/lit/ - Literature

A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson

No, a variety of causes have contributed to modern European antisemitism.

In antiquity, religion was a social dealie with lots of ritual, mostly revolving around keeping capricious and vengeful gods from hurling thunderbolts at your city. When one guy pisses off the local tutelary deity, that deity isn't too discerning about where he lobs a plague. Just read the first book of the Iliad for proof. In addition to the gods being huge pricks, there are many of them, and they are not transcendent. If your culture was defeated and integrated by a rival culture, typically the tacit assumption would be "welp, their gods were stronger, ours were weak, clearly propitiating these ones would be better." They were also heavily tied to locale; even the earlier Hebrew forms of YHWH are very traditional looking, bound to mountains and other Canaanite sites, and probably considered special only in that it was their particular God. The Torah is littered with evidence that the Hebrews originally believed in many gods, and of course much of it is ripped wholesale from the greater Near Eastern mythological zeitgeist.

What differentiated the Hebrews, later the Jews, is that they developed a transcendental conception of godhead. Their god was the one true god, not bound by locale, not limited in power, etc. Even more abstract than Akhenaten's solar monotheism, which was still just the sun. The Babylonian Exile meant being separated from their ancestral shrines and holy places, and it transformed their vision of their national/ethnic deity, their relationship with him, and thus their sense of solidarity. This made them get along poorly with gentiles, who felt threatened by the Jews' refusal to propitiate vengeful deities, didn't "get" their religious perspective, and mocked their peculiar customs.

>>2630108
The Romans had several massive wars with them over these issues, narrowly averting total genocide a few times, but generally let them be out of respect for the religion's antiquity. Because of their extremely peculiar traditions, they already lived in ghettos in the Near East, notably in Alexandria where they regularly feuded with the Greek population. When the religion of a random Jewish messiah claimant named Joshua started catching on in the Empire, his adherents naturally considered the Jews to be "Christ (messiah) killers" who rejected the final prophet of the Lord. More bad blood.

In the following eras, Jews were allowed to integrate with xenophobic Christian European society, but still had to live in ghettos, and often functioned as whipping boys when the rabble was itching for a pogrom. They were uniquely allowed the profession of moneylending, forbidden to Christians, and so developed a reputation as heartless misers. Rulers often confiscated their property on spurious grounds for a quick cash grab, too. Over time, their isolation, persecution, and sense of ethnoreligious solidarity galvanized them even further, making them staunchly protective of fellow Jews, and determined to survive and thrive in a hostile gentile society.

>>2630109
This determination and their devout religio-literary and rabbinical traditions created the conditions for a lot of scholars and intellectuals to spring out of Jewish communities. This was exploited by many rulers, especially in places like Renaissance Italy, creating an association of Jews with European gentry, high positions of state, high finance, intelligentsia, etc. Over time the European aristocratic gentry faded and evolved into its modern oligarchic and plutocratic forms, but the Jews went along for the ride. Fast forward to the modern day and it's plainly demonstrable that Jews have a hugely disproportionate level of influence in media, business, finance, and the intellectual elite. Mercantilist America was a particularly fertile pasture for them.

These modern connections were the basis for the illegal, immoral and frankly retarded creation of modern Israel, and thus modern imperialist Zionism and its various branches (eg. the ADL, Dershowitz, Orwellian persecution of "Holocaust denial," general sensitivity to antisemitism [both Jewish and inculcated into gentiles]). Modern Jews are tolerated by the elites as a distinct but useful intelligentsia, in partnership with the gentile one, and neither side sees integration as a possibility.

>>2630108
why did people come up with asshole gods?

>>2630108
>>2630109
>>2630112
Shouldn't of treated the jews like shit then.

~signed, a fellow jew.

>>2630112
>Modern Jews are tolerated by the elites

>elites
what? you mean corporation CEOs?

Read Constantine's Sword.

>>2630114

To keep their neighbors in line.

>>2630114
That's an anthropological issue. No one really knows. But it is a common feature across almost all religions that the Gods are vengeful, interact with humans, demand sacrifice and deference, etc. One of the major reasons the Christians and Jews were so persecuted was that they had to refuse to sacrifice to the traditional gods, endangering everybody. It was just a matter of fact to the ordinary person that not properly sacrificing and propitiating the gods was inviting a tidal wave or earthquake to fuck up your city. You can see it all over the Torah and especially Pentateuch, even. Noah's flood is a ripoff of a shared Near Eastern deluge tradition going back to Atrahasis. It's virtually lifted word for word. Even the Egyptians have their own version.

I think the standard theory is something to do with anthropomorphizing nature as having desire and will to explain its vicissitudes. The early Indo-European deities that become the gods of descendent civilizations (Rome, Greece, various Anatolian, probably Hindu, Celtic, Germanic) almost invariably have a "sky god" like Zeus/Jupiter or a similarly named "thunderer" that typifies nature's ability to provide or destroy. Sumer, the first civilization, was obsessed with gods that mirror geographical features which would have dogged early agricultural communities: they had to work with notoriously difficult river systems, and their primary gods involve "taming the waters," the "Sweet Waters" or "Bitter Waters," etc. I think the chief god of the pantheon had rivers flowing from his shoulders. A leading theory on the origin of deluge myths is that they reflect the omnipresent threat of catastrophic flooding and changing of river courses.

>>2630118
They were treated like jews, ie. differently.


>>2630112


I can sort of see why Hitler felt the need to go holocaust mode, but at the same time perhaps he could have incorporated (obviously not intergrated) jews.

>>2630118
This is why people hate Jews, right here. A random Jewish dude on the Internet justifying the illegal murder of Palestinians, rampant media censorship and propaganda, and the hoarding of nukes by an imperialist nationalist religio-irrendentist war state supported by US realpolitik, because he's been duped into thinking he has more in common with the perpetrators than with the people he lives among. Zionism.

>>2630166
What a fucktard.

>>2630167
He seem pretty reasonable actually.

OP, read up on the Talmud.

It's an ancient Jewish text on Jewish ethics.

In this text they say that Non-Jews are just as low as animals, and it's alright to sin against them however you want (theft, usury, rape, etc).

Don't believe me? Do some research.

>>2630164
I suspect Hitler went all holocaust because the jews were superior to the aryans. They were the main competition.

I believe fyodr wrote a poem about how jews
Were the cancer of russia. I think the word jew lost meaning.

>>2630171

He had a few valid points, but he threw them out the window with that last word.

>>2630171
You've got to be kidding. His post is a typical left wing rant.
Why has the left taken the cause of Palestinians as their own? It makes no sense. There is slavery in the world. There is genocide. There are better causes than the Palestinians.

>>2630182
Literally everything in this post is a fallacy.

During the war, people from my country (Ireland) loved hitler and hated jews for lots of reasons.

1. Hitler was fighting England. Fuck England.

2. Hitler was fighting the godless communists. The godless communist revolution was a Jewish revolution. Lenin and Trotsky were Jewish.

3. Hitler was dealing with the Jewish problem domestically too. Jews ran the capitalist-industrial complex and kept all their Jew-gold to themselves.

4. Jews killed Jesus (Remember I'm not saying any of this - this is the reasoning behind much of the antisemitism).

5. They always stick to themselves because they think they're better than everyone else, running around with fur coats and fancy cars while we starve to death in the streets.

6. The live in abject poverty in the gutters and spread disease.

... you'll notice at least two pairs of those directly contradict each other, but there you have it.

And don't dare think this was just a German/Nazi thing. EVERYONE hated the Jews.


It all seems very silly to me too, anon.

>>2630187
Answer my question.
Why has the left taken the cause of Palestinians as their own?
Rather than slavery or genocide?

Why people hate the Jews today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nBzJdQB5r4

>>2630190
Well eat a fuckin' potato.

>>2630182

>>2630198

I expect more from /lit/ than trite cliches. Ireland's economy is collapsing. Our politicians are jokes. Our education and health care systems are in a shambles. Our national sovereignty is in question and our currency is on the brink, but the best you can come up with is "eat a potato", a reference that is literally 166 years out of date?

For shame.

>>2630193

the Palestinian cause as well as slavery and genocide are not left-and-right issues, they are human issues. It doesn't matter who stands up for what is right, it only matters someone does.

>>2630204
I apologise for being emotional. No place for that on /lit/. But your post, you hate Jews. What the fuck? So I repeat... eat a fuckin' potato!

>>2630193
>>2630182
You have done well, goyim

>>2630175
I wasn't considering the details like that, I was more thinking along the lines of how they would function as ideal separatists (and so scapegoats) to a very intolerant fascist government. The line " Modern Jews are tolerated by the elites as a distinct but useful intelligentsia, in partnership with the gentile one, and neither side sees integration as a possibility." sort of highlighted this for me. If there was a strongly fascist government in which faith must be placed in the state ideology (that rejects other ideologies), judaism would present an influential opposition.

>>2630217
But who is standing up against slavery and genocide? The left is obsessed with the cause of Palestinians. Why?

>>2630112
So, basically, because Jews practiced moneylending and didn't give a fuck about the "evils" of materialism like a lot of their contemporaries, they have a longer genealogy of capital and, thus, influence?

Like, really, it's kind of just a coincidence that Jews didn't give a fuck about materialism, they were just reveling in it more openly before others did. Or perhaps because of the Jewish materialism, they gained power and influence, and thus society became materialistic and capital became the end goal of all advanced nations?

>>2630224
I don't see anyone answering my question. Is there no answer that isn't embarrassing?

>>2630228

Who is 'the left', first of all? American Liberals? They've taken up the cause of Palestine because it's an important issue.

>>2630236

>>2630237
And European liberals.
>an important issue
Why this issue instead of slavery or genocide or Kurds or Armenians etc etc.

The Jews are slimy little rats worming their way into white countries and pushing multiculturalism + mass immigration of non-whites while keeping their own nation pure.

>>2630245

Who knows? Probably the 24-7 media cycle is partially to blame, most people don't bother to keep themselves informed. It doesn't make the issue of Palestine unimportant.

>>2630245
>"Don't murder brown people. It's wrong."
>WHY ARE ABOUT THE BROWN WHEN SOME YELLOW GUYS ARE GETTING SHOT TOO? HUH? HUH? WHY DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT THE YELLOWS? YOU'RE LIBERAL! LIBERALLLLL!!

fuuuuuuckin please be a troll

>>2630118
>Shouldn't of
>jew

>my fucking face when

>>2630228
Because they're the opponents of the left's opponents. Enemy of my enemy, so on.

But this doesn't mean that the left is wrong to do so. Israel and Palestine are both terrible, but it depends on what part of the spectrum you're on. The right indirectly supports institutions that directly support Israel. The left simply oppose these institutions.

>>2630257
>Israel and Palestine are both terrible

i think a US military salient that refuses to sign nuclear nonproliferation treaties while it brutalizes and colonizes the ancestral land of a dirt poor arab community because an ancient book told them to is a little worse than "THIRD WORLD ARAB SHITHOLE #845819"

I smell JIDL.

>>2630247
LOL!

You got that guy so mad.

So none of the anti semitic lefties in this thread are capable of answering a simple question. Is it because the Soviet Union supported the Palestinians and since the USSR has ceased to exist you have no one to take your marching orders from so you just plod on in the old direction?

>>2630269

You will not be dignified with a response. Get on my level if you're trying to make a salient point.

>>2630269

It stems back to the fact that Jews run the banks that run the world.

>>2630269

>>2630217

That's pretty much the answer.
It's not a right/left issue.
If you're of the opinion that Palestine is the problem
then congratulations, you're what's holding us back as a species.

>>2630271
I've been asking a salient question that no one seems able to answer.

>>2630277

You've been answered twice now.

A salient question;

What is the point to you?

>>2630269

see:
>>2630257

Otherwise, 5/10 for spam

>>2630282
The 'answers' have been absolutely pathetic.

>>2630294
אני להביס אויבים האל על ידי חזרה על שטויות לנצח

>>2630297
לא חרא שרלוק

>>2630297
רומז מה שאתה אומר זה שטויות

>>2630304
יותר כמו בולשיט מוחלט

>>2630305
Ever hear of google translate?

ITT

>>2630181
wut

I'm not sure how a criticism of the culture of Zionism somehow invalidates...a criticism of the culture of Zionism.

>>2630413

That word connotes a slew of unfounded conspiratorial notions in my experience

>>2630267
>I smell JIDL.

/lit/ is infested with jews.

>>2630443

[*citation needed]

>>2630234
Jews, religiously, were allowed to practice moneylending to gentiles - with interest.
This is how they made money. Earliest (and biggest) banks in Europe were Jewish. Jews were making money out of people's debts. This wasn't the case in Muslim countries, since interest isn't allowed so they prospered more in Europe, even though there probably was more anti-semitism there - at the time - then in Muslim countries.

Banks are the vanguards of American Capitalism, and capitalism, is without a doubt, all the United States cares about. Jews mean a lot to them. Also hardcore Christians in the US support the Jews (and thus vote for pro-Israel parties) because there's some verse in the old testament where God says he will protect the nation who helps this (Jewish) one. I forget where.

>>2630228
Palestinians are Socialists. It's very simple, and unfortunately, they aren't -obsessed- with it. If you are supportive of what Israel is doing there, or dismissing it as something 'not so important' you're a fucking retard. This itself is genocide, and is definitely more important than issues such as the Armenian genocide because this is ONGOING. Someone has to put an end to this.

>>2630447
You must be new here.

Ask /lit/ for a history of Palestine and Israel.

JIDF is a very real entity. Go do some looking for yourself.

>>2630419
Perhaps, but Zionists describe themselves using that exact term, so it is neither contentious nor offensive, and the fact that it is associated with a strong sense of Jewish nationalism and collective identity is a given. That it has been partially co-opted by conspiracy nuts is a rather recent trend, and I don't think it has that connotation outside of Amurka and maybe Britain.

>>2630277
Because Israeli irredentism and militarism is a massive embarrassment to western culture. Israel is a nation composed primarily of recent migrants from throughout Europe, and when this nation continually brutalizes the residents of poorer nations in the region with a vastly superior military force, it reflects badly on ALL western nations. Other local conflicts, even if they are much more deplorable (i.e. genocide and such), are more removed because they are happening outside our cultural radar, and because they rarely involve such a massive contrast in the power--political and military--of the adversaries involved. It isn't a matter of antisemitism, it's a matter of fucking shame, you ultranationalist faggot.

>>2630503
this is why
it of course ignores all the mizrahi jews (that the ashkenazis themselves shit on), but if you want to know why the western left think israel is a fucking turd, this is the reason.
israel used to be cool, the kibbutzes were making the desert bloom, then they became a prime example of the white man just doing whatever the fuck they want (landgrabs).

>>2630489

You're right. My bad.

It was all good until the last paragraph became biased.

>>2630503
Finally, an intelligent answer. I disagree but I thank you for your answer.

I consider myself somewhat neutral on the subject, I do not advocate a repeat of the genocide that happened not so long ago, but i must admit my opinions are changing, and not for the better...

If you think about it, the Israelites are a bigoted people. They acknowledge no god but their own. They consider themselves superior, to be "chosen", as is reflected in their customs and language, with terms such as "goyim" or "mensh" used to describe "lesser" peoples. There is no moral in the old testament which does not include an exclusionary clause for them, and have historically had a history of committing the crime of usury, which is to say, loaning money to people at exceedingly high interest rates and using that indebtedness to control and influence commerce and labor policy.

>>2630269
No, it's because liberals are bleeding hearts and will sympathize with the person who has less power like money and military force, because if you want to know who's being screwed over in a given situation, it's usually the person with less power. OBVIOUSLY.

In any case, you really ought to know this. Morally, and in a general sense, 'Liberalism' means you empathize with others, with others having no relation to you, rather than being desirous of your own power and that of your friends; liberals have a more feminine emotive/cognitive/moral style. Liberals therefore don't sympathize with the rich western democracy and ward of the US, but rather with those it is seen to trod upon, the poor brown people.

Seriously, most people get this. I write this without any view on the palestinian-israeli conflict. My articulation is poor, but I'm saving my brilliant metaphors this time.

>>2630263
Just because one is worse doesn't mean they're not both bad. n

>>2631498
>mensh
Mensh is from the German Mensch. 'Mensch' means a person, while 'Mensh' means a good person. 'Goy', the plural of which is 'Goyim', means 'gentile'. None of these terms have a 'lesser meaning' attached to them, but, depending on the Jew, they may be used disparagingly. You should have said that the language represented a split between the Jews and non-Jews, and used your evidence on the old testament to describe the split.

Also, there are two different definitions for the word 'usury'. Jews have historically committed the crime of the archaic definition of usury, which is charging interest on loans. I don't think they've historically done the modern definition, charging excessive interest rates, but I am unsure.

>>2631726
Although, your point on the old testament would have made little sense when you realize that a lot of Jews are atheists.

>>2631726

They still endorse the concept of 'other' and separate the rest of the world from themselves. This is not intrinsically negative, but you can see how easily it can become a negative view.

Mensch means "common man", not "good man". It is derogatory. Goyim means "foreigner" or "outsider". It is used the same way Japanese use the term "Gaijin".

Goyim does not, and can not mean "gentile", because it is used to refer to non-Christians as well as Christians. Gentile is a term reserved specifically for Christians.

Mensch is never used as a term to describe other jews. You will never hear a jewish person refer to another jewish person as a "mensch" unless they use it in a derogatory fashion, almost as a means of disparaging another jews lineage, as in, "he is nothing more than a commoner" or "common man".

If a man came up to you and said you were a sheep, you would most likely be insulted, would you not? So why do we allow these terms with "double meanings" such as a parish and his flock, to be explained away with parable when the connotations are obvious: the parish is the master and his followers are unthinking animals being led to the slaughter. The "flock" tolerates being raised for slaughter because so long as they remain with the "Shepard" they are protected and well cared for until the day they are sent to the killing floor. It is a patronizing metaphor and you would have to be a fool not to recognize it as such.

Culture of Critique and Esau's Tears, OP. Particularly the latter.

the word "mensch" is derived from ancient hebrew. The german word came about after adopting the term from jewish immigrants.

The word "goyim" is yiddish. Before its bastardization it was merchants cant used by the polish to describe someone who was gullible in business dealings with others, like a "sucker" or "chump".

Merchants cant was used by thieves, sailors, merchants and others to hide their dealings from royals who had little to no experience in trade or commerce, and was thus easily adopted by those whose business was finance or contract law.

Feudalism prevented the use of overly complex financial agreements, and to enter into one was to risk the wrath of the nobility, so merchants cant, often times referred to as "thieves cant", was used to bamboozle gullible, young, or naive nobles of minor rank or peasant status into signing non-binding trade agreements despite being semi-literate or even completely illiterate.

jews

>>2632010
Merriam-Webster says your definition of 'Mensch' that you're wrong (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mensch).). And the Joys of Yiddish defines 'Mensch' as "Someone to admire and emulate, someone of noble character. The key to being “a real mensch” is nothing less than character, rectitude, dignity, a sense of what is right, responsible, decorous." There is nothing about Jews referring only to non-Jews as 'mensch'.

>Gentile is a term reserved specifically for Christians
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gentile

You conclusion is still entirely correct, however.

>>2632059
> Before its bastardization it was merchants cant used by the polish to describe someone who was gullible in business dealings with others, like a "sucker" or "chump".
Not really. Goyim was used first in (Exodus 34:24), but the derogatory meaning came about as you said.

>>2630038
Constantine's Sword (2001, James Caroll) - provides historical context for the relationship between Jews and Christians in antiquity-analysis of relaton to islam enters midway. Anyhow, its a study of the systematic dehumanized of the Jews, oppressive theologies 'authenticating' these claims and relevance to religion-politics today. Something of a landmark work as he explains so simply - we know what happens when Christians insist on stepping beyond any historical narrative nd blame Jews for the crucifixion- we call it the holocaust

First section of Arendt's "Origins of Totalitarianism" is an excellent analysis of the origins of distinctly modern anti-semitism. So read that.

If you feel like fiction, try The Slave by Isaac Bashevis Singer-