

Gender Trouble is the important one, I'd say.

>>2702951

How do you know this is the case? This is the first I've heard of this. Rape is taken VERY seriously, probably more seriously than murder, where I live.

>>2702942
>>2702956

Capitalism is a culture of rape. Men are encouraged to not understand the line's between fantasy and reality. Rape is a cultural thing and it is femininity's problem. "Women" and "femininity" are not synonymous in the same way that the phallus and a literal penis are not the same.

doesnt seem like all you anti-feminists have read very much on the topic. seems to me it's more like "feminists hate men i get called a sexist by people misrepresenting the term." ever stop to think that maybe the people claiming to be feminists just happen to not know very much about feminism themselves?

It's really remarkable the amount of misogyny that is culturally accepted. Chauvinistic characters in literature or film are more often than not sympathized with. "Bro" culture in the states perpetuates such misogynistic attitudes. If the issue were race, fucking no one considered mainstream would advocate for the racists.

>>2702956
>It's not the thing itself, it's the misuse of it.

This.

>>2702987

"Capitalism is the culture of rape."

Can you please explain this?

>>2702956
>I've said I preferred to watch men's sports because while the technique is usually the same.
I just thought I'd point out. In the UK tennis finals, women play 3 sets, men play 5 and the prize money is more for men. This is because more people watch the mens, and more advertising is generated. A few years ago there was a huge campaign about equality for women and how unfair it is that women are getting paid less. So now, despite women still getting less viewers, the LTA (tennis association) has been forced to give the same prize money to both women and men. Whats infuriating is that the women still play 2 sets less.

Examples like this are becoming more and more frequent in modern society but women insist they are still being hard done by. Maybe it's different over in the US. But women are entitled to everything a man is here, and quite frequently manage to twist a situation to their advantage meaning they gain more. If anything it is men who are the disadvantaged now.

>>2702992

"Chauvinistic characters in literature or film are more often than not sympathized with."

Which ones?

How does Bro culture perpetuate misogyny? What is Bro culture?

>>2702987
>implying women aren't a part of capitalist society

>>2702956
Yes you are correct misrepresentation is misleading and besmirching. Good one bud.

It's everyone's problem? Many many more women get raped than men. I can't believe you can even think that. Like come on.

contribootin

>>2702997
Does anyone care about how many sets are played, or how many viewers watch the games? What should an athlete's salary be based upon?

Also, how are men disadvantaged?

>>2703001

The fact that many many more women get raped than men mean that men benefit from rape as a phenomenon overall? What about the male relatives and friends of female rape victims?

>>2703005
>Does anyone care about how many sets are played, or how many viewers watch the games?

Did you completely miss the point?
Women demanded the same pay as men, and got it. But they complained at having to do the same amount of work, because they are women and not as strong as men. so now they get paid the same to do less, what didn't you understand?

Op here. What I had intended was for anti-feminists to make anti-feminism arguments. Obviously, those attempting to represent the entirety of feminist thought here will do so inadequately. Reacting against those people does not give any kind of indication that you understand feminism. It is just reaction against reaction. Please, try to voice an ideology rather than simply react to representations.

>>2703001
There are a lot of studies that say that it's not so clear, namely, rape in prisons. Anyway, it's not about saying "we get raped more" then "no we get raped more" it's about solving the complete problem, and that does not happen. The rape discussion revolves around females.

>>2703018
'sup OP.

>>2703012

no one is saying men benefit from rape. What I am saying is that the dominant culture is a culture controlled by masculinity, and that within that culture there is a lot of sexual violence against women. In cultures not dominated by masculine politics there is substantially less violence against women.

>>2703000
Nice trips neocon scum.

Women are a part of capitalist society. But capitalist society is a society of polemics, and women get the shit end.

Also OP I don't think it's really possible to have a feminism thread without heavy use of political discussion. It's impossible to take on issues of the patriarchy without acknowledging that the economic and cultural systems of such are founded in masculinity.

I don't know much about it, but I absolutely hate everything related to that common sense definition of feminism. I think feminism is surrounded by confusion and filled with "what if..."s and "should be like..."s that make it seem radical at all contexts except inside itself. There is a lot of discussion on what on Earth being a woman means, below the surface, before society came to be like it is today.

And, at the same time, I see that the discussion revolves around completely modern issues that, to me, are fucked up on itself in a number of ways not related to the gender issue. So when we are talking about economy our beauty magazines in relation to women, all I see is a problem that can't be just "fixed", because it's much deeper and with a lot of other roots that can not simply be ignored and in my opinion, the position of women in the world of today is a consequence of a snowball of problems. I see a lot of women recognizing how artificial things are for them, but I see only a few perceive that it's artificial from almost every perspective.

As usual, any discussion related to prejudice, to the power or lack of power of a group involves extreme reactions (forth and against) and that annoys me very much. It seems no one is really listening, no one is studying, but trying to prove a point. It gets even bigger when you put religion or different cultures in the middle, so everyone has their own idea of the right and the wrong way for women to live in a society, which is at least extremely dangerous thoughts.

cont

>>2703040 cont

Women are half of all cities, of all cultures, half of our minds. Trying to understand half of mankind ain't easy and it is in these very complicated subjects that we have to be extra careful and more and more open to ideas. I don't see it happening that often, which doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I'd like to see it.

This whole thing goes round and round and leads nowhere, and I mean from macho man to feminist to anti-feminist to anti-anti-feminists... Confusion is what I associate with feminism.

One of my favourite books on the subject is Second Sex by Beauvoir and I like it specially because she brings the woman down to Earth, on the biological differences and the psychological consequences of those differences (for men and women). I think the problems that people want to fix today are exagerations over those differences, added to the bullshit of everyday life that doesn't come from the gender issue.

Capitalist society perpetrates violence on women, gays, minorities, and the poor

http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/model-behavior/
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/desiring-machines/

right on. make porn illegal!

>>2703068
im sorry are you lost this is 4chan

>>2703068
WHAT? I would never normally bother entering a feminist thread but I just saw that post. please tell me you're trolling?

Is that Charlie Sheen in the OP pic?

>>2702899
OP, you're retarded for posting this here, you're never going to engage in a serious discourse about feminism on any part of 4chan. 4chan skews young, it skews male, and it skews towards a certain type of young male.

Post on SA or some other community with accountability if you want to have a serious conversation about these issues, but on /lit/ you're better off just hiding all the "GRRR FEMINAZI" threads and talking about books. Oh, but not books by black people or women though because that's just asking for it.

>>2703074
porn promotes rape get over it

>>2703074
the person who posted that is trolling. there are feminists who advocate that position, although not all feminists do, and there are decent arguments for it. but no one on 4chan will ever seriously advance that argument.

>>2703078

No, it's Anderson Cooper's little bro.

And next time OP, jump into a philosophy thread so they can tell you how women getting gang raped by giant cocks is not wrong because morality and the concept of good and evil don't fundamentally exist.

>>2703083
Not inherently. It only does that in reflection of a society which demands a certain product.

>>2703083
are you kidding? Jacking off to hardcore porn is the only thing stopping me from raping. If you took away my outlet there is no telling what I would do.

>>2703089
Rape?

>>2703088
yes but it blurs the line between the cultural fantasy and the traumatic reality and for unhinged individuals (see>>2703089) who can't separate fantasy from reality, it is a very dangerous thing.

>>2703091
yes rape, nigga. My personal pleasure takes precedence over anybody elses. I can't help my urges. And I can't help that I am more important to me than anybody else.

I just thank our good lord Jesus Christ for giving me porn otherwise I would have raped a long time ago.

Modern feminists have basically adopted all the parts of postmodernism that criticize science and logic, while abandoning everything that challenges the dominance of their cult.

For instance, Nietzsche's genealogical method has been a vital precursor to modern deconstructions of sexuality and patriarchy. But rather then embracing Nietzsche's ideal of self-affirmation, feminism has come to embody his concept of the "man of ressentiment," who defines his existence only through his own feelings of spite and victimization (and who only obtains an ego through the negation of the non-ego of the Other).

The fact that society has been historically male-dominated doesn't change the fact that feminists are engaging in the exact same process that their predecessor's warned against. The cycle's come to a full circle.

>>2703101
the reality of rape is not compatible with your fantasy. trauma is something far more complex than you imagine.

>>2703101
It's not porn that stops you from rape. It's the threat of incarceration.

Learn to crime and punishment please

>>2703104
maybe "feminists" have, but I don't think that's accurate to say about someone like Judith Butler.

also, big shocker, MEN can be feminists. *gasp*

>>2703098
There is a huge difference in the genres of porn though. you cant compare a mild masturbation scene with Emma Mae, to a hardcore BDSM with Belladonna.

And people who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality are going to have problems with society anyway. They tried to make your argument with video games and violence too, but after years of study there was no evidence to support it.

>>2703115
Much of the stuff that x-art is producing is fucking magical (and non-rapey). Art porn is the future.

>>2703115
just by watching women as sexual you are promoting the male gaze. for those uninitiated, the male gaze is directly linked to rape culture.

>>2703109
I didn't mean to imply that every feminist thinks like that, and in fact I think that the issue of feminism is more pressing than ever. It's just a matter of approaching it differently.

Where did I imply that men can't be feminists?

>>2703122
>undercover anti-feminist or sex-negative feminist

>>2703122

gay porn exists

it not women that are being objectified, but the objects of sexual attraction

this is how sex works

>>2703122


gay porn exists

it is not women that are being objectified, but the objects of sexual attraction, regardless of gender

this is how sex works

The problem with modern "feminists" is that they aren't searching for gender equality, they're searching for a gender advantage. They refuse to acknowledge areas where women have a clear advantageous bias compared to men while scrutinizing anything where men may have the advantage.

Take salaries for example. The biggest bullshit argument in the book "women get payed less than men" is due simply to the fact that women work jobs with lower pay then men. It's stupid to complain that a CEO is getting paid more than a burger flipper because that's just the way it is, but they'll compare a male CEO to a female burger flipper and call it sexism. However they turn a blind eye upon things such as the obvious gender bias within the court systems with rape cases and child custody among parents.

I won't say that sexism doesn't exist, because it certainly does, but it won't go away, just like racism will never go away. Modern "feminism" only exists to promote misandry among women and misogyny among men. Just my two cents.

>>2703121
This. Xart is beautiful. did you say that because of Emma Mae, she did some solo xart?

>>2703122
>just by watching women as sexual you are promoting the male gaze.
What are you talking about? watching women as sexual. Women are sexual. So are men. I am a sexual being.
When I'm having sex am i not supposed to be enjoying it? Do you want me to blindfold myself and chant "this is only for procreation"?

> for those uninitiated, the male gaze is directly linked to rape culture.
Do you know how you sound? Rape isn't something inside every man waiting to be unleashed by a youporn video. Rapists are sociopaths and psychopaths who have no regard for social constructs. Guess what. I watch a lot of porn. Mainly out of boredom. I have been watching a lot of porn since my early teens, so over ten years. And I have yet to have a single rape urge. Not even one. Porn doesn't make men rapists, it makes them jack off.

>>>/hc/
>>>/d/
>>>/h/

>>2703147
the argument against porn isnt that everyone who watches porn will be a rapist, but that the line between dominance fantasy and traumatic reality is confused and injected into the collective cultural consciousness.

>>2703160

The dominance fantasy exists only because it sells. It was a part of the cultural consciousness before porn.

>>2703160
God, the level of inductive neo-psychoanalysis in that argument made me super-frustrat.

>>2703160
right, but people who blur these boundaries are already messed up by the fact their neurological makeup allows them to blur the boundaries. Porn isn't going to make a difference. They are going to go out and rape or kill or cut the heads of dogs or other psycho stuff. This isn't a feminist issue. You just take issue with men openly watching women in porn and try to hide it behind this psuedo-issue.

>>2703149
that gifs making me wet.

>Feminist thread derails into porn recommendation thread

>>2703181
Which is why this place is so much better than "SA or some other community with accountability"

>>2703181
That was my bad. I just have respect for porn that managed to be artistic and not so degrading to the women like >>2703149.

Everyone's a sexual object, but also deserving of some respect accorded to them. The portrayal of women as a non-entity beyond their sexual capacity, to be exploited for the man's pleasure with no consideration of their ego and then discarded is what makes a lot of it misogynist.

Sex is great, guys. Come on.

This thread has made me all horny and shit, what with the porn talk. Brb masturbating to hardcore lesbian bdsm.

>>2703191
Hang on, what if the women in the pic chose to do that, loved every minute of it, and had no regrets about doing it.

Then some 4chan user chose to watch it, loved every minute of it, and had no regrets about watching it. Where is the wrong in that?

>>2703201
I saw tear-streaked mascara and a sad countenance and I made an assumption. You're right, though; it was a presumption. With the prevalence of shit like throat-fucking, there's got to be many people doing it for the money that really don't enjoy it. They don't seem to enjoy it.

BUT they're acting, and this presents another problem. If they're acting a rape scenario consensually, the person getting off to it is still getting off to something which would propagate rape culture.

So we got problems. What do?

This board has the most interesting conversations.

You know, I never really had anything against feminism, first or third wave, although I acknowledge innate differences between the sexes in terms of our cognitive and physical performances (men are from good spatial-relations, women are from good nurturing skills, blah blah blah).

My problem with it is that, in terms of scopes through which we can view and organize the world, feminism is awfully...narrow in its purpose. So things that might not have anything to do with sex or gender are hamfisted into some feminist cubbyhole, and feminists sometimes get very angry when, say, a private school tells them not to wear short skirts and they take it as an afront to their womanhood. Or other examples that cause an ordinary person to say, "why the fuck would you make this about gender roles? It has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles." I mean, I can't really have a discussion with somebody who is that bent on feminism. It has to fit into a broader platform of perspectives, or fuck it.

In terms of 4chan though, /lit/ is just mysognistic. No mystery there.

>>2703219
>skirts
>nothing to do with gender roles
Try harder.

>>2703219
Exactly.

Feminism is the epitome of technological thought. The entire world is reduced into a standing reserve of things to be proved sexist.

>>2703221

>or other examples

But really, just read "or examples". My bad.

>>2703208
>I agree to an extent. Even Sasha Gray has some nasty shit, which i'm pretty certain she enjoyed.

But i'm not sure the problem of watching is as bad as its made out to be. I have watched both a serbian film and the human centipede for entertainment and have not become violent. I think if you specifically choose to watch rape porn, you have a bit of a problem, but there is nothing to suggest acting outside of social parameters. If you're a psycho your going to act outside of said parameters regardless of watching porn.

I support equal pay for women and men performing the same roles. Rape is obviously wrong, whether the victim is male or female. It doesn't only happen in prison.

I also think that the argument about dominance and its link to masculinity is very persuasive, and the demonization of "feminine" traits is a terrible, destructive thing, as much for women as for men.

I do think that there are some unexamined privileges of being a women (someone mentioned custody), but these don't detract from the overall tendency to oppress women and feminity.

I don't think open expression of attraction to a women, providing it's not aggressive like grabbing their ass or boob, is inherently oppressive, though. Some feminists seem to carry on like it is. I've read newspaper articles by them discussing the "creepy" men who whistle at them or whatever.

If you are an unattractive man as per cultural standards, you probably will have to approach more women to succeed sexually, right? So take it easy with the fucking "my vagina is a sacred unassailable kingdom for me to enjoy" shit, ok?

And I really despise this empowerment of women through sex idea popularized by pop stars like Christina Aguillera etc.

>>2703239
>Some feminists seem to carry on like it is. I've read newspaper articles by them discussing the "creepy" men who whistle at them or whatever.
There's a line. Cat-calling and whistling is past it. Most women get very distressed and self-conscious because of those. But I agree with much of what you said.

>>2703239
>And I really despise this empowerment of women through sex idea popularized by pop stars like Christina Aguillera etc.

Holy 2002 batman

>>2703245

No, it's cool, he just misspelled "eating" as "sex".

>>2703243

If it's a group of men and one woman, I can understand this, but one man? Really?

>>2703252
Yes. Even more so, I think. That introduces a perverse intimacy to the situation. Group think would be more understandable, but one lone man instigating that situation is not okay.

>>2703257
By more understandable I DO NOT mean more acceptable, by the way.

>>2703257

So in other words, ugly (which "creepy" is a code word for) guys should be fine with their forever aloneness, right?

>>2702907
>Luce Irigaray actually believes that fluid dynamics is difficult because male physicists are subconsciously afraid of menstrual fluids.

Could you cite the passage where she says this?
I don't have any opinion on Irigaray personally since I've never read her and I'm open to it being the case that she said something like that but experience has shown me that polemics that produce 'examples' of how deserving of ridicule an opponent's position is tend to be producing hyperboles and it gets spouted as a meme. And the more patently ridiculous the presentation of an opponent is the more likely it is that it is the product of very gross misinterpretation.

>>2703262
Do you think whistling at a woman while you pass them is a way to initiate a sexual/romantic encounter? Are you serious?

>ugly (which "creepy" is a code word for) guys
Oh my Sagan, be more butthurt.

>>2703001
>Many many more women get raped than men
http://www.hrw.org/news/2007/12/15/us-federal-statistics-show-widespread-prison-rape
>According to the report, released today by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), “Sexual Victimization in State and Federal Prisons Reported by Inmates, 2007,” 4.5 percent of the state and federal prisoners surveyed reported sexual victimization in the past 12 months. Given a national prison population of 1,570,861, the BJS findings suggest that in one year alone more than 70,000 prisoners were sexually abused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
>FBI reports consistently put the number of "unfounded" rape accusations around 8%.
>U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male
>2008 - 90,427 x 0.91 = 82288.57
plus
>2009 - 89,000 x 0.91 = 80990
divided by 2
>82000ish female rape victims
70000 x 1.09 =
>76300ish male rape victims
Not much of a difference when you take prison rape into account.
Now go die in a fire you feminist piece of garbage.
The 'patriarchy' is not keeping you down;
that's just your innate inferiority to men.

I go where the troll winds blow.

As it currently stands, with stuff like reddit's mensrights board, it actually seems that anti-feminism and "baww nice guys never get laid and get friendzoned" people are more vulnerable to being trolled whereas feminists are sorta just getting used to it.
It reminds me of the religious situation on the internet around 2010 where if you really wanted to provoke someone you'd troll youtube atheists instead of the usual theists because being trolled started to just become part of the typical internet-theist experience and the results weren't as fruitful compared to trolling internet-atheists.

>>2703273
>>U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male

>>2703269

I don't. But perhaps there are quite a few women who like being whistled at, and from past experience, this cat caller has had a positive response from a different woman.

Is the woman who likes being whistled at just a "self-loathing" woman?

I guess my question is: Who are you to mandate all male behavior based on some women's dislike of said behavior. I mean do you have any empirical evidence to support the "this makes most women uncomfortable" statement at all?

>>2703278

Not that guy, but I sorta doubt that the U.S. Bureau of Statistics counts prison rape because nobody really counts prison rape.

>>2703269
It's alright sugar tits, I won't whistle at you.

>>2703083
>Banning porn promotes rape
*fixed

>>2703269

This has nothing to do with me. I am a gay man. Gay men do it to other men all the time.

>>2703282
Yeah, and it's not the kinda thing you admit to either. the stat is prolly 80% of men in prisons have been raped.

>>2703286
Fuck that. I would be pissed off if some gay guys started whistling at me in the street.

>>2703293

usually they do so in a safe place (like a gay village).

>>2703280

>Is the woman who likes being whistled at just a "self-loathing" woman?
I think that's a bit presumptuous. There are contexts where it's more appropriate (read as less potentially distressing) to bring up a woman's sexual characteristics. I don't think that being a stranger to someone is one of those. I'm sure there are women who are fine with that -- and I have nothing against them -- but I think it's better to err on the side of caution against fear and distress because I do know women who have experienced that and all of them were frightened or distressed by that experience.

>Who are you to mandate all male behavior based on some women's dislike of said behavior.
I'm a person with a normative opinion. Different people have different standards of behavior. Oh no.

>I mean do you have any empirical evidence to support the "this makes most women uncomfortable" statement at all?
Only the opinions of many of my female friends. One was whistled at by a driver while I was with her and she was very upset by it. If you're asking whether I have a peer-reviewed sociological article in evidence, no. I don't think I need to.

Being viewed by a stranger as an object to fulfill their desire is never pleasant, no matter who you are. The people who like this, and there are some, are sad masochistic insecure people.

i.e. the gaze is violent. read some lacan and foucault before you even begin to call yourself well-informed

>women are upset at being whistled at

Cry me a fucking river.

Men are upset that they have to die in wars. You know what they do when they're tired of dying for women? They run away to Canada.

Women should just defect to Canada if they can't take the heat.

>>2703299

I agree with you, and your friends (which you may be inventing just to score points in this argument, which people do all the time; this is the internet aftera all) would constitute some kind of evidence, but a counter-argument would be, "birds of a feather" right?

A peer-reviewed sociological article would do nothing but help your case.

>>2703307
>implying that an exclusively male draft would stand in the USA
>2012
>I don't think so.

>>2703303

speak for yourself.

>>2703303
>Being viewed by a stranger as an object to fulfill their desire
Don't worry princess, when you walk by any straight guy we will stare at your ass as you walk past. But we don't want a relationship, we only want to fuck a lil bit.

>i.e. the gaze is violent
dafuq? nigga, you on crack?

>>2703303
>Being viewed by a stranger as an object to fulfill their desire is never pleasant, no matter who you are.

So you can suddenly tell me what I do and do not find pleasant?

>The people who like this, and there are some, are sad masochistic insecure people.

Ah, so whoever does not agree with you is sick and wrong.

You're as bad as heteronormatives who say that homosexuals are unnatural and sick in the head.

You're a fucking criminal if you think taking the default and normative position automatically allows you to prescribe a way of life for others.

>>2703303
>needing to read lacan and foucault to form an opinion on sexual objectification

No.

Also, it doesn't matter who it is, if you're viewed that way, you get the two-edged sword of, "he views me as an object," and, "I'm sexually attractive to people."

The latter of the two is so important to people that this will always be a losing battle for feminists.

>>2703307
it's all violence. sexual violence and bodily violence are in different spheres, I don't think it's quantitatively possible to make the assumption that bodily violence is objectively more traumatic than sexual violence. obviously being on the front line is worse than having a guy look at you on the subway, but i know girls who have been raped in ways that have left them scarred for life physically, sexually, and emotionally. it's all a continuum.

>>2703303

>insulting masochists
>telling people to read foucault

you couldn't make this shit up

>>2703280
Here's one way to put it: Some people enjoy dirty or racist or just in general crude jokes. Some people don't. Would you say that it makes sense to advise someone that it's not wise to tell a dirty joke to someone you just met at work or school or on the bus or whatever? There's a chance the person it's being told to might like it and there's a chance they might not.

A more blunt example would be that some people consider themselves verbal masochists and enjoy being insulted and being called things like "loser" or "piece of shit". That fact that a stranger might be one of these people doesn't necessarily give one a right in an everyday context to start insulting them on the chance that they would like it.

>>2703309
I promise I'm not making them up (there aren't a ton of them, but I'm not much of an extrovert). Your counter-argument is well taken. I do go to a liberal Uni in a veritable bastion of progressivism (esp. for the US).

I guess my whole argument is to proceed conscientiously until you have a grasp of the individual and the context. Because people get hurt, you know?

>>2703325
What do you mean, "the right" to insult people?

If you don't want to be insulted, you have to earn my respect.

Nigga, don't you know? Respect is earned.

>>2703303
>Being viewed by a stranger as an object to fulfill their desire is never pleasant, no matter who you are. The people who like this, and there are some, are sad masochistic insecure people.
>i.e. the gaze is violent. read some lacan and foucault before you even begin to call yourself well-informed

Jesus Christ, can you imagine if some poor guy actually ends up in a relationship with this deluded bitch? You can just image her coming home, checking the internet history, then beating him over the head with a chair for some fleshlight popup.

>>2703323
The erudition of this joke is making me laugh audibly.

>>2703317
im just speaking from personal experience. i was a sub for a while and i quickly realized that the people who take that out of a sexual context and make it their lives are all oppressed people. i do seriously believe that the desire to not have agency over one's body and life is an unhealthy thing.

>>2703336
All of my exes have been submissive to me. All of them. They didn't want to make the decisions. They wanted to defer them to me. I'm not saying all women are naturally submissive, but a great many that I have had healthy relationships with have been submissive. They were the happiest relationships I had.

>>2703325

This makes so much sense, until I think that in my head, a verbal compliment on the attractiveness of a stranger (which is what a catcall is) is nothing like calling someone a loser. The guy is basically saying "hey, you're really attractive" What on earth does that have in common with calling someone a loser?

>>2703344
Because I think typically "you're attractive" = "I want to fuck you." And at the very least, it's likely to be interpreted that way.

>>2703330
the fuck are you on about, fool? everybody knows respect is earned.

>>2703351
To elaborate: not just the opinion that someone is attractive, but the need to vocalize that thought and have the other person made aware of it.

What is so funny is that young girls get so up in arms about men being sexually attracted to them while they're drowning in attention, but you give them 20 years, and age smacks them across the face, and suddenly they're depressed that no guy will look at them that way anymore.

I don't think anybody appreciates something until it's gone.

What about kindness? What about empathy? Fuck your power relations sexuality I just like nice people. All you "yah i just want a bitch i can control" assholes need to go back to your frat houses.

nice guys do win sometimes yknow

>>2703356
>nice guys do win sometimes yknow

You should go and fuck them. I don't think any of them are getting anything.

>>2703343
Same here. I even went out with one girl who was into the idea of rape, and had weird rape fantasies... Of course I obliged.

>>2703357

Some of us are.

>>2703356
>>2703356
>>2703356
>What about kindness? What about empathy?
This was the cornerstone of my whole argument. I'm this one: >>2703353
>>2703351
>>2703326
>>2703299
Thanks for being a nice person (assuming you're nice [which I hope you are]).

>>2703358
Nigga, all of my exes wanted me to take them forcefully in roleplay.

nope masculine culture oppresses women. some women dont want to be submissive all the time, ever consider that. it doesnt make them a man-eating bitch, it just makes them a human.

>>2703353
>not just the opinion that someone is attractive, but the need to vocalize that thought and have the other person made aware of it.

Whats wrong with that? If you see me when i'm out, and you want to drag me back to yours for a filthy hour, come and ask me. you have to be vocal about it. I'll probably say yes

>>2703351

You avoided my question, but point taken. Fucking and the desire to fuck is horrible. We should just play footsies and make indirect eye contact forever. No seriously, I think I get where you're coming from now. Thank you.

>>2703343
>>2703358

fantasy rape is NOTHING LIKE real rape. there is a tremendous difference between sexual exploration and violent trauma. this is really crucial, if nothing else I hope this thread can help you understand that

>>2703367
>some women dont want to be submissive all the time, ever consider that.

Of course I have. I've met some very successful women who were aggressive in their personal lives.

They were mostly married or attached to beta males who submitted to them.

I'm of the opinion that a healthy relationship between two people always has an authority and a sub. It's a relationship of mutual dependence. One gives protection, shelter, and affection, the other gives company, and makes their home.

Power couples between two aggressive folk tend to be... in my experience... quite ugly and distant.

>>2703375
I'm not sure I agree with you. I think they're very uncomfortably close to one another, and I think the point to be taken from this is that our sexuality and the boundaries between what is "acceptable" and what is "not acceptable" and "up for litigation" are very very very slim.

It's a tricky thing, the bedroom. Certainly not black and white.

>>2703351
>"you're attractive" = "I want to fuck you."
Lies.
A person can be objectively good looking, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want to fuck them.
I don't touch anything without an IQ > 120 and at least a little culture.

>>2703372
I'm the anon who's been positing sex-positivity for this whole thread. Go fuck yourself.

>>2703370
This is for the above and you too: the circumstances for mutual seduction and cat-calling on strangers are not the fucking same. Like I said here: >>2703326:
>proceed conscientiously until you have a grasp of the individual and the context
If you are flirting with someone and getting it back, obviously you've crossed the threshold from stranger.

>>2703376
yeah. you always see this in fag/les couples too.

what happens when two betas get together though?

>>2703376
WHAT ABOUT EMPATHY COUPLES LOVE COUPLES

you're too young to be so jaded /lit/

>>2703380
yowch.. must lead to some pretty mean dry spells

I remember when I used to have such ridiculously high standards

>>2703385
Nigga, what the fuck is this "love" shit? I asked for grape drink.

>>2703380
>A person can be objectively good looking, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want to fuck them.
I don't touch anything without an IQ > 120 and at least a little culture.
See my addendum >>2703353. I was talking about the context of cat-calling.

>>2703378
one is safe the other is not and because it isn't safe it's violent and traumatic

>>2703391
>implying rape play with me is "safe"

You have these very cut and dry notions of what goes on in the bedroom, but I assure you that I sometimes push my girl past her limits, and she sometimes does things against my wishes.

Rules tend to disappear when you're in the moment.

>>2703381

DA FUQ. I thanked you for making me understand your position. That shit about fucking was a joke, which "no, seriously though" I thought made absolutely clear.

I seriously don't know what the fuck...

>>2703391
>one is safe the other is not and because it isn't safe it's violent and traumatic

Nope, their both safe for me.

>ctrl-F
>Judith Butler
>1 result

everythingwentbetterthanexpected.jpg

>>2703394
IT'S VERY HARD TO INTO TONE ON AN IMAGE BOARD. I'm really sorry. You can still fuck yourself if you want to though. I've fapped three times today.

Summer is fun.

>>2703384
>what happens when two betas get together though?

It's not pretty.

They both become quickly dissatisfied with one another because neither is willing to make strong moves to the basket. In other words, in a relationship between two people when one is not willing to step up and take control, the relationship stagnates. You either want to be daddy or have a daddy. Human sexuality is fucking weird.

>>2703344
There's a difference between just complimenting someone and cat-calling. The latter can often make people feel uncomfortable whereas that isn't necessarily the case with the former.

>>2703393
>my girl
>my
>girl
>my
>my
>my

>>2703407
And here we go

>>2703388
Not love, limerence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

>>2703405
eeuughh. Who is the nigga on the left? someones been posting shooped pics of him all evening.

>>2703405
All sexually tends to be like this. There's a domination/submission mentality pretty much built in. Doubly so for social animals. I'm not making any normative claims, though.

I know next to nothing about feminism but I would take issue with OP's assertion that most anti-feminst arguments are made against first-wave feminism, which I understand to be the motivation for the suffrage movement and other legislative remedies for inequality. I think most people off the street would acknowledge that women used to not be treated equally under the law and that measures taken to fix that problem were necessary. I think the main hang-up of the typical anti-feminist is that they can't understand how there can be sexual inequality outside of the law. I certainly have had trouble coming to terms with this concept. Pornography, for example, is protected free speech in these United States but can still be sexist because it can make actresses sexual objects. If the typical anti-feminist is anything like me, then he/she will be nonplussed by a feminist's insistence that institutionalized sexism still exists, because the law now treats men and women equally in most cases. So anti-feminists are behind the times. It hasn't even occurred to them that there might be multiple waves of feminism.
I think the other major hang-up anti-feminsts have is that there's a tendency to perceive feminism as anti-male. This mistake is probably encouraged by TV, where feminism is always simplified as a battle of the sexes. I recently watched a Law and Order SVU episode that featured a feminist: she was an unpleasant person who did nothing but drop feminist vocabulary and obviously had it in for all the male cops but treated the female cops deferentially. Men aren't going to be won over by contemporary feminism if they see it as an enemy and well meaning women who similarly misunderstand feminism are liable to dismiss feminists as complainers.
I say all this with nothing but a high school diploma and no training in feminist theory so please forgive me if butchered any feminist concepts or terms.

>>2703405
>They both become quickly dissatisfied with one another because neither is willing to make strong moves to the basket.

>using basketball expressions to explain social dynamics

I love you

>>2703418
Didja read the thread or just post that?

>You either want to be daddy or have a daddy
Fuck you and your Viennese witch doctor pseudo-science.

>>2703423
Who's your daddy, bitch.

>>2703424
I reproduce asexually.
So I suppose, I'm my own daddy.
>2012
>not being able to clone oneself

feminists
if women are born equal to men, then you should have no problem with meritocracy, seeing as everybody is already equal

if women are born unequal, you should have no problem with sociocracy, where the women play to their strengths and the men play to theirs.

therefore, fuck off, pseudo-liberals

>>2703430
whoa whoa whoa

let's not go too fast here. I just want money and legal protection. I don't want to do the jobs of men.

>>2703430
B-But we need to protest something.

>>2703430
If plebes could into dialectics, you wouldn't have produced such a worthless post.

>>2703436
You want the same money, but don't want to do the same job?

>>2703430
>pic related

>MFW im fapping to all the feminist protest pics itt.

Why is this thread suddenly all neo-cons. Why have you forsaken me, /lit/? We were having such a valuable conversation about porn and cat-calls and sexual power dynamics. And now it's this tired bullshit. :(

what are feminists rebelling against now?

>wahh biology is oppressive, lets ignore science

Here is the easiest way to solve this: If women are equal to men, why arent they equal to men?

Hear me out on this.

So humanity (that is to say, homo sapiens) are just starting out. They have developed a very primitive semi nomadic culture based purely on survival. In order to increase their chances of survival, humans had to be as efficient as possible. This led to a sexual division of labor. The men would hunt, and the women would gather. Not only did this allow the stronger (due to the chemical and physical differences) males to hunt at peak effectiveness, it protected the species most valuable asset; women. As the bearers and caretakers of children, women needed to be kept alive as long as possible.

blah blah blah, im baked and dont feel like writing an essay, but you can see where this is going.

The gist of this post it: Humans developed gender roles for a REASON. It was not out of spite or malice towards the female sex, it was just the thing to do to advance and survive. Back to the top, women aren't equal because women ARENT equal. Or else they would have been equals, for the past thousands of years

I HAVE ARRIVED MOTHERFUCKERS.

>>2703430
>meritocracy
lrn2Rawls

>>2703451
>what are feminists rebelling against now?
What have you got?

>>2703447
>We were having such a valuable conversation about porn and cat-calls and sexual power dynamics.

There was nothing valuable about that discussion.

Cat-calls are not harmful. Get a fucking grip on reality, son.

Porn is porn. It's been going on for thousands of years and found its fullest expression with the advent of the Internet age. Ironically, the Internet is also killing professional porn. It will be interesting to see what comes next. X-art seems to be leading the vanguard of sensual stuff.

Sexual power dynamics? What valuable discussion? If you haven't figured out that you need to dominate or submit in a healthy relationship, you don't know what the fuck you're doing with humans. We crave to be the leader or have a leader. There is no in between.

>>2703453
quickly fuck off before anybody notices.

>>2703452
What you're doing there is using description to make prescription; you're conflating "is" and "ought." Just because something is or historically (or evolutionarily) has been some way doesn't mean we should maintain that fact as a cultural and moral gold standard.

If we did that, we would be in constant tribal warfare. It would be totally understandable when my faction wiped out your males and took your women for sex and your kids for slaves (and eventual sex).

Russian feminists have a lot to rebel against, I think you guys should do some more research.

>>2703459
>If you haven't figured out that you need to dominate or submit in a healthy relationship, you don't know what the fuck you're doing with humans. We crave to be the leader or have a leader. There is no in between.
He actually believes this. This is like applying the law of the excluded middle to human behavior. This is absurd. You're attributing a general tendency to a normative universal standard.

>>2703459
That there aren't as many leadertypes as people wanting to be led goes a long way towards explaining why so many people have relationshit problems. We need to have manhood academies (alpha women are welcome to attend) training young boys to take charge, so we can end this endemic of divorce and misery and beta males clogging up 4chan.

>>2703459

The validity of your claims have nothing to do with the level of quality of that discussion, which, by the way, was rather high given the provacative topic.

>>2703462

There are also boundaries to consider. Yes, we evolve and move past certain needs. No, women don't have the endurance or strength of men right now, as per our evolutionary trajectory, and, as such, they are unequal, physically speaking. We can make "oughts" all day about whether or not women should be equal (although, by whose standard?) but women aren't and won't be for a very, very, very long time.

>>2703452

There's still a colonized mindset, the collective conscious of a society that expects women to scream with satisfaction from your small dick. Many women are abused. Many are raped. Violence against women is still rampant, and sexist attitudes are popular. I like the comment that if these kind of attitudes were presented relative to race, they would be a very marginal and highly irrelevant community.

>one race will always be dominant it's just human nature

>>2703478

>>2703459
yes of course there is are you really that brainwashed by the capitalist narrative

>>2703478
Sounds like you could use a little rape, sweetheart.

>>2703480
i am a straight male with a girlfriend.

and you're an irrelevant fuck.

>>2703462
Hm, that is a good point. At this point I would like to state that I am perfectly fine with treating women equally. But Unfortunately I think the differences between the two genders are too great for there to be an effective break down off all social norms ( i.e. never hit a girl, the concept of women as primary caregivers)

>>2703484
>sounds like you could use a little lynching negro

you're not helping your own case.

as a p.s. it's very very dangerous to compare race to gender and sexuality. a lot of pitfalls.

>>2703478

What the fuck is this?

>>2703487

And probably not.

>>2703487
>There's still a colonized mindset, the collective conscious of a society that expects women to scream with satisfaction from your small dick
>i am a straight male with a girlfriend.

>>2703478
Throughout human history, there have been many different states that have been dominant. The Chinese empire stretches back 4000 years. The Dutch, the French, the Mongols, the British.

Cite a period of recorded history where women have been dominant over men. And I'm talking unambiguously matriarchal.

I've heard that some feminists spell woman as "womyn" out of the idiotic belief that woman is a sexist word because it means "from man" on account of the Bible story with Adam's rib.

But no one's actually stupid enough to believe that, right?

So what's the real reason for spelling woman as "womyn?"

Also, how many more letters need to be added to pic related until it's politically correct enough, fuck's sake.

ITT: greentext encounters with feminism

>In library
>Encyclopedia of Feminism
>open random page
>Rape: every man is born a rapist etc. etc.
>new random page
>Psychoanalysis: Freud invented the intravaginal orgasm as a form of male sexual oppression

>>2703473
>No, women don't have the endurance or strength of men right now, as per our evolutionary trajectory, and, as such, they are unequal, physically speaking.
Generally, yes. But I think those sort of criteria should be made irrespective of sex and by ability. If a woman is jacked as fuck and can lift three people, she should get the job before a frail man if the job is to be super good at lifting people (or whatever examples of physical prowess you can come up with). I understand that this will be overwhelmingly male, but only by coincidence. I only care if the hiring procedures or whatever-else-have-you actually discriminate against someone by gender or sex lines.

>cont

>>2703495
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy

>>2703501

i read that lack of testosterone also makes u less intelligent

>>2703504

>Most anthropologists hold that there are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal

>>2703504
>Most anthropologists hold that there are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal,[1][2][3][4][5][6] but possible exceptions include the Iroquois, in whose society mothers exercise central moral and political roles.[7] However, this reluctance to accept the existence of matriarchies might be based on a specific, culturally biased notion of how to define 'matriarchy': because in a patriarchy 'men rule over women', a matriarchy has frequently been conceptualized as 'women ruling over men', whereas in reality women-centered societies are - apparently without exception - egalitarian.[8][9]

You should read wiki before you cite it

>>2703506
"When we hear the word 'matriarchy', we are conditioned to a number of responses: that matriarchy refers to the past and that matriarchies have never existed; that matriarchy is a hopeless fantasy of female domination, of mothers dominating children, of women being cruel to men. Conditioning us negatively to matriarchy is, of course, in the interests of patriarchs. We are made to feel that patriarchy is natural; we are less likely to question it, and less likely to direct our energies to ending it."

Womyn
>Never built anything
>Feel entitled to the world
Yea, nawh, cunt.

If you're stupid enough to acknowledge modern-day feminism as it exists in developed countries as a legitimate concern/movement, yous a stupid nigga.

Enjoy your SlutWalk, idiots.

I keep getting "Our system thinks your post is spam. Please reformat and try again." What's up with that? It literally won't let me finish my >cont

>It must be patriarchal censorship yo

>browsing 4chan
>some feminist was arguing that the disparity in physical strength between the sexes was purely a social construct
>cites the mythological Amazons to support position
>mfw
>I don't have a face because I don't save reaction images

>>2703501

Sure, I agree, absolutely.

>coincidence

Well, it wouldn't really be a coincidence anymore than sexual roles are a coincidence of evolution. It's just a highly likely event that you will find men who have greater strength. As such, you don't have to have an application for every random event in which strength must be accounted for - for the sake of convenience, we assume men are stronger than women, and we rarely run into problems with this assumption.

>>2703514

>Well see, the problem aren't the facts, but how we're viewing them!

This is the intellectual bankruptcy of feminism.

>Be at a friends bbq
>be warned that a militant feminist vegan was on her way
>everyone anxious when she arrives
>my friend grins and walks up to her
>"Would you like a nice thick sausage" he says
>"thats fucking disgusting im a vegan" says the girl
>she glares at him and turns around
>he taps her shoulder
>"i wasn't talking about that thick sausage"
>silence
>and silence
>girl turns around and leaves
>everythingwentbetterthanexpected.jpg

>>2703517
If we womyn haven't built anything it's because you men have never given us the chance to build something. We can't just do things on our you know? We'd like your support

>>2703525
>Well see, the problem aren't the facts, but how we're viewing them!
>This is the intellectual bankruptcy of feminism.

laughingmothersandsisters.jpg

hahahahah my sides

>>2703520
>not having a huge reaction image folder divided into folders

shiggy diggy

>>2703525
Coincidence in the strictest sense, which is that they occur at the same time. I won't deny a correlation, but I will deny categorical conflation. I have a problem with your "assumption" if it dismisses any potential female candidate exclusively on the basis of gender.

It's the same problem I have with >>2703489, which I would have addressed if 4chan's spam prevention wasn't being such a jerk. I think "norms" should only inform predictions about a context until more information about it is available. When I see the word norm there, I dislike it because it is literally normative and transcends context.

>>2703519
>>2703519
>I keep getting "Our system thinks your post is spam. Please reformat and try again." What's up with that? It literally won't let me finish my

Allday erryday nigga. It will take you hours to find out which words are causing it. It's never obvious.

>>2703496
p-please repsond

>>2703541

Assumptions tend to do that in the short term yes, but I wouldn't deny any woman the same opportunity I'd offer a man after adequate appraisal.

>feminism = equal rights for women
nope.jpg
>feminism = women who hate men
nope.jpg
>feminism = a Freudian, Lacanian, and post-Freudian study of the social, cultural, and psychological state of feminity

that's the one. it's mostly just psychoanalysts who write papers for one another. sorry if you thought Susan B. Anthony was the end-all be-all of feminism.

>>2703546

I'm a feminist, and I agree, that shit is lame

>>2703496
>>2703546
It's the same thing as "herstory," which is even more silly. The idea is that the language is inherently patriarchal, so some second-wavers want to recast words by changing their typography.

>>2703528

>>2703496
yeah that's not really taken seriously in Critical Feminism circles. I think it started as just a theoretical. Most leading feminists don't call for radical reforms (with a few notable exceptions)

>>2703528
literally lol'd at "warned that militant vegan feminist was on her way"

>>2703533
Your subtlety can't fool me, he-troll.

>>2703552
>It's the same thing as "herstory," which is even more silly.

Fuck's sake that too. I wouldn't say that's more ridiculous though. Assuming that the original English speakers were Jewish/Christian is just pants on head retarded.

Seriously, do these people know nothing of etymology? Absolutely nothing?

Uh oh guys...we've angered feminism.

Game over man, game over.

>>2703552
>>2703546
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=woman
Apparently, they're onto something. But remember the fallacy from etymology, kids. Words don't just mean something because of what they come from and how they've been used in the past.

>>2703550
>I'm a feminist
I had so much respect for you Benny. But you know what you did? You took that respect and you burned it Benny. You burned it until their were only ashes left.

>>2703560
>Apparently, they're onto something.

No. As your own damn link says, "man" was a gender neutral term meaning person and "woman" originally meant, literally, female person.

>>2703565
Benny is the second worst poster on here, next to ZH or whatever his name is.

>>2703565

Can't please everyone, man. Sorry. You can just ignore it if you want.

>>2703559
God, that wench is ugly.

Hey Femenazi's, why aren't you humanists instead of feminists?

Discrimination and prejudice, that's why.

>>2703562
Do you? 'Latin historia "narrative of past events, account, tale, story," from Gk. historia "a learning or knowing by inquiry; an account of one's inquiries, history, record, narrative."'

Thanks for agreeing with me though. ;)

>>2703568
>You can just ignore it if you want.

As of now your trip will be filtered. Sorry it had to come to this, but some shit just won't be tolerated.

>>2703566
With that comes the assumption that "human beings" are male if you need to prefix them with an indicator of female.

>>2703572

Damn, harsh. Later on, man.

>>2703572

Has it occured to you that you're being a faggot? Not only is Benny not a bad trip, you're being an asshole here for no reason.

>>2703576
>>2703571
Yeah not everyone can be expected to know that history comes from the Greek word "historia," meaning inquiry.

Anyone who doesn't have the common sense to realize that the original English speakers were not the same people as the ancient Hebrews is a fucking moron.

>>2703573
Oh boo hoo. Point is the word has fuck all to do with the Bible.

>>2703571
Yeah not everyone can be expected to know that history comes from the Greek word "historia," meaning inquiry.

Anyone who doesn't have the common sense to realize that the original English speakers were not the same people as the ancient Hebrews is a fucking moron.

>>2703573
Oh boo hoo. Point is the word has fuck all to do with the Bible.

>>2703581
I didn't say anything about the Bible.

?

>>2703583
see >>2703496

Honestly I consider myself rather pro-feminist, or at least I'm not a misogynist like so many others here but shit like "womyn" and "herstory" piss me the fuck off.

>>2703583
Oops. The original guy did. Sorry. I just scanned his question and assumed he was talking about an etymology of "women" which was based on the male counter part.

My fault.

>>2703555
>the correct answer
>completely ignored

stay 4chan 4chan

>>2703600
Who's to say it was ignored. I certainly read it. In fact, it was concise enough that I had nothing to add.

/thread

>>2703609
I think we did a pretty good job. I'll assent to a /thread though.

As a male, I feel bad for contributing to rape culture. This is how I was made to feel for most of my life.
The strange part is I never even kissed a girl until I was 22, so the message was obviously not intended for me. I was never victimizing women, no matter what I've been accused of for simply being male.

OP here

yeah this shit was pretty crazy. i posted a lot more than i let on, but it was fun. gnight all.

>>2703625
>kissing a girl
You scum how dare you perpetuate rape culture by objectifying womyn in such a deprived manner. Misogynist pig.

>>2703626
wait. were you actually the pro-porn person?

>>2703643
Nope, that was me. :)

>>2703639
She kissed me. She kept looking at me and leaning in close, obviously waiting for me to initiate. Little did she know doing so was tantamount to rape in my mind.
Such is life in you ess and ay for a loser of my caliber.

>>2703673
How do you feel since kissing a real girl? have you had... "the urges" yet? If you have, you should start taking xanax or something before you end up creeping the streets at 3am with a blade and a tortoise looking for victims. Its a slippery slope, just like the first time you inject cannabis.

can someone explain me why some anons hate Benny Profane so much? It has been about three days in a role that I've heard that Benny is "one of the worst tripfags" and things like that, yet in general his comments seem kind of neutral (the ones I've read), they don't seem to bring much to the table but he also does not seem as a troll nor a rantler.

DECEMBER BOYS GOT IT BAD

DECEMBER BOYS GOT IT BAD

>>2703698
Go away, Benny.

>>2703690
Feels like shit, partly because she left town shortly afterward. She seemed to like me, though.

>>2703698
We don't really have that many tripfags here. benny and sunhawk are the most frequent posters so naturally get the most hate. bennys pretty harmless, sunhawk is a goon though.

Why do you people keep throwing words such as "logic" and "reality" around?

>>2703704

I don't stoop that low.

Gender roles are for the simple-minded and foolish.

Why would you want to be a hypermasculine dominative brute or a submissive gossipy bitch?

>>2703698
People on /lit/ are pretty much conditioned to hate any tripfag who's even slightly notable. It's pretty understandable imo even if, in this case, Benny is pretty non-problematic and actually a cool dude.

>falling into the dominative/submissive dynamic
>2012

no if or buts

let's be rational now

>>2703698
over the last 6 months /lit/ has become filled with mongoloids.

Meanwhile, in the real world of people earning actual money, feminism is a joke

There's a reason they flock to universities: they are too entitled to succeed anywhere else

>>2703263
Not that guy, but I've read it in her. I can't remember where exactly (I think it was in an anthology, which is why I can remember the specific book), but here's a somewhat scholarly article to start you off with:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/dawkins.html

It includes a quote from her on it and also her famous claim that E=MC2 is sexist.

>>2703496
I think the fact that "woman" has five letters while "man" only has three clearly indicates that men are only three-fifths of a woman.

I'm being oppressed.

>>2703785
fucking womyn

I now declare that we shall no longer be referred to as man but as mannn or mennn

As it is said so shall it be done

amen

>>2703745
At my university a friend of mine went around with a clipboard and got all the female freshers to sign a form to end suffrage for women. He had this little speech planned where he would use the term suffrage in place of suffering. and got over 100 girls to sign it and print their names. He then scanned the signatures and sent them to the recently formed feminist society online, after they had been foolish enough to set up a blackboard without restrictions. The entire feminist society was a laughing stock for the rest of that year.

>>2703795
I remember that Man Show episode, it was pretty good

>>2703798
Is that Joe Rogans show?

Fucker. I never knew he stole the idea. Did they also do a water one asking people to ban dihydrogen monoxide (H20)? coz he did that too. I knew that wasn't his originally, I never knew he copied the suffrage one though.

>>2703802
>have this one friend who's always hilarious as fuck
>watch the simpsons/arrested/whatever variety comedy show
>see all the jokes he told right there

You feel so cheated. Fuck you, Andrew.

>>2703795
The Feminist Society at my uni always tried to be edgy or something, they've brought up "Tampon Parties" the few times I sat in on student government meetings. They pretty much get laughed off.

>>2703703
Aww shit yeah nigga

>Big Star pic unavailable

>>2702997
>>2702956
>>2703005
>>2703017
Wow, this is almost beautiful in how apt it is.

>>2703062
>>2703062

Never post here again.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/fashion/new-yorks-literary-cubs.html?pagewanted=all

I am not pro-feminist or anti-feminist, but I am anti-machismo.

That said, the best feminists were Beauvoir and Virginia Woolf. Disregard everything else. If you want to understand gender relations, read Shakespeare.

Theory is ridiculous and only the most boring and simple-minded flock to it.

Only one person has ever understood women, and his name was Henry James.

>>2704742
Talent. Not genius.pic related Nah, kidding.

So, he's that good? I'm pretty sure you're the only guy on the board that keeps hyping him. I've got Portrait of a Lady sitting around.

Will James' knowledge help me to manipulate women into sucking my dick?

itt: anti-feminists using pop culture definitions to justify their sexism.

have fun being a part of socially irrelevant normative society guys. cant wait to see the slogans on your placards in the coming years.

>>2704760
You'll more than likely become a woman yourself.

>>2704766

itt: people making blanket assertions, not quoting anyone in specific or making an argument of any kind

No one here will win the argument against feminism, whichever wave, because they're still anthropological optimists/humanists.

Let's go over some major 3rd wave fem. arguments.

I. Sex is a social construct. History of Sexuality, Gender is performative, science can't prove the gender binary (Anne Fausto Sterling, sexing the body, etc)

a. the gender binary doesn't have to be 100% validated by biology, we've had it for thousands of years before science. We understood what females means then, before 19th century science which is the paradigm feminists deconstruct.

b. science can't get a transparent definition of what life is, what death is (google "changing definitions of death" without quotes).

b2. We don't have a scientific consensus on what "hot" and "cold" is, that doesn't mean that hot and cold are meaningless terms.

c. pragmatism would mean that Roissy is correct and that women are inferior.


II. Women aren't accomplished and are different from men because of 5,000 of arbitrary cultural momentum.

a. While this COULD be true it's impossible to prove, it could ALSO be true that women are actually what the patriarchy say they are, and that their domination by men wasn't arbitrary choice but rational in accordance with human nature. Both explanations don't contradict empirical history.

a2. the narrative is that any female underperformance is explained away by vestiges of the patriarchy but it could also be that women are naturally inferior in many respects and 50 years of empowerment hasn't produced any great results. Women still go for girly things, are still hypergamous sluts, still frivolous and read shitty romance novels, and the gender divide is as great as ever, men watch internet porn, women read 50 shades of grey. The great feminist experiment is a failure; of course the feminist can always argue that we haven't gone far enough in gender free socialization but all empirical evidence shows that there has been close to zero progress in closing the gender gap.

b. Feminists take freaks on the margin (trannies, lesbians, etc) as the paradigmatic case but those cases are very rare minorities and they don't determine what's essential. Lots of babies are born without limbs and various other organs, autistic, retarded, etc, those babies don't determine what a healthy baby is, similarly freakish GID people don't determine what sexuality essentially is. They're sick.

Throw out the idea of equality and secular humanism as the axiom of your worldview and feminism will appear hopelessly puerile and superficial as a decadent rebellion against the cosmic order.

>>2704742
Stendhal and Flaubert too.

Feminists will never see their equality paradise; Roissy is already spreading like wildfire across the internet culture and MRA blogs are getting more and more mainstream attention. The marriage strike is well underway.

You can only get away with being delusional for so long; the Soviet Union lasted but 70 years and it's unlikely that feminism will last much longer than that.

When I have lectured to audiences of literary critics, I have found two pervasive philosophical presuppositions in the discussions of literary theory, both oddly enough derived from logical positivism. First there is the assumption that unless a distinction can be made rigorous and precise it isn’t really a distinction at all. Many literary theorists fail to see, for example, that it is not an objection to a theory of fiction that it does not sharply divide fiction from nonfiction, or an objection to a theory of metaphor that it does not sharply divide the metaphorical from the nonmetaphorical. On the contrary, it is a condition of the adequacy of a precise theory of an indeterminate phenomenon that it should precisely characterize that phenomenon as indeterminate; and a distinction is no less a distinction for allowing for a family of related, marginal, diverging cases.

People who try to hold the assumption that genuine distinctions must be made rigid are ripe for Derrida’s attempt to undermine all such distinctions. Culler, by the way, shares this assumption. For example, he claims that the fact that an expression can be both used and mentioned in the same sentence somehow weakens the distinction that philosophers and logicians make between the use and mention of expressions (pp. 119-120). In the same vein, he supposes that the fact that a single utterance might express a conscious speech act of one type and an unconscious one of another type is a serious problem for the theory of speech acts (p. 124). He also mistakenly supposes that the theory of speech acts seeks some sort of precise dividing line between what is and what is not a promise (p. 135). But in fact it is a consequence of the theory that in real life there can be all sorts of marginal cases within each family of speech acts.

I'm anti-feminist, not because I don't support woman's rights, really (as a woman, how can I not), but sometimes I see women doing feminist things and it's so aggressively stupid that I just dig my heels into the ground and say, No. Not if it's going to be like this. I'm not even sure what feminists want anymore.

The same is true for sexuality.

If a man performed as a woman he is a liar, a transvestite and a freak.
A human being can perform being an Orangutan, can dress up as an Orangutan, can make other people believe that he's an Orangutan. In fact scientists have made fake animals and made real animals believe that the fake animals are real, with the robots performing animality. It doesn't make the robots any more animal.

Third wave feminism? In 20 years First wave feminism will be shat on and women will lose the right to vote.

Proof: Men passed all the feminist legislations, male feminists abound, men take all the blame and none of the credit.

How many women support the MRA?

How many women support financial abortions?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kirsten-west-savali/fathers-financial-abortion_b_1015286.html


>>2704812
>>not because I don't support woman's rights, really (as a woman, how can I not)
Selfish swine.

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/are-women-less-appreciative-than-men/

Men thank their wives much more in Academy Award speeches than women thank their husbands.

Some of the greatest female characters are created by men.

Emma Bovary, Anna Karenina, Isabel Archer, etc.

A woman has never created a great male character. Men don't gush over Mr. Darcy, but women empathize deeply with the characters above.

Men invented the pill.
Men gave women the right to vote.
Men passed the Great society laws for single mothers.

What have women done for men lately? Ever?

>>2704811
lol wat

Derrida fucked his grad students and did drugs.

>>Of course Men are gonna do all that legislation shit, since there are hardly enough women in politics to begin with.
And where are all the female legislators clamoring for men's rights? Or even vocal female MRA supporters?

>>Think back to when the pill was invented, how many women were there in that research field?
Women now go into college in larger number than men, where are their accomplishments?

They take up the spaces for all the easy professional jobs - doctors, lawyers, writers, journalism, professors, etc.

Women flunk in finance and startups because those jobs require real work.

blox

Women read gossip magazines; they're basically "HOW TO MANIPULATE HIM" guides.

Girls gossip, constantly. Knowledge = power. They are power hungry in the social scene.

Women are controlled by female group-think. If you socialize with women, you'd know.

Look at the books women read.

The House of Mirth - Lily Bart is a scheming, manipulative bitch. It's one of Wharton's most successful novels, and the readers are all women.

Pride and Prejudice - Lizzy Bennett - reads everyone's mind all the time.

Emma - Matchmaker.

Wuthering Heights - Hypergamy? This is polyamory. Bitch tries to play two men, have it all. A classic.

Women love James' Portrait of a Lady. Isabel is a scheming, self-entitled, over-inflated egoistical, shrewdly calculating twerp. A girl on tumblr said that "Isabel's thoughts were exactly her own".

You think they don't know about hypegamy?

Roissy
>>Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you… Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less… Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.

Stendhal
>>Julien abandoned himself to his great happiness only at times when Mathilde could not read it in his eyes. He scrupulously performed the duty of addressing a few harsh words to her from time to time. Whenever her sweetness, which he observed with astonishment, and her unquestioning devotion to him were about to rob him of all his self-control, he had the courage to leave her abruptly.

Roissy
>>Keep her guessing. True to their inscrutable natures, women ask questions they don’t really want direct answers to. Woe be the man who plays it straight – his fate is the suffering of the beta. Evade, tease, obfuscate. She thrives when she has to imagine what you’re thinking about her, and withers when she knows exactly how you feel.

Stendhal
>>He knew very well that the next morning, by eight o’clock, Mathilde would be in the library; he did not go there until nine o’clock, burning with love, but with his head dominating his heart. Not one minute went by, perhaps, without his repeating to himself, “I must keep her constantly occupied with this great doubt: ‘Does he love me?’ Her brilliant position, and the flattery of everyone who speaks to her, make her a little too sure of herself.”

>>2704795
>You can only get away with being delusional for so long; the Soviet Union lasted but 70 years and it's unlikely that feminism will last much longer than that.

I feel like there might be something to this.

>>2704813
>In 20 years First wave feminism will be shat on and women will lose the right to vote.

But that's a bit much.

Woman! experience might have told me
That all must love thee, who behold thee:
Surely experience might have taught
Thy firmest promises are nought;
But, plac’d in all thy charms before me,
All I forget, but to adore thee.
Oh memory! thou choicest blessing,
When join’d with hope, when still possessing;
But how much curst by every lover
When hope is fled, and passion’s over.
Woman, that fair and fond deceiver,
How prompt are striplings to believe her!
How throbs the pulse, when first we view
The eye that rolls in glossy blue,
Or sparkles black, or mildly throws
A beam from under hazel brows!
How quick we credit every oath,
And hear her plight the willing troth!
Fondly we hope ’twill last for ay,
When, lo! she changes in a day.
This record will for ever stand,
“Woman, thy vows are trac’d in sand.”

>>2704857

why the ragespam?

Roissy

>>Women want to feel like they have to overcome obstacles to win a man’s heart… The man who gives his emotional world away too easily robs women of the satisfaction of earning his love. Though you may be in love with her, don’t say it before she has said it.


The Red and the Black
>>He was astonished by the sorrow in her eyes; it was so intense that he scarcely recognized them. He felt his strength abandoning him, so mortally painful was the act of courage he was imposing on himself. “Those eyes will soon express nothing but cold disdain,” he thought, “if I give into the joy of loving her.”

Sixteen Commandments Of Poon

>>Make her jealous. Flirt with other women in front of her. Do not dissuade other women from flirting with you. Women will never admit this but jealousy excites them. The thought of you turning on another woman will arouse her sexually. No girl wants a man that no other woman wants.

The Red and the Black

>>“Answer me at least,” she said at length in a supplicating tone of voice, but without daring to look at him. …”So Madame de Fervaques has stolen your heart from me…Has she made for you all the sacrifices to which my fatal love led me?”
>>A gloomy silence was Julien’s only answer.

> A girl on tumblr said that "Isabel's thoughts were exactly her own".

lolololol

I enjoyed reading your posts, Mister J. Derrida.

>>2704861

This is what people with retarded beliefs do. They just bomb threads with mountains of information and yell "IF YOU CAN'T REFUTE THIS THEN I AM RIGHT".

Holocaust deniers do it. Racists do it. Misogynists do it. It's a standard Stormfront/pol tactic.

>>2704903
The standard position nowadays is that feminism is true until prove false; I was asked to provide arguments and so I did.

I could just post snarky questions and image macros but then I'll be dismissed as jocular and irrelevant.

Feminism is in it's third wave. Meaning they've fucked up twice so far.

can i be a rapist and a feminist? rypist or something?

Equity feminism is where it's at.

Seconding de Beauvoir and Woolf and I'll add some Camille Paglia into the mix.

It's feminism that makes sense and isn't misandric.

Women are dumb. men are dumb. but women are dumbererer.

So many chicks posted pic related on my FB status, shouting "Damn right!" "Equality!" and other nonsense, when they don't have the slightest concept that they're screaming about fake statistics like a bunch of headless chickens. women are fine as individuals, but in large feminist groups, how can anyone take them seriously?

Eh. As a woman, this thread makes me rather sad. Isn't it downright cruel to judge such a large group of people solely because of what's between their legs, rather than to judge them individually?

>>2705063
>> Isn't it downright cruel to judge such a large group of people solely because of what's between their legs, rather than to judge them individually?

>>Isn't it downright cruel to judge such a large group of people because of what they did once instead of judging them individually?
>>Isn't it downright cruel to judge millions of applicants because of a tiny portfolio and two recommendation letters?
>>Isn't it downright cruel to judge the capability of interviewees based on a 30 minute talk?

To not judge is not the same thing as judge as equal and when you say "why can't we judge them on an individual basis" you don't mean "let's judge them one by one" but "since it's impossible to judge them on an individual basis we're just going to assume that men and women are equal and BASE PUBLIC POLICY ON THAT FUNDAMENTAL ASSUMPTION AND CORRECT WAGES/OPPORTUNITIES AS IT WERE KNEW THAT MEN AND WOMEN WERE EQUAL."

What does "judge individually mean"? How the fuck is the state, when deciding public policy that affects hundreds of millions of people, suppose to "judge individually"?

"Judge individually" is Orwellian speak for "just assume that men and women are equal and correct any inequalities as if they were artificial".

Should women be paid equally? Who knows, if "judge individually" is the slogan we should repeal Title IX since that gives women an artificial boost if in reality they were in fact less productive; do you know for sure that they are just as productive? Every single anti-discrimination law does not judge individually but judges the two sexes as equal, something completely unprove.

>>2705063
The state has given women boosts in a million different ways since the 1960s. Should we repeal all of them? After all, if a corporation decides that there are no good female executives, how is the state to know otherwise?

The state doesn't decide individually.

What is the upshot of "judge individually"? It's not exactly "judge individually", it's "assume that the sexes are equal and create public policies based on that assumption."

To truly judge individually is no guarantee that women are in any way equal to men nor does actually judging individually mean that we should default to the position that men and women are equal absent absolutely verified evidence; equality is no more privileged than inequality.

>>2705063
You know what's downright cruel?

Letting women run amok and destroy their own lives and the lives of the people around them.

You know what's downright cruel? Letting your children drown in the lake because you decide to give them too much freedom. Not supervising your children is parental abuse.

99% of women are perennially children regardless of how accomplished they are.

http://atmo4.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/02/thoughts-on-the-rihanna-chris-brown-colla
boration/253466/

Is it any wonder that our literature and music got all really angsty and depressing after WomenLib?

Bump?

Where are all the feminists now?