/lit/ - Literature

It's part of history. It would be unrealistic if Anne Rice portrayed Louis as seeing his slaves as intelligent human beings before his metamorphosis. Only after he was a vampire was he able to subjectively analyze their natural intelligence and social construct.

The racism portrayed simply makes the novel realistic and allows the reader to understand the perspective.

Slavery happened, it was real. Sugar coating it isn't doing anyone a favor. People use the word Nigger in real life.

>>2615525
Writers are pretty liberal, even back then. I can't recall any major racism in major literary works. The use of "nigger" in huckleberry fin was used to show character and I'm sure Twain would have done it again even now.

I take it under consideration, in light of context. It will not automatically lead me to rule out a story, although I understand why it might for some, but it will in general make me think less of a story - that is to say, I will usually regard it as a demerit for a story, in the same way in which an unrealistic plot turn or a flat character might be regarded as a demerit, without necessarily providing a reason to dismiss the story entirely.

>>2615525
Uh, shrug it off.
Nobody's perfect and everyone couldn't've been a glorious model of equality.
>inb4 200 posts and 2 image replies omitted
>inb4 stormfront

It makes most historical novels more interesting for me.

What do you mean 'otherwise'? Since when does the presence of unpleasant elements in a work decrease their quality? Lolita is no less great because HH is a pedo, for example.

I consider it a failure of the author if it can be construed that way, unless it was just a failure of the character. The only example I can think of for the latter though is Huck Finn, the former is much more prevalent.

>>2615525
I shrug it off as how things were back then.
Who knows, maybe someday owning pets will be looked at as having been as bad a slavery. That shouldn't make Marley & Me a bad book.

>>2615547

?

>everyone who existed before the late 1960s was EVIL and STUPID

you guys are so retarded.

It's not bothersome to me in historical stories, but it can easily pull me out of speculative fiction. Like in John W. Campbell's "Twilight" (1934), when a visitor from a thousand years in the future says that savages produce the best music, giving modern negroes as an example.

>>2615557
I have a cat and I like my cat. A lot. She's a great cat. But I love my dog.
So to me... not as bad as a dog eating president.

OP here. I didn't make it as clear as I meant to: I was referring to examples of the author demonstrating bigotry rather than characters in the story. So, for example, several of H.P. Lovecraft's stories are blatantly racist; Mark Twain's aren't.

>>2615578

In this case, it is far less savory when the author clearly has a racist undertone to his writing.

Demonstrating characters who are racist is part of /lit and only natural

Thank you for your clarification, OP is less of a moron

I judge the character and narrator based on the views they express within a work of fiction. If the work as a whole seems to condone or promote intolerant or outdated views then I choose not to incorporate the message into my belief structure.

>>2615565
yeah John Campbell was just kind of a terrible human being, though. fuck that guy.

Oh no I can't read any classics because all pre-modern societies practiced slavery, serfdom, and religious extremism in some form!

Might as well not read something because the guy who wrote it hated a food you like.

Books and racism are analogous to life.

I'm not crazy about jews. I'd still have sex with one if she was interesting enough

If message the book is trying to deliver is something that goes against my morals of course I dont like it but it doesnt mean I wouldnt be able to appreciate book itself if its very well written. Of course its harder to be objective when emotions are involved but it doesent stop me from trying.

>>2615633
one of the more intelligent things ever written on 4chan

>>2615643
seriously?

did you just get here

telling a story from a bigoted position without a good reason for it can't be otherwise good. like reading shit from a klansman who knows how to write well? give me a break.

anyways i was reluctant in loaning some flannery o'connor to a black coworker of mine. i felt like an idiot. i should just share whatever with whomever if i think they're open-minded enough to try shit out.

>>2615525
>How do you react to racism, sexism, etc., in old stories that are otherwise good?
>otherwise

I savour that shit. It's political correctness that I abhor. Not because I'm necessarily a racist myself, but I like racism and I wouldn't oppose racist policies. It adds a certain spice to life. It makes my inner misanthrope happy that at least a part of the population isn't treated as snowflakes.

>>2615525
>does it lower your regard of the story
Yes.
In the whole history of mankind, there were never excuses for hating arbitrary groups of people for no reason.


>>2615693
> Not because I'm necessarily a racist myself, but I like racism
Holy shit, I lol'd. Look at this guy. Be it the XXI century of 1 A.D., it's lack of intelligence, knowledge and experience in interacting with other people that leads to this and nothing else.

>>2615693
>at least a part of the population isn't treated as snowflakes
Nobody ever treated you as a snowflake, that much is obvious.

>>2615693
>Not because I'm necessarily a racist myself, but I like racism and I wouldn't oppose racist policies.
>adds a certain spice to life.
>makes my inner misanthrope happy that at least a part of the population isn't treated as snowflakes.

you're fucking retarded. every numbskull thinks like you until they're on the shit end of the stick.

babies like structure to help them grow.

children and teens who discover their individuality enjoy chaos if trying to define their own rules.

most adults enjoy structure. i'd explain it to you but it takes too long when you're talking to children.

>>2615666

>telling a story from a bigoted position without a good reason for it can't be otherwise good. like reading shit from a klansman who knows how to write well? give me a break.

I have always been more interested of people with who I disagree with. As an atheist I love reading stuff of people like William Lane Craig and find Dawkins just boring. Circle jerking is fun but it doesnt teach you anything.

There is no honor in battle if you dont respect your enemy.

>>2615734
there are more good books than you'll get to read in a lifetime. i agree that different sides ought to be understood. if it's a klansman writing about something accessible that nonracistfags can enjoy then fine. otherwise why would i bother? the treatment is always an affirmation on previously held biases. there is nothing to learn from that.

>>2615744
example

>be racist
>try to give up racism
>in the process find out your racism was justified all along

yeah, sounds fascinating.

>mfw the same people who believe in tolerance and understanding of non-western values despise archaic western values.

I think people need to learn how to tolerate racism.

>archaic western values

What are these? Tolerance and understanding have been values of western culture for last 2-3k years.

>>2615753
>hurrr why are you prejudiced against racists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

>>2615753

>thinks geographies have values

>>2615693
this is amazing

ly dumb. Are you 14? "I'm not a racist but I support racism"? So, you are a racist, but you don't want to feel bad and admit it?

>>2615770
>>2615753
>>2615693

>>2615781
You're really bad at spotting samefags.

Just because three separate people hold views that differ from yours doesn't mean they're all the same person. It's actually incredibly funny that you would try to lump people into one generalization because you don't like/agree with them... sure sounds a lot like discrimination and bigotry.

Liberals tend to ignore facts they don't like, it's amazing how disconnected from reality they are.

>>2615781
This is just like racism. Just because three people have three different views doesn't meant they're the same person.

>>2615780
It's called supporting Freedom of Speech and Expression.

I'm not racist, but I support my fellow man's right to hold racist views. Maybe liberals are in a hurry to piss away our collective rights and freedoms to help minorities out, but I sure as fucking hell am not.

>>2615794
>multiculturalism

>>2615799
Don't blame me for your mistake. I 'support' racism too insomuch that I tolerate it and the speaker's ability to say what they want. 'to support' a view generally means that you agree with it, or it at least implies it.

>>2615781
This post actually canonizes exactly why people hate political correctness. They generalize and stereotype people who hold different views on racism, sexism, and homosexuality into one giant category and claim that they're all nazis.

It's actually beyond retarded the amount of people who act like this and don't even realize it.

>typical liberal family

>>2615801
I'm not the same poster you were talking to. I'm merely pointing out that supporting someones right to have an opinion doesn't mean you agree with the opinion.

>>2615802
>>2615799
>>2615797
>>2615793
Stop samefagging, you're just embarrassing yourself.

>>2615799
no one is stepping on your toes. they're just making sure that different colored toes aren't being stepped on while protecting yours.

anyways i have a feel where this thread is going.

SIGH

>>2615806
Saying 'I like X' generally means 'I agree with X'.

>>2615811
Notice how this liberal fails to address facts that disagree with his multicultural agenda (>>2615794)

>>2615807
Look at the post times you stupid fuck.

Are you seriously this retarded?

Is your head shoved so far up your ass that you can't tell up from down anymore? Wake up and smell the coffee, kid... most people disagree with your brain dead view of racism.

>>2615807
The post times are entirely different you liberal liar.

>>2615815
>most people disagree with your brain dead view of racism
>most people
Here we fucking go.

>>2615812
That's nice.

There's one person in this thread who said they "like" racism. The rest are simply pointing out that they aren't for or against racism.

>>2615815
>>2615816
>samefagging in response to being accused of samefagging

The facts are rather clear inre. cross-populations variation in crime etc. Whether that is 'racism' or not, i don't care. I care about facts.

>>2615803
>A strawman argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

are you trying to make me sad again

If the intent seems truly racist, I will hold it against the book, but certain conventions may not have been racist but are now, and I have no problem with that.

Sexism doesn't bother me as much as it should.

>>2615781
>>2615807
>>2615821
The cognitive dissonance in this one is strong.

He really doesn't want his liberal ideology to implode, does he? Just laying on the delusions to keep shit together at this point.

THEY'RE ALL NAZIS! EVERY SINGLE ON OF THEM... THEY'RE NOT JUST NAZIS, THEY'RE HITLER! THEY'RE ALL HITLER. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME IS ADOLF HITLER!!!!!!!

>>2615821
>implying we're the same guy
Nice try, liberal scum. We're not a bunch of hitlers here.

>>2615824
The post you are referring to isn't even involved in an argument. It's a stand alone post making an idle joke about liberals. Can't strawman if you aren't in an argument with anyone.

Why are you so desperate to defend liberals? Do you inherently believe that anyone arguing on the opposite site of multiculturalism is wrong? Maybe you should rethink your own values and beliefs.

>>2615836
How is that post a 'joke'? Not him, but it's not funny and there's no punchline. The image isn't even spoilered.

Side note: We really do need a /com/. No one's funny on 4chan anymore, ever.

Racism is not opinion, its ideology. Its ideology that says some people are less worthy than others just because they happened to have wrong kind of parents.

>>2615845
Does reality make you upset?

>>2615852

Where is the mod and why hasn't s/he banned the stormie?

>>2615852
No.
Are there even resources to build castles like that in Africa? Pretty much everything's going to come out like a mud-hut or worse. Anyway, this is from http://everythingspossible.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/timbuktu-city-of-333-saints/, explained as an example of Songhai architecture.

Hohoho, so much straw in this thread.
For the record, I inb4'd >>2615539.
Well, whatever.

>>2615847
Desirable human traits are partly heritable. So, technically, it does matter who the parents were, at least probabilistically. It is possible for dumb parents with bad morals to have clever, and ethical children due to mutations and random beneficial mixing of genes.

>>2615854
>>2615852
>the romans had sewer systems, therefore white people are superior to other "races"

You're an idiot.

>>2615836
he said it was the typical liberal family.

it's an extreme exaggeration he's set up to make a point.

he's making a point about an exaggerated opposing view.

it's a strawman he's set up for himself. if you still can't see where i'm coming from then forget my post and move on.

>>2615813
it doesn't matter. the social order should not be organized by how many people of whatever color committed crimes. it should be rooted in the intellectual and ethical. i thought modernity had us respecting and laying blame on individuals. not groups of skin color.

>>2615852
If wikipedia can be trusted,
>The fourth century structure was left in ruins by the Franks and rebuilt. Normans destroyed the structure again in 882. Under Bishop Egbert the Dom was restored once more.

And even if it's not, there's no way it was made that early.

If you're gonna do it, at least do it right.

>>2615862
Ethics aren't heritable, dumbass

>>2615857
>Are there even resources to build castles like that in Africa

PffftHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Africa has plenty of natural resources, there's really no excuse for them to still be living in huts. I'm waiting for you to blame white people somehow.

>>2615863
>liberals in charge of drawing conclusions

You're kidding right? Point is white people had advanced civilizations while blacks lived in straw huts and shit in pots.

>>2615867
God damn, I'm fucking psychic. I knew you liberals were going to find some way to blame white people. You simply can't admit that Africa is a shithole because blacks are inferior.

>>2615865
So you agree that they objectively are much more likely to commit violent crime? Why should we pretend they are equal then?

>>2615869
>Africa has plenty of natural resources
Like the stone required for a castle? Africa's natural resources are diamonds, gold, iron, cobalt, uranium, copper, bauxite, silver, petroleum, say wikipedia. Last time I checked, it's fairly hard to make a castle out of cobalt.

i'm amazed people still engage stormfags

>>2615867
Just like at Africa today. Western civilization flourishes while the blacks swallow cow menstrual blood for sustenance.

>that feel when racists will never again have a valid voice in public discourse, barring the complete collapse of civilization
>that feel when they have to go to 4chan or stormfront to make themselves feel better
>that feel when you have wonderful relationships with people of different ethnic, geographic, and linguistic backgrounds
>that feel when you will die having lived a fairly decent life without having made yourself a slave to history's most ridiculous sociological lie

>>2615872
No one is saying Africa is a shithole because of the Franks. He is saying that your argument "Africa has less aesthetically pleasing structures that are worse than Europe, therefore, Africans are inferior" was false.

I guess you're being ironical or something, but it's not funny. The only people that'd think it is are children.

>>2615869
Are you fucking dense? That building is in Mali (and it's a great architectural masterpiece, fuckface).
Africa is living in huts NOW. It didn't before, and if you honestly think Europeans aren't to blame the state Africa/India is at the moment, you are very fucking stupid.

Die in a fire already.

>>2615879
>Africa has less aesthetically pleasing structures than Europe
Sorry, started drinking.

>>2615874
Are you kidding me? You know there is such a thing as trade right? The thing where you trade your abundant resources for things you lack?

It's what every civilized(not black) country has done throughout history.

>>2615874

Those are its modern commodities. Not many people care enough to export big rocks these days.

>>2615875
Not everybody that thinks that there are differences between human populations are neonazis. Indeed, most researchers that think so agree that ashkenazi jews are the smartest population group around. Rather difficult to mix with nazism.

>>2615880
>if white people fuck up it's their own fault
>if a black person fucks up it's because of white people

>>2615879
Fact: Africans live in huts and drink cow menstrual blood

How can you pretend we are all equal? So much delusion, it's sad.

>>2615885
who said anything about nazis?

>>2615872
>Blaming White people

I was talking about the Trier Dom not the African building.

I'm not an expert, but I don't think late Roman architecture looked like that.

What makes me most upset is the thought that this stormfag posts here all the time, and he has regular opinions on eveything else we talk about.

So do you report this fucktard as rule violation or spam?

>>2615891
Majority white countries are significantly better than majority black countries in almost every way.

Agree or disagree?

>>2615884
So, you're saying that there are in fact a lot of rocks in Africa? Can you find data to support this? I can't find any data against it, so it should be easy.

>>2615887
Stop moving the goalposts.

>>2615889
>Africans live in huts and drink cow blood
>therefore descendents of Africans are less than us
Look up "Great Stink" and get back to me. In fact, just look at the entire Victorian era and get back to me. We seemed to turn out alright despite that.

>>2615869

You are incorrect. I will show you how. You ought to read Guns, Germs and Steel, but I'll give you the immediate gist of it for your convenience.

Africans lacked an advantage that early Middle-Easterners benefited from: Cereal grains. African crops were difficult to grow, with small yields and poor "shelf life" (to use a crude term). In fact, they still suffer with these issues. They had no animals that could be domesticated that could pull a plow, or even graze in fields and be slaughtered or milked. Unlike early Middle-Eastern animals; African animals had evolved to be wary, timid, and rather unruly due to the presence of large predators surrounding them; and thus they were difficult to domesticate. So without cereal grains to grow, or animals to put to work and slaughter, Africans were forced to maintain a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, limiting the development of specialists in Africa. Middle-Easterners did not have these problems, so many of their people could sit and think and develop technology all day, or invent writing and mathematics.

Soon, due to climate conditions, those Middle-Easterners migrated and brought their animals (there are around 14 animals that can be truly domesticated, and 13 out of those 14 originated in the Middle East) and their crops (cereal grains, easy to plant and harvest, with lots of protein) to Europe and Northern Africa. The North Africans prospered with these crops and animals, but Southern Africans continued to live their primitive lives out of necessity.

Now please be racist elsewhere, because you are very much outclassed in this discussion.

>>2615895
Are you being serious? I can't tell. Blacks in Africa still live in huts and drink cow menstrual blood.

Africa is objectively worse than every majority white nation in every way.

>>2615872
no. i would say income level has more to do with crime. and we're all equal because i don't believe in making excuses for my own shortcomings. i may be liberal but i still believe in hard work and honesty. just because one person is honest i shouldn't assume everyone with his skin color is honest. and the same goes for being a liar.

but the discussion is over, dude. we both know the other person's position clearly. neither one of us will change any minds.

>>2615899
Africa is bad. That does not mean Africans are (necessarily) bad.

>>2615896
>durrr the ONE place where blacks are the majority also happens to be the one place where civilization is impossible

>>2615903
>that argument
Fresh from /v/, I see? Not even that guy, but you can screw off.

>>2615903

I gave you examples, you walked into a discussion empty-handed. The burden of proof is no longer mine.

>>2615903
you're clearly a civilized person.

*rolls eyes*

>>2615887
Who is stereotyping here?
Stop pulling shit out of your ass. Africa's modern state is historically because of what European powers have done in the continent. These are historical facts, whether you agree with it or not.
I'm not blaming 'white people', I'm blaming the actions of Western civilisations at the time.
You are the one in wrong, for blaming 'black people' in general, for every misfortune that their people went through historically. It's like blaming the Belgian for suffering in WWI - since they didn't have enough power to stop Germany without going through major losses, it must be because they are inferior to the Germans!

>>2615901
But they are, as a group. And national wealth is remarkably predictable based on group IQ. See various papers and books by Richard Lynn.

>>2615904
>>2615906
>>2615907
>B-But it's true!! It's just a coincidence that the one place inhabited by mainly blacks is a shithole where civilization is impossible! T-That's why it's so bad! Not because of the people, honest!

>>2615912
You're not even trying anymore. Troll me harder, damnit.

>people still believe blacks and women are equal to the rest of the world

I'm waiting for liberals to claim science is racist.

>>2615912

Well then let's get some refuting evidence! I am perfectly happy to discuss this with you, despite your prejudice. I will put political correctness and moral judgements aside in order to argue my point, but first you will have to engage in the discussion. This will be enjoyable. Let's get to it.

Why did we even have this thread. We knew how it was going to end from the beginning, WE KNEW.

>>2615910
correlation != causation. If you don't have decent nutrition, of course your IQ is going to be lower. In any case IQ is a stupid measurement of a person's worth, as is skin colour.

>>2615915
I highly doubt any European would accept the 'fact' that Orientals are smarter than them.

If you knew some science, you'd know correlation =/= causation.
Just because more black people happen to have lower IQ (which is a very inaccurate measure of intelligence) does not mean it is because they are black. Same with crime levels et al.

>>2615919
I agree, I think a better measure of worth would be productivity, or propensity to commit crime, or earning power.

>>2615915
"Barash (1995) criticised Rushton's use of data without taking socio-economic variables into account. "[Rushton] points to the higher frequency of low birth weight babies among black Americans, data that are undeniably consistent with an r-selection regime, but which might also be attributed to poor nutrition and insufficient prenatal care, and which, not coincidentally, have other implications for behaviour, IQ not the least."

That was hard. At least try this in real life where people don't have constant access to the largest database of criticisms ever.

>>2615917
it's pretty obvious by now that stormfags post bait threads for themselves.

>>2615919
>if an all black nation is shit, it's because of the resources
>if scientific evidence proves they have lower IQ, then that evidence doesn't prove anything
>if crime statistics say that blacks are 2.3 times as likely to commit a crime, it's because whites are racist

I can't take you people seriously.

>>2615923
I don't think you need to "accept" it.

>>2615924
None of those are any good either. You really don't get how society goes together do you?

>>2615929
>look everyone i can strawman on internet
stop.

>>2615915

>IQ tests
>scientific
>willfully ignores that every field of scientific study from the hard to the soft have show time and again that racism in all of its forms is bullshit


persistent troll is persistent

>>2615932
It's not a strawman, literally all those things have been said in this thread. Learn to read champ.

>>2615931
lyl

anybody can sit and shoot down suggestions without making their own.

How about you suggest some measures of human worth that administrators and government might use?

>b-but we're all equal!

>>2615936
>How about you suggest some measures of human worth that administrators and government might use?

No, you fascist.

>>2615934
I'm not your champ, buddy.
Also, I can see 1. Which makes sense, it comes from Guns, Germs, and Steel, an award-winning book from an author with clot. You'll have to prove that point wrong instead of greentexting and reaction image. Can you point out 2 and 3 for me?

>>2615933
>only studies I agree with are valid

>>2615941
>he doesn't believe in grades or rankings

>>2615929

>if an all black nation is shit, it's because of the resources
Africa had it own high cultures (long before humans moved to anywhere else) that perished due changes in environment

>if scientific evidence proves they have lower IQ, then that evidence doesn't prove anything
There is no evidence of this

>if crime statistics say that blacks are 2.3 times as likely to commit a crime, it's because whites are racist
How retarded are you exactly?

>>2615936
How about - they can't?
People aren't equal - race has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't want a dumb-fuck fascist like you to be considered my equal, not in this world, not in another.
(How about you read up on individualism?)

>>2615923
>I highly doubt any European would accept the 'fact' that Orientals are smarter than them.

This is a commonly accepted fact in the intelligence research community. Most of the members are white. It is also commonly known that ashkenazi jews are even smarter than east asians.

Ur culture only theory is just wrong.

>>2615706
How is it a lack of intelligence to like seeing people opposed to each other and running around and fucking shit up and creating drama? If anything, it's a godlike way to spend your time. I think racism is entertaining. I don't hate people of other races because of their race.

>>2615710
Many did and still do.

>>2615731
I'm not a golden rule type of guy. Saying that I wouldn't like being discriminated against isn't a compelling argument for me to stop enjoying other people ruining each others shit. I like structure too, but I also like a little chaos. Too much of one or the other and life becomes unbearable.

>>2615780
How about I'm not a scientist but I support science? I'm not a New York Yankee but I support the Yankees? I'm not a woman but I support feminism? I'm not a panda but I support animal rights? All perfectly possible.

Not that it matters, because I said I liked racism and wouldn't oppose it. This is a different thing than supporting it. I enjoy little lambs playing in the field too and someone who tries to stimulate this wouldn't have to be afraid of my opposition either. I thought this all to be fairly comprehensible.

>>2615915

First, J. Philippe Rushton is a psychology professor with no understanding of history or geography--huge factors in his argument, which he has failed to acknowledge--or, apparently, the nature of IQ tests. More on that later.

I will not claim that "science" is racist, because I don't have to. He is widely criticized by the vast majority of scientists who know of him. Only a small minority of people in the world believe that he is a legitimate scientist. He also receives funding from a notoriously racist organization, the Pioneer Fund, which was racist before legitimate race science came to it. Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2005/winter/into-the-mai
nstream

Thirdly, IQ tests are developed for a specific demographic. If you raised a group of Africans to value education and school, they would perform quite well, which is why Asian race groups perform well. If you scoffed at what I just said, you might be shocked to learn that immigrated African students regularly out-perform other racial groups in American universities. Source:

http://africanmetronews.com/?p=1143
IQ tests is a rather anemic measure of intelligence, and IQ is held to almost no regard by most psychologists. Source:

http://iq-test.learninginfo.org/iq02.htm

It may interest you to know that social conservatives, such as yourself (you exhibit qualities of exclusion and nationalism of a kind, tenants of social conservative theory) regularly score lower on IQ tests than most liberals. There are many socially conservative geniuses in society, and I would not say that social conservatives are "dumber" than liberals, because IQ means very little. Source, though they put too much faith in IQ tests as well:

http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

>>2615947
>individualism means you can't qualitatively rank humans and sort them efficiently into categories in order to better utilize their manpower

The army, the government, and the schooling systems of all the nations of this world would like to have a word with you.

>blacks are inferior to whites because they are less intelligent
>jews and asians are not inferior to me because...uerr...JEWS!

Can't wait to see point 2.

>>2615950
Then it makes perfect sense that they all love Middle-Eastern immigrants in Europe and welcome them without ever complaining about increasing immigration and mixing of cultures!

>>2615925
The IQ differences do not disappear if one corrects for SES data. This is common knowledge among everyone has studied the field (psychometrics).

But if one wants to map the world IQ (as Lynn does), then one shud not correct for SES.

>>2615957
Pretty much everything that u mention is just wrong. I'm not even a social conservative.

In the second link, u mention that they published some rebuttals as well. I have read all the papers. The rebuttals are notoriously weak on data. They also published some papers that were supportive of Jensen and Rushton's target article.
Reading the critical papers made me more certain that Rushton and Jensen are correct.

>science says black people are stupid compared to whites so they should have no human rights
>same science says whites are stupid compared to asians ans jews so.....?

>>2615957
>Thirdly, IQ tests are developed for a specific demographic. If you raised a group of Africans to value education and school, they would perform quite well, which is why Asian race groups perform well. If you scoffed at what I just said, you might be shocked to learn that immigrated African students regularly out-perform other racial groups in American universities. Source:

TL;DR verion is: IQ tests are culturally biased.

But while some of them are (verbal ones), they are not all biased. This has been known for decades, which is why one uses non-verbal tests when testing people from other cultures (e.g. Raven's test).

>>2615964
Europeans love a chink. Work hard, don't fuck around. Sandniggers can't be equated with East Asians.

>>2615982
errrr it doesn't say they should have no human rights. It simply states that they're less intelligent.

>It may interest you to know that social conservatives, such as yourself (you exhibit qualities of exclusion and nationalism of a kind, tenants of social conservative theory) regularly score lower on IQ tests than most liberals. There are many socially conservative geniuses in society, and I would not say that social conservatives are "dumber" than liberals, because IQ means very little. Source, though they put too much faith in IQ tests as well:

Ok, but it is just false that IQ means very little. Intelligence matters alot. For an introduction see e.g.:

http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2002notamystery.pdf

>>2615978

You cannot even write an English sentence, and you expect me to believe that you have read "all" rebuttals of Rushton's work?

>>2615960

Are you denying that those institutions limit our individuality? I would say that the army, government, and public schooling systems are the most significant threats to our individuality that have ever existed in this country. Of course, a balance must be struck, and I'm not a libertarian, God forbid. Before you call me a liberal anarchist adolescent, I believe that all of those institutions are beneficial to us, but I am aware that they can be extended beyond their purpose, and that at that point they became harmful. Categorizing people based on race is a futile exercise, because there are so many people who break racial stereotypes quite regularly.

>>2616010
I can write an english sentence just fine, thanks. The nonstandard spellings are on purpose. Duh.

I posted the rebuttals here. They are quite weak. Just read them urself.
http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=2663

>>2615985

They are all biased. You cannot test "intelligence" without including cultural and geographic factors, which all IQ tests fail to take into account.

>>2615992

But if you accept that social conservatives are less intelligent, then what you're saying is that almost everyone who claims that IQ tests are good measures of intelligence are themselves unintelligent, so why should we trust their flawed logic? IQ does not measure intelligence, in the same way that SAT's or ACT's do not measure intelligence.

>>2616018
Are you the same guy who used to post phonetic? If so I love you.

If not I still appreciate you.

>>2616010
Listen, you can intellectualize all you want, you pantyhose faggot, but the fact remains that you are talking about what's good for society, and at the same time arguing against government and the military and the schools. Fuck off. Seriously, you libertarian piece of shit. I'm tired of critiques of the army and schools, coming from idiotas whose liberties and economic interests are protected and extended by the armed forces, and whose words are given to them by a nanny state schooling system enforced by their government. Don't bite the hand that feeds.

>>2615951
confirmed for teenage. when you'll grow up you'll get over your angsty shit and become a utilitarian like most cultured people

>>2615989

People here are implying its justified to mistreat individuals of lesser intelligence and say phenotype is enough to determine how smart people are.

>>2616018

I only see a handful. There are hundreds. You have a pitiful minority of the worst of them on your webpage.

>>2616032
That's what people here are saying. Don't confuse them with the scientists.

This thread has become a complete train wreck.

>>2616031
>utilitarian

Fucking 'ew. I think perhaps you've misunderstood what 'cultured' means.

>>2616026

I am not talking about what is good for society. I sought to clear up any potentially derailing misunderstandings about my political stance.

If you were referring to my position on race, then you're incorrect. I have not yet used a moral argument--Rather, I have been refuting "examples" and "evidence" that my opposition has presented to me. You want to defend yourself from moral judgement, but you needn't. My point is simple: You are logically and intellectually flawed. I could not care less about your moral character. Try a more relevant and educated argument next time.

My words were given to me by no public institution. I am privately-educated, and I have always written and read well above the natural average for skills in those areas. I have demonstrably risen above what the government and the military believe are appropriate for my age (currently, I'm in college) and economic class. This nation's standards are too low for me.

Direct your eyes to my image. That is why I harbor a minor distrust of the government. I will cooperate out of compassion for my fellow man, humility, and pride in my country; but I will always remember that powerful institutions are not to be trusted. It may interest you that I am in favor of greatly augmented social programs in this country. I believe that healthcare coverage should be publicly provided and college tuition should be subsidized.

>>2616041
>implying greatest happiness for everyone isn't the nobelest of goals

>>2616056
You go to college. That's a public institution. Even private schools are given breaks by the government.

Also,

>herp de derp Bush and da jews new world order bush did 911

Grow up.

>>2616058

Greatest happiness is that of an individual.

>>2616058
a) define 'nobelest', b) explain why nobility is desirable, c) explain how wanting happiness for everyone is noble (c.1: define and construct a system for measuring happiness)

Utilitarianism is the Vonnegut of philosophy. It appeals to simpletons who become way too attached to it for no good reason.

>>2616075
a)most refined, sagely
b)in order to develop as mankind
c)it overcomes problems of groupthink and egoism
c1)in the beginning this can start with basic needs. bottom of maslows hierarchy and work up from there

>>2616066

Read my post again. I put my life in the government's hands, and partly out of humility. You have a serious issue in reading comprehension and recognizing subtle implications, as indicated by your misreading my post and your failure to understand the point of my image. I don't believe "the Jews" (as if they are a perfectly unified conspiracy group) have done anything. I believe that we give Israel millions of dollars a year to murder Palestinians and destroy their homes. I believe that our country is regularly hijacked by religious men. I do not, however, believe that religious men should barred from public service, as some extremist
atheists propose. I just think that we as a society should learn to be skeptical and to not accept military or social exercises by the government for religious purposes.

>>2616056
>My words were given to me by no public institution. I am privately-educated, and I have always written and read well above the natural average for skills in those areas.
Oh, look, a trust fund baby who bemoans inequality to the point that he believes that humans shouldn't even have the power to assign ranks amongst themselves. Now THAT, is funny.

If I was sober I'm not sure I'd be enjoying this thread as much as I am.

>>2616085
>a)most refined, sagely

If it's just that then why is it relevant to the discussion?

>b)in order to develop as mankind
>assuming that's axiomatically desirable

This is philosophy, not debate club, why do you assume that is desirable or necessary?

>c)it overcomes problems of groupthink and egoism

How are those problems? Why do they need to be overcome? How would happiness solve groupthink?

>>2616024
>They are all biased. You cannot test "intelligence" without including cultural and geographic factors, which all IQ tests fail to take into account.

This is just false. Culture fair IQ tests have been around for decades. One can test a test to see if it is biased or not. A lot of work has been done on this and it was generally found that the tests are not biased.

>But if you accept that social conservatives are less intelligent, then what you're saying is that almost everyone who claims that IQ tests are good measures of intelligence are themselves unintelligent, so why should we trust their flawed logic?

That does not follow. It does not follow from that one group is on average lesser intelligent than another group to that almost all members of the lower-intelligence group are 'unintelligent'.

>IQ does not measure intelligence, in the same way that SAT's or ACT's do not measure intelligence.

Of course they do. That's why we made them. We wanted tests to measure intellingece so we created some and tested them (for validity and reliability). School aptitude tests such as the ones u mention are rather good measures of intelligence. That's why they are good at predicting school outcomes.

>>2616025
>Are you the same guy who used to post phonetic? If so I love you.

Same guy.

>>2616032
>People here are implying its justified to mistreat individuals of lesser intelligence and say phenotype is enough to determine how smart people are.

I have implied no such thing. I'm a firm supporter equal rights for everybody and against discrimination (like affirmative action).

>>2616098
nevermind, you're to much of a teenager. if the basics of morality aren't readily apparent to you than you have a lot of growing to do.

>>2616033
>I only see a handful. There are hundreds. You have a pitiful minority of the worst of them on your webpage.

No, those i have posted there are all the rebuttals from the relevant issue of the journal. Look for urself if u doubt my word. I also posted them in chronological order.

Jensen and Rushton are spot on in their last article. More data, less moralizing is what is needed.

>>2616107
Typical utilitarian. Their only defense is that they're 'obviously right.'

>>2615811
>anyways i have a feel where this thread is going.

i knew it and i called it. but i guess anyone could've seen this shit coming.

Something tells me this thread is going to have a happy ending.
I see a group hug comming.

>>2616139

>>2616139
>>2616152
>samefag trying to keep the thread alive

>>2616155
>libertarian pantyhose man trying desperately to forget how badly he was owned

Best thread on /lit/ since ages.

Any Satanists around?

>>2616155
I'm a different fag. But I'm not going to pass out for another 10 minutes if anyone wants to bloviate some more.

>>2616160
No but I have a foot fetish.

>>2616166
Will do. Does the sharp contrast in skin color on a black woman's foot do anything for you? It's basicallt two-tone.

>>2616166
sup

>>2616169
I'm not a huge fan, but then black women don't seem to take very good care of their feet in the first place.

op you cunning bastard you meant for this to happen didn't you.

honestly you guys are looking into this too much
look. here's my overly simple view point

white women and Asian women are the most beautiful therefore whites and Asians are confirmed for co-master race.

what do you think?

>>2616173
But white men are more beautiful than Asian men, so:

1. Northern/Western European
2. North-east Asian
3, All the other shit

>>2616170
Let's get together baby.

>>2616176
you can destroy my cunt any day.

too bad i don't have one?

>>2616181
But maybe I do?

>>2616181
i love my typo, best mistake I've ever made!

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I knew this thread would have a happy ending. It's finally turned into an intelligent discussion.

>>2616187
well that's hardly going to help how are you meant to ravage my vagina if
1) i don't have a vagina ready to get destroyed.
2) you don't have a dick to do the destroying.

honestly it would be like going to a donkey show without an ass.

>>2616207
That's way too metaphysical for me.
Let's just dance!

>>2616212
move yo body guurl

guys.

still no satanists? :(

I'm a racist, fascist, sexist, misogynistic, cold, narccastic motherufucker.

/thread

>>2616227
sorry but i don't think satanists can dance.
unless you can prove me wrong, no satanists!

>>2616242
i forgot my picture how embarrassing

>>2616242
We practically invented it. Pic related.

>>2616232

Nope, you're just an edgy teenager[/spoil].

>>2616253
>dat mid-spoiler stroke

>>2616173
Jews are rather pretty as well.

Actually i don't know how beauty works cross-population. Are there really different averages of beauty between populations, or is it just an observer effect? I dunno.

One hypothesis is that it is a matter of intelligence. Intelligence and attractiveness correlate non-trivially, and we know that there are genetic differences in intelligence between populations. If this hypothesis is correct, then on average ashkenazi jews, east asians, whites, etc. shud be the rankings for beauty, in falling order.

>>2616232
you want to fuck your mother?
Yuck!

>>2616252
I've never been this happy when proven wrong before.

keep that groove going lads!

>>2616284
Will do.

>>2616275
you raise some interesting points but the times have changed.the age of hypothesis is over but rejoice anon for in its place a new age has taken form
The Age Of Dance!

Great Civilization: The Middle East and Saharan Africa
Faith: Sunni and Shia Islam (Abrahamic)

Great Civilization: Europe
Faith: Catholicism (Abrahamic)

Great Civilization: North America
Faith: Protestantism (Abrahamic)

Failed Civilization: USSR
Faith: Militant Atheism

Failed Civilization: India
Faith: Hinduism (Polytheistic)

Failed Civilization: Japan
Faith: Shinto (Polytheistic)

Failed Civilization: Subsaharan Africa
Faith: Vodun (Polytheistic)

It's not race or gender that stifles you, it's not believing in the God of Abraham.

i just realized we're not dancing to any music!
we must look like draft fools.
>>2616291
satanist your full of surprises tonight do you happen to know any music we could dance to?

>>2616329
Ahem!

>>2616330
Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zelCvIl2isI&feature=related

>>2616350
great the music gets start just as i'm about to leave!

as much as i want to stay i must go for my planet needs me!
i shall leave you with this image that expresses how i feel towards each and everyone of you


farewell ladies and gentlemen,
i love you all.

>>2616364
I'm going to do a quick offering to the dark lord and be off to bed too.

Peace and love

>>2615929
What do you mena, "you people"?

>>2616770
What do you mean, "mena"?

>>2615525
i try to adopt that racism for the remainder of the book

>>2615896
/thread

>>2615896

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's disproved popular trash:

In a review of Guns, Germs, and Steel that ultimately commended the book, historian Professor Tom Tomlinson wrote that, "Given the magnitude of the task he has set himself, it is inevitable that Professor Diamond uses very broad brush-strokes to fill in his argument," but regarded Diamond's sketchy coverage of social, political and intellectual history (a handful of pages), especially in the last 500 years, as a notable weakness. He stated that Diamond's approach ignored "much of the current literature on cultural interactions in modern history" and Diamond omitted "almost all of the standard literature on the history of imperialism and post-colonialism, world-systems, underdevelopment or socio-economic change over the last five hundred years." Tomlinson also stated that, "The European empires of conquest in Asia, especially those of the British in India and the Dutch in Java, were not based on clear technological superiority in armaments, nor on the spread of disease."[17]

>>2616874
Wut

Europe had guns

Asia did not

>>2616879
Asians had no guns?
Are you fucking retarded?

>>2615896
>implying non-African peoples weren't simply Africans who got their shit together and went on a glorious and daring adventure on the other continents
>implying it's not still the Africans fault for remaining on their shitty continent
>implying it's racist if two blacks are thirsty, one walks to the spring and one stays where he is, and you call the latter dumb.

Interesting.

NOSTALGIA